Rifle Scopes Low Distance Scope Dilemma, Please Help

[Koshy]

Hey guys,

Soooo I have a bit of a problem right now

On Wednesday nights the club I go to has a Rifle Night Event. This includes a .22 and any other Center Fire. The range is only a 50 meter Range. So some of the targets are at 20 and some are 50.

So it is not enough to have a .22 LR

My long range rifle scope for other ranges that are 100+ will be the Premier Reticle 3-15x50. But I need one for 20 - 50 meters and I would like something that is of high quality but not as expensive as the PR. So that leaves me with a Fixed Power scope or a Red Dot or Aim Point or Holosight or ACOG.

<span style="font-weight: bold">My concern with the Fixed Power scope:</span>
- They tend to use 1" tube, thus it will be impossible to have it resting at the same height as my 34mm tube PR scope, which means I will have to be constantly adjusting my cheek piece and Buttplate. Not only is this annoying but can create inconsistancies in my shooting.
- Possible lack of Parallax going down to 20 meters?

<span style="font-weight: bold">My concerns with a Red Dot/Aim Point/Holosight/ACOG:</span>
- From my understanding especially with a Red Dot or Aim Point is that they are less accurate then a scope, mostly due to dot size?
- Not sure if they will be effective on target paper for 20 - 50 meters, since as I understand it they are designed for more "human" sized/looking targets? At 20 meters my 10 ring is 0.5" across
- A lot more expensive then a Fixed Power Scope

But yes, EOTECH type sight or something like the Leupold Mark 4 CQ/T Riflescope, was what I was thinking about, but above are my concerns with something like that....

So I am left wondering, what is possible and what to do?

So if anyone has any good ideas about an accurate and good glass fixed power scope (saves money over variable), or extremely accurate ACOG type "scope", that will work in the range between 20 and 50 metres please help me

It will be on a Steyr SSG 08 Bolt Action Rifle.

Thanks,
- Koshy

 

[GunGuru727]

Re: Low Distance Scope Dilemma, Please Help

I dont undertstand why your left with a fixed power scope and eotechs. There are plenty of options out there. Take a look at some cheap bushnells 3-9x40?

 

[Koshy]

Re: Low Distance Scope Dilemma, Please Help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GunGuru727</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I dont undertstand why your left with a fixed power scope and eotechs. There are plenty of options out there. Take a look at some cheap bushnells 3-9x40? </div></div>

No offense but I would like quality... even for the shorter ranges... bushnell's are known to have about 10% deviancy, which isn't a big deal at short ranges... but when optics are suppose to be 50% to 100% of the cost of your rifle under normal circumstances, why wouldn't I go with something quality? Also Bushnell (Short of the new Elite 6500) is made in China -.- If I can support the States, or Japan or Both... I would much rather do that.

And doesn't have to be EOTech, could be Aimpoint, Triijcon, Leupold, etc...

Thanks,
- Koshy

 

[steve123]

Re: Low Distance Scope Dilemma, Please Help

The Bushnell 4200 1" tube 6-24x40 focuses down to 10 yards and has the best optics I've seen for a scope costing around $500.These scopes are really the old Bausch&lombs!Bushnell bought the company years ago.

It is a favorite,"the go to scope" for Field target air rifle shooters.It is a VERY high precision sport and shot from 10-55 yards.The scope has repeatable 1/8th" adjustments with low profile target turrets.

Steve

 

[Koshy]

Re: Low Distance Scope Dilemma, Please Help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Bushnell 4200 1" tube 6-24x40 focuses down to 10 yards and has the best optics I've seen for a scope costing around $500.These scopes are really the old Bausch&lombs!Bushnell bought the company years ago.

It is a favorite,"the go to scope" for Field target air rifle shooters.It is a VERY high precision sport and shot from 10-55 yards.The scope has repeatable 1/8th" adjustments with low profile target turrets.

Steve </div></div>

Thanks for the Info Steve, only one problem 1" tube... my Premier 3-15x50 uses 34mm tube... that means adjusting cheek and buttplate every time I switch... or is there a work around I am missing?

Thanks,
- Koshy

 

[Rob01]

Re: Low Distance Scope Dilemma, Please Help

No you don't. Just get the same height rings and the centerline of the scope will be in the same place. If your 34mm is in 1" height rings then get 1" height 1" rings and it will sit the same.

 

[eleaf]

Re: Low Distance Scope Dilemma, Please Help

I will soon have a Bushnell Elite 4200 6-24x50 Tactical for sale. Great glass for the price, has all of the other trimming you seek.

