I have plenty of legitimate rifles so I'm playing with parts I bought during the last panic to build a gamer gun. I have a SA AGB pushing a 8.2oz BCG and 3oz CAR buffer over a Springco Yellow. I threw that buffer in because it was the lightest I had but want to try something lower. Is there a general consensus that there is a bottom end on total reciprocating mass or can you generally go to a 1oz buffer as long as it's reliable. It's currently soft shooting but I'm trying to push the limit.
- Thread starter KineticPerformance
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My opinion is it narrows your selection of ammo or loads that will reliable cycle without readjusting the AGB. KAK makes a configurable buffer kit, but the lowest it goes with 3 aluminum weights is 1.7oz, so you would be using an empty buffer for 1.0oz. Take out your weights and give it a shot.
No, no bottom limit. I've got a rifle with an empty buffer and 4 rifles with the Taccom delrin buffer that weighs .6oz and I've even tested with no buffer just out of curiosity.
The adjustment window is wider than I would've guessed, the 4 delrin buffer rifles are all adjusted to lock back using a 55gr @ 2650fps load and are only mildly overgassed with my 77gr/2700 and 69gr/2800fps loads, and among those rifles are mid, intermediate, rifle and rifle +1" gas systems. So yeah, it works a lot better than the internet would have you believe.
Cool, I'll give it a shot
Just ordered one of these, just for funsies: https://unrivaledproshop.com/product/2-stage-dead-blow-buffer-udb-m4-c/
Seems similar to the JP SCS concept but lighter and with magnetic witchcraft.
Seems similar to the JP SCS concept but lighter and with magnetic witchcraft.
Light weight is all the rage now and it works but you start making your rifle finicky and end up needing things like an AGB, etc.
I heard something Jim Sullivan said and ended up going the opposite way and drastically increasing the weight of my reciprocating parts. It worked great and it's dead nuts reliable.
Just a thought. He said that if you want to increase reliability, increase the weight of your reciprocating parts.
I heard something Jim Sullivan said and ended up going the opposite way and drastically increasing the weight of my reciprocating parts. It worked great and it's dead nuts reliable.
Just a thought. He said that if you want to increase reliability, increase the weight of your reciprocating parts.
Like I said, I have lots of reliable guns and this is a gamer gun I'm experimenting with.
Let me know how it works out because it didn't have much info
Will do. I've never been super impressed with the JP SCS, but I'm a sucker for guys that put a ton of energy into muzzle brake design, so I figured I'd try the buffer system while I try their brake.
Low mass isn't the way to get the best recoil impulse. They become to snappy and almost apways bottom out way harsher in the buffer tube.
Amphibian did a good write up on hydraulic buffers. Rb5005 in an a5 RE.
But even without that. Let's say you want to run an H2. Throw in an LMT E carrier, lmt 308 RE, tubbs flat wire and an a5h2. Way, way, way less recoil. The hydraulic takes it to a whole northern level.
While the low mass makes it snappy, fast and shortens the recoil impulse. I played around with setups like this for over a year changing anything I could. Never found anything half as good, even cutting gas with an agb that wouldn't lock back.
I set my optics rifle up "reverse dampened" way back when (closing in on 15 years ago now?).
I never weighed the buffer, I didn't really care, I was going by feel and results. I thought about taking them all out, but it worked well, shot flat and was reliable, so I didn't want to push it. I think there's just one weight in it, but I don't really remember.
Sort of "old tech" now since there are lighter carriers on the market and other buffer systems made.
Adjustable gas, rifle length buffer tube, Young light weight bolt/carrier, stubby reduced weight buffer, Enidine hydraulic buffer backwards at the back of the tube. So you get the soft squish of the enidine without the reciprocating mass.
One of those tiny increments all adding up kind of things.
I never weighed the buffer, I didn't really care, I was going by feel and results. I thought about taking them all out, but it worked well, shot flat and was reliable, so I didn't want to push it. I think there's just one weight in it, but I don't really remember.
Sort of "old tech" now since there are lighter carriers on the market and other buffer systems made.
Adjustable gas, rifle length buffer tube, Young light weight bolt/carrier, stubby reduced weight buffer, Enidine hydraulic buffer backwards at the back of the tube. So you get the soft squish of the enidine without the reciprocating mass.
One of those tiny increments all adding up kind of things.
Disagree on all accounts. And even if the feel is snappy that's besides the point. The sights move less and fast pairs on paper have significantly less dispersion. That's what matters. I've got a whole pile of low mass rifles that might feel snappy to some but I can shoot a .14 second split on 40 yard paper and trust that the holes are within 3" of each other. Show me a full mass rifle that will do that. I'll wait. I've tried it so I know I'll be waiting for a while.
While maybe you found a low mass that works for you, dosent sound like you tried the other end of the spectrum. You should before dismissing it. Your missing out.
I did. It can't hang. How far apart are your holes on paper at a given distance? How far does the dot rise above POA in recoil? Can you track horizontally across a plate rack with no vertical correction needed?
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More weight slamming into battery is going to move the rifle more. That's just how things work.
Before you could judge a set of days off of that, you would need the same shooter, ammo, day, rifle and even then would have a bunch of other variables to account for.
