Gunsmithing LTR bolt face....help!

[aljames]

Howdy! First off, great site! As you can see from my post count I'm new here [lurker for years]and I'm in need of some opinions. I hope this is in the right place. I recently bought a used LTR in .223. Previous owner stated less than 300 rounds fired. First time out I had some lazy ejection issues. Took the bolt out and found this, note at about 10 o'clock the ring of steel appears to be chipped or broken. Ideas?

 

[turbo54]

Re: LTR bolt face....help!

R700s don't have the most "positive" extraction/ejection...that's why m16 or Sako extractors are so common when doing a build off these actions.

Welcome to the hide!

Keep shooting, and complete your profile!

 

[aljames]

Re: LTR bolt face....help!

Thanks for the reply. I have a few other 700's and they do not appear to have the same look. I found this with a little google search action and it appears completely different in the same 10 o'clock area.

Another thing that I noticed is that the primer hits are off center. Was thinking that the 2 could be related.

 

[Twisted .308]

Re: LTR bolt face....help!

Man ..now I gotta go home and look at my LTR Bolt face ....looks like some backwoods hick did the machine work on that bolt using a hand drill !!!

 

[aljames]

Re: LTR bolt face....help!

Nice isn't it. To say I'm a little bummed/PO'd about it is putting it lightly. I called Remington and they are sending a repair order or whatever they called it. They said since the rifle was bought second hand that it will be a billable repair [joy]. Any ideas on what a new bolt is going to set me back? Perhaps it is a good time to buy a aftermarket unit. Suggestions or Ideas on a replacement?

 

[lonely_wolf]

Re: LTR bolt face....help!

Depending on a balance of overall costs and downtime why not pick up a PTG bolt and have smith install it...?

 

[my human host]

Re: LTR bolt face....help!

Could you elaborate on your ejection promblems?

Assuming your extractor is working properly, you may not need to spend any money. Is there a burr in the broken area that may be grabbing the brass?

 

[aljames]

Re: LTR bolt face....help!

I should clarify....When I bought the gun I gave it a quick wipe down, pulled a CLP'd snake down the tube and then put it away for a month or so. Then after getting my mounts and scope mounted I decided to give it a good cleaning so I could fire form some cases and get a good baseline for working up a load. When I took out the bolt for a good cleaning is when I noticed the face issue. I contacted the seller and he stated that he never had the extractor worked on or had any feed issues. He said it was the best shooting rifle that he ever owned. He asked if I had tried to cycle some rounds. After his response I went out and put 5 rounds down range to observe functioning and to read the brass. The ejection problem seems intermittent. One time it will throw the case 6" away from the gun, the next it will extract it from the chamber and just drop it on the follower.

I am more concerned about safety, brass life, and accuracy than I am about the ejection issue. I have owned probably 6 700 based rifles in the past and have never seen one with a bolt face like this one. The primer strikes were all of center also which may or may not be caused by the radius that seems to be missing from the bolt face. The more I think about this the more PO'd I get. I fear that taking someones word and rolling the dice on a used rifle came back to bite me this time. Live and learn I guess. Not sure the last owner could have overlooked the issue which chaps me even more. I appreciate the help.

 

[shoot4fun]

Re: LTR bolt face....help!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aljames</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nice isn't it. To say I'm a little bummed/PO'd about it is putting it lightly. I called Remington and they are sending a repair order or whatever they called it. They said since the rifle was bought second hand that it will be a billable repair [joy]. Any ideas on what a new bolt is going to set me back? Perhaps it is a good time to buy a aftermarket unit. Suggestions or Ideas on a replacement? </div></div>
I would not pay Remington to fix that. Have a M16/Sako style extractor installed and never worry about it again. May cost more but will be money well spent.

