Sadly these S&B subs (out of a rem 700 w/suppressor) dropped @18" @ 100 yards. Since it lost more speed as distance increased it dropped much more than 36" @ 200.....probably about 5 feet roughly of drop.
- Thread starter tinker
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Sadly these S&B subs (out of a rem 700 w/suppressor) dropped @18" @ 100 yards. Since it lost more speed as distance increased it dropped much more than 36" @ 200.....probably about 5 feet roughly of drop.
Barrel length? Twist rate?
Apparently not but it was hard for me to follow since he said 9 mils and 200 then just said 18" with no yardage.
But in order for a 200gr 308 bullet to drop 18" in 100 yards it has to be moving no more than 700fps at the muzzle so something is definitely wrong with the gear, the ammo, the setup ... something
20" 1:11.25 If I recall
S&B's site lists it's POI as roughly 33" of drop from 100 to 200 yards.
What you may have missed is I was looking at the "difference" between supers and subs and you can see i shot one round of fed GM for Zero and from that shot it drops 18" from my zero at 100 yards. So we are looking at the difference then we shot it out to 200 just for fun. It was so much more drop that we didn't have anything on hand to measure it at 200. I did bring a couple more lg silhouette targets but it dropped more the target size of the target so we didn't bother. If I had thought it would drop that much I would have taped several of them together and brought a tape measure to measure it before taking the target down.
Now I am shooting this out of a 20" barrel so my velocity may be 50-75 foot slower than the advertised 1,030fps, but if it is showing 33.4" from 100-200 plus the intial @18" that would give you roughly 52" of drop from Fed GM Zero at 100 to total drop of Subs at 200. Fed GM only drops about 3" @ 200 (or roughly 1 mil). To me it looks like about 5 foot of drop at 200 vs the Fed GM I usually shoot which should be about 9 mils.
The whole point was how dramatically different it was shooting subs at distance in .308. It started out as friends sitting around BSing and speculating on what would be the result, so we figured we would try it. It was a much greater difference than we expected. We also looked for a couple videos showing and found none. So I thought it was worth sharing.
What I learned is if I want a 30 cal long gun to shoot subs, I would likely just grab a Ruger Ranch in 300blk vs having different dope for a rifle I will likely almost never use with subs.
Don't get me wrong subs are fun to shoot for sure. But 300Blk does the same thing for less money.
Also my son is extremely recoil sensitive and he tried an AR in 5.56 with a suppressor and it was too much for him. He has been having fun shooting his 22LR but he wants more of a challenge so I set him up with an entry level 700 and now he is having fun. If he didn't get to shoot the .308 subs he likely would have been too afraid to shoot the .223 (sensory processing disorder).
I was able to get him ringing smaller steel at 200 and he was loving. To me that was totally worth it.
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It will if you shoot them in the neck, just say'n...
Yes, whether the 200gr bullet is shot from a 308 or 300BLK or 45 ACP shouldn't matter as long as they all have the same muzzle velocity and they're stable. That kind of drop seems to indicate the muzzle velocity is nowhere near 1030 fps or it's yawing or tumbling as soon as it leaves the barrel. Plenty of people shoot 308 subs with better success than you demonstrated and subsonic 300BLK == subsonic 308, or as Jim Trotter III would say IIiiDentical
Is this the S&B ammo you shot? S&B says zeroed at 100 yards it's 4" high at 50 yards and 40" low at 200 which seems very reasonable compared to my 45-70 results. Looks like they say they tested it with a ~24" barrel ... 600 mm.
7,62 × 51 – FMJ SUBSONIC (V341562S) – 200 GRS – Sellier & Bellot
www.sellier-bellot.cz The link I provided earlier from shooter's calculator shows a comparison of subs in 308, 45 and more with a consistent muzzle velocity assuming the projectile is stable. They all have basically the same ballistics within minor variations. But the drop is bigger than 33" for all of them between 100 and 200 yards at a 1050 fps muzzle velocity.
A chrony in front of your setup or a lab radar or even FX pocket chrony would have provided good info.
I have a nephew who's a little recoil and report sensitive also and we put him behind my suppressed 45-70 with some homespun 400gr subs and he did fine. He'll probably take his first deer with it this year ... MPBR around 85/90 yds maybe a little farther from a elevated position.
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I heard about a guy who shot a buzzard in the neck with a .177 pellet at about 50 yards. Dropped it like a stone.
