Lowering my ES with VARGET

[wisam]

For a while, my main target load in my .308 has been 45.5 grains of varget and a 168 smk. The groups are fantastic, but the ES is 40-50 fps. Predictably, the groups fall apart after 400 yards.

I get an ES of 10-15 fps with IMR 4350, but it only shoots ¾ moa. I’m hopeing to get the best of both worlds and get the ES down with the VARGET.

I'd like to get the ES down to 20fps or less and I'm wondering how the following things rank in terms of importance. Again, I'm happy with the groups Varget is shooting and I'm just looking to get the ES down.

1. Switching to BR or match primers. Right now, I'm using standard CCI primers.

2. Primer pocket uniforming

3. Weighing brass

4. Neck turning. I'm not sure if this would help the ES or not, but would it help keep neck tension more uniform?

 

[blklabs]

Re: Lowering my ES with VARGET

Start by telling us about your load development process.

 

[vman]

Re: Lowering my ES with VARGET

Change to BR primers. Might not make a difference, but if it does its an easy fix.

Sort our your brass by weight and number of firings.

If you can anneal the necks do so.

How accurate are your powder charges?


Perform a ladder test. Imo a good node has very little muzzle velocity variation. So perhaps what you believe to be a good load isnt actually a good load... especially if they fall apart at 400 yards which isnt all that far.

Perform a ladder test over a chrony. You will notice a node produces similar MV and similar vertical dispersion.

 

[wisam]

Re: Lowering my ES with VARGET

I do weigh every charge and sort brass by firings. I don't weigh brass, but I'll give it a try.

As for load development, I work up in 1/2 grain increments to the max load. With the varget, I also tried .2 grain increments when I got close, but the best I could get was 40fps. I worked up loads with bergers and smk's. The SMK was more accurate for me. I haven't really played with seating depth, but if I understand correctly, that would be more of an accuracy thing than an ES issue right????

I use a precision style micrometer bullet seater, but a standard RCBS neck sizer die.

 

[Leaddog]

Re: Lowering my ES with VARGET

SD's are a more reliable measurement of your loads. What are you getting?

Neck turning a .308 is not necessary. Neck turning is for benchrest rifle chambers that are very tight. The .308 is not.

 

[cmh2007]

Re: Lowering my ES with VARGET

i found that i had to jack my powder charge up with varget to get it to settle down

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: Lowering my ES with VARGET

must i show THE picture yet again......?

 

[jeep505090]

Re: Lowering my ES with VARGET

The br-2's and Fed 210's worked very well for my reloading process/ reloads and im sure others, try either and im sure you will notice a drop in es, maybe not night and day as their could be other factors but a drop you will see.

 

[Trovan]

Re: Lowering my ES with VARGET

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">must i show THE picture yet again......? </div></div>

Please do. It's a work of art.

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: Lowering my ES with VARGET

i do soo much for the un-washed......

 

[GardDog]

Re: Lowering my ES with VARGET

Is that shag carpet under the Equus hide?

 

[MALLARD]

Re: Lowering my ES with VARGET

you could sort and meplat trim your bullets , that would probably help alittle. Why not just switch to the 4350 if ES is lower ? If you did more to lower your ES with varget, those same measures would just make the 4350 seem even more appealing, dont you think ? You could look into a different powder all together.

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: Lowering my ES with VARGET

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GardDog223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is that shag carpet under the Equus hide?</div></div>





....don't think so.....

 

[vman]

Re: Lowering my ES with VARGET

Meplat trimming wont do anything.

Getting MV consistent is related to consistent pressure.

Step back and think about what you need to keep the same every firing to get MV to stay consistent.

- Chamber dimensions (remains the same)
- brass case internal volume (sort this by weight and firings)
- Minimal sizing (cases arent always expanding out a significant amount)
- Primer ignition (Primer seating depth and ignition consistency)
- Powder charge (each charge is identical to the next and more importantly in the middle of a node)
- Seating depth consistency


Wisam, im reading that you think groups are fantastic, yet they fall apart at 400... you my friend need to change your way of thinking about accuracy. Good loads are masked at short ranges by crappy loads, thus a crap group at 400 that shoots well at 100 is not a good group. Its a crap load. A good load is considered good because it does one thing really well, and that is MV remains constant. This shows up at 100 all the way until the bullet goes subsonic. At 100 yards MV variation is masked by very little drop because the distance is so short... but at 400 yards it starts to show more. At 1000 yards you wont even make it on paper with consistency.

