Looking for a good 20" CLE 5.56 chamber LR load

BigJohn141

BigJohn141

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 18, 2011
795
262
Timnath, Co
#1
Hey guys, I managed to get my hands on a used 20" Compass Lake Kreiger 1:7.7 barrel date stamp of 12-04 with a Compass Lake chamber and under 1k round count which I think came out of a comp service rifle. I built IMO a pretty nice Long Range AR around this barrel and so far it is shooting just over 1/2MOA with factory 77SMKs. I have everything ready to start reloading but I am just trying to find a few good starting points. I plan on loading the 77SMKs for mid range stuff out to 600 but I was planning on loading up some 80SMKs and 80VLDs to try to get out to 800 and maybe beyond just for fun. I was just wondering if anyone had any experience with this barrel and chamber and wouldn't mind pointing me in the right direction. I have Varget powder and Winchester primers and will be using once fired fully preped LC brass but I am open to other suggestions. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
 
#2
Re: Looking for a good 20" CLE 5.56 chamber LR load

24.5-25.0 Varget, 80's seated .020 from the lands ( sierra's)
I had very very god results with 25.3 of N150 and an 80. work up to it from 24.5 or so find your node. Its an old AMU load and a few guys are running it successfully here in service rifle comps. I just shoot 77's all the way back now, so I quit using 80's. I would also suggest the 82 grain bergers. But, the 77's will make it to 800. The differebce in the 77 and an 80 isn't that great. If you can get a hold of the Atlanta Arms 77 AMU loads, they will make it to 1k. I get 2950Fps from my service rifle with the exact same barrel you have.
 
#5
Re: Looking for a good 20" CLE 5.56 chamber LR load

75 gr Hdy BTHP & 24 gr of varget seated to mag length (or even clear out to the lands if you want to single feed), LC brass & CCI SR primers.

I have shot 1/4" groups out of my AR with this load. That does not mean I am a 0.25 MOA shooter, it just means I got lucky...
 
#6
Re: Looking for a good 20" CLE 5.56 chamber LR load

I will give both a try. My barrel seems to like the 77smk a little better then the 75bthp in factory stuff but of course that really doesn't mean anything when it comes to hand loading. I actually have a box of 75 BTHP and 75 amax so I might as well give them a shot.
 
#7
Re: Looking for a good 20" CLE 5.56 chamber LR load

Reloder 15 is another great powder for the 223's and 75's. My go to loads for the 75's are 24.7 of RE15. for 77's, here are a few loads that will do well in your rifle, like I said, I have the exact same barrel, and the govt owned Team rifle is the same as well. Different powders than you had listed, but all are proven performers for me and several others.

77's ( Lc brass and wolf SRM primers in all)
24.5 RE15 ( also a good 80 load, just got to mess with seating)
24.3-24.5 of N140 ( my old RRA liked the 24.3, the CLE the 24.5)
23.2 IMR 8208 (becomming very popular lately, 24.0 is another node, but you really got to work up to that one,5.56 pressures fo-sho)
24.0-24.5 Varget

I really like the VV powders and the 8208 as they are very small kernaled, and flow well. The VV burns pretty clean too.

All of these will actually do pretty well with the 75's 75 A-Max (can't make them mag length though) 77's, 80's loaded out long for single load (2.550 or thereabouts)

VLD's can be a pain at times,but don't be fooled they have to be touching or jammed into the lands, they can jump, its just a very small window, and very sensitive to how far. If you go on Bergers site, they address this in the tech section or something like it, and give a good set of instructions to find your jump.

But with the AR, the sierra's shoot so well, and are half the cost. The "extra B.C." is not that significant at all in a 223. At the speeds you will get with them vs. a 77 sierra in a 20 in barrel, I figured out it would be difference of one 1/4 min click @ 600 yds in a 10 mph full value wind.. Not worth the extra costs, or hassle. And the old " I can squeak in a 10 instead of a 9 with the VLD" argument holds no water with me, it just means you missed a 10 mph full value wind call and are hoping a majic bullet will correct for that. It won't. Not in a 20 in. 223 AR @600.
wink.gif


Other rifles can and do benifit from VLD's, I'm not a hater. Just from experience shooting 20 in AR's, I cannot justify the added expense and hassle. Id rather learn to stop missing 10 mph wind changes.. lol
wink.gif
 
#8
Re: Looking for a good 20" CLE 5.56 chamber LR load

I might just pick up some re15 and 8208 to try out along with wolf primers. Any advise on br4 primers? I see a lot of guys using them as well. Looks like I might be making a stop at the gun shop today. I appreciate the advise on the vlds, I might play around with them in the future but for now it looks like the smks are hard to beat.

