LPVO advice

[Matno]

Looking for an LPVO and trying to make some decisions. Went to the local shop today and tried out a limited sample and was pretty blown away by the old "you get what you pay for" concept. Tried a couple $400 Riton scopes - could barely see across the store no matter how I adjusted them. Switched to a $950 Trijicon and was impressed but not blown away. The highest they had was a $1400 Leupold VX-6. Definitely blown away by the glass! Eye relief, eye box, clarity, etc were MUCH better than any of the others, but a duplex reticle?! Seriously Leupold?

So here are my questions:
What scopes have glass comparable to the VX6, but with a more "functional" reticle? Needs to have a true 1x at the low end, and minimum of 6x at the high end. (Interestingly the Leupold at 6x had noticeably more magnification than the Trijicon. Also interesting was that all 4 scopes I looked at had less than 1x at the low end - as in I had to increase the mag slightly to match my non magnified eye. Thought that was weird).

Any thoughts on the Primary Arms Platinum series? I like the ACSS reticle a lot, and I'm a total FFP convert, including for an LPVO, but I don't know of a local dealer for a hands on eval to compare glass. Willing to consider other reticles, but strongly prefer FFP with some sort of daylight bright illuminated circle. BDC is okay since this is for max 500 yards, but MIL is fine too. Not really interested in MOA.

Recommendations?

 

[Maverick3009]

I've been doing a lot of research lately on the same topic as I'm in the market for a LPVO for my .300blk SBR build. I, like you, love FFP reticles however, I've realized that depending on the reticle, they're less than ideal for an LPVO up to 6x (they make a little more sense up to 8x/10x). The reason being that when you've got a reticle with a center dot at 1x when you zoom in the 6x, you've now got that dot taking up a chunk of your precise aiming point at 100, functional but not ideal for precise shots. That being said I've become open to getting a SFP scope for these particular uses.

All that being said I ultimately narrowed it down to the Nightforce NX8 1-8x24(FFP) or the Kahles K16i 1-6x24 (SFP). I'm currently leaning towards the Kahles as many have said it has possibly the clearest glass on the market and it has an enormous FOV at 1x, something like 139ft. A lot of people also say that the eyebox is extremely forgiving so that's a plus too. I'm keeping an eye out for one of these right now, Eurooptic has a demo for 1700 for I'm hoping to save a few more bucks then that, I already went over budget building the rifle

 

[Adkhunter3]

Razor Gen III

 

[KineticPerformance]

I've had the Trijicon, Vortex, and currently the ATACR and am moving to the k16i or k18i (leaning towards the 1-6x).

 

[Moose]

Vortex Gen2-e 1x6 I had the K16i and prefer the razor.

 

[fdkay]

Looking for an LPVO and trying to make some decisions. Went to the local shop today and tried out a limited sample and was pretty blown away by the old "you get what you pay for" concept. Tried a couple $400 Riton scopes - could barely see across the store no matter how I adjusted them. Switched to a $950 Trijicon and was impressed but not blown away. The highest they had was a $1400 Leupold VX-6. Definitely blown away by the glass! Eye relief, eye box, clarity, etc were MUCH better than any of the others, but a duplex reticle?! Seriously Leupold?

So here are my questions:
What scopes have glass comparable to the VX6, but with a more "functional" reticle? Needs to have a true 1x at the low end, and minimum of 6x at the high end. (Interestingly the Leupold at 6x had noticeably more magnification than the Trijicon. Also interesting was that all 4 scopes I looked at had less than 1x at the low end - as in I had to increase the mag slightly to match my non magnified eye. Thought that was weird).

Any thoughts on the Primary Arms Platinum series? I like the ACSS reticle a lot, and I'm a total FFP convert, including for an LPVO, but I don't know of a local dealer for a hands on eval to compare glass. Willing to consider other reticles, but strongly prefer FFP with some sort of daylight bright illuminated circle. BDC is okay since this is for max 500 yards, but MIL is fine too. Not really interested in MOA.

