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Managing Intra String Wind Shifts?

M

Mo_Zam_Beek

Private
Minuteman
Jan 21, 2002
0
7
OR_GUN
I (probably like many here) shoot on public land, in my case - in the middle of the forests of Southern Oregon; which categorically means lots and lots of topographical change within the confines of a small physical area.

These topo features act like a funnel, except it is really more like 5 different funnels all dumping out in the flite path. Any shift in wind at the big end of any one the funnels is amplified at the other end.

Here is an example from yesterday:

GoogleImage1.jpg


GoogleImage2.jpg


Yesterday I was shooting at @ 1,540 yrds. Wind was .25 to 2.75 MILs, and intra 5 shot string wind holds could change by as much as 1.5 MILs.

I typically shoot by myself.

How can I better learn to pick up subtle wind changes which can make a big shift at the target.

** I have a wind meter, I shoot with a suppressor - so I can hear the wind changes. What is frustrating is the 1/2 MIL + shifts that happen intra string when I can not feel, see, or hear any difference at the shooting position. While I can look through my spotter 2/3s of the way down range between each shot - by the time I get back to my rifle optic and ready to fire a subtle change can occur.

Sadly at these distances a lot of my hits come from bracketing the wind with my rounds, but the shifts come fast and at these distances a very small change in wind means more than the width of my target (17.75").

Thanks in advance for thoughts and tips on being able to recognize these subtle shifts.


Good luck
 
Re: Managing Intra String Wind Shifts?

MZB

I believe the simple answer is you cannot effectively shoot and observe changing field conditions at the same time. I had the same difficulty shooting ELR - The answer was to find a reliable & dedicated shooting partner - spotter - that could recognize changing field conditions to improve the effectiveness of my attempts to hit targets under field conditions at extended ranges. Joe and I have been shooting together for a little over a year. We are learning to trust one another's judgment & ability in reading changing conditions to allow us to make rather long shots on demand. The proof of this comes from several instances where we have an actual ability to place many first & second round hits on 1+ mile targets on demand. I think I get the better end of the deal because Joe is a better wind doper than me, but I am improving all the time in this area at the extended ranges & environments we are presently shooting at.

My advice is to find someone that is as dedicated as you are in this area, certainly not an easy thing to do, but a worthy effort non the less! Until then, you are simply at the mercy of the field conditions that exist from shot to shot...

One thing I have observed in many instance is people who shoot alone try to observe bullet impacts, in a lot of instance disrupt the hold on the sights trying to get back on target to determine impact errors. Try to ignore the impulse to see the impact, or error & see if this produces better results for you? I see this happen a lot at my facility when shooters attempt engagements on my field course. Once this is corrected, in a lot of instances the shooters become more effective at hitting the targets with a lower round count, if not hit within one or two attempts.

Good Luck, always remember, the harder you work the luckier you get!!

Aug ><>
 
Re: Managing Intra String Wind Shifts?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One thing I have observed in many instance is people who shoot alone try to observe bullet impacts, in a lot of instance disrupt the hold on the sights trying to get back on target to determine impact errors.</div></div>

If the rifle is driven correctly, it is no problem for the shooter to observe impacts, as the target doesn't move out of the field of view during recoil.

The solution to spotting impacts is to drive the rifle correctly.
 
Re: Managing Intra String Wind Shifts?

MZB, I am the exact boat as you. I have many of the same issues as you do. Augustis, that is good advise. Lindy is correct. When I drive it good I have no problem spotting impacts or misses. My issues stem from vegetation covering misses.
 
Re: Managing Intra String Wind Shifts?

When I hit rocks or dry dirt - I am in good shape. Most of the time that isn't the case. There is too much veg and wet dirt at this time.
 
Re: Managing Intra String Wind Shifts?

I too am in the same boat. I shoot in very similar areas to you up here in NW Wa. It's allmost always to wet to see impacts, & the lay of the land doesn't lend itself to placing wind markers between target, & shooter. My best advise is to search for spots with sandy/rocky backdrops to ease sighting misses, & spend a while before the shooting session observing the tendencies of the wind. I might spend 10-15 min. observing before a long shot like that, & try to see what the mirage in the scope looks like when something changes. Hope it helps.
 
Re: Managing Intra String Wind Shifts?