Yup. Done it.
As far as forward movement I would agree here. But that reward movement bottoming out was super harsh. Would lighter not move faster?
Correct. But low bolt speed can have a soft perceived recoil impulse, which tricks people into thinking overall softness is the same as high performance.
I have an all purpose lower with an H buffer in it that I use for .22lr, 5.56, 300B & 6.5G. When I use the "regular" .223 uppers/carriers and the H buffer I'm always shocked how slow and sluggish they feel compared to my other stuff. I understand why people think they recoil less though, because it's that slow long impulse, that delayed spread out recoil. If I had to describe the feel as a sound and try to write it.... lol the recoil impulse with the full carriers and H buffer go "bluh-blump!" The race uppers go "Blp!" (and very loudly) 
As a side note, I use the term "adjustable gas" but don't really mean it. Really "turned down" gas. You adjust it setting up the rifle and then leave it alone. Heck I even replaced the barrel once and didn't re-tune it afterwards. People read adjustable gas and think it's something that needs to be fiddled with to keep the rifle working, that's not the case. We're not talking about with and with a suppressor type thing, this is set and forget.
My one unreliable trick gimmicky gamer gun race upper has been the most reliable upper I've ever owned, fewer issues than all the many other uppers I've owned combined, with many many many times more rounds through it than all the others combined. (and that includes shooting it with a greased bolt carrier like I always do, with temps in the teens)
My one unreliable trick gimmicky gamer gun race upper has been the most reliable upper I've ever owned, fewer issues than all the many other uppers I've owned combined, with many many many times more rounds through it than all the others combined. (and that includes shooting it with a greased bolt carrier like I always do, with temps in the teens)
Yup. Full mass AR's remind me of AK's. You can actually feel the rifle cycling and the BCG changing directions. The rotational component is also a lot more noticeable, the rifle actually twists on return to battery.
Although this video shows recoil reduction for his various brakes, it would be interesting to use a similar test sled to show the effects of mass on recoil of a AR.
Yes, it's faster. If I hit you with a 100mph wiffle ball it'll sting but not change your life. If a 40mph brick hits you it might not feel snappy but it's gonna be moving some things.
These videos show some very low mass fast cycling setups. You could call them snappy if you like but it's hard to when there really isn't any recoil.
Most of the movement you see is my phone moving from the blast.
Did you try your low mass setups with carbine gas? Because that is definitely a snappy that is hard to tame.
There are a number of gas blocks designed for quick, tool-less adjustments. Seekens Select, Strike Collar and the Riflespeed to name a few. They're not limited to suppressed/unsuppressed applications.As a side note, I use the term "adjustable gas" but don't really mean it. Really "turned down" gas. You adjust it setting up the rifle and then leave it alone. Heck I even replaced the barrel once and didn't re-tune it afterwards. People read adjustable gas and think it's something that needs to be fiddled with to keep the rifle working, that's not the case. We're not talking about with and with a suppressor type thing, this is set and forget.
My one unreliable trick gimmicky gamer gun race upper has been the most reliable upper I've ever owned, fewer issues than all the many other uppers I've owned combined, with many many many times more rounds through it than all the others combined. (and that includes shooting it with a greased bolt carrier like I always do, with temps in the teens)
Yes. And you don't need them for this application.
Yes, but that's not really the application being discussed here. And even if they make on the fly adjustments possible it doesn't mean that you should be dicking with your gas settings all the time.
Apologies, I took your "side note" I quoted as a general statement, and not specific to the OP/application.
No reason you couldn't use them, but there are certainly cheaper options considering you'll probably never use it post setup.
It only needs to move fast enough to cycle the action reliably with adjustable gas. It's moving less mass and therefore less energy. Why would one end of the cycle be worse?
OP, I'm running a lightweight BCG, CAR buffer with no weights, and Sprinco yellow myself on a play gun. No problem as long as you have an AGB or gas key.
What springs do you use?
I have Sprinco yellows, but am thing of cutting coils off some cheapo springs. See how much can be removed to have it fail to cycle (strip and chamber a round), then cut a new one with a few more coils.
At one point when I was doing some serious testing I had the full range of Sprincos. But most of my guns ended up with the Taccom -10% springs just because I ordered them with the ULW buffer. I tested it against the Sprinco yellow (-20%) and I liked the yellow for light loads but didn't like it with the occasional use of 75-77gr ammo.
200 rounds on it now. It almost feels slightly snappier than a conventional spring/buffer setup. Not in a recoil way, but in a dot returning to POA way. It's hard to explain, I like it but doubt I'll see it in my scores. If the BCG returning to battery with a normal buffer system feels like slamming a Honda door shut the Unrivaled system is like closing a Mercedes Benz door. They both have the same end result and function, but one feels slightly rubbery while the other is like vault door.
Compared to the TACCOM 3 Stage or LW, do you like one over the other so far, or are you lumping them into "normal buffer system" because they aren't capture or use magnets?
I've only ever used the Taccom 3 stage in a PCC, not a rifle caliber gun so I can't comment on that. But yes, I'm lumping the ULW buffers in with standard stuff when I say "conventional systems".
