Gunsmithing Making a Short Barrel Legal

[CUTRIGHT]

I'm thinking about a short barrel rifle build, like a 15" with a brake installed permanently to surpass the legal length at 16.5".
My question is what's considered permanent? I was thinking about installing the brake in the normal manner then cross drilling and pinning the threads, will this satisfy the feds or do I need to silver soldier it?

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Making a Short Barrel Legal

Have the smith machine and integral brake.

 

[gunnergirl81]

Re: Making a Short Barrel Legal

There's a variety of ways to satisfy the "permanent" requirement. We drill the device, run the threads to clean them up, screw it on, time it, drill slightly into the barrel, put a pin in place, weld over it, and reshape/refinish. There are many who will simply cut a channel in the muzzle threads, cover it in silver solder paste, screw on the device and heat it. I've even seen a few brave/foolish enough to drown the threads in red locktite and go.

It has been explained to me that in the unlikely event it comes into question the devide needs to be affixed in a manner that it cannot be removed by hand or with normal use of simple hand tools. Obviously we go to an extreme just shy of a direct weld to the barrel, but we tend to err on the side of caution.

So there you go, a middle of the road ambiguous answer to a question that too many seem to interpret in too many ways.

 

[300sniper]

Re: Making a Short Barrel Legal

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-2.pdf

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The ATF procedure for measuring barrel length is to measure from the closed bolt (or breech-face) to
the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device. <span style="text-decoration: underline">Permanent methods of
attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100°F) silver
soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over.</span> Barrels are measured by inserting a dowel rod
into the barrel until the rod stops against the bolt or breech-face. The rod is then marked at the
furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device, withdrawn from the barrel, and
measured.</div></div>.

 

[Hink]

Re: Making a Short Barrel Legal

If you're wanting a short barrel, then the easiest (least questions of construction and legality) is the pistol route. Any barrel length is legal, but take care to maintain your configuration to not provide a second place to hold the weapon -- that makes it a rifle.

For a 16" -ish weapon, I'd personally forgoe all questions of legality and just rock a 16" barrel. I don't see the draw of going with a shorter barrel and attaching something to the muzzle to make it longer than 16" -- there's no ballistic or functional/ergonomic benefit to that configuration that I can see.

 

[CUTRIGHT]

Re: Making a Short Barrel Legal

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AZPrecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Have the smith machine and integral brake. </div></div>
I'm the smith on this job.

 

[CUTRIGHT]

Re: Making a Short Barrel Legal

Nice avatar Kenda.
Thanks for the link 300SNIPER, it takes me for ever to find anything on that site.

 

[CUTRIGHT]

Re: Making a Short Barrel Legal

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hink</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you're wanting a short barrel, then the easiest (least questions of construction and legality) is the pistol route. Any barrel length is legal, but take care to maintain your configuration to not provide a second place to hold the weapon -- that makes it a rifle.

For a 16" -ish weapon, I'd personally forgoe all questions of legality and just rock a 16" barrel. I don't see the draw of going with a shorter barrel and attaching something to the muzzle to make it longer than 16" -- there's no ballistic or functional/ergonomic benefit to that configuration that I can see. </div></div>
I don't want a pistol, I want a 16.5" total barrel length and a brake so I'm gonna have to make it short.

 

[gunnergirl81]

Re: Making a Short Barrel Legal

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hink</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> there's no ballistic or functional/ergonomic benefit to that configuration that I can see. </div></div>

Tell that to folks transitioning from the interior of a vehicle. The USGI issue M4 is a 14.5" barrel that with an A2 FH is a hair under 16". Some folks just want the looks, and some folks notice every inch of length when moving the weapon around. An inch off of your OAL make's a difference.

 

[Hink]

Re: Making a Short Barrel Legal

Thanks for the example, Kenda. I could have been more specific in my word choice.

For those transitioning from in vehicle to out of vehicle engagements, I'll agree that every inch of the weapons system should be considered as a whole to reduce the possibility of catching or in any way inhibiting the operator's exit. But those who are seriously considering employing a rifle in these situations are likely LEO/MIL and th minimum barrel length requirements do not apply.

In retrospect, my earlier comment (post a couple above here) was made in haste. I can and do understand that there are examples in the civilian world where a short barreled weapon could be beneficial to tue operator, such as varmint control and other examples. But I have grown tired of the "10 inch barrel and six inch flash hider" mall ninja setups that benefit the shooter in no way at all. Overall length is the same as a 16" barrel, but muzzle velocity, effective range, and accuracy all suffer as a result. Hence, my suggestion of a short barrel being used for a pistol setup, and a longer length barrel being used for a rifle length build.

