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Marksmen issued better M14 rifles in Afghanistan

Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Narwhal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm just a civilian but are you guys finding the 7.62 AR type rifle reliable under combat conditions? Reliability is always the biggest knock I hear on the M110 style weapons - I even read somewhere that they shouldn't be fired any more than 20 rounds per day.

I have a springfield M1A scout bone stock with no accuracy modifications. It's shoots no better than 2.5 MOA even with tuned handloads (10x 5 shot groups), but it only weighs 8lbs and is reliable. I suppose that kind of accuracy lowers the hit probability at 600 yards to an unacceptable level, thus the need for the heavier, more accurate SAGE stock for the EBR role.

I'm considering a DPMS/M110 pattern AR for my personal use, but can't seem to get over the reports of poor reliability. </div></div>
I had heard that the KAC units had some issues but had since been worked out. I own a DPMS SASS and find it to be very reliable. Only issue I've had is one bad magazine that mis-feeds on occasion. Its an extremely accurate platform but its picky about ammo. As long as I feed it Federal Gold Medal it will shoot sub MOA in the 1/2-3/4 range. Anything else and it opens up to 2.0-3.0. There are a lot of good AR10 platforms available now...I think where the DPMS shines is the price. At $1900-ish its a bargain considering performance.
 
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

Thanks for the info. I just ordered my second M14 type rifle, this time an LRB tanker with an 18.5" criterion barrel. I figure the M14 is accurate enough to get reliable hits out to 400 yards in its stock form....beyond that I'll probably just stick with my R700, but it's nice to hear that there are M110 type platforms out there that could fulfill both roles.
 
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I shot the M14 in long range competition in the 80's. Among the many other things we had to do to it we also glued the action to the stock to get the needed accuracy from it.

I carried one on excercises, too. It was heavy, and awkward to carry and to use. I have tried the new ones with the plastic chassis systems and in my opinion the new stock mods make it even more awkward and less ergonomic than it used to be.

Unlike the AR platform there's still no way an M14 can remain at its peak of accuracy for any length of time under realistic conditions. It wasn't designed as, nor was it ever intended to be, a precision long range platform. It can get there, for a short time, after a lot of work, but then any free-floated AR with a good barrel will still still spank it handily. </div></div>the bedding is the key for accuracy and its weakness as well plus the op-rod has its own headaches .....
 
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My reservation on the HORUS is again, training. If you have to have a PDA to use it, it ain't fast enough.</div></div>

Training on a Horus takes about 15 minutes, no PDA required. Once the scope is mounted and zeroed, here are the steps involved in training the transition from a conventional MOA scope to a Horus:

1. Take your MOA dope. Divide it by 3.438 to convert it to mils.
</div></div>
Recipe for failure right there. Even rounding to 3.4 or 3.5 invites errors.

Mil/mil for everything, or MOA/MOA for everything. Because mils work so well for ranging, the better answer is obvious.

Of course, I guess that problem goes away with a mil Horus reticle. I like the general idea, just haven't worked with it other than hold-offs without the Christmas Tree over the years, which seem to work well enough.
 
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Recipe for failure right there. Even rounding to 3.4 or 3.5 invites errors.</div></div>

I was referring to taking people who had rifles with MOA scopes, and training them on scopes with a Horus reticle. Since most people will use the Horus to hold to about 0.1 mils - the scope is graduated in marks which are 0.2 mils apart - they'll probably round their MOA data divided by 3.438 to the nearest 0.1 mils.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Because mils work so well for ranging, the better answer is obvious.</div></div>

Mils don't work better for ranging. If you have a scope with an MOA or IPHY reticle, it works just as well. You just need a different formula for the range calculation - or a Mildot Master which works either way.
 
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

Wow, what a thread!! I have a POF 308 and love it, but am also getting a LRB done in a SAGE platform. Why, because I want to. The POF will probably shoot circles around the M1A but I dont really care. Its all about collecting fine rifles. Had to buy the book on the M1A, upkeep looks a little more intense on the M1A. It will look good in the collection.M1, M14,(or as close as I can get to one) colt 6721, AR style POF 308, DTA 308 and 338, IMI 45 UZI. Next one on the list will be an AIAW in 308. Hell, if I was made of money I would add a HK91, FAL, Poly Legend.
 