Recommendations?

First, define what you want your LPVO to do.
Is this for hunting, home defense, range toy?
There is nothing wrong with a simple duplex reticle, they work and they work well.
FFP on a low magnification scope, unless done exceedingly well, is just barely above useless.
I have a Burris RT-6, I'm pretty happy with it, the glass is surprisingly good. It is really designed for using the BDC reticle, I'm not a BDC guy, so MPBR works for me (which is why there is nothing wrong with a simple duplex reticle), it all depends on the final application.
Primary Arms platinum series are very good quality, Japanese made optics, the GLx series is well regarded as well, those are Philippine sourced.
What ends up happening when you run a FFP LPVO is you use it at 1 power and at max power, because everything in between is useless.
Sometimes you want a bit more than 1x but more field of view than max mag offers.
Looking at scopes inside a building doesn't really do justice to the products.
Check this playlist out:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRAERgkjmiuOF3EvvY8sZx37Cs5vHgDBJ

 

[Matno]

First, define what you want your LPVO to do.
Is this for hunting, home defense, range toy?
There is nothing wrong with a simple duplex reticle, they work and they work well.
FFP on a low magnification scope, unless done exceedingly well, is just barely above useless.
I have a Burris RT-6, I'm pretty happy with it, the glass is surprisingly good. It is really designed for using the BDC reticle, I'm not a BDC guy, so MPBR works for me (which is why there is nothing wrong with a simple duplex reticle), it all depends on the final application.
Primary Arms platinum series are very good quality, Japanese made optics, the GLx series is well regarded as well, those are Philippine sourced.
What ends up happening when you run a FFP LPVO is you use it at 1 power and at max power, because everything in between is useless.
Sometimes you want a bit more than 1x but more field of view than max mag offers.
Looking at scopes inside a building doesn't really do justice to the products.
Check this playlist out:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRAERgkjmiuOF3EvvY8sZx37Cs5vHgDBJ

Purpose: coyote/varmint hunting and home defense. Maybe 3 gun occasionally. (I have a similar gun with just a red dot and one with a 2.5-10 scope plus a red dot on a 45° mount, so this is mostly me wanting something different). It's a 5.56 AR.

I want something that essentially acts as a red dot at low mag and usable for quick drop compensation out to 500-600 yards at higher mag. In my experience MPBR works well out to 300 yards, but not beyond. As for the mid range of magnification, I virtually never use any scope at anything other than the minimum and maximum magnification anyway, so not an issue. My experience with handgun reticles is that a larger circle with a smaller center aiming point is dramatically faster than just a dot or a cross hair, which is why I like the concept of the ACSS.

Also my eyes aren't what they used to be, which is why I need more than a 4x and probably more than a 6x. And while I agree that testing at 75 yards inside a store is less than ideal, I feel that if there's a noticeable difference under those conditions it will be even more noticeable in low light real world conditions.

 

[Matno]

I should mention that while I like the "you get what you pay for" mantra, I don't have an unlimited budget! Was hoping to stay in the 1200-1300 range (used or new).

 

[Rerun7]

It’s hard to go wrong with the razor Gen 2-e. It’s a proven performer and one of the best in class.

The JM1 reticle works great with both xm193 and it also magically lines up with my 77gr tmk loads out to 500yds.

The 1x works well too with the dot. I’m not much slower than just using my red dot. It’s the one scope I’ve bought, shot for years and never felt like I needed to swap out to try something different. It just works.

 

[MarkCO]

Burris RT6. Best bang for the buck in LPVO. You are most welcome.

 

[fdkay]

Purpose: coyote/varmint hunting and home defense. Maybe 3 gun occasionally. (I have a similar gun with just a red dot and one with a 2.5-10 scope plus a red dot on a 45° mount, so this is mostly me wanting something different). It's a 5.56 AR.