 

[CUTRIGHT]

Re: Making a Short Barrel Legal

I'm not using the rifle for anything other than some varmint use and some informal long range shooting. I have an old Winchester Laredo 300 win mag that I'm thinking about chopping off some of the excess barrel and threading the muzzle at two different diameters so I can screw the muzzle brake on then slide a flash hider over the brake and thread it onto the second and larger thread tennon so that the muzzle blast would be no different than a rifle without a brake.
I can then use the 150gr bullets at a high enough velocity to do what they were made to do and have enough gas blowing through the brake to make it very effective at recoil reduction with out blasting my ears or kicking up a dust storm.
Now that I have thought things over some more I'm probly going to leave barrel at 16.5 inches so I can take the brake off to clean it every now & then with out committing a felony. Thanks for the info I'm sure I'll end up some day pinning a brake to keep things legal.

 

[CUTRIGHT]

Re: Making a Short Barrel Legal

I'm still wondering at what point does a setup like the one I described above get considered by the gov. to be a suppressor?
I first thought I'd leave the flash hider open the full diameter at the muzzle then I thought about the extra recoil reduction if I were to make muzzle opening just .020 bigger than the bullet diameter.
BTW: I don't like the looks of the 10 inch barrel with a 6" flash hider either.

 

[Hink]

Re: Making a Short Barrel Legal

If there is a reduction in report, then it's a suppressor. It sounds like your proposal was to have two different threads, one say 5/8 x 24 and then, closer to the muzzle 1/2 x 28. A muzzle break would thread onto the 1/2" thread and a larger ID tube would slide over the brake and thread on the 5/8 thread. This sounds very close to being a suppressor to me...but you may want to come up with a drawing and ask your local ATF branch. Remember -- free advice on the internet is worth what you paid.

If you're looking for a good brake, hit up HateCA for one of his Rad brakes. Smaller OD than a Badget FTE, but just as good for recoil reduction according to many reviews. There's very little length or weight added with either the RAD or FTE, but you raise a very valid point about keeping the barrel at 16" for the cleaning of the brake and barrel.

 

[CUTRIGHT]

Re: Making a Short Barrel Legal

I'm going to call them in the morning.
I have some of the same talk going over on the suppressor forum and I'm not getting much out of it. I just thought I might start an interesting topic and make a few buddies while I'm at it.
I thought the flash hider over the brake was a good idea and I've never seen one in use like that.

 

[Anchor Zero Six]

Re: Making a Short Barrel Legal

Norcal Precision made a similar brake/flash supressor. I beleive he has since retired but the pics that were on his sight showed the device dissasembled.

Here is a pic...not that it does you any good without seeing the shroud removed http://www.tacticalintervention.com/reviewsnorcalnighthawk.html

DBMG makes the RBF which allows a supressor to be attached within the device...silly as it may sound the reason for it was WA dosnt allow SBR's. Bearing that in mind if you wanted an SBR with a supressor you would need to perm attach the can, not many are comfortable with that. The solution was the RBF which can be perm attached and add the needed lenghth to keep you out of jail when the can is removed. You can see in the pic that there are holes in the device...this was the final verdict from ATF to make them happy. https://dbmg-llc.3dcartstores.com/Flash-Hiders_c_8.html

BTW they pin and weld as well, seems to be the prefered/easiest method but certainly not the only one.

 

[50calibercruiser]

Re: Making a Short Barrel Legal

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Anchor Zero Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Norcal Precision made a similar brake/flash supressor. I beleive he has since retired but the pics that were on his sight showed the device dissasembled.

Here is a pic...not that it does you any good without seeing the shroud removed http://www.tacticalintervention.com/reviewsnorcalnighthawk.html

DBMG makes the RBF which allows a supressor to be attached within the device...silly as it may sound the reason for it was WA dosnt allow SBR's. Bearing that in mind if you wanted an SBR with a supressor you would need to perm attach the can, not many are comfortable with that. The solution was the RBF which can be perm attached and add the needed lenghth to keep you out of jail when the can is removed. You can see in the pic that there are holes in the device...this was the final verdict from ATF to make them happy. https://dbmg-llc.3dcartstores.com/Flash-Hiders_c_8.html

BTW they pin and weld as well, seems to be the prefered/easiest method but certainly not the only one. </div></div>

I just built a 7.62 X 25 upper for my AR. I was toying with the idea of SRBing it but then I had another idea. Could I cut the barrel to say 8" and permanently weld a large (1.75" I.D. by 8.5" long to get me to 16.5") flash hider to the barrel? The idea being that when I attach my can the total length would only be 18" including the can. But when you take it off the barrel/flash hider would still be 16.5" Basically the can would go inside the flash hider.