Great Depression. There are accounts that wild game was almost wiped out in some parts of the northeast. Former bootleggers started poaching and selling deer and hog meat on a market that was only too voracious due to the hard times. Add in the Dust Bowl destruction of Midwest farmland and now you got a perfect storm for a potential mass starvation event nationwide. Primary caliber used in poaching during the time was .22 LR. The abundant game we have in this country saved the lives of millions of people during that time.
ETA: Tomorrow's audiobook selection for my shift on the machine shop main floor is going to be Of Mice And Men again...
Yes, whether the 200gr bullet is shot from a 308 or 300BLK or 45 ACP shouldn't matter as long as they all have the same muzzle velocity and they're stable. That kind of drop seems to indicate the muzzle velocity is nowhere near 1030 fps or it's yawing or tumbling as soon as it leaves the barrel. Plenty of people shoot 308 subs with better success than you demonstrated and subsonic 300BLK == subsonic 308, or as Jim Trotter III would say IIiiDentical
Is this the S&B ammo you shot? S&B says zeroed at 100 yards it's 4" high at 50 yards and 40" low at 200 which seems very reasonable compared to my 45-70 results. Looks like they say they tested it with a ~24" barrel ... 600 mm.
7,62 × 51 – FMJ SUBSONIC (V341562S) – 200 GRS – Sellier & Bellot
The link I provided earlier from shooter's calculator shows a comparison of subs in 308, 45 and more with a consistent muzzle velocity assuming the projectile is stable. They all have basically the same ballistics within minor variations. But the drop is bigger than 33" for all of them between 100 and 200 yards at a 1050 fps muzzle velocity.
View attachment 8215790
A chrony in front of your setup or a lab radar or even FX pocket chrony would have provided good info.
I have a nephew who's a little recoil and report sensitive also and we put him behind my suppressed 45-70 with some homespun 400gr subs and he did fine. He'll probably take his first deer with it this year ... MPBR around 85/90 yds maybe a little farther from a elevated position.
99% sure this is the S&B I was using, and I agree, ballistically it's the same as those other rounds. That was kinda my point. If it doesn't do anything different then why would I pay more for it vs the other calibers...
7,62 × 51 – FMJ SUBSONIC 200 GRS SB762SUBB – Sellier & Bellot
www.sellier-bellot.cz But I think you might have missed how I was saying this was the "difference" in drop between super and sub @ 100 yards (18"). I did not zero the rifle for the subs, only compared the POI vs the zero for supers illustrating the amount of drop between the rounds.
But I also don't think the rifle I was using had enough twist to stabilize it properly. Now you are making me want to try it with one or my AR-10's.
A really stupid place to shoot them.
You are advocating shooting a half inch rope, when there is an apple sized brain to hit on top of the rope.
I brought you out of ignore to see what you had to say. Now its clear why I never listen to you.
99% sure this is the S&B I was using, and I agree, ballistically it's the same as those other rounds. That was kinda my point. If it doesn't do anything different then why would I pay more for it vs the other calibers...
7,62 × 51 – FMJ SUBSONIC 200 GRS SB762SUBB – Sellier & Bellot
But I think you might have missed how I was saying this was the "difference" in drop between super and sub @ 100 yards (18"). I did not zero the rifle for the subs, only compared the POI vs the zero for supers illustrating the amount of drop between the rounds.
But I also don't think the rifle I was using had enough twist to stabilize it properly. Now you are making me want to try it with one or my AR-10's.
The only way to truly embrace subsonic shooting with ANY centerfire cartridge, is to roll your own.
It was a thought.
I don't know exactly what effect the shorter barrel length has on the muzzle velocity of subs and my Gordon's is on the blink because I switched from Linux to Apple for work compatibility and I don't own a copy of Quickload which doesn't work on Apple anyway. But I may fire up a Linux machine just to do some internal ballistics calculations.
The generally accepted "wisdom" for super loads is a bullet loses between 25-50fps per inch the barrel is shortened so if S&B used a 24" barrel and you are using a 20" barrel then it may be 100-200fps slower out of your rifle but no way to know the true number without a chrony.
Just like regular ammo the performance of sub's can vary significantly from one rifle to the next so if you don't verify muzzle velocity there is no "science" in the comparison. Without knowing the *actual* muzzle velocity there's no way of knowing if the drop you recorded is the expected drop. This is why a lot of people, as @armorpl8chikn said while I was typing this, roll their own subs for their particular rifle configuration. Not adjusting the optic before switching to subs makes it even a little bit less "sciency".
If it's OK to hunt with 300BLK subs then it's OK to hunt with 308 subs because they are the exact same thing.