I want something that essentially acts as a red dot at low mag and usable for quick drop compensation out to 500-600 yards at higher mag. In my experience MPBR works well out to 300 yards, but not beyond. As for the mid range of magnification, I virtually never use any scope at anything other than the minimum and maximum magnification anyway, so not an issue. My experience with handgun reticles is that a larger circle with a smaller center aiming point is dramatically faster than just a dot or a cross hair, which is why I like the concept of the ACSS.

Also my eyes aren't what they used to be, which is why I need more than a 4x and probably more than a 6x. And while I agree that testing at 75 yards inside a store is less than ideal, I feel that if there's a noticeable difference under those conditions it will be even more noticeable in low light real world conditions.

I think you would like the RT6 reticle. If you aren't dialing, it is a dandy optic.

 

[gr8fuldoug]

I have been in talks with Armament about their SAI Optics™ model SAI 6™ 1-6x24mm which looks interesting

 

[koshkin]

If you want FFP in the $1200 range, I can second Doug's recommendation of the SAI 6. It has really grown on me.

With SFP, it is hard to go wrong with Razor Gen2E from Vortex. If you want to stay in the $800 range, Delta Stryker 1-6x24 is the best bang for the buck going.

ILya

 

[Primary Arms]

Looking for an LPVO and trying to make some decisions. Went to the local shop today and tried out a limited sample and was pretty blown away by the old "you get what you pay for" concept. Tried a couple $400 Riton scopes - could barely see across the store no matter how I adjusted them. Switched to a $950 Trijicon and was impressed but not blown away. The highest they had was a $1400 Leupold VX-6. Definitely blown away by the glass! Eye relief, eye box, clarity, etc were MUCH better than any of the others, but a duplex reticle?! Seriously Leupold?

So here are my questions:
What scopes have glass comparable to the VX6, but with a more "functional" reticle? Needs to have a true 1x at the low end, and minimum of 6x at the high end. (Interestingly the Leupold at 6x had noticeably more magnification than the Trijicon. Also interesting was that all 4 scopes I looked at had less than 1x at the low end - as in I had to increase the mag slightly to match my non magnified eye. Thought that was weird).

Any thoughts on the Primary Arms Platinum series? I like the ACSS reticle a lot, and I'm a total FFP convert, including for an LPVO, but I don't know of a local dealer for a hands on eval to compare glass. Willing to consider other reticles, but strongly prefer FFP with some sort of daylight bright illuminated circle. BDC is okay since this is for max 500 yards, but MIL is fine too. Not really interested in MOA.

Recommendations?

The Platinum series would be an excellent choice for you. Many reviewers online that have attested to the clarity of the optic, and with the chevron in the center, you won't cover up anything on high magnification as the tip of the chevron provided a precise aiming point. Primary Arms Optics are covered by our 90-day Satisfaction Guarantee. Mount your scope, take it to the range and have a blast. If, within 90 days, you decide your Primary Arms branded optic will not work out for you, we’ll take it back for either a refund or store credit.

 

[Neurotic]

It’s hard to go wrong with the razor Gen 2-e. It’s a proven performer and one of the best in class.

The JM1 reticle works great with both xm193 and it also magically lines up with my 77gr tmk loads out to 500yds.

The 1x works well too with the dot. I’m not much slower than just using my red dot. It’s the one scope I’ve bought, shot for years and never felt like I needed to swap out to try something different. It just works.

FWIW, the Athlon Cronus 1-6 reticle is basically the Vortex JM-1 with wind holds. It's not as bright, but they increased the center dot size to compensate. I think it's the difference fiber optic and non-fiber optic illumination.

I wasn't a fan of the dot size, but don't understand BDC reticles without wind holds. So I chose the Cronus over the Razor.

 

[stefan73]

IMO there is no perfect LPVO, there are options and knowing what you really want to use it for/how you plan to employ it helps define what option is better for you.

