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load development isnt going smoothly, i need a common sense check

It's in a custom stock. Well free floated. If the charge doesn't change vibration, then why the heck change charge weights at all to find the most accurate node in the barrel harmonics? That's what reloading is all about.

A basic understanding means, go read up. We tune to get the bullet to leave the barrel at a certain point in the multiple different vibrations that run up and down a barrel. I am not going to search it out, or spell it out for you in someone else's thread about having trouble with their rifle. Coming in here and saying something that stupid then doubling down on it, rather than googling it, is retarded.
 
If they don't want to help you out with the barrel, I would try some fire lapping rounds. You can get them from Tubb, I've had 2 barrels over the years I just wasn't happy with and it made a drastic difference. Probably will take away some life but better than ending up as a target stand right now.
 
A basic understanding means, go read up. We tune to get the bullet to leave the barrel at a certain point in the multiple different vibrations that run up and down a barrel. I am not going to search it out, or spell it out for you in someone else's thread about having trouble with their rifle. Coming in here and saying something that stupid then doubling down on it, rather than googling it, is retarded.
Tuning my rifle

vinyl-decal-sticker-9829.jpg
 
So just an update. I talked to them today, and I'm sending it back to them sometime this week so they can check it out and see if they can find a problem. NSS was very helpful on the phone and got back to me right away. So once I send it in this week I guess we will let the waiting game begin
 
I am going to begin load development this weekend. I have virgin Peterson brass that I have FL resized and trimmed and I plan on FL resizing and trimming to the same length every firing. Am I ok to do load development with this virgin brass or will I see a difference after the first firing and FL resize?
 
I am going to begin load development this weekend. I have virgin Peterson brass that I have FL resized and trimmed and I plan on FL resizing and trimming to the same length every firing. Am I ok to do load development with this virgin brass or will I see a difference after the first firing and FL resize?

It would be best to start a new thread so that you will be the OP and responses will be on topic for you.
 
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I am going to begin load development this weekend. I have virgin Peterson brass that I have FL resized and trimmed and I plan on FL resizing and trimming to the same length every firing. Am I ok to do load development with this virgin brass or will I see a difference after the first firing and FL resize?

Use 1x brass for load development.
 
I'm sorry to hear you're having a tough time getting this barrel dialed in. Extended load development sessions never make for a very pleasant shooting experience, so we'll be more than happy to help get things squared away for you as quickly as possible.

I'm glad to hear you were able to get in touch with NSS yesterday. James called us this morning and filled us in on your experiences so far. We should be getting the barrel in shortly, and will have Michael go over it in detail (I sent him a link to this thread as well). If he finds something suspect going on in there he'll make sure to get it squared away one way or the other. If everything looks good we'll mount it up in one of our shop rifles and see if we can find a load that it likes.

If we wind up replicating the results you were seeing, we'll get a replacement fast tracked and on its way to you ASAP.

If you have any questions along the way feel free to get in touch with Michael at (262) 628-8749 or via email at [email protected]. Please keep us posted if there is anything else we can help with on our end!
 
I'm sorry to hear you're having a tough time getting this barrel dialed in. Extended load development sessions never make for a very pleasant shooting experience, so we'll be more than happy to help get things squared away for you as quickly as possible.

I'm glad to hear you were able to get in touch with NSS yesterday. James called us this morning and filled us in on your experiences so far. We should be getting the barrel in shortly, and will have Michael go over it in detail (I sent him a link to this thread as well). If he finds something suspect going on in there he'll make sure to get it squared away one way or the other. If everything looks good we'll mount it up in one of our shop rifles and see if we can find a load that it likes.

If we wind up replicating the results you were seeing, we'll get a replacement fast tracked and on its way to you ASAP.

If you have any questions along the way feel free to get in touch with Michael at (262) 628-8749 or via email at [email protected]. Please keep us posted if there is anything else we can help with on our end!

Working with NSS and in turn you guys has been a very easy process this whole time. I hope nothing in here looks like I'm trying to shit talk you guys at all as that is not the intent at all. I just want to get this gun to shoot. I know there are a ton of variables that go into accuracy and the barrel is just one of them. If it does end up being the barrel I understand that shit happens, and it's already clear that you guys are doing what you can to help figure this out, so I appreciate that.

The barrel was shipped your way today, I look forward to hearing back from you guys.
 
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I put a note in with the barrel mentioning what all I tried to get it to shoot. And pretty much everything is in this thread, but if you guys have any questions of me feel free to send an email, I have the guns log book in the truck so I'll be able to answer anything you may need to know
 
Thanks Adam! We'll definitely be in touch as soon as we get a chance to look the barrel over. We're looking forward to helping get this build dialed in and back out on the range.
 