Assuming you are on public land, you are in gross violation of the law (and common sense) with that shooting setup.
 
Re: Managing Intra String Wind Shifts?

It is a very tough thing to do. Concentrate on the hold and watch the wind. Finding a good spotter to train is the best route.
Glance across the field and adjsut parallaxe watching for grass and tree movment from the wind and mirage change between you and the target. Have your wind dopes ready to change and make the quick shoot. I usually use hold overs once I get it in the ballpark for a string of shoots to reduce time messing around. Wind can change very quickly. Watch for the pulses in the wind. They are fairly predictable. Practice practice practice. Learning wind doesn't come quick. Use good glass.
 
Re: Managing Intra String Wind Shifts?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Assuming you are on public land, you are in gross violation of the law (and common sense) with that shooting setup. </div></div>

9H - The law in OR is very clear - you can not shoot <span style="font-weight: bold">across</span> a road - regardless of what kind it is (paved, improved, skid trail). And yes I have had the conversation with LE both on site (as in while shooting like this) as well as off regarding shooting in this manner.

Regarding your jab at common sense - ironic statement b/c you are ignorant of the process - so I will explain: Here I set the target @ 50 yards below the road line. This means that in addition to the lineal safety area, a vertical safety of more than 100' of elevation had been created (that's more than 21 MILs of safety for those not paying attention). Secondly, I can see the only road approaching the target area for @ 3/4 of a mile and on the other side - a car would have to pass the shooting position. This area gets little traffic. While there on a nice Saturday mid afternoon for @ 3 hours, one jeep passed me. Also, I am shooting with a suppressor - I hear anything and everything. If it is a vehicle I can hear the engine noise usually @ 5 minutes ahead of their arrival, you can even hear the gravel crunch under a tire at almost 2k as long as you have direct line of site.

You should get off the KD range and out into the woods - you might understand what you can see, hear, and how to safely do things as opposed to just throwing darts from the vantage point of your couch.

Thanks for crapping on the thread though.

From what you have posted about yourself - you are quite a shooter - do you have any advice? Or are you just here to babble about things you don't know anything about - like the law and practical shooting?



Good luck


 
Re: Managing Intra String Wind Shifts?

MZB,

I know this certainly wouldn't be possible in a tactical situation but have your tried going out with a partner and just watching wind? Letting down fly in particular areas in the bullets flight path to see what it's tendencies are? (you're just spotting at this time, no rifles are even out). Just watching wind and it's trends.
That will give you a 'normal tendency' for that specific site and can't always relate to other tactical situations you come across. But you may find similar trends in other places. However sometimes it can give you indicators during different times of the day as to which way the wind wants to move if no fronts/storms moving in.

BTW, I never knew you couldn't shoot across a trail. In MN and back in NV it was always that you couldn't shoot across a 'maintained road' Even if that road isn't always maintained. And, FWIW, you show common sense by simply being way away from people and plenty of vision both directions if someone does come.
 
Re: Managing Intra String Wind Shifts?

Good points on watching the wind.

I have shot in this and several other areas that effectively look the same enough to have figured out the seasonal predominate wind direction.

Member XLR was kind enough to send me a PM (I have gotten several from members here - thank you all BTW) regarding a question he got answer from 'Later' on regarding wind. Later was discussing the need to chase down the predominate seasonal wind patterns from NOAA.

One other thing that I have figured out and it something that I have seen Frank / Lindy / Tactical - et al discuss before: wind flowing through varying land features is akin to water flowing in a stream. I have learned to recognize that depending on air flow and terrain while the wind may be blowing pretty good in one direction, what is more important are the dominant land features surrounding the flite path as they create different vorticities - often the exact opposite or some funky up draft. I tend to think of it in terms of terrain generated and elevation stratified wind. I can generally recognize these trouble spots in advance off a quad map or once on site. Doesn't change the fact that they are all a bit different or that it is extremely hard to pick up small changes at the big end of the funnel that make for 1/2 MIL + shifts at the small end of the pipe.

Good luck
 
Re: Managing Intra String Wind Shifts?

MZB,

What is easily overlooked in this type of ELR shooting is the concept that depending on distance vs caliber..the projectile is possibly flying in a different wind "sheet" that what you or the target is located in.