There is no true 1 power either unless I missed something.

I have a Steiner M8Xi 1-8X24. SFP, fixed parallax at 100m, big eye box, nice reticle, super nice glass, very expensive and a terribly anemic illuminator for the reticle (not daylight bright, unless it is Alaskan winter daylight aka night conditions).

I looked through a Nightforce ATACR at Terry's. 1-8X24, FFP, nice glass, smaller eyebox, fixed parallax, expensive, bright illumination (definitely daylight bright).

I have a Leupold MK4 MRT 1.5-5X24 illuminated that I used in Iraq from 2005-2006. Solid little optic, great battery life, clear glass, easy to bump the illum on and not daylight bright, not that expensive and it worked pretty well. I still run it.

 

[Rerun7]

FWIW, the Athlon Cronus 1-6 reticle is basically the Vortex JM-1 with wind holds. It's not as bright, but they increased the center dot size to compensate. I think it's the difference fiber optic and non-fiber optic illumination.

I wasn't a fan of the dot size, but don't understand BDC reticles without wind holds. So I chose the Cronus over the Razor.

That’s why usage context is really important.

I’ve never missed not having wind holds since I’m not using it the same way I would use a precision scope.

I primarily use mine for rapid engagements from 10-500yds on steel so gross wind holds work fine.

 

[KineticPerformance]

I truly don't understand the "what do you want to use it for" argument unless that consideration involves night vision. At that point you are choosing to have 1x that you can shoot through with tubes, or you can't and you need a clip-on or you are choosing a laser only option.

If you are a solar powered shooter, it's implied in the name, "Low Power Variable Optic." They were created to replace a RDS with magnifier; that is to say, an optic which was a stand alone 1x but had the option to add magnification but without the problems a magnifier presented. That isn't to say it solved all the problems; it didn't. You still have to focus it properly because you get very different performance levels depending on if you set your ocular focus at 1x vice max-x.

If you aren't replacing a RDS then you might as well use something that has 10x or higher on the top end and use an offset RDS for low-probability/speed engagements.

Within those parameters, I want something that is as close to RDS performance as possible (large ocular lense, giant FOV, and daylight bright) and I will pick top end (magnification) glass and a reticle based on my needs and/or budget. The Razor Gen2-E is the workhorse optic in this category (gets it done) and the Kahles/Swarovski (does it better) is the race optic.

 

[Rerun7]

So…. You’re style of shooting and average engagement scenario shouldn’t be a factor in reticle choice???

Please…. Tell us more….

 

[MarkCO]

So…. You’re style of shooting and average engagement scenario shouldn’t be a factor in reticle choice???

Please…. Tell us more….

In all fairness, he did say...

I truly don't understand the "what do you want to use it for" argument

 

[mkollman74]

Kahles

 

[diggler1833]

I've had a couple of experiences shooting at more than just paper, or one stationary live target (coyote etc...) with a LPVO.

SFP isn't the handicap that some people give it. If you have to dial down in magnification from 6x, 8x or whatever to 2-3x, you're going to be well within your max PBR. Holding over becomes a non issue, as does wind holds.

I've also found that shorter throws on a hunting LPVO are advantageous (I'll assume in tactical applications as well...but I've never been issued an LPVO for combat, and I'm retired now so I don't see it happening). For example: Last year I had an entire sounder (group of hogs) consisting of shoats (younger hogs) show up below the house one morning as I was eating breakfast. I grabbed my AR that sits on top of the china cabinet and ran out to engage. I snuck around a tree and got within 35-40 yards of the sounder and took a well-aimed first shot. My optic is a Burris XTR II 1-8x, and I was on 8x. I immediately realized my mistake as a dozen shoats took off for the trees in different directions, and I was trying to pick up runners with way too much magnification. I gave my scope's magnification a crank down without looking and got back on the trigger. I was able to pick up three more runners before they made it to cover about 100 yards away. I later looked, and had adjusted the magnification down to about 3.5x...that was as far as one quick wrist turn would get me.

