M1A for Basic LR Rifle Course?

[FN in MT]

I'm taking a two day Basic LR Rifle Course in a month in bend OR.

I'm retired from the job, simply taking this with a Buddy for fun.

Targets from 400 to 1000 yds. Two Hundred rds of ammo required.


I've got a reliable M1A thats capable of sub MOA consistently with 168 or 175 GMM. Otherwise all the rest of my rifles are AR's or big game bolt guns. Have a .257 Roberts, A .338-06 and a .375 H&H.
Other than a Rem 700 in .280 Ackley Improved (26" barrel, accurate, good trigger) The .280 would be accurate but is it enough bullet weight for the longer distances?

So I'm thinking of using the M1A.

I need to mount a bipod. I've wanted to get an Atlas for some time now...so this is a good excuse. Atlas yea or nay?
I can get a picatinny rail model which would require I mount an adapter to my wood stock. NO issue if you guys think it's the way to go.

Already have a few Harris bipods that only require a QD stud. Also doable.

It's wearing a 6-24X, mil dot Sightron III scope that seems to work fine, tracks precisely etc.

My only other issue...I'm 6-3 with 36" arms...the M1A stock is dreadfully short for me. And the steel plate IS slippery. I could remove the steel buttplate and add a pad and spacer. May also be able to borrow a Vltor stock that would be long enough.

Thoughts on using the M1A for a LR Course?

FN in MT

 

[Tack425]

FN

I had 2 M1A rifles and they were great out to the 200yds I shot. I never had the chance to get them out past that. I am 6'1" and have longer arms also, but the Scout felt good in its original stock. If you start using spacers on your stock, you may run into the problem with the butt plate not attaching because you might max out the screws. Maybe check into a slip on recoil absorber, looks cheesy but may do the job. For your rail mount I went with the Sadlak front rail with sling swivel PN# 140063. I ended up grinding down the heads of the screws a little so the op rod would clear without a question. I also put some epoxy on the heads to further protect the op rod and so they wouldn't work loose. I then used an Atlas which I now use on my 20" POF P308. Its a good reason to buy the Atlas you wont regret it. Simple, works and clean lines. I didn't see what scope mount you are using, but it must be working well if you are stretching the M1A out past 400. I had the Bassett picatinny so I could use the irons if wanted. I haven't ever used a Vltor stock, but did use a JAE-100 that had the adjustable LOP which worked for only when using the scope. The cheek weld was WAY too high for use with irons. Looking back a cheek pad adjusted for me would have worked best. Simple clean and does not weigh what the JAE does. The JAE does offer a stiffer platform without the need for glass bedding, but trade off is weight. I had the best groups with the 175g bullets but then again its a battle rifle and I was happy with 1.2MOA.
I ended up selling the M1A's because of the recoil was killing me. I have had 4 shoulder reconstructions with 14 screws in place. So now Im using a gasser.

Good luck in your course and stay safe

 

[FN in MT]

I've got the steel Sadlak mount. Rock solid since I mounted it ten years back.

A friend e mailed me and he has a spare Vltor stock....so I may drop my gun into the stock and see how it shoots. The Vltor would eliminate a few issues.

FN

 

[M1Amen]

FN,

As you might guess from my screen name, I recommend you go ahead and take the M1A.

If you are sub-MOA with factory loads, why would you ever want to shoot anything else? The Atlas bipod is also a good option. On the picatiny mounts that go on the front of a factory stock: look out that the sling swivel doesn't decide to extricate itself from the little hole it mounts into on the rail. You'll see what I mean when you buy one. This happened to me on a hunt once and I wound up using paracord to fashion a new sling mount around the gas system.

The Sadlak mount is a good one, as is the Bassett, which I have run for quite a while on one of my rifles. No complaints whatsoever and much simpler than many other scope mount designs for anything but the LRB M25. Basset's mount does exaclty what he advertises, and it machined with true American quality.

The issue you will run into when you wan to go distance with an M1A is getting an actual cheek weld. You will never meet a bigger fan of Garands and M1A's than I, but I will also be the first to tell you that I find the factory stock nothing short of abominable. Factory stocks on military guns are like issuing everybody a size nine swim flipper and telling them to go win a foot race. The shoes don't fit anybody, and everybody could benefit from an upgrade.

Also, just as a precaution, not sure about how much elevation you have in the Sightron, but you may want to check against a ballistic table to make sure you don't run out of elevation before you hit a 1000 yards.

Shooting the rifle with a scope and without a cheek riser will require a chin weld. To get a good a cheek weld, I recommend one of Karston's (Google him) cheek risers. He makes them out of Kydex rather than PVC like some others, and I vouch for his quality. Without giving the stock a lot of added cheek elevation, I have seen very very few people who could even use irons properly with an M1 or an M1A.

For the geometry of most human heads, a true and proper cheek weld will align the eye with nothing other than the back of the bottom of the receiver. If you don't want to spring for a good cheek riser, use some thin sheets of closed cell foam and some tape to build up the cheek riser. Also, in my opinion, I have never seen one of those pre-made velcro or paracord attached risers create the amount of elevation that a shooter really needed, so I would skip those, even if they come with different pad heights.