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

I'm glad to see this thread is still alive and kicking
cool.gif
 
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

He shouldn't be introduced to it cold at the reception, marshaling, and forward deployment base/camp just before he goes into combat -- that's criminal malfeasance. Sinister.

Members of 2/2 stopped by the night before rolling out to Fallujah in '04 and asked for a hand in using/sighting their M14's...plus could they have some mags. (Picture of one of them in Dave's book, House to House http://www.amazon.com/House-David-Bellavia/dp/1416574719) Gave them everything available. Still hope every round they fired wasted a donkey jockey.
Anyway, if that isn't what he said, I don't know what is.
 
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shooter5</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He shouldn't be introduced to it cold at the reception, marshaling, and forward deployment base/camp just before he goes into combat -- that's criminal malfeasance. Sinister.
</div></div>
TRAINING
 
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

It seems you are identifying some fundamental baisc marksmanship skill issues that are lacking in training? A DM and/or Sniper certainly should be capable of 1st round engagement way beyond 600yds???

Yes, you are absoluteley correct that 600yds should be fairly easy with the M4 platform in 5.56mm NATO.

The U.K just bought a US made M4/7.62MM platform off the shelf for a new section level DMR programme to extend its 1st round engagement to 1000yds + .These are NOT snipers.

Now if we did that why hasn't the US military done the same rather than costly M14 conversions/upgrades?
 
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

The more I stand back an look at all that's been said here and in other threads, the more I believe there are a number defining issues being missed.
(1) In combat the target is never standing still on a flat, mowed, range with wind flags. Just because a weapon does well in one venue does not mean it's the best for another. Do we hear the other side bitching about their AK's, 91/30's or family off shoots there of. We have been run out of more places and lost many wars do to our lack of leadership, not weapons. This latest contest will be no different.

(2) We have lowered the standard for basic weapons training, let alone combat tactics, believing our TO&E is that much better than the other side. Winning comes from the heart, not the supply chain.

(3) We believe that a magic new weapon or new food for present weapons will over come all of its'/our battlefield shortfalls.

(4) Believing you have the best battlefield equipment is nice,... but brain washing only works on those that don't know any better.
 
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Emouse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The U.K just bought a US made M4/7.62MM platform off the shelf for a new section level DMR programme to extend its 1st round engagement to 1000yds + .These are NOT snipers.

Now if we did that why hasn't the US military done the same rather than costly M14 conversions/upgrades? </div></div>

The LMT L129A1 is meant for inside 800m, using 155gr RG ball.
 
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

Thank you for posting this. Hopefully folks pay attention. Stay safe.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mac679</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EBRbuilder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The PM is constantly doing user assesments in theatre to validate that the system is doing what it is designed to do. To date, all user assesments have been favorable or we would not be building them.</div></div>

Funny, my assessment wasn't positive.