You could also look at the Trijicon 1-4x24 (30mm tube). GREAT glass a great reticle (I have the Green Triangle, though they do offer others as well).

 

[montyb]

Re: Low Distance Scope Dilemma, Please Help

i run a leupold 3-9 EFR (extended focus range) on my 10/.22 T. good scope that will focus down to 15 feet or soemthing like that. most of the targets of opportunity in my AO are undet 75 yards.

 

[Koshy]

Re: Low Distance Scope Dilemma, Please Help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will soon have a Bushnell Elite 4200 6-24x50 Tactical for sale. Great glass for the price, has all of the other trimming you seek.

You could also look at the Trijicon 1-4x24 (30mm tube). GREAT glass a great reticle (I have the Green Triangle, though they do offer others as well). </div></div>

With the Trijicon though I would be dealing with Parallax yes? And when shooting 0.5" targets at 20 yards... somehow I think I could have some issues.

Thanks,
- Koshy

 

[eleaf]

Re: Low Distance Scope Dilemma, Please Help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Koshy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will soon have a Bushnell Elite 4200 6-24x50 Tactical for sale. Great glass for the price, has all of the other trimming you seek.

You could also look at the Trijicon 1-4x24 (30mm tube). GREAT glass a great reticle (I have the Green Triangle, though they do offer others as well). </div></div>

With the Trijicon though I would be dealing with Parallax yes? And when shooting 0.5" targets at 20 yards... somehow I think I could have some issues.

Thanks,
- Koshy </div></div>

20 yards is the sweet spot on this scope. Along with anywhere from about 5' to 300 yards.

Trijicon glass is as clear as it gets. Great stuff.

 

[Koshy]

Re: Low Distance Scope Dilemma, Please Help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Koshy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will soon have a Bushnell Elite 4200 6-24x50 Tactical for sale. Great glass for the price, has all of the other trimming you seek.

You could also look at the Trijicon 1-4x24 (30mm tube). GREAT glass a great reticle (I have the Green Triangle, though they do offer others as well). </div></div>

With the Trijicon though I would be dealing with Parallax yes? And when shooting 0.5" targets at 20 yards... somehow I think I could have some issues.

Thanks,
- Koshy </div></div>

20 yards is the sweet spot on this scope. Along with anywhere from about 5' to 300 yards.

Trijicon glass is as clear as it gets. Great stuff. </div></div>

Not to offend you, but do you know what Parallax is? If you are magnifying an image, parallax comes into play... if your "image" isn't perfectly centered in the frame of the scope then even if you have the center of the crosshairs on the target, your shot will miss where you aimed. The whole point of Parallax adjustment, is to keep the sight "image" dead center, whether you move your head to the left or right... thus always keeping your shot on target.

So if you don't have Parallax can you explain to me how it is able to accomplish "dead on" shots at 20 yards?

Thanks,
- Koshy

 

[ewoaf]

Re: Low Distance Scope Dilemma, Please Help

1" spacers for your 34mm rings..same center line...and height

 

[Koshy]

Re: Low Distance Scope Dilemma, Please Help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ewoaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1" spacers for your 34mm rings..same center line...and height </div></div>

Will do thanks! Accuracy International has a mount with spacers to take you from 34mm all the way down to 26mm (1")

LaRue has different sizes available to, with same mount height, unfortunatly they don't export to Canada.

But I'm sure the AI's will be just fine (hopes)...

Thanks,
- Koshy

 

[eleaf]

Re: Low Distance Scope Dilemma, Please Help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Koshy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Koshy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will soon have a Bushnell Elite 4200 6-24x50 Tactical for sale. Great glass for the price, has all of the other trimming you seek.

You could also look at the Trijicon 1-4x24 (30mm tube). GREAT glass a great reticle (I have the Green Triangle, though they do offer others as well). </div></div>

With the Trijicon though I would be dealing with Parallax yes? And when shooting 0.5" targets at 20 yards... somehow I think I could have some issues.

Thanks,
- Koshy </div></div>

20 yards is the sweet spot on this scope. Along with anywhere from about 5' to 300 yards.

Trijicon glass is as clear as it gets. Great stuff. </div></div>

Not to offend you, but do you know what Parallax is? If you are magnifying an image, parallax comes into play... if your "image" isn't perfectly centered in the frame of the scope then even if you have the center of the crosshairs on the target, your shot will miss where you aimed. The whole point of Parallax adjustment, is to keep the sight "image" dead center, whether you move your head to the left or right... thus always keeping your shot on target.

So if you don't have Parallax can you explain to me how it is able to accomplish "dead on" shots at 20 yards?