Oh, are those thrown weights or measured? I plan on using a dillon 550 to load with for the majority of the rounds and I know some powders don't think to be thrown. Of course if I decide to jump into a comp I will take the time to measure them all out.
 
#9
Re: Looking for a good 20" CLE 5.56 chamber LR load

I'm shooting 24 grains of Varget with 77 SMK's out to 600, loaded to mag length with CCI 400, BHA cases. 2700 FPS.

For 1K I'm loading 25 grains of Varget and 80.5 Bergers in a Winchester case and Wolf Small Rifle Magnum primers. Longer than mag length but not sure how far off the lands, boattail-shank junction at neck-shoulder junction. 2800 FPS.

Both bullets should work fine in LC brass, I haven't tried the LC with those loads, With LC brass I've been shooting 52 SMK with 25 grains of H335 and Winchester Large Rifle primer (same load in PMC also). 3100 FPS.

I keep track of loads by cases.
 
#10
Re: Looking for a good 20" CLE 5.56 chamber LR load

I really appreciate all the help guys, keep them coming if you dont mind because I need all the help I can get lol. I think I am going to start with 77SMKs loaded to mag length and start out with 24 grains of Varget and work up from there. I will probably do the same for the 80 SMKs but put them .010-.020 off the lands for a small jump to try to have something that will get out to 800-1000. I also plan on picking up some wolf magnum primers since the seem to be really popular with all you guys that are talking from experience. I am still kicking around playing with the 80 and 82 bergers later on simply because I do live in Oklahoma and there isnt a day out of the year with wind less than 10mph so I need as much wind bucking as possible. Thanks again guys.
 
#11
Re: Looking for a good 20" CLE 5.56 chamber LR load

The wolf primers are fantastic. The BR4's are good, just a harder cup, like the wolf SRM's. Both hold pressure well. You can load to 5.56 pressure in your barrel, and the thicker cups help. 8208 will meter great in a dillon, RE15 will do ok, just have to be a little more watchful and consistant on your pulls. Reloading is just like shooting, all about being consistant and repeatable. Going with the 77's at mag length with 8208 would be a good plan if your going to use the dillon. I throw all my charges with a redding Powder measure. Never had an issue. N140 and RE15 flows petty good through it, Varget not so much, so I don't use it. 8208 is almost like a ball powder and meters well in just about anything.
 
#12
Re: Looking for a good 20" CLE 5.56 chamber LR load

Another tip when loading for ARs is primers. I run CCI primers because they are harder and reduce the risk of a slam fire (and yes I have seen one). I run the CCI 450s which provide great accuracy and I think are the same as #41 milspecs.
 
#13
Re: Looking for a good 20" CLE 5.56 chamber LR load

If you want to try a different route, especially effective in a Dillon, and turned into one of my fave 600 loads,I run 24.8 of 2520 behind any old 75 or 77.

It runs the Nosler 77's at 2800 plus from my Rock River matchgun, I think they use Wilson barrels if I remember right....

You want to go the cheap route and run surplus powder I did a write up with my service rifle here......

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...924#Post2717924

Remember I'm a volume guy, so sometimes I sacrifice the perfect load for the ability to make a whole batch quick and easy.

And every team sponsored guy is shooting the brown box 262 stuff at the 600 line here in Tucson, which tells me ball powder works just fine. Even when it's 110 outside.