For the back of the stock, there is a simple fix. Go to the sporting goods store and pick up some skateboard tape. This stuff is like an adhesive sandpaper and you can put it directly onto the back of the rifle. That will give it some grip. Of course you could also just order a recoil pad and shape it to the contour and that would extend the length of pull and give you some grippy material at the back.

If you want to really bring the M1A into the 21st century, dump the GI stock like a bad habit and take a look at JAE and some of the other aftermarket manufacturers. I believe LAW483 (does excellent custom stocks for Garands and M1A/M14 rifles - Google him) also can custom make an M14E2 style with an adjustable cheek riser, which would be phenomenal.

If you are willing to wait a year or more, the JAE is the penultimate M1A stock for a distance gun. It doesn't get any better than the JAE if you want to stretch the legs of the rifle, but it is a bit weighty. You can indeed shoot it with irons still, but you will want the version they sell with the thumb wheel adjustment for the riser height. The JAE can also be adjusted for length of pull by adding spacers and it can come with integrated rails for bipods (like that Atlas you know you want...) and other accoutrements.

The bull pup stock that just came out by Juggernaut is built with exceptional quality, but it will take a bit of getting used to because it relocates so much weight to the rear. I dare say I am one of the few people who has had the privilege to hold one yet, as they are still pretty new on the market. The Juggernauts are an excellent concept and I think very highly of the manufacturing quality. I have heard good things about the VLTOR, but am yet to hold one in my hands. From the reports I hear it should be awesome.

I hope this helps a bit. Leave all the rest at home and take the M1A. You won't regret it.

 

[08Cayenne]

I took jamied's 3 day long range shooting class a couple of years back with an M1a. 3 days of shooting, half day in the class the other half in the field. What a great time. I got "top gun" 2 pf the 3 days shooting against nothing but bolt guns. The M1a will do great, we shot from 100 to 1000 yards each day. Use the 175's and only the 175's, you will need them for the long shots, I had the best luck with FGMM. Once you get your 100 yard zero you will need about 32 moa of elevation to get to 1000 yards. I used a Sadlak titanium mount and a NF NXS. Look into the Sadlak heavy duty front rail, they are simply the best, I used a Harris bipod for the course and it worked fine. I have an Atlas and Bobro now, like them better than the harris. Get your 100 yard zero before you take the course, saves a bunch of time, most in the class didn't. You can spend your time shooting downrange rather than 100 yards.

Heres the Sadlak rail with bipod stud.



The rifle I used



100 yard zero, 6 shots

 

[proneshooter]

Out of all your choices, I'd take the M700 in .280 AI.

Look at the ballistics of a 162 grain .284" match bullet vs that of a 175 grain .308 bullet, both at the chronographed velocities out of your rifles. If that doesn't convince you nothing will.

 

[Muskox]

Your 3 choices, by my way of thinking as an F-Class shooter.

Take your M14, figure out what is the highest BC bullet that will work in the magazines and hopefully it is the same one preferred by the rifle. We shoot 1000 yards with 155 Grain bullets in F-Standard, you can do it provided your twist rate and bullet weigh match.

I'd personally see what kind of high BC bullets the 280 and 338-06 can handle and test this at 300 yards. 250 Grain Scenar or SMK in the 338-06 would be awesome. 160-180 bullets in the 280 would be better than the 308 any day of the week.

Lastly buy a new rifle in 6.5 something or 7mm or 30 cal magnum.

 

[bm11]

The only thing I would caution you is to get that Vltor stock on there as soon as possible. M1A's are very sensitive to stock and bedding changes and if it needed to be fine tuned I would want to do that with as much time to spare before my class as possible.

Have fun!

 

[tylerw02]

Out of all your choices, I'd take the M700 in .280 AI.

Look at the ballistics of a 162 grain .284" match bullet vs that of a 175 grain .308 bullet, both at the chronographed velocities out of your rifles. If that doesn't convince you nothing will.

There is wisdom here. ^

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Start with the Aim Sports M1A/M14 Recoil Extension Buttpad, Small, Black : Amazon.com : Sports & Outdoors for stock LOP extension, follow up with am Amazon.com: Ultimate Arms Gear - Tactical Stealth Black 1" Slip On Boot Rubber Recoil Reducing Combat Buttpad Butt Pad with U.S. Flaming Bomb Insignias and Removable Spacer For M1 M-1 M1A M14 Garand Springfield 1903, 1903A3, 1903A4 Rifle Stock: Sport if needed. I'm 6' 5" with a 37" sleeve.

Rem .308 brass (Win OK too) F/L resized (even if it's NIB), CCI-200 Primer, 175SMK 2.815" OAL, 42.2gr IMR4064.

