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Mechanics of shooting bolt vs. semi

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garandman

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Elsewhere some keep asserting that the ability to produce good groups with bolt guns does not mean you can produce good groups with a semi..... they claim the shooters mechanics of shooting the two are very different.

Tho I've repeatedly asked... none can seems to give specific detail to what the differnce is.


I'd like for anyone who thinks they are different to explain how....


Thank you.
 
Elsewhere some keep asserting that the ability to produce good groups with bolt guns does not mean you can produce good groups with a semi..... they claim the shooters mechanics of shooting the two are very different.

Tho I've repeatedly asked... none can seems to give specific detail to what the differnce is.

I'd like for anyone who thinks they are different to explain how....

Thank you.
The recoil cycle is different. In a bolt gun, it's simply the mass of the rifle moving back into your shoulder. That's the case with a semi-auto as well; but, it's complicated by the parts moving inside the gun. After firing, the bolt carrier moves rearward, and that pushes the buffer mass rearwards as well. It feels different.

When I first shot an AR-15 I was surprised at the amount of recoil and how "bouncy" the gun was in recoil. Most off the shelf ARs are overgassed to make sure they function reliably with most any ammo. In comparison, my .223 bolt gun has hardly any recoil at all. There are measures you can take to attenuate an AR's recoil:
  1. Felt recoil will seem less with a rifle or mid-length gas system than with a carbine length gas system
  2. With an adjustable gas block, you can customize the amount of gas bled off to cycle the action and customize it so you're only using enough gas to reliably cycle the rifle with the load you're shooting
  3. You can play with buffer weights and spring
The above items are inter-related. Changing one may require that you change something else too.

I'm no AR armorer. I may have gotten some of the details wrong. If that's the case, I'm sure there's no shortage of experts to correct me.
 
Elsewhere some keep asserting that the ability to produce good groups with bolt guns does not mean you can produce good groups with a semi..... they claim the shooters mechanics of shooting the two are very different.

Tho I've repeatedly asked... none can seems to give specific detail to what the differnce is.


I'd like for anyone who thinks they are different to explain how....


Thank you.

The recoil is different.
 
This should be good...

ugmt8.jpg
 
You asked and we all said essentially the same thing, then you argued that what we all said was incorrect because it didn’t align with your thought process.

Despite my better judgement, I spent some time searching and I found a separate video that wasn’t posted in the previous thread before it was nuked.

Go to 1:55 in the video...
 
I personally don’t believe the mechanics of shooting them are any different. Bad fundamentals will produce bad results. The same can be said about good fundamentals.


I agree 100%. But I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, IF anyone will use logic and fact to support their case.
 
You asked and we all said essentially the same thing, then you argued that what we all said was incorrect because it didn’t align with your thought process.

Despite my better judgement, I spent some time searching and I found a separate video that wasn’t posted in the previous thread before it was nuked.

Go to 1:55 in the video...



That explains why a gas gun will **ALWAYS** be **INHERENTLY** less accurate than a bolt gun. EVERYONE already knows that. And I've never said otherwise. I agree with that video 1000% . You haven't made your case at all, via that video.

Set up BEFORE the firing pin ignites the primer is exactly the same, gas or bolt.

And there is NOTHING a shooter can do during the 1/100th of a second between firing pin igniting primer and the bullet leaving the barrel that will improve accuracy.

NOTHING a shooter does in "follow thru" after the bullet leaves the barrel can improve accuracy.

There is no difference in gas vs. bolt shooter mechanics that will affect accuracy. A Gas gun will just always be LESS INHERENTLY accurate than a bolt fun, as NOTHING is happenning in a bolt gun in the 1/100th of a second between primer strike and the bullet leaving the barrel in a bolt gun, and there is in a gas gun.

So I maintain my claim. If a guy can run a bolt gun and maximize its inherent accuracy capability, then he can run a gas gun and maximize its (lesser) inherent accuracy capability.
 
The recoil cycle is different. In a bolt gun, it's simply the mass of the rifle moving back into your shoulder. That's the case with a semi-auto as well; but, it's complicated by the parts moving inside the gun. After firing, the bolt carrier moves rearward, and that pushes the buffer mass rearwards as well. It feels different.