Thanks,
- Koshy </div></div>

Yes. I know what parallax is. It is fuzzyish on the edges at extremely close range, after that we're good.

 

[Koshy]

Re: Low Distance Scope Dilemma, Please Help

Actually no, it causes the crosshairs to move when moving your head left/right or up/down. This can cause a very inaccurate shot if the crosshair isn't lined up perfectly inside of the tube.

Good news is, I got to try an ACOG and a EOTech last night... whats cool about the ACOG is that even though it has magnification it is parallax free so doesn't matter where your head is ^^

Thanks,
- Koshy

 

[fdkay]

Re: Low Distance Scope Dilemma, Please Help

Here you go.

http://www.opticsbestbuy.com/Docter-Clas...icle-56301.html

 

[Ratbert]

Re: Low Distance Scope Dilemma, Please Help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Koshy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Good news is, I got to try an ACOG and a EOTech last night... whats cool about the ACOG is that even though it has magnification it is parallax free so doesn't matter where your head is ^^
</div></div>

Who sold you that line?



To the OP, take a look at a Falcon 4-14. It sets up very similar to a PH 3-15 (reticle is even a GenII rip-off) but adjusts parallax down to 10m. I use it on my 22LR trainer and for that it is great.

 

[Ratbert]

Re: Low Distance Scope Dilemma, Please Help

Oh and just because there appears to be confusion...

Parallax is the phenomenon wherein the subjective relationship between two different objects on two different focal planes (distances from viewer) is dependent on the position of the viewer.

As an example. Take two posts, stick one in the ground 10' in front of you and another in the ground 5' directly behind that. Stand so that you are directly in line with them. Now if you shot your Han Solo laser blaster through the first post you'd hit the post behind it as well. Perfect, we can use the front stake as an aimpoint to hit the rear stake. Now walk 5' to your left and look at the first stake. The 2nd stake no longer appears to be directly behind it, if you shot at the first stake you'd miss the 2nd by a very wide margin in fact. This is parallax. Because the two stakes are two different distances from the target how they align is dependent on where you the viewer are standing in relation to them.

In a scope, your reticle is the front stake and your target is the rear stake. In a "fixed parallax" scope the front stake cannot be moved. However as you move the rear stake forwards (longer range target) and backwards (closer target) the effect of the parallax increases and decreases. In fact when the target stake and the reticle stake are at the same distance there is no parallax at all. This is why fixed parallax scopes will be listed as "parallax free @ xxx yards." That is the range at which the target image and the reticle image are on the same plane. Any other distance and parallax is an issue.

In an adjustable parallax scope you can move the front stake forward and backwards too, so that (if you make the effort) you can ALWAYS have the two stakes on the same plane and never have any issue with parallax.

Note, also, that if you were to always, 100% of the time stand directly behind the two stakes so that they stayed perfectly aligned (never straying left or right) then parallax is also a non issue. The question is can you do that consistently enough in all shooting positions?

For added fun, do some mental exercises where you imagine the effect of having a fixed parallax scope at different ranges. How much error would be introduced for targets at close and long ranges if the target stake were 40' or 90' or 600' away?

 

[Koshy]

Re: Low Distance Scope Dilemma, Please Help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Koshy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Good news is, I got to try an ACOG and a EOTech last night... whats cool about the ACOG is that even though it has magnification it is parallax free so doesn't matter where your head is ^^
</div></div>

Who sold you that line?



To the OP, take a look at a Falcon 4-14. It sets up very similar to a PH 3-15 (reticle is even a GenII rip-off) but adjusts parallax down to 10m. I use it on my 22LR trainer and for that it is great.

</div></div>

Thanks for the info on the Falcon, I will for sure check it out.

As for the Parallax "line". When I was looking through it I was like boy it doesn't look like it is moving, so it doesn't have Parallax issues? He was like, nope it is Parallax free. So was he wrong?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh and just because there appears to be confusion...

Parallax is the phenomenon wherein the subjective relationship between two different objects on two different focal planes (distances from viewer) is dependent on the position of the viewer.

As an example. Take two posts, stick one in the ground 10' in front of you and another in the ground 5' directly behind that. Stand so that you are directly in line with them. Now if you shot your Han Solo laser blaster through the first post you'd hit the post behind it as well. Perfect, we can use the front stake as an aimpoint to hit the rear stake. Now walk 5' to your left and look at the first stake. The 2nd stake no longer appears to be directly behind it, if you shot at the first stake you'd miss the 2nd by a very wide margin in fact. This is parallax. Because the two stakes are two different distances from the target how they align is dependent on where you the viewer are standing in relation to them.