I've been carrying the M14 off and on since 2003. I'm currently carrying one in Afghanistan, as well as an M4. I will sooner (and have...between 6 & 7000' ASL) hump an M4 and M14 (with reduce ammo loads for both) for 12Km than just the M14. That's how much I don't like the platform. I will admit that the gun is fairly reliable (but so is a well lubed AR) and my weapon does shoot sub MOA (but not by much). I understand that this program is primarly a band-aid as sinister refered to it, however it is a very ill-fitting one and here's why:
1) Retraining: so now I have to retrain guys from M4s to M14s. Sure it doesn't sound like much, until your trying to train them to also use an M14 like an M4 because it's the only weapon system they have. Ever tried to do a speed reload with an M14? I'm sure some out there are going, "He's an SDM, why would he need to do that?" Because contact happens and it most likely isn't on your terms. CQM? Yeah, good luck with that and let me know how it works out for you. The M14 has a completely different manual of arms vs the M4-not to mention much shittier ergonomics. It's not an instant thing to replace the training with the AR family with an M14. I'd rather see something like KACs 16" SR25 be issued, if we're married to the idea of 7.62. At least then we'd have the same controls for minimal retraining and we'd have a small enough package to use in CQB if needs be (or in the damn jungle that a portion of my AO-and anyone else working in a farming area in Afghanistan-is).
2) Ammo commonality: At least with an SPR I can grab a mag from another guy in the squad if shit goes really south. Yes it'll be M855 and not Mk262 but it's ammo and will keep me in the fight. Good luck running back to where the gun teams are with 7.62 link, delinking it, and loading up enough mags to make yourself viable in a TIC. Think American units can't wind up in a shitstorm if they're not a SOF element dropped in well into enemy territory? Read Sebastian Junger's book "War" or read about C 2-503 and Firebase Ranch House.
3) Size/Weight: The gun is too damn big and too damn heavy for it's intended purpose. It's nearly as long as an M16 with the stock collapsed but without things (with stock collapsed) natural to an M16, like a useable length of pull, eye relief, etc.
4) SDMs are not squad snipers! Yet everyone seems to think this. The limited doctrine that exists supporting the SDMs says accurate hits to 600m. Well I've taken a rack grade M4 with a M203, shooting Brit L2A2 ball to 650m, and one of my former Soldiers hit at 700m with an M4 & ACOG. So where's the real need for SDMs? How about a marksmanship training program that actually teaches Soldiers to shoot to the ranges of their weapons. The SDM program is a result of training to the lowest common denominator.
5) Support, it's there and it isn't. Apparently one of our 45Bs was able to repair something on one of the M14s our Scout Plt has, but our unit armorer can't do anything on the gun. I hear/read about all these things that are supposed to come with the gun, well where is it if it's BII for the gun? Sekonk torque wrenches would be nice since we're getting handed scopes in Leupold rings? A Larue mount would have been a better choice (self torquing levers, what a novel idea). Good luck trying to get all the stuff that should have come with the gun to begin with.


sinister,
I don't think the EBRs come with all that equipment. At least mind didn't (I'd kind of liked the supressor to reduce dust signature, quietly remove dogs on the COP at night, etc.). PVS22s were TPE though.



Mac

ETA:
The reason folks (ie commanders) keep requesting the M14 is they don't know any better. Hell I shoot more on leave than I do at work whenever I can. </div></div>
 
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

I was issued a M14 in a SAGE stock as a Deputy Sheriff a couple of years ago. One of our higher ups saw the stock in a magazine and had the armorer order a couple. One of the higher ups who was issued one found it way too heavy for his tastes and swapped me for the AR-15 I was issued.

One of the most accurate rifles I have ever shot, but it is some kind of heavy. A SWAT guy wanted it, so I let him have it for a M16A1. If they're using those over there, they're able to reach out and touch someone.
 
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

I have gone through formal schooling with the M14 and found it to be a reliable weapon if taken care of(just like most weapons).

I have swam in the surf with it, crawled through the mud and beach sand with it, emptied the barrel of mud and water ran a cleaning rod through it once and qualified with it all in the same day.

By qualified I mean:
Command fire drills, movers at 500m(14x18 steel), elevated drills at multiple distances(8in dia. steel), transition drills from 500m to 100m, 5's and 30's(i forget the actual name for the drill but its where the target pops up at random five times, for one second, in a 30 minute period.)...etc.

It has done everything I have ever asked of it. I would take it over a AR-type rifle any day of the week. I do not trust the .556 round for its terminal ballistics past 200m. With the M14 I have no doubts at any range.

It is by no means too heavy, that is an operator issue. I have ran countless(and i mean countless)miles with it and a full combat load and didn't think anything of it. Besides the scar the charging handle has left in my side from running with it(im a lefty). but hey, chicks dig scars right?

As far as their use I can only speak for the Marine corps. Which is more of a qualification issue than anything. FAST units use them constantly(for those qualified). I was also issued one while in Iraq in '08 simply because I was one of the few in theater that had a use for one and had the certificate to use it.

I say its great that these weapons are getting into country on the squad level as long as they are not just thrown to whoever has the best rifle score, kicked a BS two day class and tossed out the door. Its just like anything else in life you get out what you put in. These guys are most likely not being taught the proper field skills and experience with the weapon to enable them to have the confidence to employ the weapon system properly. Not to mention that 90% of squad leaders do not have the tactical knowledge to properly employ a DM TEAM to their advantage.