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So just an update for everyone that has been more than helpful here.

I figured what the hell and picked up another barrel to use in the mean time. Doing the quick math on how much I shoot I figure I'll be due for a new one in a year or so, so what's it going to hurt to have a second now.

I took the gun out today with the new barrel and some hornady black 140s. I haven't seen much about this ammo, and it's not what I wanted to use, but no one has any match anywhere around here. I do have some in the mail, but it wasnt going to be here in time, so hornady black it was.

The gun shot great. Substantially better than it did before. And better than I was expecting out of this unknown ammo.

Groups were consistently in the .3 to .4 range. There would sometimes be a flyer in a 5 shot group that would open things up to .7 or .8 but with non match ammo I'll blame that on the ammo maybe not being so consistent, and hell let's be fair, that could have been me slipping up here and there too.

Next up is some actual match ammo just to see how itll do, and then I'll be trying to develop a load for it once again, with hopefully better results than last time.

I'm still looking forward to getting word back from criterion about that 1st barrel, and might switch back to the criterion once I get it back and let this one sit aside as a back up/replacement in the future. Only reason being that the new one is 24inches, and I would prefer the 26 inch barrel i had originally planned for

Thanks again to everyone who offered help. Not much of it worked but it was still educational and i know just a little. It more about troubleshooting these things than i did before.

And on a quick side note, I got the RPRs load dialed in today at a hair under .5 with decent sd/es numbers so all in all it was a good day
 
So just an update for everyone that has been more than helpful here.

I figured what the hell and picked up another barrel to use in the mean time. Doing the quick math on how much I shoot I figure I'll be due for a new one in a year or so, so what's it going to hurt to have a second now.

I took the gun out today with the new barrel and some hornady black 140s. I haven't seen much about this ammo, and it's not what I wanted to use, but no one has any match anywhere around here. I do have some in the mail, but it wasnt going to be here in time, so hornady black it was.

The gun shot great. Substantially better than it did before. And better than I was expecting out of this unknown ammo.

Groups were consistently in the .3 to .4 range. There would sometimes be a flyer in a 5 shot group that would open things up to .7 or .8 but with non match ammo I'll blame that on the ammo maybe not being so consistent, and hell let's be fair, that could have been me slipping up here and there too.

Next up is some actual match ammo just to see how itll do, and then I'll be trying to develop a load for it once again, with hopefully better results than last time.

I'm still looking forward to getting word back from criterion about that 1st barrel, and might switch back to the criterion once I get it back and let this one sit aside as a back up/replacement in the future. Only reason being that the new one is 24inches, and I would prefer the 26 inch barrel i had originally planned for

Thanks again to everyone who offered help. Not much of it worked but it was still educational and i know just a little. It more about troubleshooting these things than i did before.

And on a quick side note, I got the RPRs load dialed in today at a hair under .5 with decent sd/es numbers so all in all it was a good day
What's the barrel? Pics or it didn't happen :p
 
Here's how it shot today. Most of the groups look just about like these. That one up to the right is 8(buddy of mine put 3 on top of my 5 before he realized I wanted him to shoot his own group lol) , the other two are both 5
 

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2 boxes of 140eld match and 2 boxes of 147 eld match just showed up at the house today. I'll run these through it next weekend. And I'll do a round of load dev for the 130 bergers too
 
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Thats more like what i have come to expect from a Criterion barrel.

This one is from mcrees, the criterion from the begining of this thread is on it's way back to them now to be checked out. But agreed, this is what I was expecting. And I'm sure once I get the other back itll perform just as well!
 
This one is from mcrees, the criterion from the begining of this thread is on it's way back to them now to be checked out. But agreed, this is what I was expecting. And I'm sure once I get the other back itll perform just as well!
Yea my criterion is a .3-.4 barrel I believe. I havent been able to print 5x5 in the .3s but I think that is me not the barrel. It prob would in a benchrest set up but what fun is that?
 
This past summer I worked up a load for a new 260 Rem barrel. I found that the barrel didn't like certain bullets. My reference load turned out to be with a 140 gr Sierra Matchking. That one was real easy to get it to shoot. I finally got the Berger 140 gr Hybrid to shoot well. But other bullets I tried were not as consistent. So, don't be afraid to try other bullets.
Different bullets have different ogive measurement. I noticed the same weight Sierra 140 gr. MK vs 140 ELDM are very different.. sometimes it's better to play with seating depth. I have used Satterlees load development and seeing the group that is best is what I do.
 