Is this what is going on with the DBMG product?

I figured the ATF would try to call it a shroud or something. I guess I need to find a legal definition of a flash hider.

 

[Oodin]

Re: Making a Short Barrel Legal

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 50calcruiser</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just built a 7.62 X 25 upper for my AR. I was toying with the idea of SRBing it but then I had another idea. Could I cut the barrel to say 8" and permanently weld a large (1.75" I.D. by 8.5" long to get me to 16.5") flash hider to the barrel? The idea being that when I attach my can the total length would only be 18" including the can. But when you take it off the barrel/flash hider would still be 16.5" Basically the can would go inside the flash hider.</div></div>Something like this what you had in mind? TacSol

 

[CUTRIGHT]

Re: Making a Short Barrel Legal

Quote:
Norcal Precision made a similar brake/flash supressor. I beleive he has since retired but the pics that were on his sight showed the device dissasembled.
Here is a pic...not that it does you any good without seeing the shroud removed http://www.tacticalintervention.com/reviewsnorcalnighthawk.html

Thanks, Anchor Zero Six,
This is basically what I have in mind only with nothing blowing back at the shooter.
I had a talk with the ATF Firearms Technology Branch today. They said to go ahead and build it and send it in for a review.
I have a piece of a 6mm BR barrel here and a used muzzle brake to make a prototype out of so I'll get started on the "flash hider" soon and get it in the mail.
They said it can take as long as 60 days to get aproval, but they don't anticipate any problems getting it passed based on my description.

 

[CUTRIGHT]

Re: Making a Short Barrel Legal

I figured somebody out there had the same idea at sometime or another. Its not uncommon for two or more people to start thinking about the same idea without knowing who the other one is, or in this case I find out somebody already did something similar and it just hasn't caught on enough for me to here about it yet.
I think having a good working muzzle brake without all the blast could be beneficial to shooters in many different disciplines.
I like the idea of some day using this piece on a hunting rifle. I don't mind making a shot without hearing protection unless the rifle has a brake on it then I will not hunt with it.
If I can tame the recoil and have the noise level be like normal I'll be using a big rifle more.

 

[AK10mm]

Re: Making a Short Barrel Legal

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cutright</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Quote:
Norcal Precision made a similar brake/flash supressor. I beleive he has since retired but the pics that were on his sight showed the device dissasembled.
Here is a pic...not that it does you any good without seeing the shroud removed http://www.tacticalintervention.com/reviewsnorcalnighthawk.html

Thanks, Anchor Zero Six,
This is basically what I have in mind only with nothing blowing back at the shooter.
I had a talk with the ATF Firearms Technology Branch today. They said to go ahead and build it and send it in for a review.
I have a piece of a 6mm BR barrel here and a used muzzle brake to make a prototype out of so I'll get started on the "flash hider" soon and get it in the mail.
They said it can take as long as 60 days to get aproval, but they don't anticipate any problems getting it passed based on my description. </div></div>

They said it was OK to just make it and send it in ? Nothing else needed from them ? I guess I could see that as the "Intent" is not to Manufacture a Suppressor.On the same subject,those super long shotgun bbl's were manufactured with the intent to cut down on noise and blast near populated areas,yet are not considered a suppressor.

 

[CUTRIGHT]

Re: Making a Short Barrel Legal

Yes, they said since it is being made with their approval and sent to them for inspection that I will face no consequence if it is considered a suppressor.
If it is a suppressor they will give me the opportunity to register it or have it destroyed.

 

[CUTRIGHT]

Re: Making a Short Barrel Legal

Yes, the shotgun barrel thing is a contradiction.
I don't see why some sound suppression is such a big deal. When a subdivision goes up next to an existing range the first thing everyone complains about is the noise.

 

[50calibercruiser]

Re: Making a Short Barrel Legal

Sweet! Problem solved.

 

[Anchor Zero Six]

Re: Making a Short Barrel Legal

Cutright,

Correct the DBMG item is there to add length to the barrel while still alowing attachment of a sound supressor (remember no SBR in WA). It matters not if the section has rifling or not just so long as its a permanent part of the barrel (such as pin and welded).


IMO save yourself the postage ahead of time and look at your design from the perspective of could it be turned into a supressor. If the answer is yes then you may just want to go ahead and vent it somehow so its not possible.