That brings me to the team aspect. This is a weapon system. it is meant to be employed in a team of at least 2. What squad leader is going to give up his best shot and another Marine/solider(preferably one trained in observation techniques with good amount of experience behind the spotting scope) to a weapon system he is A)not familiar with and B) does not know how to properly employ?

I'm apologize for the rant but the problem is most likely not the weapon. Its the lack of both initial qualification training and sustainment training for the gunner, spotter and the unit leader.

Semper Fi
Loren
 
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Emouse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The U.K just bought a US made M4/7.62MM platform off the shelf for a new section level DMR programme to extend its 1st round engagement to 1000yds + .These are NOT snipers.</div></div>


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KevinB-KAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The LMT L129A1 is meant for inside 800m, using 155gr RG ball. </div></div>

The M14EBR-RI is for engagement out to 800 meters using 175 gr M118LR. 1000 yards is not out of the question.
 
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

EBRbuilder, what are the field maintainers taught and given (45Bs and battalion armorers, as far as M14 instruction and tools)?
 
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

The beat goes on... Different just posted this over on AR15.com:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Smith Enterprise, Inc. is supplying 300 new manufacture gas pistons to TACOM Rock Island Arsenal in support of the M14 EBR-RI rifle builds. </div></div>




He also posted this:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">U. S. Army unit - SEI will soon receive 500 (five hundred) M14 rifles for rebuild. A particular U. S. Army combat unit will receive these 500 M14 rifles with the following new components:

barrel - 16 " (sixteen inch) unlined nitrocarburized 1:10 ROT four groove M118LR chambered

stock - decision is pending

gas system - 1) thin dense chromium plated and cryogenically treated 420 stainless steel gas piston 2) nitrocarburized 416 stainless steel gas cylinder and 16 " barrel gas cylinder plug 3) billet machined combination gas cylinder lock front sight with 5/8 x 24 TPI x 0.635 male threads and 4) SEI Vortex (R) flash hider. For the engineering types, the gas piston surface finish will be 16 microinches. The gas cylinder and gas cylinder plug surface hardness will be 60 HRC to a maximum depth of 0.0002 ".

There may be additional information on this project forthcoming but this is what I know for now. These will be the first USGI M14 riifles with 16 " barrels to be fielded by the U. S. military. </div></div>

This 16" SEI M14 could be a response to the SR-25 EM Carbine... we shall see.
 
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

M110 Carbine/ SR-25 EMC

Two shooters, 4 x 5 rd group avergaes at 800m for each shooter...
AGR-inches
AGR-MOA

C. /M118 U.S. Army Ammunition
4.924"
0.538

C. /167gr Lapua Ammunition
5.112"
0.558

C. /170gr Lapua Ammunition
5.47"
0.597

C. /185gr Lapua Ammunition
4.520"
0.493





B. /M118 U.S. Army Ammunition
3.992"
0.436

B. /167gr Lapua Ammunition
4.843"
0.529

B. /170gr Lapua Ammunition
6.226"
0.68

B. /185gr Lapua Ammunition
4.056"
0.443


Just saying
wink.gif
 
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KevinB-KAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Just saying
wink.gif
</div></div>

LF carryover
wink.gif
 
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KevinB-KAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">M110 Carbine/ SR-25 EMC

Two shooters, 4 x 5 rd group avergaes at 800m for each shooter...
AGR-inches
AGR-MOA

C. /M118 U.S. Army Ammunition
4.924"
0.538

C. /167gr Lapua Ammunition
5.112"
0.558

C. /170gr Lapua Ammunition
5.47"
0.597

C. /185gr Lapua Ammunition
4.520"
0.493





B. /M118 U.S. Army Ammunition
3.992"
0.436

B. /167gr Lapua Ammunition
4.843"
0.529

B. /170gr Lapua Ammunition
6.226"
0.68

B. /185gr Lapua Ammunition
4.056"
0.443


Just saying
wink.gif
</div></div>

This kinda, sorta, out shoots the much loved M14/EBR but only by 1MOA, if you didn't cheat and shoot these groups at 800 yards.

Next time please only do this at 100 yards so everyone has a chance.
 
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

Has the SR-25 EMC been issued in Afghanistan?