The "point" of 308 subs is someone can get exactly the same ballistic performance of 300BLK subs without having to buy a whole new platform. The only thing you're giving up is the cycling of semi-auto performance that 300BLK delivers. Same thing applies for 45 subs or 9mm subs just like @hlee said it's really hard to chamber a 45 in a 308 so the "reason" for 308 subs is I don't have a 45.
This is no different than the comparison between .458 SOCOM subs and 45-70 subs ... they are both capable of shooting basically the same bullet but one is readily available in semi-auto and the other isn't.
^^^^this is the way
@tinker
Now you see....if you were making your own subs, you could simply invert the bullets in the case, and suddenly, that stupid friggin "levin ana quarter" twist, would work just fine for subs.
You still gotta adjust your optics.....
You obviously have never even seen a deer,
if'n you believe their necks are the size of a skinny rope??And no, I'm not advocating, merely relaying information I've heard/listened to, most are depression era stories.
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Pretty sure most 300BLK rifles have 1:8 or faster twists, 1:7 is probably recommended for big slow moving subs
At 1:11 or slower bullets are probably tumbling on a regular basis even if they're moving at the "optimum" 1030-1050 fps.
Basically the setup completely invalidates everything in your video even not taking into account no adjustments to optics.
It's nothing but misinformation.
My group pic on page 1 was from a r700 5r 24" 1/11 twist. no key holing with 190 subx. I was surprised.
Yeah, at 24" you may be getting closer to the "optimum" velocity and maybe a little more rotational speed but it's all marginal without a fast enough twist.
I would like to know what powders you have used ? ( I see data from H&N for their lead copper/plastic coated lead bullets listing VV N110 at a starting charge of 17 gr ) I am wondering if this could be worked down to subsonic velocities with 165 to 200 gr powder coated lead ? Your thoughts welcome .
I'm not "relaying" information.
I'm referencing actual depredation permit kills.
I didn't say their necks were the size of a skinny rope. I assumed you knew something about actual deer anatomy.
The neck is a series of heavy muscle and heavy odd shaped bone. The actual area that results in the shutdown of the CNS is....a rope. A half inch rope to be more precise. A rope that has armor sheathing to protect it.
Even a high velocity bullet needs to hit bone in a deers neck, ok now your kill zone is 1.5inches max rope that you need to cause severe trauma.
I suppose you could get lucky and hit the carotid or jugular pipes....but they are tiny...and quite elastic.
Brain shot is a larger more sure target for shutting down the CNS...ESPECIALLY when you are talking about a small slow lead bullet.
Won't be much difference with any subsonic round until you start talking about 300gr+ projectiles.
I didn't get my info from Fudds at the LGS.
Here are some good anatomy pictures of a whitetail. My actual hands on experience indicates these are accurate. Your picture of a whitetail are very cute though.
Another good shot, especially if close, is the brachial plexus zone, AKA, high shoulder. That is also a CNS shutdown. It functionally drops the deer in that spot, which is helpful in case you are near neighboring property to which you do not have permission to enter. It is a small target.
Shooting the heart and lungs in the vital V will result in death but a deer can run 100 yards or more on those final heart beats.
Shooting the heart and lungs in the vital V will result in death but a deer can run 100 yards or more on those final heart beats.
Absolutely a premiere shot. Heavily armored by the shoulder blades at most angles.
Absolutely doable with a subsonic......
I'll take "300+ grains of lead" for the shoulder pin, Alex.
Or....if you have an over population of skinny butted little white tails that are decimating your stack yards
Hay that you need to feed your cows
And have the OK from the local game warden to shoot and leave em lay (bonus is the coyotes shot off the carcasses, back when hides were worth something, bought a lot of .22 shells)
It is still more humane than letting Mother Nature control the over population with CWD or EHD, that is a cruel way to die.
.22LR can be very effective on deer sized game
My friend, John, would hunt does on his aunt's property in Oklahoma with a .50 cal black powder muzzleloader. At work, on lunch, I would watch him take some time to smelt his own balls from lead.
Then he would be a sneaky bastard and get into the woods and find a place and sit and be still. He always got a couple each season.
I also think a fast or magnum round will do it, such as my 7 PRC. I know someone who would suggest that even deer could use a .300 WM treatment.
I have not tried subsonic but I could see that close enough and massive enough, it is going to work. Thanks to Newton. p=mv. You can pick which one you want the bigger number. m or v. In some cases, I think more m is preferrable.