sean
 
#15
Re: Looking for a good 20" CLE 5.56 chamber LR load

Sean,

I was deployed this year and didn't fire with the team,(All Guard)We do shoot the Brown Box Mk262 at 200-300, but we do shoot an Atlant Arms 77 load at 600. Not the AMU load, but just a hair under it. Different contract I guess. We also shot some Black Hills Match with 77's some too. in 2010 the AMU was using Atlanta Arms AMU load with sierra 77's at 2-3 and the same load with a Lapua 77 Scenar at 600. Word on the street is they use a different bullet these days.
But your right, the factory ball powder loaded ammo will do it. The Mk262 will shoot very well. The AA even better. If I had a dillon, id use 8208 or TAC, or maybe even the power pro 2000, which may be a commercial derivitive of the infamous St. Marks powder used by Atlanta Arms. Mk 262 is just a belgian ball powder and really not special. BH used cannister grade Tac I believe in the past, and possibly still.
I don't make much AR ammo anymore, can't and won't use them in the team gun, and my personal rifle is an exact duplicate of it, and I don't get as much opportunity to use it. I do loan it out for people that have gear problems or need a rifle at times though localy. Even the lower had rounds on it at Perry when I lent it to a Jr shooter that was having trigger problems before I even had an upper for it and fired it myself...
wink.gif
So I do make some, maybe 2-3000 a year for it. And I do it with a redding BR and an old jr.3 press in batches of at least 500. It doesn't take long even on that set up. I start with primed ready to go brass and can load 500 in about an hour and a half or less. The super cool tuned to the rifle loads with prepped brass and micrometer seating with .1 gr accuracy of the charge, well they shoot the same as the stuff off the truck. just a little slower...
wink.gif
 
#16
Re: Looking for a good 20" CLE 5.56 chamber LR load

I think mk262 waffles between 77nosler and 77sierra.

2000MR is viable but you will need a fair amount of it, I think 26 grains gave me 2600-2630fps out of an 18" with a 77.

If I were buying powder right now for 223AR I'd try to find some AR-Comp the reviews are just too good to pass up and with charge weights lighter than varget you get more bang for your buck...
 
#17
Re: Looking for a good 20" CLE 5.56 chamber LR load

Thanks guys. I am about to enter a 1000 yard match which will be in March, I hope to have a 6.5CM by then but if not the AR will be tested to it's limit.
 
#18
Re: Looking for a good 20" CLE 5.56 chamber LR load

I had quite a few pressure problems with my CLE chamber AR using some of the listed loads. I had to drop a half grain down from a Wylde chamber WOP upper.
The easiest way to go is just drop 24 grains of RE15 out of the Dillon and learn position, position, position. I never lost a point because of it and it was good enough for me to have a bad day and still leg at Perry last year.
Shooting the AR at 1k before you can reliably shoot 190's+ at 600 is going to make for a long day. good luck.
 
#19
Re: Looking for a good 20" CLE 5.56 chamber LR load

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunsnjeeps</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm shooting 24 grains of Varget with 77 SMK's out to 600, loaded to mag length with CCI 400, BHA cases. 2700 FPS.

For 1K I'm loading 25 grains of Varget and 82.5 Bergers in a Winchester case and Wolf Small Rifle Magnum primers. Longer than mag length but not sure how far off the lands, boattail-shank junction at neck-shoulder junction. 2800 FPS.

Both bullets should work fine in LC brass, I haven't tried the LC with those loads, With LC brass I've been shooting 52 SMK with 25 grains of H335 and Winchester Large Rifle primer (same load in PMC also). 3100 FPS.

I keep track of loads by cases. </div></div>

80.5 Berger. My fingers got ahead of me.
 
#20
Re: Looking for a good 20" CLE 5.56 chamber LR load

Just wanted to say thanks again for all the info guys. I have 2 test batches loaded up and ready to go if/when I get a day off and the winds is not blowing like crazy. I decided to go with 77SMKs loaded to 2.260 on top of 23-24 (.2 increments, 5 shots each) grains of IMR 8208 for the first mid range batch and the second batch is going to be the extreme LR load with 80VLDs loaded at 2.550 on top of the same spread of 23-24 grains of IMR 8208, both loads using new LC 2011 brass and CCI 450 SRM primers (no wolf primers available local). I will let you guys know how everything works out.
 
#22
Re: Looking for a good 20" CLE 5.56 chamber LR load

Berger 80VLDs. My shooting buddy has a chrono that I can borrow to see what they are running. I am not too worried about staying supersonic out to 1000 but we will see what happens.
 
#23
Re: Looking for a good 20" CLE 5.56 chamber LR load

Damn Panzer you sure know your stuff. This was the 80VLDs loaded at 2.550 COAL with IMR 8208, 5 shots at 100 yards.

db79978d.jpg

5ffbf18f.jpg


I didn't see pressure signs at 24 but I need to load another batch, I started pulling shots after a good 3 shot group. Seems like I still need more practice to be consistant.
 
#24
Re: Looking for a good 20" CLE 5.56 chamber LR load

Thank you. Glad to see its working out for you! The 8208 is becoming a favorite. Less powder = more charges! And more bullets to shoot! I'm almost scared to try it in 308, wouldn't know what to do with all my RE15 if it worked as well...
 