"Rock Island Arsenal is very proud of this rifle. Number 5,000 has been placed on permanent display in the Rock Island Arsenal Museum. When's the last time a weapon manufactured on Rock Island Arsenal went straight into the museum? December 20, 1904 when the Rock Island, Model 1903 rifle, serial number 1 was placed on display. I've visited this museum before and intend to again this year on my way to the National Matches at Camp Perry, Ohio. I can certainly recommend that anyone interested in firearms drop by. There are some items on display that I've only seen pictures of before. I expect some of them are the only example in existence.

For those of you who've carried an M14 before, your rifle may still be being put to good use today and I can guarantee you that it's more accurate than ever."
 
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

I have an affinity for both platforms and own one of each but if we think we'll somehow solve or improve the Afghan problem by throwing a rifle at it wer're fooling ourselves. If we're going to take this approach, as a taxpayer I'd prefer the cheaper rifle.

Tha Afghan problem is one of <span style="font-style: italic">tactics</span> NOT rifles or weapons training. If our troops were allowed to do it right, the war could be won with Garands and M1 carbnines.
 
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KevinB-KAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">M110 Carbine/ SR-25 EMC

Two shooters, 4 x 5 rd group avergaes at 800m for each shooter...
AGR-inches
AGR-MOA

C. /M118 U.S. Army Ammunition
4.924"
0.538

C. /167gr Lapua Ammunition
5.112"
0.558

C. /170gr Lapua Ammunition
5.47"
0.597

C. /185gr Lapua Ammunition
4.520"
0.493





B. /M118 U.S. Army Ammunition
3.992"
0.436

B. /167gr Lapua Ammunition
4.843"
0.529

B. /170gr Lapua Ammunition
6.226"
0.68

B. /185gr Lapua Ammunition
4.056"
0.443


Just saying
wink.gif
</div></div>

This kinda, sorta, out shoots the much loved M14/EBR but only by 1MOA, if you didn't cheat and shoot these groups at 800 yards.

Next time please only do this at 100 yards so everyone has a chance. </div></div>

LL, you know they're cheating when they use my barrels..:)
 
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: __JR__</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

LL, you know they're cheating when they use my barrels..:) </div></div>

High quality barrels make a big difference in accuracy... BTW, the TACOM M14EBR-RI uses a chrome lined, standard weight USGI barrel.
Replace the CL USGI barrels with SEI's unlined medium weight Crazy Horse M14 barrels and they all become sub MOA performers.
 
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: H2O MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Has the SR-25 EMC been issued in Afghanistan?



"Rock Island Arsenal is very proud of this rifle. Number 5,000 has been placed on permanent display in the Rock Island Arsenal Museum. When's the last time a weapon manufactured on Rock Island Arsenal went straight into the museum? December 20, 1904 when the Rock Island, Model 1903 rifle, serial number 1 was placed on display. I've visited this museum before and intend to again this year on my way to the National Matches at Camp Perry, Ohio. I can certainly recommend that anyone interested in firearms drop by. There are some items on display that I've only seen pictures of before. I expect some of them are the only example in existence.

For those of you who've carried an M14 before, your rifle may still be being put to good use today and I can guarantee you that it's more accurate than ever."</div></div>

This is still funny... we work with tons of SOCOM groups, Army, Navy, Air Force, you name it, and i have seen well over 500 KAC rifles and in all the time since I have been doing this I have only seen 1 M14. A Ssgt from the 101st had it, every one else uses the Mk11 or M110... they may have made 5000 of them, but they must be hiding them or giving them to guys who are forgetting to bring them, because all the guys we see use Knights' products. Seal, SF, AFSOC, Rangers, all employing KAC. Heck even the National Guard guys we have worked with have KAC stuff.

Don't forget the government agencies, one in particular used to have M14s, now they use Mk11s... so all those M14s hit the retirement home.
smile.gif


JR, it has to be the barrel... now just tell your employer to fix the suppressor he is hanging off your barrel and the world will be a happy place.
 
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

we work with tons of SOCOM groups, Army, Navy, Air Force, you name it, and i have seen well over 500 KAC rifles and in all the time since I have been doing this I have only seen 1 M14. </div></div>

wink.gif
It sounds like you need to get out more... TACOM has delivered over 5000 M14EBR-RI rifles to AFG.
 
