Suppressors Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

[DBohn]

Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

I'm not trying to say that everyone who had a lawyer write their trust wasted a bunch of money. I just want to know what someone has to worry about later on if they write their own and it gets approved. All I'm hearing from the guys with lawyers is, "mines more solid", "it gives me piece of mind" or "it's written with proper NFA verbage" If it requires a lawyer for proper NFA verbage how are all these improper ones getting accepted.

KYS338 said he went the lawyer route so his successor wouldn't have any trouble taking over the items. Now this sounds like a good reason to go with a lawyer. But then again who is going to cause problems for his successor if he didn't have it written by a lawyer? The ATF? Why would they deem the trust not suitable for the successor when it was fine when they accepted it in the first place?

I'm just looking for some answers before I go and throw several hundred dollars at a lawyer for something I could have done myself.

 

[RollingThunder51]

Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens


DBohn, you cannot do this yourself.

Most Trusts I see are junk. They will fail at transition and the items seized. Think of it this way and this way alone...your trust is the hull of a ship that is supposed to float great distances, through storms and errors in direction by future captains. On that ship your placing things important enough to warrant its construction.

Get thee to a lawyer.

 

[bb24fu]

Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

If anyone has a recommendation for a lawyer that is experienced in these laws and trusts, please PM me.

 

[timelinex]

Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

So is the only problem with a poorly written trust that when you die your beneficiary might have a hard time acquiring the NFA item or might end up not being able to get it? If so, that really doesn't sound like a problem at all! Out of all my possessions, the can would be the LAST thing I would be worried about.

 

[Killer Spade 13]

Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

So, when putting your trust together, what do you list as the property to be transfered?

You don't own the suppressor yet, so do you just put down some item and then amend the trust once you recieve your approval?

 

[raider1v1]

Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Killer Spade 13</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So, when putting your trust together, what do you list as the property to be transfered?

You don't own the suppressor yet, so do you just put down some item and then amend the trust once you recieve your approval? </div></div>

mine says the trust is holding, or will hold and it lists the model and sn# of the cans that i have on the way.

 

[Killer Spade 13]

Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

How can you know the serial number of the suppressor if you've yet to purchase it. Is a specific suppressor put on hold for you until such time your application is approved?

 

[netranger6]

Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

You purchase the item via SOT to transfer into trust. If he/she has in stock, you know the serial already. IF not, once it arrives, you will know the serial then. And you will need it on the FORM 4. You list the item(s) on the Schedule A of your trust, with serial, same as Form 4. Mail it all off with 200 per item, to BATF.

 

[gonzaga]

Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

The lawyer that I was talking to about setting up a trust for a can wanted to include all of my property in it as well as the suppressor. I told her that I only wanted it for the suppressor reason and she insisted that I should include everything.

I dropped the subject right then and there. Nothing worse than someone who is trying to get a job and they won't listen to you.

I'm still searching for a good lawyer to get it done for me.

 

[Lofty]

Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

I used Quicken.

I sent copies with applications for stamps on two suppressors. Got the stamps back in record time with zero problems.

I paid for my copy of Quicken however I have no problem sharing digital copy of my trust with anyone here that wants it so that they can ensure theres is done correctly. I'll just remove my specific info and put in generic titles and names so you can change it appropriately and print as many copies as you like for you or your attorney to review.

It worked great for me, Mr. Lamberger returned my stamps pronto and with no hick-ups.

 

[COLOSHOOTR]

Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

It's treads like this that end up with very little factual info and a ton of the ATF is going to take your toys after you die speculation that makes the Trust route clear as mud. There is no reason that it should be this complicated but the reality is a few lawyers that wanted to make a buck have done some great marketing and have everyone running scared....