I think reticle choice is important too, however that is a little more dependent on application in my opinion. Tactical reticles work better in hunting applications than vice versa I've found so far. However, I only own two LPVOs so my experience is not as great as others. But I do carry my guns with them frequently out here on the ranch too, and have killed quite a few moving things with them, so there's that.

I'm certainly not on here to recommend one brand over another. Rather, just to add that sometimes the parameters that we hang ourselves up on when it comes to selection aren't as much of a deal breaker in the field.

 

[louu]

Hurry up a d buy this it will sell fast

https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/296569-wts-vortex-razor-g2-e-1-6x24-moa-reticle-w-mount-like-new/

 

[Maverick3009]

"that was as far as one quick wrist turn would get me."

I've noticed that a lot of optics nowadays either come with some sort throw lever or at least have one available on the aftermarket. That should help mitigate how much you can zoom in/out with a quick twist. Nightforce even has multiple spots on the magnification ring that you can place the throw lever per personal preference.

 

[louu]

530 yards on 5 power with the razor

I forgot my 400 yard holdover but I could easily see the dirt splash

 

[Bart]

Rather, just to add that sometimes the parameters that we hang ourselves up on when it comes to selection aren't as much of a deal breaker in the field.
[/QUOTE]
Agreed. So many times I got myself wrapped around an axle, but when I was out actually doing things.....I realized exactly what you said, but was not able to articulate my thoughts as clearly as your one sentence did.
OP- I stupidly sold my Swaro 1-6, been looking for one since
Kahles is an analog, and what I am looking for now. I will say the swaro didnt stand out in one or two specific ways, but was very user-friendly, if that makes any sense- lightweight, bright reticle, good eyebox, easy to use controls, blah blah...

 

[W54/XM-388]

Any thoughts on the Primary Arms Platinum series? I like the ACSS reticle a lot, and I'm a total FFP convert, including for an LPVO, but I don't know of a local dealer for a hands on eval to compare glass. Willing to consider other reticles, but strongly prefer FFP with some sort of daylight bright illuminated circle. BDC is okay since this is for max 500 yards, but MIL is fine too. Not really interested in MOA.

Recommendations?

I'm going to say that in the price range, the Primary Arms Platinum series 1-8 is an excellent choice.
I run their ACSS reticle because for fast shooting at close range, it works really well both illuminated or not.

Now if you can push closer to $2k then the Vortex starts being a good option.

If money is no object, the S&B Dual CC is excellent.
For strictly close up hunting, the Blaser one is very nice.

 

[KineticPerformance]

So…. You’re style of shooting and average engagement scenario shouldn’t be a factor in reticle choice???

Please…. Tell us more….

I'll start with a vignette: We were looking to buy some optics but were torn between buying a prism (the Alpha TARAC) and more LPVOs (which we were being told we couldn't buy because we had ATACR 1-8x scopes coming....and had for about two years, just like the Sig scopes that never showed up). I already had four Razor Gen2 1-6x scopes (MRAD) in the cage that we had for several years so they were the baseline LPVO for comparison with the Aimpoint T2 and TACOMHQ Alpha TARAC. We had two new guys so I used them as the test bed. They both shot the same course of fire from 100-600m with the same two guns, only difference being the optics. They got a quick brief on the zero and the optic and how to use it prior to the course of fire: with the prism the guidance was if it looks like it is inside 400m hold high A-Zone and if it looks like it is past 400m use the prism and hold high A-Zone; with the Razor they were given holds. Both hit about 50% more targets with the T2/Prism combo because it required less thought because they were accustomed to shooting a 50/200m zero (which allows for pretty easy hits to 400m) and the prism just gave them more range with the same hold. Neither could use the MRAD reticle due to lack of training; we later got the TReMoR8 in the ATACR because it is easier to give guys a BDC than to train them to shoot MRAD. I say all that to say, you don't need a specific reticle to be really effective to about 600m. I have mil holds to 600m memorized off of a 100m zero and it works really well for me (because they are about the same with 5.56 or 7.62 shooting 77gn or 175gn no matter which MRAD reticle I might be using) but it is by no means necessary to be effective within that range.