You should get your topo maps and overlay the laminar windflow patterns on it and compare your shooting position, target position and anything in between..not only at shooter and target position but pay attention to elevation of projectile in regards to you and target in comparison to the laminar windflow patterns in accordance to your terrain.
 
Re: Managing Intra String Wind Shifts?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
BTW, I never knew you couldn't shoot across a trail. In MN and back in NV it was always that you couldn't shoot across a 'maintained road' Even if that road isn't always maintained. And, FWIW, you show common sense by simply being way away from people and plenty of vision both directions if someone does come. </div></div>

Each state has different laws. The applicable one in OR is ORS 166.630. As for the rest of it - I just look at it like how would I want someone to be shooting LR if I was driving on the road.....


Good luck
 
Re: Managing Intra String Wind Shifts?

Your red dot is on the road at the right and on the left the impact area down range from the target is - a road.

It has nothing to do with state law when you are on federal land - NFS rules are the same regardless of state. And it is 50 feet from the center line of the road you cannot fire from, let alone the road itself.

I stand behind my comments based on your picture.

If you think I spend all my time on a square range, thing again. I'm helping a bud set up shots on his private property surrounded by other private property. Right now we have 1075 set up and are scoping out a lane for about 1700 yds. We hope to be able to establish an intermediate firing point as well.

I'm sure my knowledge of "tactical" shooting pales to yours, so carry on. Having ridden up on shooters shooting across and down roads while on a motorcycle, something that covers ground 5-8 times faster than a Jeep, your area is not as remote in my mind as it is in yours. If you can get to it, shoot some, and go home, then others can get to it as well.

Your picture does not match your description - so which is correct?

I was with a group of 'hiders about 15 months ago in a supposedly good shooting location - target at 726 yards, well off the road, legal by NFS standards. A guy parked on the road parallel to our target while we were shooting, found our target, walked out to it, pulled his weenie out, and pissed on it - while 4 of us were set up to fire.

Yea I am a bit sensitive when I see pics like yours.



 
Re: Managing Intra String Wind Shifts?

You don't know this is federal land, or do you? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. If it is US Forestry Service, these rules would apply: http://law.justia.com/us/cfr/title36/36-2.0.1.1.18.1.29.12.html

If it is federal land but under BLM, then these rules would apply (which incorporates state law, by the way): http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/Recreation/recreation_national/Shooting_Sports_Hunting.html

None of these rules state what you contend is federal law. MZB has consulted w/ LEA as well as legal counsel. I suggest you quit while you are behind.
 
Re: Managing Intra String Wind Shifts?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your red dot is on the road at the right and on the left the impact area down range from the target is - a road.

I stand behind my comments based on your picture.

Your picture does not match your description - so which is correct?

Yea I am a bit sensitive when I see pics like yours.

</div></div>

<span style="font-style: italic">I have had the conversation with LE both on site (as in while shooting like this)......Here I set the target @ 50 yards below the road line. This means that in addition to the lineal safety area, a vertical safety of more than 100' of elevation had been created (that's more than 21 MILs of safety for those not paying attention). Secondly, I can see the only road approaching the target area for @ 3/4 of a mile and on the other side - a car would have to pass the shooting position. This area gets little traffic. While there on a nice Saturday mid afternoon for @ 3 hours, one jeep passed me. Also, I am shooting with a suppressor - I hear anything and everything. If it is a vehicle I can hear the engine noise usually @ 5 minutes ahead of their arrival, you can even hear the gravel crunch under a tire at almost 2k as long as you have direct line of site.</span>


RIF - can you figure out where the FP and the target are now? 21 MILs safety fan - think about it - when you look at the pic and there is a road near the target you have no appreciation for how steep the terrain is. My 1st round - I was 1 MIL low, windage was 100%. Final adj was 14.4 MILs.

Granted - you've had neg experiences. Great. Got it. Not everyone is clueless - something you may want to consider.

Now, you want talk about wind or continue to stand on how you are the expert when you don't know the law nor have you ever laid eyes on the site and thus are in no position to comment on the sufficiency of the safety set up?

If it is the latter - time for you to jump off.

Good luck
 
Re: Managing Intra String Wind Shifts?