I am not an attorney although I do play one on TV. Seriously, I deal with legal stuff all day long at work so I know a little about this legal stuff. As we all know the ATF allows the transfer of an NFA item to a Individual, Partnership, Company, Corporation, Association, Trust or Estate. As long as it's a valid legal entity that is permitted to own a NFA item you should be GTG with a NFA purchase. You can create many of the valid legal entities mentioned above, including the trust, without an Attorney. As long as a Nolo, Quicken, Legal Zoom and so on, trust is done properly with no mistakes and you live in a State that does not require registration your trust should be legal barring any other requirements your State of residence may have. A quick Google search will tell you what requirements your State has for trusts. Generally speaking with few exceptions Trust law appears to be pretty uniform across the country thanks to the UTC. I did have an attorney look over my Nolo trust (at no charge) and he told me that it was a valid legal trust that was properly set up. That is enough for the ATF to transfer the item to you. Now be sure you have instructions on the steps required to have the items legally transferred to to beneficiary and you should have no isses with the ATF. Now if they just take it home and forget to send in the required paperwork then they may get a visit from an ATF SA who will be taking thay pesky NFA item off their hands. Until I hear otherwise from someone who has had issues with a transfer after the death of a Trusts grantor or an attorney who knows guns but does not make money selling NFA trusts to the scared souls out here I don't believe a expensive NFA trust is needed. That being said if you have the extra $$$ there is nothing wrong with seeking competent legal advice from an Attorney.

That is all....

 

[branson1369]

Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

Well said!

 

[Graham]

Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: COLOSHOOTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seriously, I deal with legal stuff all day long at work so I know a little about this legal stuff... </div></div>NFA Trust: $50.00
NFA Item: $10,0000.00
Tax Stamp: $200.00
Doing it yourself: Priceless.

 

[djones01]

Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

I am at the crossroads of the trust decision myself and have researched this to the point of brain damage.

Obviously both generic and custom Trusts have been approved by examiners, presumably because they "appear" to be legal and/or correct.

Ironically, a Waco, TX NFA dealer stated elsewhere "<span style="font-style: italic">if it makes any difference i have had 2 customers not approved or approved with provisions....... BOTH of those trust were done by lawyers.

NO problems ever with the quicken versions.......

It seems the ONLY problems i have personally seen with trust is ones that folks didnt follow the directions in willmaker or lawyer drafted trusts. </span>"

Attorneys have specializations just like any other professional; maybe it's in Trust preparation, maybe not. One atty with whom I consulted said he had a Houston atty add the magical NFA language to his Trust. Now he can prepare them for his clients for $400. WOW! Simply getting an attorney to draw up the document doesn't give me any more comfort than using a company with millions of documents in use world wide. Do you "anti-quicken" guys think Intuit doesn't have any lawyers working for them??? Geeeish!!!!

Anyway, my conclusion is the problem is not getting the Trust past the NFA in as much as how the assets are handled upon the grantor's death or if a trustee or beneficiary fails the "legality" test.

Again, I'll borrow another's quote to sum up...<span style="font-style: italic">"given the number of individuals that have used quicken to create NFA trusts it makes sense that the BATFE and US attorney are too busy [to bother with] the prosecution of law abiding citizens using inexpensive trusts to go for the low hanging fruit these criminals presented."</span>

 

[jammywilliams]

Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

Living trusts are named because they do not contain provisions to reduce or eliminate federal estate taxes. Simple trusts are used mainly by individuals whose estates are not large enough to be subject to the federal estate tax.
_______________________________________________________
For more information visit Probate Administration | Florida Probate Lawyer

 

[chittnp]

Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

I have been following this thread for a while now, and I still have a few questions about this that maybe someone could shed a little light on. I am Active Duty Army, stationed WA, which allows the purchase and use of suppressors. If I spend the money to have an attorney in WA draw up a trust specifically for WA, and then PCS, say to TX, does the trust become invalid? I would think that a more general trust, that contains the Language the NFA needs to see it as a valid trust would be more important than making sure the state of WA considers it valid. After all, isn't it the NFA branch we're trying to make happy here, not the state? Does the NFA branch care at all about the language that is specific to the state? I think that if I die, a trust the NFA branch signed off on as valid would still be good to go for the transfer of the items to the beneficiaries as far as the NFA branch is is concerned. Now I could see where the state of XYZ might say that it's not valid and that someone not listed as a beneficiary could cause some legal trouble and drama if they wanted the items, but as far as the NFA is concerned, the beneficiaries listed in the trust would still be legally able to possess the item. I get the impression that as long as the trust is approved by the NFA to transfer the items to it, then it should be good to go, it's unlikely to be re-examined upon my death. Also, why would an NFA item trust require more special language than any other trust I might use for estate planning? I'm going with a trust to ensure my family doesnt have to deal with the hassle of sbmitting the form 4's and such, not to get around having the CLEO sign off or get fingerprints done, and not because I plan on having a large number of NFA items. In the end it's done to make sure the ATF doesnt hassle my wife while she's trying to make arrangements to settle my estate. I can see the validity of paying a lawyer to do it if I was going to spend the rest of my life in WA, but in the end, what's the difference if the NFA branch approves it?

 

[timelinex]

Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: COLOSHOOTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seriously, I deal with legal stuff all day long at work so I know a little about this legal stuff... </div></div>NFA Trust: $50.00
NFA Item: $10,0000.00
Tax Stamp: $200.00
Doing it yourself: Priceless.

</div></div>
I think that might be where the by rift between some people here... Most people here saying to with the quicken version are probably referring to their one or two suppressors valued at <1000 a piece. Not sure if anyone here is saying to skimp out $100 on getting a 'proper' trust on a $30,000 machine gun

 

[Graham]

Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: timelinex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not sure if anyone here is saying to skimp out $100 on getting a 'proper' trust on a $30,000 machine gun </div></div>The civil and criminal penalties for violating the NFA are the same either way.

 

[Killer Spade 13]

Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

This is what the thread is about:

I posted this thread not as an idea for a complete legal library, but simply a way of allowing <span style="font-weight: bold">1:</span> <span style="color: #CC0000">A</span> shooter of <span style="font-weight: bold">2</span>: <span style="color: #CC0000">A specific state </span>to have access to <span style="font-weight: bold">3:</span> <span style="color: #CC0000">A sample trust previously accepted by the ATF </span>for <span style="font-weight: bold">4:</span> The <span style="color: #CC0000">sole purpose </span>of <span style="font-weight: bold">5:</span> Purchasing <span style="color: #CC0000">one suppressor</span>.

 

[Graham]

Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Killer Spade 13</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is what the thread is about:

I posted this thread not as an idea for a complete legal library, but simply a way of allowing <span style="font-weight: bold">1:</span> <span style="color: #CC0000">A</span> shooter of <span style="font-weight: bold">2</span>: <span style="color: #CC0000">A specific state </span>to have access to <span style="font-weight: bold">3:</span> <span style="color: #CC0000">A sample trust previously accepted by the ATF </span>for <span style="font-weight: bold">4:</span> The <span style="color: #CC0000">sole purpose </span>of <span style="font-weight: bold">5:</span> Purchasing <span style="color: #CC0000">one suppressor</span>. </div></div>And the answer so far appears to be that a) free advice is worth what you pay for it; and b) no one is all too keen on helping someone else benefit at their expense. Hmmm.....

 

[Smith44699]

Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: timelinex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So is the only problem with a poorly written trust that when you die your beneficiary might have a hard time acquiring the NFA item or might end up not being able to get it? If so, that really doesn't sound like a problem at all! Out of all my possessions, the can would be the LAST thing I would be worried about.</div></div>


Until your friends or family are breaking the law. Then they have to deal with something they may have no idea about. That's what I want to be. A burden when I am dead. But hey it may just be the beer talking. Happy Thanksgiving.