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: H2O MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

we work with tons of SOCOM groups, Army, Navy, Air Force, you name it, and i have seen well over 500 KAC rifles and in all the time since I have been doing this I have only seen 1 M14. </div></div>

wink.gif
It sounds like you need to get out more... TACOM has delivered over 5000 M14EBR-RI rifles to AFG.</div></div>

I guarantee i see more than you and I am telling you, they are not being used by any of the people we deal with... they maybe delivered that doesn't make them employed by anyone in the fight.

Just because a supply guy has one, doesn't make it a fighter
 
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: H2O MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Has the SR-25 EMC been issued in Afghanistan?



"Rock Island Arsenal is very proud of this rifle. Number 5,000 has been placed on permanent display in the Rock Island Arsenal Museum. When's the last time a weapon manufactured on Rock Island Arsenal went straight into the museum? December 20, 1904 when the Rock Island, Model 1903 rifle, serial number 1 was placed on display. I've visited this museum before and intend to again this year on my way to the National Matches at Camp Perry, Ohio. I can certainly recommend that anyone interested in firearms drop by. There are some items on display that I've only seen pictures of before. I expect some of them are the only example in existence.

For those of you who've carried an M14 before, your rifle may still be being put to good use today and I can guarantee you that it's more accurate than ever."</div></div>

This is still funny... we work with tons of SOCOM groups, Army, Navy, Air Force, you name it, and i have seen well over 500 KAC rifles and in all the time since I have been doing this I have only seen 1 M14. A Ssgt from the 101st had it, every one else uses the Mk11 or M110... they may have made 5000 of them, but they must be hiding them or giving them to guys who are forgetting to bring them, because all the guys we see use Knights' products. Seal, SF, AFSOC, Rangers, all employing KAC. Heck even the National Guard guys we have worked with have KAC stuff.

Don't forget the government agencies, one in particular used to have M14s, now they use Mk11s... so all those M14s hit the retirement home.
smile.gif


JR, it has to be the barrel... now just tell your employer to fix the suppressor he is hanging off your barrel and the world will be a happy place. </div></div>

Barrel is the soul of the rifle. Even with the floppy I know results will improve, that's what I do.
 
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: H2O MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

we work with tons of SOCOM groups, Army, Navy, Air Force, you name it, and i have seen well over 500 KAC rifles and in all the time since I have been doing this I have only seen 1 M14. </div></div>

wink.gif
It sounds like you need to get out more... TACOM has delivered over 5000 M14EBR-RI rifles to AFG.</div></div>

I guarantee i see more than you and I am telling you...</div></div>

All seeing and all knowing... good for you.
 
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just because a supply guy has one, doesn't make it a fighter</div></div>I don't see them on the civilian side, either. We have bunch of M14's at the department. The military gave them away to us. We keep them in the armory and issue the M700's and AR's.

They are sure nice to look at, though: there's a lot of history there.
wink.gif
 
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: H2O MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: H2O MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

we work with tons of SOCOM groups, Army, Navy, Air Force, you name it, and i have seen well over 500 KAC rifles and in all the time since I have been doing this I have only seen 1 M14. </div></div>

wink.gif
It sounds like you need to get out more... TACOM has delivered over 5000 M14EBR-RI rifles to AFG.</div></div>

I guarantee i see more than you and I am telling you...</div></div>

All seeing and all knowing... good for you.</div></div>

Sorry you don't like it... but I do this for a living and the facts are we don't see it.

A site security guy could have one, and get a nice photo when the gates are attacked, that doesn't mean the guys going out day in and out are using them, that just means a soldier low on the totem pole has it, and may fire it a few times only.

Army has a lot more people supporting the mission then actually doing the fighting, and those guys supporting the fighters get equipment too. Doesn't mean anything, their job is very important. However, when it comes time to kick a door, or support the doorkicker with over watch cover, I can tell you 99% of th time it's not a M14 doing the job.
 
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

The M14 is a fine rifle, but because there is superior equipment available it's just not a Tier 1 thing anymore.