As far as reticles go, I do not think it is super critical for shooting at "DMR/LPVO" distances. With a 200m zero it is really kind of a moot point because it is a game of holding center or favoring high to 400m regardless of the power you are on (SFP vs FFP become null). I have used the Razor 1-6x with JM and MRAD reticles, the ATACR 1-8x with the TReMoR8 and FC-DM, Aimpoint T2 (stand alone and with prism), and a couple of 1-4x scopes with everything from a German #4 to various BDC reticles and inside of 600m do not think one is significantly better as an aiming system than the others. An LPVO most certainly gives you an edge with identification and shooting low percentage shots.

What does matter is non-critical eye-relief, a large sight picture (big ocular lens), and a lot of FOV, and having the ocular properly focused at 1x because that is where you will see the biggest difference. What the OP described as not having "true 1x" is often a problem induced by focusing the ocular at the top end instead of 1x. That might seem counter intuitive given how we generally focus a high power scope but it is a fact with LPVOs. If you focus it at 1x until all apparent vertical/lateral shift of the image disappears (or minimizes as much as possible) as you drive on and off target you get a "truer" 1x which is what an LPVO is really trying to accomplish while maintaining the ability to give you magnification when you need it. At the top end all of them will still perform adequately for the shooting between 400m and 600m when focused for shooting at 1x.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

There is no true 1 power either unless I missed something.

Yes, you missed something.

and having the ocular properly focused at 1x because that is where you will see the biggest difference. What the OP described as not having "true 1x" is often a problem induced by focusing the ocular at the top end instead of 1x. That might seem counter intuitive given how we generally focus a high power scope but it is a fact with LPVOs. If you focus it at 1x until all apparent vertical/lateral shift of the image disappears (or minimizes as much as possible) as you drive on and off target you get a "truer" 1x which is what an LPVO is really trying to accomplish while maintaining the ability to give you magnification when you need it. At the top end all of them will still perform adequately for the shooting between 400m and 600m when focused for shooting at 1x.

This is what you missed.

 

[Chicory01]

K16i

 

[Jackalope]

Facts.

Should be the LPVO sticky.

 

[BytorJr]

Vortex Gen III here. BDC reticle. Great scope until about 8x, then the eyebox is a chore to get behind for me. I could probably move the optic a bit and reposition it better, but at 1-8x it's magical. The "red dot' is indeed "red dot" bright and no issues at all seeing it.

Now, was it worth the 1800 or so I bought it for on pre-sale? Nope....not in my opinion; not by a long shot. The glass just isn't good enough for that cost, combined with the shrinking eye-box at 8-10x and the glass gets "dark" as well from 8-10x. My Bushnell Elite 1-8.5x is actually much more clear throughout the entire range, but just has a mil-reticle with not-so intuitive windage. It's DEFINITELY NOT "red dot" bright. But the EO-Tech-like circle helps regardless. My favorite, and was low cost was the Bushy Elite 1-6x. The BDC works great on it, and was like 600 bucks. Eurooptic no longer has these, but for 600 bucks IMO it was a steal - very easy to get behind too. But...not "red dot" bright.

 

[PBWalsh]

I've had a couple of experiences shooting at more than just paper, or one stationary live target (coyote etc...) with a LPVO.

SFP isn't the handicap that some people give it. If you have to dial down in magnification from 6x, 8x or whatever to 2-3x, you're going to be well within your max PBR. Holding over becomes a non issue, as does wind holds.