When I first shot an AR-15 I was surprised at the amount of recoil and how "bouncy" the gun was in recoil. Most off the shelf ARs are overgassed to make sure they function reliably with most any ammo. In comparison, my .223 bolt gun has hardly any recoil at all. There are measures you can take to attenuate an AR's recoil:
  1. Felt recoil will seem less with a rifle or mid-length gas system than with a carbine length gas system
  2. With an adjustable gas block, you can customize the amount of gas bled off to cycle the action and customize it so you're only using enough gas to reliably cycle the rifle with the load you're shooting
  3. You can play with buffer weights and spring
The above items are inter-related. Changing one may require that you change something else too.

I'm no AR armorer. I may have gotten some of the details wrong. If that's the case, I'm sure there's no shortage of experts to correct me.


I agree 100%. A gas gun - BCUZ of the moving parts - will always be less inherently accurate than a bolt gun. One can mitigate that a bit with bolt / buffer / gas system tweaks. But there's NOTHING a shooter mechanically can do to remove the inherent inaccuracy (comparatively) of a gas gun vs. a bolt.

My question relates to something different that inherent acuracy of bolt vs. gas - what a shooter does before, during and after the shot. I maintain those are all the same, gas gun or bolt. I address that here, in my reply above to Triple D.

But if a guy can maximize the accuracy potential of a bolt, he can also (most probably) do that with a gas gun. (THis realtes to another post where I'm having problems repeating good groups with my gas gun (despite over 50 handload combinations) , and ppl insisting its operator error. I tell them I can run a bolt gun quite accurately -repeatable 0.36 MoA. So I maintain its something about the gun / barrel that's wrong and NOT my mechanics. THey proceed to curse and swear at me, calling me "fucktard" and my posts "retarded" and "the stupidest thing they ever heard" and that I "stepped on ym dick." Exact quotes. )
 
The recoil is different.


Yes, it is. In the sense that a gas gun has the bolt moving rearward while the bullet is still in the barrel, and a bolt gun doesn't. So a gas gun will just always be a tiny bit less inherently accurate than a gas gun.

No matter who is shooting it. There is nothing in the shooters mechanics that can change that reality.
 
I agree 100%. But I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, IF anyone will use logic and fact to support their case.


What answer do you want that will satisfy you?

Some people shoot gas guns really well, no difference between bolt or semi.

Look through the Elfster "1/2 MOA all day long" threads though and you will see peoples claims that there semi shoots 1/2 MOA all day every day are tough to prove on paper.

A gun is a gun and as you are correct there is only a fraction of a second where shooter, gun and moving bullet are at one with each other why do any fundamentals matter?

In that focused world than the only thing that should matter is placement of the cross hairs at time the firing chain is initiated.

Really in 1/1000 of a second how can lock time matter? Why would a shitty body position matter? Follow through, keeping the trigger pinned back? Why would it matter? Recoil management? Why the bullet is already gone, nothing you can do?

If all that mattered was that 1/1000 of a second why would caliber make a difference?

Firing a .22 or a .50 cal if your only concern is the 1/1000 of a second time frame than position, recoil management and follow through could all be the same with the same result as long as your crosshair remains on target for 1/1000 of a second.

The main reason semis shoot less accurately than bolt guns IS the person pulling the trigger.

The main reason a very good bolt shooter will not typically shoot as well with a semi is that all that stuff around the 1/1000 of a second matters and that weight/parts/material moving around in the semi needs to be accounted for prior, during and after the 1/1000 of a second time of travel when shooter, rifle and moving bullet are one unit.
 
You asked and we all said essentially the same thing, then you argued that what we all said was incorrect because it didn’t align with your thought process.


You reply shows y'all didn't read for comprehension and to understand my point. Your read to argue, and then went on to insult.

You've had your say over and over and over. Hush, and let others talk so I can hear them and their thoughts. Or I'll help you do that.
 
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The trigger system is different on a bolt vs semi. On a semi you have a swinging hammer that takes more time to drop than the trigger releasing a firing pin on a bolt gun. This gives the shooter more time to fuck up by moving before the bullet leaves the barrel.
 
Anyway....I gotta get the actual range and run ladder tests on THIS gas gun to try to maximize its inherent accuracy potential. CUz that's how I form my opinions... from range time, not from computer time.