#25
Re: Looking for a good 20" CLE 5.56 chamber LR load

2.55 COAL in a CLE chamber?? that should make them about .090 or so jammed. might want to check your numbers even though it shoots well.
I hope you didn't get the 2.55" number out of a loading manual, they always reference a Colt HBAR chamber.
 
#26
Re: Looking for a good 20" CLE 5.56 chamber LR load

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Xcount</div><div class="ubbcode-body">2.55 COAL in a CLE chamber?? that should make them about .090 or so jammed. might want to check your numbers even though it shoots well.
I hope you didn't get the 2.55" number out of a loading manual, they always reference a Colt HBAR chamber. </div></div>

That doesent sound too long with a VLD, which is what he is using. The ogive is much lower. An 80 Sierra, maybe I could see it. But what the print says and what real life are can be different. I have Loaded to 2.50 with an 80 sierra in a CLE chamber and been .010 off the lands, and .020 in a wylde chamber, and they have very different listed freebore and leade and suggested OAL for a 80 Sierra, but not .010... so it could happen. OAL isn't a real big deal unless your trying to fit something in a magazine, measuring off the ogive to your chamber with your lot of bullets is the only real sure way to know.

5.56 CLE
.025 freebore
1 deg,30 min leade, 2.450 OAL with Sierra 80

223 Wylde
.0619 freebore
1 deg,15 min leade, 2.475 OAL with Sierra 80

Huge difference between the two, ( relatively) but I only saw a .010 difference. Who knew?
wink.gif

everyones chamber is different to a degree. Even between 3 CLE chambers I own, I have seen some big variences. No big deal. I Shoot 77's and they don't care. But you can't trust every published number, best to just check your chamber and go from there, if you want to load bullets longer than mag length, or even loading data. In my CLE Chambers, I can run loads with no pressure signs that people I personally know, and have read about on here ( your previous post is one ) and other places, have pressure issues with when using an older chambered CLE chamber, and vice versa. Weird. ETA, Freebore diameter will have an effect on all of this as well.

Also I don't think this guy is shooting HP. Precision rifle or Fclass is a little more demanding of rifle and ammo.
 
#27
Re: Looking for a good 20" CLE 5.56 chamber LR load

you mentioned a older CLE chamber and I guess that's what I have. The barrel is stamped USMC '99 and I know its from CLE so that must be old enough to have the "old chamber". I had never heard of a redesign.
I never bothered about any of this stuff for my first two seasons, just put 24.0 of Varget under a good bullet and learned to shoot. Made Master in two seasons and started using this CLE barreled upper and started having primer popping issues, I went to 24.0 of RE15 with the new upper and I wanted to try 80 Amax's so I went to a match and popped 14 of 22 primers. Not good for scores when you have to break position to open the upper that many times. Ruined all the brass too.
So that's why I always speak up when a CLE chamber is talked about, they are very different than the Wylde. The CLE chamber and 2.5" oal rang alarm bells to me.

If I could get AA 77's issued to me, that's all I would shoot too! great stuff.

Happy New Year!
 
#28
Re: Looking for a good 20" CLE 5.56 chamber LR load

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Xcount</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you mentioned a older CLE chamber and I guess that's what I have.
If I could get AA 77's issued to me, that's all I would shoot too! great stuff.

Happy New Year! </div></div>

Got me on that one...
laugh.gif

Our load isn't the AMU one but is close.

On a side note, tried a 77 lapua with 25.3 of the new power pro 2000 MR tracked to within a half minute for me today for my normal 600 yd dope for the 77 AA load. Definately showed some promise. Unfortuneately I did not get Chrono results.
frown.gif
 
#29
Re: Looking for a good 20" CLE 5.56 chamber LR load

I did some chrono testing with 2000mr early last year. In my WOP Wylde chambered upper it showed good accuracy and velocity. 77's with 25.5 had 2760fps, right were my 24.0 of RE15 runs. I went up to 26gr with the 77's because that is what I hear the NG load is of whatever ST. Marks powder they run and 26 was showing pressure. What was interesting was when I tested 80's, all the SD's went to single digits. 25.5 made a SMK 80 run 2750fps which is much better than RE15 will do in my upper.
The downside I saw was heavy ejector marks. it is definitely slower and hammers the brass even though the primers looked fine. If i had a upper with a little smaller gas port the 2000 might be the ticket.
I went to H4895 because it made the same velocity, less pressure signs, outstanding accuracy (for me). I use the 2000mr in my Palma rifle with all bullet weights.
 
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