I've also found that shorter throws on a hunting LPVO are advantageous (I'll assume in tactical applications as well...but I've never been issued an LPVO for combat, and I'm retired now so I don't see it happening). For example: Last year I had an entire sounder (group of hogs) consisting of shoats (younger hogs) show up below the house one morning as I was eating breakfast. I grabbed my AR that sits on top of the china cabinet and ran out to engage. I snuck around a tree and got within 35-40 yards of the sounder and took a well-aimed first shot. My optic is a Burris XTR II 1-8x, and I was on 8x. I immediately realized my mistake as a dozen shoats took off for the trees in different directions, and I was trying to pick up runners with way too much magnification. I gave my scope's magnification a crank down without looking and got back on the trigger. I was able to pick up three more runners before they made it to cover about 100 yards away. I later looked, and had adjusted the magnification down to about 3.5x...that was as far as one quick wrist turn would get me.

View attachment 7692163

I think reticle choice is important too, however that is a little more dependent on application in my opinion. Tactical reticles work better in hunting applications than vice versa I've found so far. However, I only own two LPVOs so my experience is not as great as others. But I do carry my guns with them frequently out here on the ranch too, and have killed quite a few moving things with them, so there's that.

I'm certainly not on here to recommend one brand over another. Rather, just to add that sometimes the parameters that we hang ourselves up on when it comes to selection aren't as much of a deal breaker in the field.

Stop! Stop it with your logic! Let me go back to my FFP thinking of superiority!

Good points of yours and @KineticPerformance

For those with the MRAD G2 Razor, how usable is the reticle on 1x WITHOUT illumination? Batteries are cool until they die, reticles don’t die. Any “through the scope” pictues?

I keep looking at it, trying to justify a SFP without actual turrets.

 

[Rerun7]

I had the mrad G2 and didn’t care for it. I found it too slow for quick transition targets. Swapped it for the JM1 and much happier. The reticle is pretty thick so it works fine without illum but it’s obviously better with it.

 

[KineticPerformance]

For those with the MRAD G2 Razor, how usable is the reticle on 1x WITHOUT illumination? Batteries are cool until they die, reticles don’t die. Any “through the scope” pictues?

I keep looking at it, trying to justify a SFP without actual turrets.
[/QUOTE]
I don't have any issue shooting the Razor without illum but it's easier with; as in, if I forget or find myself without illum I'm fine but if I'm shooting a short and fast COF I'll turn it on. I also don't generally walk around with it on unless it is dark. For two gun matches I usually shoot with illum and for "DMR" or secondary shooter in sniper matches I usually shoot without.

 

[Moose]

The Razor gen2 works very nice for me without ill because of the reticle being thick enough to see.

 

[91Eunozs]

I’m going back and forth between trying the new Vortex 1-10 Gen 3, or taking a chance on the commercial version of the Sig Tango6. Not a lot written on the Sig, and what I have read is only ‘meh’ …it’s ok. Any significant Pros/Cons for one or the other?

I do already have a Scmidt und Bender 1-8 short dot that’s a couple years old now, so I admit I’m completely spoiled for perfect glass and durability (She’s a heavy one though!).

I’d consider picking up another, newer version of that scope, but damn…$pendy glass for its intended use. A Kahles would make a good compromise too I think.

Maybe just get a good gen 2 Vortex ‘E’ while I can…cheap now that the latest hotness is out.

Damn…now I’m even less decided after writing this out. Crap.

 

[TacticalPlinker]

I'm very satisfied so far with the Vortex Gen3 (mrad) . I've been floating it around several of my builds to find its home.

As mentioned many times , there is no "perfect optic". They all have draw backs. IMO, this explains the additional RMR for close activities if needed quickly. The eye box is excellent at 1x and expectedly tighter at 10x. I recommend no higher than a 1.50" mount for a solid/repeatable cheek weld at max magnification. FYI - from my experience on this optic, the mount you choose may cause you to hate it at 10x if you go too high.