If the rifle isn't bedded, do so. The Harris will cover your bases quite adequately. You will definitely need some means of supporting the cheek for s proper cheekweld. If a stock pack can deliver this, fine, but make sure it's not likely to chafe your cheek through 200 rounds of fire. You will probably also need some sort of shooting mat, rough ground can ruin your concentration. Bring several water containers/water bottles, drying out is a big mistake.

Beyond that, understand that the M1A will be a solid, reliable 2MOA rifle, which is not any kind of a criticism. By this, I mean it should shoot 2MOA all the way out, unlike a lot of precision bolt guns with will tease you with 1/2MOA at 100, then deliver a decent and reasonable 2MOA all the way out there.

I really like the .280 as well, but I think that when the dust clears and the grins appear, you'll really enjoy letting your M1A out into the big fields for several days' run and play. (and be prepared in advance for bellyaching about hot brass landing on the shooter to your right). What you learn with some additional diligence from/with the M1A will apply just as well to the .280 later on.

Greg

 

[proneshooter]

unlike a lot of precision bolt guns with will tease you with 1/2MOA at 100, then deliver a decent and reasonable 2MOA all the way out there.

A precision rifle does not degrade accuracy with distance. A bolt action rifle that can shoot .5 at 100 and then can't manage better than 2 farther out is not a precision rifle by any definition of the term. I call rifles like that junk.

 

[FN in MT]

Appreciate the sage advice. In no particular order;

I agree on the 175 gr GMM. Luckily I have 460 rds of it and it shoots brilliantly out of this rifle. Yesterday I zero'd at 100 and stuck six into .540" . Yesterday was a GOOD day!

M1amen,

Thanks for a LOT of great advice. I think I'm OK with everything else, other than the stock as my weak point. I've got a cheek riser on it with two chunks of 3/8" closed cell between the comb and the add on piece. Makes for a reasonably decent cheek weld but still not optimal. I may try my Buddies Vltor but I HATE to take this thing out of the stock. It shoots so well i'm afraid to touch ANYTHING at this point. I looked at a few stocks last night an all of them seem to be unavailable anyway. Maybe a new stock will be a down the road thing.

Skateboard tape on the way. THAT is a good idea. I'll give it a try.

08Cayenne,

Another great post...Thanks for taking the time. ATLAS bipod and the same Sadlak HD frt rail both on the way already. I've WANTED the ATLAS bipod for some time now. This Course was a good excuse to buy one.

As far as my Rem 700 in .280 AI............I've killed a ton of deer, antelope and several elk as well as useing it on plains game in RSA in 2000. Most of the game shot here in MT were in excess of 300 yds with two of the elk at 400+. A proven performer that I trust.
I simply want to try the M1A. Carried a DOD freebie, M-14 in the trunk of my patrol car for many years. Worked for the DOJ here in MT as a Highway Patrolman for 23 years. Always had a lot of faith in my old H&R. So using the M1A is sort of a nostalgic thing for me.

I understand the superior ballistics of the .284 Match bullets....but I think I'm going to go Old School. I'd need to fireform and load 200 cases as well which doesn't appeal as much as dropping a few cases of GMM in the back of the truck. I'd also have to find some bullets which may be tough in the current insanity. The .308 is simply FAR easier for me right now.

Appreciate the Range tips as well...I'm no stranger to spending an entire day in the weather on some windy, Hot/Cold Range. We always preached hydration to the recruit classes ,during their five day Range pportion of the Academy. I have a couple of Camelbacks to take with me as well.

FN in MT

 

[proneshooter]

As far as my Rem 700 in .280 AI............I've killed a ton of deer, antelope and several elk as well as useing it on plains game in RSA in 2000. Most of the game shot here in MT were in excess of 300 yds with two of the elk at 400+. A proven performer that I trust.

I understand the superior ballistics of the .284 Match bullets....but I think I'm going to go Old School. I'd need to fireform and load 200 cases as well which doesn't appeal as much as dropping a few cases of GMM in the back of the truck. I'd also have to find some bullets which may be tough in the current insanity. The .308 is simply FAR easier for me right now.

Roger, copy.....

You're going in with eyes wide open. All that's left to say is have fun and post an AAR.

 

[kraigWY]

I wouldn't have any problems at all taking my M1A to such a match. I don't use a bi-pod, but slinging up and resting your forearm on a ruck is just as good (better for me).

Shot a lot of 1000 yard matches in the last 35 years, my best scores have been with my M1A. I would go to the 175s though. 168s really suck out of a M1A at 1000.

Having said that, I just came in from the shop and noticed my M1903A4 with it's Weaver K 2.5, If I was going to go to such match, I'd take it just for fun.

 

[pgk]

I Haven't been a huge aftermarket stock guy for the M1A up until I checked out that JAE, Damn! that is Sweet!!

Pete

 

[M1Amen]

I Haven't been a huge aftermarket stock guy for the M1A up until I checked out that JAE, Damn! that is Sweet!!

Pete

And oh if I could tell you just how sweet it is. It was worth the 50 week wait time. Yes 50 weeks. You read that correctly.