 

[aljames]

Re: LTR bolt face....help!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shoot4fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aljames</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nice isn't it. To say I'm a little bummed/PO'd about it is putting it lightly. I called Remington and they are sending a repair order or whatever they called it. They said since the rifle was bought second hand that it will be a billable repair [joy]. Any ideas on what a new bolt is going to set me back? Perhaps it is a good time to buy a aftermarket unit. Suggestions or Ideas on a replacement? </div></div>
I would not pay Remington to fix that. Have a M16/Sako style extractor installed and never worry about it again. May cost more but will be money well spent. </div></div>

I guess one of my concerns is that the case head is not fully supported since the metal is missing. If I have a M16 extractor installed that concern will still not be corrected. Am I thinking right?

 

[my human host]

Re: LTR bolt face....help!

To me it seems that either your ejector is binding of the case is getting snagged on a sharp/rough edge.

Work your ejector in and out several times with something that wont scratch anything. See if you notice anything unusual.

If you don't notice anything, my guess is the sharp edge left from the break is grabbing the case.

Is that a scratch that runs about half way around the bolt nose? If so check the bolt nose counterbore at the breech end of the barrel for debris.

Also clean and lube. Your bolt looks a little nasty.

 

[aljames]

Re: LTR bolt face....help!

So ejection issues aside does the break pose any other safety dangers or brass issues?

 

[bohem]

Re: LTR bolt face....help!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aljames</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So ejection issues aside does the break pose any other safety dangers or brass issues? </div></div>

Not as it appears, however the question is "what caused it and did that create and issue we can't see?"

Can you get a picture from the side to see more of the metal in there that is flaked/chipped away?

The fix by Remington will very likely be a bolt replacement and that could easily set you back close to the purchase price of the rifle. It may also change how the rifle shoots for you too.

Mag-flux would be the way to check the bolt head properly.

 

[shoot4fun]

Re: LTR bolt face....help!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aljames</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shoot4fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aljames</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nice isn't it. To say I'm a little bummed/PO'd about it is putting it lightly. I called Remington and they are sending a repair order or whatever they called it. They said since the rifle was bought second hand that it will be a billable repair [joy]. Any ideas on what a new bolt is going to set me back? Perhaps it is a good time to buy a aftermarket unit. Suggestions or Ideas on a replacement? </div></div>
I would not pay Remington to fix that. Have a M16/Sako style extractor installed and never worry about it again. May cost more but will be money well spent. </div></div>

It is an operation that has been done thousands of times. I have a 223AI that has had it done and It works fine with even hotter loads than your 223.


I guess one of my concerns is that the case head is not fully supported since the metal is missing. If I have a M16 extractor installed that concern will still not be corrected. Am I thinking right? </div></div>

 

[2156SMK]

Re: LTR bolt face....help!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aljames</div><div class="ubbcode-body">note at about 10 o'clock the ring of steel appears to be chipped or broken. Ideas?</div></div>

There are two clearance cuts made where the ends of the ejector snap into the boltface.

Here is my 700 boltfaces picture of the 3 standard sizes:

It would be odd for one of the ends of the extractor to want to break out of the end of the bolt as all the pulling force is in the middle of the bolt.
I have seen 700 bolts fail at the extractor cut when some genius skimmed the end of the nose thinner to make it pretty during his "truing" job.
When they fail in that mode, the end of the bolt nose breaks right where the extractor's hook is located.

 

[2156SMK]

Re: LTR bolt face....help!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aljames</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I guess one of my concerns is that the case head is not fully supported since the metal is missing. If I have a M16 extractor installed that concern will still not be corrected. Am I thinking right? </div></div>

You are not thinking right.
The case is supported in the chamber.
The area of the case that sticks out of the chamber is all solid brass and does not need support except to the rear.
The boltface gives the rearward support.
The sides of the bolt nose only serve to hold the extractor and to channel gas in the case of a primer or case failure.

 

[okiefired]

Re: LTR bolt face....help!

Ya know I'm getting to be an old forgetful bastard but does anyone think this boltface looks familiar? Has the guy you got it from ever been a Hide member?

Okie

 

[pure_mahem]

Re: LTR bolt face....help!

I don't think it's a safety issue. My first thought would be some real slaming of steel cased ammo but there's a lot of brass residue on the face.