In a scope, your reticle is the front stake and your target is the rear stake. In a "fixed parallax" scope the front stake cannot be moved. However as you move the rear stake forwards (longer range target) and backwards (closer target) the effect of the parallax increases and decreases. In fact when the target stake and the reticle stake are at the same distance there is no parallax at all. This is why fixed parallax scopes will be listed as "parallax free @ xxx yards." That is the range at which the target image and the reticle image are on the same plane. Any other distance and parallax is an issue.

In an adjustable parallax scope you can move the front stake forward and backwards too, so that (if you make the effort) you can ALWAYS have the two stakes on the same plane and never have any issue with parallax.

Note, also, that if you were to always, 100% of the time stand directly behind the two stakes so that they stayed perfectly aligned (never straying left or right) then parallax is also a non issue. The question is can you do that consistently enough in all shooting positions?

For added fun, do some mental exercises where you imagine the effect of having a fixed parallax scope at different ranges. How much error would be introduced for targets at close and long ranges if the target stake were 40' or 90' or 600' away? </div></div>

Thanks for that analogy, a lot better then the way I was explaining it, I'm just happy I understood the concept properly

Thanks,
- Koshy

 

[Ratbert]

Re: Low Distance Scope Dilemma, Please Help

First question, did you mean to say the <span style="font-weight: bold">EoTech</span> was parallax free (red dot hollogram) rather than the <span style="font-weight: bold">ACOG</span> (3-4x mini-scope) ? Many people think the EoTech is parallax free, however even it has SOME perceivable parallax error at very close ranges.

The ACOG 3-4x scope will also only be truely parallax free at a single yardage, however at lower magnifications it is much more difficult to discern (and much less need to worry about) than at higher magnifications.

The ACOG and EoTech are not designed to hit 0.5" dots (at ANY range) they are 2-3MOA battle sights intended to hit center mass at a broad variety of ranges with a priority on minimum fuss and maximum reliability. They're great for what are intended for but that game is not target shooting.

 

[Koshy]

Re: Low Distance Scope Dilemma, Please Help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">First question, did you mean to say the <span style="font-weight: bold">EoTech</span> was parallax free (red dot hollogram) rather than the <span style="font-weight: bold">ACOG</span> (3-4x mini-scope) ? Many people think the EoTech is parallax free, however even it has SOME perceivable parallax error at very close ranges.

The ACOG 3-4x scope will also only be truely parallax free at a single yardage, however at lower magnifications it is much more difficult to discern (and much less need to worry about) than at higher magnifications.

The ACOG and EoTech are not designed to hit 0.5" dots (at ANY range) they are 2-3MOA battle sights intended to hit center mass at a broad variety of ranges with a priority on minimum fuss and maximum reliability. They're great for what are intended for but that game is not target shooting. </div></div>

No I did mean to say ACOG. But from my understanding, it isn't Parallax that is the problem on a 1x EOTech it is the mounting of it, and the fact that the dot is "Projected" out like 20 feet or something, thus if shooting in really close accuracy can be a minor problem (I say minor because if it is used for normal applications, what do you care if you hit the chest an inch low/high?).

What do you think of Aimpoint? Have you had any experience with them, or feelings about their product?

Thanks,
- Koshy

 

[Ratbert]

Re: Low Distance Scope Dilemma, Please Help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Koshy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">First question, did you mean to say the <span style="font-weight: bold">EoTech</span> was parallax free (red dot hollogram) rather than the <span style="font-weight: bold">ACOG</span> (3-4x mini-scope) ? Many people think the EoTech is parallax free, however even it has SOME perceivable parallax error at very close ranges.

The ACOG 3-4x scope will also only be truely parallax free at a single yardage, however at lower magnifications it is much more difficult to discern (and much less need to worry about) than at higher magnifications.

The ACOG and EoTech are not designed to hit 0.5" dots (at ANY range) they are 2-3MOA battle sights intended to hit center mass at a broad variety of ranges with a priority on minimum fuss and maximum reliability. They're great for what are intended for but that game is not target shooting. </div></div>

No I did mean to say ACOG. But from my understanding, it isn't Parallax that is the problem on a 1x EOTech it is the mounting of it, and the fact that the dot is "Projected" out like 20 feet or something, thus if shooting in really close accuracy can be a minor problem (I say minor because if it is used for normal applications, what do you care if you hit the chest an inch low/high?).

What do you think of Aimpoint? Have you had any experience with them, or feelings about their product?

</div></div>

I've got a couple of Micro T1's I like because I can leave them always on and they're nice and small and light... but asking me about which combat optic to buy is like asking the ticket taker at the hockey game what kind of skates to buy.