I use increments that correspond to 1% or so of the overall starting load weight (i.e. 42gr, .4gr increments). I start at the high end (for me, max charge minus 2%) and work my way down. I make 12 rounds of each load, and shoot two groups of five rounds each, throwing out called flyers and shooting the extra round(s) to take their place. Trying to shoot more than ten increments per session is unproductive since it encourages fatigue and rushing the process. When you find a tight charge/group coincidence, return next session with charges that bracket the good ones by .5% increments (i.e. 42gr, .2gr increments). ...And yes, my club range is also an hour distant.

At the end of each session, I shoot one aggregate group consisting of all the unfired rounds, it should create a group that looks like stringing. If not, there may be a mechanical issue regarding the bedding/scope mounting, etc.

Remove all fluky problems from the system before shooting the groups; i.e. eliminate parallax, verify guard screw torque, etc. Without this step, random errors become more likely.

I avoid cleaning during load testing, to remove yet another variable. You should be able to shoot several hundred rounds before cleaning becomes an imperative.

Start each session by shooting a couple of groups with a known good load, this calibrates the shooter and also adequately fouls the barrel.

Maintain a steady firing cadence that does not vary between increments.

Never adopt a load that has not been confirmed with at least 5 acceptable groups.

Load development ultimately reaches a point of diminishing returns, stop before it seriously impacts bore life. If I get 1/2MOA out of my testing, I'm better than good. It begins with arbitrary values for seating depth/jump, I usually start and stay at magazine feeding length. Primer testing and seating depth variations are done after a good ballpark load weight is established. Once all the variables are found, try bracketing the charge weight again by .5%, to see if that refines the load any further.

Final, and probably the most important suggestion; never attempt to change more than one factor, like charge weight, or primer brand, etc., in any single session. When more than one good charge weight is found within the reasonable weight spread, I prefer choosing the lower one to reduce bore wear. High speed equaling good accuracy tends to be a myth, all velocities demand proper winds skills. The less velocity, the longer the barrel will live, so perk up the wind skills rather than the velocity.

I have found that numbers like SD, etc., may or may not correspond to good accuracy. I only chronograph the final load (if at all), to plot trajectories with some accuracy. Fairly often, estimating velocity by combining judgement about loading manual info, altitude, and barrel length will deliver a muzzle velocity estimate that jibes pretty well against observed drops. Facts are, environmental variances will conspire to invalidate many calculations and assumptions, and just getting out there and shooting the rifle frequently will often serve one equally well.

Whatever else seems logically helpful.

Greg

Scientific Method.
 
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ill try to keep this short, but im trying to develop a load for my new rifle and its not going too smoothly, i have an idea or two but want to common sense check it with you guys before i end up wasting components trying to chase my tail.

gun: trued remington 700 action, criterion 6.5 creedmoor barrel 1/8 twist varmit profile, area419 brake, mpa ba comp chassis, leupold mark5hd, arc rings, seekins 20moa rail. everything is torqued to spec, and was confirmed pre and post range trip.

ammo: norma brass, h4350, 147gr eld-ms, cci bench rest primers

reloading process: deburr/chamfer, full length sized(virgin brass, 2nd firing and on will be a bump size) with a redding type s, expand necks with 21st centry mandrel for .002 neck tension, prime by hand, throw powder with an rcbs chargemaster and seat with a forster micrometer seating die.

the attempt was to do a 10-shot saterlee type load dev. those results are:

41.7 2707
41.9 2733
42.1 2748
42.3 2750
42.5 2760
42.7 2778
42.9 2787
43.1 2815 (saw pressure signs and stopped here)

so from looking at those numbers i settled on trying 42.2 and running a seating depth test to see what works, results below:

.010 off lands. 1.66moa. avg 2743 sd 3.3 es 10
.020 off lands. 1.12moa. avg 2757 sd 8.7 es 23
.030 off lands 1.08moa. avg 2752 sd 7.1 es 21
.040 off lands 1.55moa. avg 2748 sd 14.2 es 41 (i think i got a bad read from the magneto speed on this one, one came in way slow)
factory length (2.800 coal) .85moa. avg 2759 sd 3.7 es 10

so basically the numbers on .010 off and 2.8coal are good i would think. but the groups sucked across the board. is it possible i just picked a bad charge weight and im not in a node like i thought i was? i did a ladder with RL16 and 42.1 and 42.3 both shot within 7fps of eachother (2800/2807). should i explore that instead of the h4350? could the gun just not like the 147s? i guess there are a handful of things to change in here and im wondering which will be the best direction to go to tighten this gun up. if my sd/es numbers can stay in the 3.x/10 range ill be happy with that, but i would expect the gun is capable of shooting much tighter groups than it did today. (for reference i can regularly shoot in the .6 range with my RPR and handloads, so i feel comfortable saying im capable of better than what i was seeing today.

This guy I shoot with uses 39.5grs of H4350 with that bullet... 2650 FPS. Maybe your gun doesn’t like it that hot.