Match dies verses standard dies?

SmokeRolls

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Minuteman
Aug 25, 2008
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Kentucky
Has anybody found any noticable difference between Match loading dies verses standard loading dies in say RCBS or other?
I have standard RCBS dies but wanting to improve accuracy or atleast refine my average grouping.
Just trying to eliminate any weak links.
..Opinions...?
......SmokeRolls
 
Re: Match dies verses standard dies?

There are little tricks that you can do with standard seating dies ($20) that will help you turn out "match" quality ammo on standard dies. Yes, I have done them all. I now do the Redding Comp seater thing. It's a lot faster and not near as nerve wrecking. The ammo is as good as anything you can do with all the tricks by hand. I still prep and seperate my cases. For ranges over 400 yards I weight the charges. I cast low and trickle up. But if you read everything and practice everything in the books, you can make match ammo on $20 dies, if you know what to do. But it's a lot of work.
 
Re: Match dies verses standard dies?

I have called RCBS about this very thing. I have one of their comp. F/L sizer dies. The lady could only tell me that they were made to a tighter tolerance. She couldn't tell me where the tolerances were allegedly tighter or by how much vs. the standard dies. My guess is that the neck is slightly tighter than the $20 die. I'm probably wrong though. Rather frustrating, I told myself wouldn't buy another. From now on it's only Redding and Hornady gear.
 
Re: Match dies verses standard dies?

Opinion only, as long as you are getting good concentricity with your sizing die you are likely not going to see much difference. However I am a believer in the redding competition seater for better consistency in seating depth than most standard seating dies. Even then you are not likely to see any great strides in improvement at closer distances but down range it will show itself.
 
Re: Match dies verses standard dies?

Niles and Victor are right.

You can still load great ammo with standard dies, hell you could probably even use that ammo to compete.

The thing with match/comp dies is that we expect a higher quality of machining and manufacturing because we are paying more.

IF you have a set of standard dies made by whatever company, provided that die is perfect, theres no reason why the ammo you make with them wont be perfect.

If however that cheaper die is not true and concentric in some way and you sizing on it, your brass will also come out in the same manner. This probably wont show at short range, but in a 1000 yard comp it will.

Comp seating dies are made with moving parts and micrometers so its only natural that they cost more.

Same goes for bushing dies, they are far more complex and so their price goes up.
 
Re: Match dies verses standard dies?

I think if you are competitive shooter you spend the money because you cant afford to leave anything to chance. Thats why those guys go to such extremes in weighing and sorting components. When the difference in winning is shooting high .2's over low .3's you dont want to loose and wonder if the reason was that cheap set of dies. That said, I load ammo that shoots better than I can with standard RCBS dies. Spending the time and effort and dollars to try and coax a .5 load down to .3 load is crazy if you cant dope the wind or hold a quarter minute. Hell the typical mill dot reticle probably subtends over a half minute and probably more if its ffp at high power- tough to shoot tiny groups if you cant see around the cross hair which is why the bench boys use fine cross hairs or .25 min dots. something to think about.
 
Re: Match dies verses standard dies?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Low Sioux</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hell the typical mill dot reticle probably subtends over a half minute
</div></div>

Std Mil-dot reticle 'wire' is 0.05 mils wide or 0.18 MoA. not quite 1/2 a MoA, closer to 1/3rd MoA
 
Re: Match dies verses standard dies?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TheSmokeRolls</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Has anybody found any noticable difference between Match loading dies verses standard loading dies in say RCBS or other?
I have standard RCBS dies but wanting to improve accuracy or atleast refine my average grouping.
Just trying to eliminate any weak links.
..Opinions...?
......SmokeRolls</div></div>

Well you can make quality ammo with cheap dies but it is much easier for variables to pop up and deliver trash. Worst thing is you may not be aware of it. Quality dies used properly give repeatable results.

You get what you pay for.
 
Re: Match dies verses standard dies?

I just started using the redding bushing dies and the biggest differnce I have found is the ability to adjust all facets of the die . you can custom set neck tension, youcan set when the primer falls out, it is easier to tweak oal of the rounds, It seems like there are alot more tweeks I can do with the competion dies. Like others stated you can load some damn good ammo on standard dies, but the bushing comp dies make it a little easier to dial in exactly what you want. I am hooked on the Redding bushing dies(just make sure you read the directions to get all the benefits of the comp bushing dies!)
 
Re: Match dies verses standard dies?

Common dies are much better than is commonly believed. You can easily pay for much more than you get, especially so for so called "premium" dies other than Redding/Forster. And even then it's a special rifle and shooter that will be able to see any real difference in the ammo.

Get yourself a concentricity gage first so you can actually see if you have a runout problem or not. And, if so, where it's coming from. No seater can make straight ammo if the sized necks are't straight!

The nice phone lady claiming "tigher tolerances" for her company's dies had to be repeating what she was told but it's meaningless. SAAMI tolerances are a range, minimum and maximum, for each dimension. Anything inside those tolerances are fully within tolerance, period.

No one could tell you if the various dimensions would load better for your rifle if they were held closer to the min or max. Nor would it be reliavant anyway, our chambers are reamed to the same kind of tolerances. If we get a perfect match it's pure luck, not the brand or price of the dies! What makes some dies - Forster/Redding - work a little better, on average, than the others is the design, not the tolerances.

Micro-adjustable seating heads are modest user convienences but they don't automatically do a thing for making better ammo.

I can't figger how any seating die could produce a less consistant OAL than others, it's all done metal to metal. OAL inconsistancy is much more likely due to inconsistant press operation than a die.
 
Re: Match dies verses standard dies?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I can't figger how any seating die could produce a less consistant OAL than others, it's all done metal to metal. OAL inconsistancy is much more likely due to inconsistant press operation than a die.</div></div>

It's not about consistent OAL, it is about concentricity. The Redding and Forster designs float, which allow the bullet to be seated as squarely as possible into the case. Other designs might create the same OAL, but if the bullet goes cockeyed during the seating process, it continues to jam it down until it achieves the correct OAL. A bullet that is allowed to float while being seated will try to right itself and enter the mouth as squarely as possible (if that makes sense).

German Salazar had a great article on this here.

A quick plug:

German should really write a book on reloading. I can't believe he gives away all of the info that he does for free on his blog. All reloaders should read his blog religiously. Even if you disagree with his thoughts on the subject, he at least makes you think.
 
Re: Match dies verses standard dies?

The sizing die is noticably smoother and requires less effort with my RCBS Competion die when compared to the RCBS standard die. I think its partially becuase the expander ball comes in a higher position and is polished. I don't use the micrometer so much on the seating die, but do like the bushing that aligns the bullet as its seated in the cartridge as well as the side feed feature. I can't say if it actually produces more accurate ammo. I did just fine with the old dies.
 
Re: Match dies verses standard dies?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And even then it's a special rifle and shooter that will be able to see any real difference in the ammo.

Get yourself a concentricity gage first so you can actually see if you have a runout problem or not.
</div></div>

+1 on the concentricity gauge. IMHO it is an essential bit of kit

-1 on special shooters and rifles to see the difference in ammo. Cheap seating dies can produce crap and it isn't hard to see it. 0.5+ moa groups from my 270 with low runout (comp seated) and 1.25 moa with bullets seated by a wobble die. Easy to see, but the lack of a concentricity gauge meant it took years to understand why