I think I will end up liking it a lot, it's too early to say just yet. The downside is that it's about 4x the price of the Taccom spring/buffer, so it'll be costly to equip all my game guns with one.
Also, the brake is fantastic, even though it may be the ugliest one on the market.
I've already got springs for the ULW so I'll probably get that one since you can't say definitively one is better than the other. I'm primarily a long gun guy who dabbles in burn it down matches but occasionally I get the bug in my ass.
As an interim solution I took the weights out of the buffer (1oz now) and timed the gas for M193. It's very soft shooting and reliably running for a couple hundred rounds now.
I still need to accuracy test it. The original configuration was shooting just over 1 MoA for 10-shots with 77gn ammo which is now a little bouncy.
This isn’t the question being asked by OP, but I’m curious how well this translates to a suppressed “working rifle” where these types of results are desired, but reliability (e.g. fouling, operation across wide temperate ranges) is paramount.
Heavy buffer and more spring = more reliable operation of a fouled/non-ideal operating environment is how I’ve traditionally seen it discussed, but I know the race guns are running less mass, less gas, etc.
I can't answer the question directly as it relates to suppressors, as I don't have any. I wish I could, and I'd be interested to hear from someone who has tried a low mass suppressed gun.
I do have a couple rifles set up for HD/truck gun stuff that use mil-spec ish components and they are reliable, but they shoot less than 500 rounds a year while my main match gun was 10k> pre rona, so I don't have equal amounts of data in both directions. My match rifle with all it's low mass components is just as reliable with the caveat that I actually wear parts out in that vs. the HD guns that will never wear out. I shoot all my game guns in sub zero temps and 100+ and they all work at both extremes. I don't really clean them either, pretty much just keep dumping Mobil 1 in.
I keep records of all my malfunctions in game guns, I don't have them in front of me but they say things like: gas rings smoked, cam pin broke, aluminum carriers = bad idea, trigger spring broke, extractor hook worn away, extractor spring weak, things like that. So basically wear items wearing out or in the case of aluminum carriers, an experiment that had poor and somewhat expected results.
No failures that I would directly attribute to the weight of reciprocating mass. Speaking of which, the people saying they're unreliable never say how or in what way they fail. They just parrot the conventional wisdom, and I would guess it's because they've never even tried the setup they're denigrating.
Gas fouling from suppressors isn't a big deal and it's similar to a optimally gassed full mass system since much of the fouling would occur from improper timing and residual gas come back through the bore. The biggest problem is when your timing is so finely tuned and combined with ammo that is affected by the environmental conditions, particularly temperature, that extreme temperature changes will throw your timing out.
If you run it slightly less optimized (give it a little extra gas, not a lot, but a little), you get more gas fouling. However, all this would apply equally to a full mass system suppressed or unsuppressed. The extra little gas fouling isn't enough to stop either system from cycling within the limits of the amount of ammo a person would normally carry or even 5x what a person would carry, assuming everything is properly lubricated.
The longest I've gone without "cleaning" for low mass is 1,800ish (might've been high 1,700) rounds without cleaning. All I did was squirt some Breakfree CLP on the cam pin slot and exterior of the BCG every 210rds right before loading all my mags.
There's the unknown variable from external fouling (sand, dirt, clay, etc.) that would cause more kinetic friction. The thing that complicates the simplified thought of F=ma would be spring compression and stored energy. Would a compressed spring of the same strength rating and compressed the same amount, impart more force to a lower mass object than a heavier mass object? I think so. If you reduce spring weight rating with the low mass system so that's equal in proportion to a full mass with standard weight spring then I suspect equal performance. Someone smarter than me would have to dissect this.
We've all got a cross to bear, lol.
Yup. That's what happens when you put you're roots down deep in a shithole state before you are particularly interested in firearms or freedom.
That said, every time I shoot with a suppressor I wonder what all the fuss is about.
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A bee doesn't explain to a fly why honey is better than shit.
But seriously, it just make shooting all around more enjoyable.
Been running JP LMOS for years, been very happy and that shit is quick, should be running a adjustable gas block Ofcourse.
If I'd have had one forty years ago, I think I'd being say "what?" a lot less in conversations today.
Meh. Anytime I'm shooting a rifle I'm probably shooting a shotgun and pistol also. Having 33% suppressed guns doesn't sound all that special. Anytime I'm shooting for score there are dozens or even hundreds of people shooting unsuppressed nearby, so noise is a given.
Maybe. I spend way more time around heavy machinery, nail guns, saws etc. than I do around guns. My hearing is screwed no matter what.
I shot it for precision this evening and nothing changed: from a CAR buffer to 1oz buffer, with gas re-tuned, it's still a 1 MoA gun. It's still reliable: shoulder fired, hip fired, and two hand pistol fired.
Now, I just need to compare two muzzle devices because the Kahntrol had more bounce than I'm used to seeing from it.
Now, I just need to compare two muzzle devices because the Kahntrol had more bounce than I'm used to seeing from it.
I'm really starting to dig tunable comps these days. It's pretty cool to fiddle around with screws and magically end up with zero muzzle rise.
Silent capture spring