We saw the same progression in NRA competition in the early to mid 90's: M14s were competitive, but a properly set-up AR in .223 would spank it every time.

I shot an M14 in the mid 80's, and I liked it. But it took a lot of work to make shoot well and it required a lot of maintenance to keep it shooting well. Would I go to war with one if I had to? Hell yeah, because I know how to shoot one and how to take care of one. That, and I would rather have a .308 than a .223.

But, given a choice between that and an AR platform the M14 would not be my preference.
 
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Sorry you don't like it... </div></div>

It doesn't bother me in the least
smile.gif
 
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

No expert on what is being deployed but what do you think the chance that some of the various rifles are being deployed because KAC is working full speed and the need is for even more rifles? Bases on number of slings KAC orders I will say they certainly have not slowed down.

In past wars lots of different systems where used because need was great, but no way I see a M14 equal to a M110.
 
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: H2O MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Sorry you don't like it... </div></div>

It doesn't bother me in the least
smile.gif
</div></div>

Clearly you are both financially & emotionally invested, where I'm not and simply stating my observations.

By your backhanded comment:

<span style="font-style: italic">All seeing and all knowing... good for you.</span>

You are bothered.
 
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The M14 is a fine rifle, but because there is superior equipment available it's just not a Tier 1 thing anymore.

We saw the same progression in NRA competition in the early to mid 90's... I shot an M14 in the mid 80's... </div></div>

That seems to be a recurring problem here... comparing the old school M14 with the new, modernized M14.


As the man said:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
For those of you who've carried an M14 before, your rifle may still be being put
to good use today and I can guarantee you that it's more accurate than ever.</div></div>
 
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

Apparently H2O man has a fixation with the M14, he seems to post endlessly about this particular rifle not only here but also on other forums, with pretty much the same results.
 
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Clearly you are both financially & emotionally invested...</div></div>

I guarantee I am neither financially or emotionally invested... for some unknown reason that fact bothers you.
 
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: H2O MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Clearly you are both financially & emotionally invested...</div></div>

I guarantee I am neither financially or emotionally invested... for some unknown reason that fact bothers you. </div></div>

Have you bought any of these ? If you have paid for a single one, you are financially invested, and because you have tied all of your decisions that this is a superior system, based on your decision to support this system, you are emotionally invested, as evidence by your posts here and at other sites.

This isn't my first day on the internet, and it's not rocket science to see the pattern.
 
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: H2O MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The M14 is a fine rifle, but because there is superior equipment available it's just not a Tier 1 thing anymore. We saw the same progression in NRA competition in the early to mid 90's... I shot an M14 in the mid 80's...</div></div>That seems to be a recurring problem here... comparing the old school M14 with the new, modernized M14.</div></div>It's the same platform. Besides, my 'old school' M14 was customized to a higher level than the specs on the one you are advocating.
 
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: H2O MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The M14 is a fine rifle, but because there is superior equipment available it's just not a Tier 1 thing anymore. We saw the same progression in NRA competition in the early to mid 90's... I shot an M14 in the mid 80's...</div></div>That seems to be a recurring problem here... comparing the old school M14 with the new, modernized M14.</div></div>It's the same platform. Besides, my 'old school' M14 was customized to a higher level than the specs on the one you are advocating. </div></div>

I'm not 'advocating' anything, I'm attempting to point out the differences to folks that don't know any better.

Customized to a higher level? Maybe, but the modernized M14s are meant to be durable and reliable in battlefield conditions.
The old school bedded NM M14s required constant tweaking and upkeep.
 
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: H2O MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Clearly you are both financially & emotionally invested...</div></div>

I guarantee I am neither financially or emotionally invested... for some unknown reason that fact bothers you. </div></div>

that bothers me wierdo. Frank, douche this guy.
 
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan




It's not rocket science to see the pattern where individuals that are financially & emotionally invested in KAC pounce
on everything I and others post about the modernized M14. These individuals never pass up an opportunity to attack.
 
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

I don't own an KAC anything... unlike you who can't post anywhere else, or about anything else but the M14.

I get it, we're all wrong and you're right and are simply here to educate us correcting the errors of our ways.

Maybe they should hire you, because you're fanatical about your love for this, and everyone see it but you.
 
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