This thread appears to be going down the toilet pretty fast... What does any of this have to do with doping wind, or spotting impacts at ELR ranges??? NOTHING!! Just based off the formulation of the mature question MZB asked, it sounds like he pretty well squared away & has his S#it together to me!! Sorry about this _9H, my suggestion, or advise to you (even though you never asked for any) is dont go away mad, just go away... & I mean this in the nicest way possible ;O)

Aug ><>
 
Re: Managing Intra String Wind Shifts?

What is the possibility of using one tracer? Is there any fire danger? Are they legal in your state? They are not here in Kalifornia but they may be a benefit on first round down range.
 
Re: Managing Intra String Wind Shifts?

Tracers - while I could probably fire one safely for the next couple of weeks, we dry out pretty quick. In fact late summer, when 'Hoot Owl' is declared - cease logging ops by noon and then watch for fire for a couple of hours before you leave - I am leery of shooting steel in general and typically just shoot paper. In OR, if you're found to be negligent on starting the fire - you pay for it $$$. Not to mention whole 'good steward' of the lands and your community... and being "that guy".

However again my issue isn't really elevation or even so much an initial wind call - I am going to be close enough to find it right around the target if I miss and if I hit rock or dry dirt. My real issue is how do you detect a subtle change in the wind mid string that ends up being a bigger shift than my target is wide? Kind of like what Later is saying about variable winds at different altitudes coupled with the funnel effect of the terrain - it is a tough read (for me any way).

Good luck

 
Re: Managing Intra String Wind Shifts?

Hey Later - how are you guesstimating winds aloft so to speak or wind speed and direction at various altitudes.

Better yet - tell me what I am doing wrong:

- Wind meter at FP
- Spotter at 1/2 and 2/3s looking for wind indicators but I am using the hillside as the background as I am looking for mirage, tree and small veg movement.

Are you inferring that I should be calculating the projectile rise from the muzzle at the 1/2 and 2/3 points (or significant land feature) MILing that point above bore and down range and looking for mirage?

TIA
 
Re: Managing Intra String Wind Shifts?

I would think a tracer would be counter-productive anyway, different BC I would expect from developed data & established ammo & while sighter shots are considered acceptable in formal shooting disciplines, typically should frowned upon in active field shooting operations that would remove the element of surprise of the intended target. "Train Real"

MZB, we calculate "max ord" & then try to use the landscape back drop when available to determine conditions that may exist, if & when possible. To be honest we dont ever use wind meters at the FP anymore, like you, because of the ranges & topography features that exist in the broken country that we typically shoot at, which stirs & swirls the air currents wind meters are all but worthless! I would think the best indicator of conditions will be the mirage, or movement of the veg if you can detect movement directions & patterns AND get the shot off while the condition holds, but for the life of me I dont know how you can do both at the same time, let alone track trace to the target shooting by yourself? Ultimately each bullet that is sent down range is the best teacher in learning to read field conditions, watching someone else shoot helps in the area of the learning curve that exists in this area of marksmanship development. Sorry I cannot offer more help than I already have bro!

As far as driving the rifle, I could not agree more in the theory of this principal, it sounds good & can readily be accomplished when operating a .308 class light rifle in most instance - maybe can be even more readily accomplished on a dedicated range. However, I am driving a 26lb 50-BMG & for the life of me I cannot typically see my bullet impacts on targets even though I hit the target until I am shooting at a distance that gives my inbound payload the hang time of the goodyear blimp!!

What I typically observe is my bipod legs digging into soft earth that exists in the field (sandy loam) because of recoil I expect - once I observed a depth of over 1.5" deep - in only 3 shots fired on that target. Depending on the time of year, I have had similar experience with my 19lb 300 RUM & my getter done rifle in .308. With that, I dont even try to observe bullet impacts anymore, I rely on the guy on my 6 with the heavy glass - that is his job. If everything goes favorable, a hit, if not a correction call... & in 2 or sometimes 3 shots fired on a single target we are done one way or the other...

Edited to Add:

What we try to emphasize to shooters is to concentrate on follow through on the rifle as a means to not develop the habit of looking for the bullet impacts through the scope to prevent disruption of the sight alignment on the target. It has been our experience that this has resulted in lower round count hits on targets once we work this out this detail, FWIW??

Aug ><>
 
Re: Managing Intra String Wind Shifts?