IF it were ME I would get a one piece PTG bolt if I was going to replace it and consider it an up grade (Hell I'm consdidering doing that on a rifle I just got brand new out of the box). The Questions I would be contimplating is even with the repair did I still get a good deal? and Does it Shoot?

 

[hdbiker1]

Re: LTR bolt face....help!

Yours looks better than mine. I had a case failure which swelled up inside the extractor cut which tore a section out. To date it still functions well. But I do have a spare bolt on hand, just in case.

 

[aljames]

Re: LTR bolt face....help!

Not sure if the guy was a member here. I found it on AR15.com EE. If it was a known issue by the seller that will really chap my hide. I sell quite a few things online and always mention any issues that the gun or item may have. ESPECIALLY something major like this.

I have not been able to shoot it for groups yet since I discovered this issue I have not wanted to shoot it more until I got some opinions.

I got the gun in supposedly like new condition with less than 300 down range, a trigger job, leupold bases and rings for 820 shipped. I didn't consider it too much until I discovered this rather expensive to rectify issue.

PTG is local to me and I have a friend that works there so looks like I will be springing for one of those when I'm ready to throw more money at this rifle. Disappointed I am.

 

[hdbiker1]

Re: LTR bolt face....help!

Before sinking any money into it, take it out and shoot it. If it shoots and functions, you have no problem except that spot in the back of your mind that knows it's there. I see no safety issues, it just breaks down to function. But you are right the seller should've let you known before hand. That is if he knew.

 

[aljames]

Re: LTR bolt face....help!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hdbiker1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Before sinking any money into it, take it out and shoot it. If it shoots and functions, you have no problem except that spot in the back of your mind that knows it's there. I see no safety issues, it just breaks down to function. But you are right the seller should've let you known before hand. That is if he knew. </div></div>

Thanks to everyone for their input on this! I really appreciate all of the help and suggestions. I know which direction to go now! Work on getting the ejection issues solved by either running the bolt like a man, checking for damage to the extractor or deburring the chip if necessary. I think that I will wait on sending it out for the M16/Sako extractor for now and just buy the PTG or Tubbs when I am to that point.

As the last poster mentioned I am going to just go shoot it. I'll watch it close to see if it worsens and see how accurately the rifle shoots. I do worry about any other unseen issues as mentioned and...what initially caused it to break and is there more damage.

But yes, it will always be in the back of my OCD mind. Damn it.

 

[hdbiker1]

Re: LTR bolt face....help!

If you are having problems similar to what John is having in his video, just change out the extractor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udQJ2_ziDFo&feature=plcp

 

[pure_mahem]

Re: LTR bolt face....help!

I know your a second hand owner but wouldn't this be considered a defect in weapon manufacture that Remington should be responsible for. Just saying I don't remember what the warranty is I kind of just forgot about it when I chucked the box. With all the work on my rifle I'm pretty sure whatever warranty was there if any is pretty much null and void. But if your bolt isn't modified hey you never know.

I must say it's always good to get a deal but this is exactly why I always buy my rifles new. Unless I'm prepared to through money at a Restoration job. Just one more instance of buyer beware if it sounds to good to be true it probably is! But you didn't just buy yourself a rifle there you bought yourself a lesson in what to look for in the future.

 

[aljames]

Re: LTR bolt face....help!

Not one of my cheaper lessons unfortunately. Remington's warranty is only 2 years and is only offered to the original owner. I got that info from the website and the guy who I spoke with regarding the repair. It does seem like a defective product but who knows if he was slamming steel cases, hot handloads, etc through the gun. That was pretty much what the service rep emphasized too. Makes sense, sucks to be me, but I understand.

I'm with you on buying new from now on. Luckily, this is the first time I have gotten hurt this bad[$]. But like you said, if you want it perfect buy new. Then hope you don't get a lemon right out of the gate. I've been down that road already enough, although the warranty always made that drama easier to cope with. Ah well, I'm alive I guess it could be worse.