In saying this I think you need to step back and re-evaluate your load development process.

Go and read up on ladder testing and perform that test out at 400 yards. Provided you do your part you will then find a load that gives you ES under 20, even better under 10. Its not hard to do and gives fantastic results.

Varget cannot be blamed for a crappy ES... load development can be.

 

[wisam]

Re: Lowering my ES with VARGET

One thing I can't figure out is that the IMR 4350 has an ES of 10-20 fps using the same brass with the same prep. I'd use it as my go to load, but it only shoots 3/4 MOA. The nice thing is that it will hold 3/4 MOA untill 500 or so and maybe 1/5 to 800. The Varget is much more accurite until 400 or so. For the last year or so, I've been using the Varget for short range shooting and 4350 for longer ranges.

It sounds like based on the information I've gotten, I need to start doing the following things.

1. start weighing brass
2. Try match or BR primers
3. Partial neck sizing??? (I think that is what vman meant by minimal sizing)

I'll try all of these things, but I'm just curious if any of these items are more critical with Varget then IMR 4350.

By the way Leaddog Varget is getting me a SD in the hight 20's

 

[427Cobra]

Re: Lowering my ES with VARGET

Ok let's take this from the beginning
1.Uniform the primer pockets, I use a Sinclair because it's non adjustable
2.Deburr the flash hole, I use the Sinclair gen2 tool, the stop is right above the cutter so it's impossible to cut too deep or not enough
3. Seat your primers until you feel them stop, and maybe a cunt hair of crush
4. Measure your charge to the exact desired charge, a Prometheus helps a lot but a tuned 1010 scale by Scott Parker will work almost as good
5. Find out where pressure is then back the charge off .3-.5
6. Disregard new brass ES/SD, once fired and on will be much more consistent due to it being formed to the chamber
7. Only brush your necks out to get the big stuff out, the carbon acts as a lube and aids in seating and release, if you are using SS media to clean your necks some sort of dry lube maybe needed

There are so many more things that can help reduce ES/SD, if you are doing most if not all the things above start changing one thing at a time to see if that makes any difference, Varget is the best powder for the 308, 4350 is nowhere close

 

[Notso]

Re: Lowering my ES with VARGET

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Meplat trimming wont do anything.

Getting MV consistent is related to consistent pressure.

Step back and think about what you need to keep the same every firing to get MV to stay consistent.

- Chamber dimensions (remains the same)
- brass case internal volume (sort this by weight and firings)
- Minimal sizing (cases arent always expanding out a significant amount)
- Primer ignition (Primer seating depth and ignition consistency)
- Powder charge (each charge is identical to the next and more importantly in the middle of a node)
- Seating depth consistency


Wisam, im reading that you think groups are fantastic, yet they fall apart at 400... you my friend need to change your way of thinking about accuracy. Good loads are masked at short ranges by crappy loads, thus a crap group at 400 that shoots well at 100 is not a good group. Its a crap load. A good load is considered good because it does one thing really well, and that is MV remains constant. This shows up at 100 all the way until the bullet goes subsonic. At 100 yards MV variation is masked by very little drop because the distance is so short... but at 400 yards it starts to show more. At 1000 yards you wont even make it on paper with consistency.

In saying this I think you need to step back and re-evaluate your load development process.

Go and read up on ladder testing and perform that test out at 400 yards. Provided you do your part you will then find a load that gives you ES under 20, even better under 10. Its not hard to do and gives fantastic results.

Varget cannot be blamed for a crappy ES... load development can be. </div></div>
Totally agree with the above. It sounds like the OP simply hasn't found the correct node for his Varget load yet. Ladder test again at 300-400 yds to find that node.