MZB,

I was reading Augustis last post and he makes the good point about watching vegetation. As you well know the vegetation varies a lot in this country from one end to the other. On that line what I was thinking, if you ever just want to go out and observe as I suggested before about the SPECIFIC vegetation you will come across. Meaning Timothy grass is going to bend more than Brome grass. Brome grass BTW is what is mostly covering the green, but un-cultivated, hills on Augustis ranch. You may also find another kind of cultivated grass out west which is crested wheat grass. You will find that over on the dry side in Oregon, usually in the foothills. It was a BLM program to "re-grass" the west so that people could graze BLM ground. Anyhow, it's stiffer than timothy grass. Then you have white and blue sage, juniper trees, pinion. Where you are at is clearly up where there is large pine and fir.

What I'm saying is, as best you can find a clear spot close to your object,on a gusty day and see how much the wind bends specific vegetation at a given windspeed. How much does a Douglas bend vs. a noble or silver. This is probably the best use of your windmeter. As Augustis pointed out it's all gonna be different 10 ft. from the muzzle when shooting in broken country like that. But knowing what each individual indicator does in a given wind helps when you can find that along your bullets path.
 
Re: Managing Intra String Wind Shifts?

Yup - Yup, if wind is thought of like the water in a river, the veg is what gives us a good indication of the currents that exist! Spending time on a spotting scope watching someone else shoot is a good way to learn to be observant of those conditions & the effects of bullet deflection.


Aug ><>
 
Re: Managing Intra String Wind Shifts?

MZB

I have a question, are you making any calculations, or correcting for spin drift??

Aug ><>
 
Re: Managing Intra String Wind Shifts?

I will just add one more variable, the possibility of the wind moving upwards when it hits a wall or dead end that does not allow it to "shift" direction as the water example would...thus making you hit higher also.

I normally rely on grass/bushes, mirage if I can see it, predominant wind in my shooting point and a lot of guessing depending on the speed and direction of the wind in relation with the shape of the mountain tops and slopes..<<<<I dont even carry a windmeter.. should buy one soon..

I also tend to shoot alone, so do not use a spotting scope as I´d rather not change my position. If I can spot my hit, I´m better off maintaining position and playing with the wind variable, rather than adding one more ( position change) if using a spotting scope.

<very interesting thread.
 
Re: Managing Intra String Wind Shifts?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gyr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I also tend to shoot alone, so do not use a spotting scope as I´d rather not change my position. If I can spot my hit, I´m better off maintaining position and playing with the wind variable, rather than adding one more ( position change) if using a spotting scope.
<very interesting thread.</div></div>
You should get some friends.
smile.gif
 
Re: Managing Intra String Wind Shifts?

....yes... and more time and more practice..very low total round count for me.
 
Re: Managing Intra String Wind Shifts?

I am shooting very similar area & set-up to yours . I put in big hours setting this place up. I was out with a hoe & shovel clearing and smoothing-off around the dirt. around all my target hangers & steel. I know what you are talking about for sure on how hard it is to see you misses in this terrain. Friggin windy here sometime too.
Also FEEL your Pain in trying to read the wind as it funnels threw and rotors . Really hard to read the push & pull .
PM sent to you also.
.
 
Re: Managing Intra String Wind Shifts?

This thread appears dead, but I will add this closing thought to add to the thread for those that may be interested...

Shooting at the listed range of 1500 yards, learn to calculate & correct for spin drift & coriolis deflection. I personally believe (your millage may vary) it will increase the probabilities of a lower round count, in relationship to recorded hits - or misses that are potentially being solely attributed to wind deflection. These conditions are something that can be accounted for, & corrected on the sights to reduce the accumulated errors that can stack up against us at these extended ranges - but are not potentially that big of an issue to those that only shoot out to a max range of 1K.

Disclaimer: This is NOT intended to start a debate of the effects, or merrit of spin drift, or coriolis deflection errors - which is a personal choice, lets leave it at that please!

Aug ><>
 
Re: Managing Intra String Wind Shifts?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey Later - how are you guesstimating winds aloft so to speak or wind speed and direction at various altitudes.
TIA</div></div>

Here is just one link that you can use..

http://www.talentfactory.dk/en/tour/wres/calculat.htm
NOTE: The topography will change and manipulate those numbers but you can get the point.

Another good link when you need to read something lol
http://squall.sfsu.edu/crws/jetstream.html
Thanks
 
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