Remember why they call it "Memorial Day" - to remember those who died so we can be free.



7084713
 
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Anyway....I gotta get the actual range and run ladder tests on THIS gas gun to try to maximize its inherent accuracy potential. CUz that's how I form my opinions... from range time, not from computer time.

Remember why they call it "Memorial Day" - to remember those who died so we can be free.



View attachment 7084713


As others mentioned best to ride your scope all on the receiver rather than receiver and handguard.

A solid base will take out any possibility that while flexing your handguard you are doing something funky to your scope alignment.

Is that a MARS rail of sorts on there?
 
I know for me personally I shoot bolt guns better for a couple reasons,

1) My gas guns have triggers that are sub par compared to my bolt guns

2) My bolt guns are heavier on the front end than my gas guns. Thus the gas gun has more movement before/during/after the shot

Other than that my fundamentals don’t change.

I’m with the guy above, Mount scope to reciever only
 
Guys, don’t waste your time on this guy. He is the classic definition of an askhole. He deleted his last thread, after putting most everybody that didn’t agree with him on ignore, just because he made a stupid statement and then kept doubling down on it. The truth is that he only wants to hear from people that completely agree with his statements and will put anyone else on ignore.

I tried to talk reason with him, but was placed on ignore also. He deleted his initial statement after being called out on it and tried to paint everyone he didn’t agree with as being vulgar and crass, when that was not the case at all.

I posted @Lowlight ’s video discussing the differences between shooting a bolt and a semi in that thread, but since dimwit put me on ignore he never saw it. It wouldn't make any difference anyway, because he only wants to show everybody how right he is and how wrong anybody who disagrees with him are.

Somebody do a solid and post Franks video again so he can see it. I would, but he won’t see it if I do it.

Good luck having a “discussion” with this idiot.
 
I do believe a semi automatic with it’s additional forces can exacerbate any weaknesses in your shooting position.

Same situation as with big magnums.
 
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As others mentioned best to ride your scope all on the receiver rather than receiver and handguard.

A solid base will take out any possibility that while flexing your handguard you are doing something funky to your scope alignment.

Is that a MARS rail of sorts on there?


Its a PRI rail. Its standarfd kit for a SPR / DMR.

If you look closely, you see the PRI rail *is* bolted to the upper receiver ONLY, and its "floated" unattached to the handguard. The scope is attached to the rail.

This is my second SPR / DMR build . I did both the same way, with (now - I'll psot pics of todays range session later. basicaly thre differnt loads in the 0.400 - 0.600 range ) good results.

You logic / theory is sound here. I'd agree....usually. But range results (now) show theory doesn't always translate to reality.
 
Yes, it is. In the sense that a gas gun has the bolt moving rearward while the bullet is still in the barrel, and a bolt gun doesn't. So a gas gun will just always be a tiny bit less inherently accurate than a gas gun.

No matter who is shooting it. There is nothing in the shooters mechanics that can change that reality.

You asked, you got a unanimous answer, and seem to understand. Call WOA tomorrow and begin the return process on your barrel. I suspect John is going to shoot your barrel, send it back, and tell you to work on your fundamentals.
 
RANGE UPDATE:

My 3 ladder tests revealed three separate loads in the 0.400 - 0.600" range, as follows:

77 SMK / 22.6gr XBR.... 5 shot: 0.454"

73 ELD-M / 23.0 XBR....5 shot: 0.546"

73 ELD-m / 23.4 Varget... 5 shot: 0.600"

In this case, I'll attribute it to hand loader error (i.e. me :) ) - not doing expansive enuf ladder tests, and not using 73 - 77 gr boolits, opting for too light, 68-70 gr.


But I gotta go 5 x 5 test all this, to find repeatable groups and eliminate lucky groups.
 
You asked, you got a unanimous answer, and seem to understand. Call WOA tomorrow and begin the return process on your barrel. I suspect John is going to shoot your barrel, send it back, and tell you to work on your fundamentals.


See my update, above.
 
@garandman

I noticed you have been on this forum since 2009 and have posted over 1500 messages. I'm a bit surprised that after ten years you have not already come to understand the similarities (of which there are so many) and differences (of which there are much fewer).


I think you musunderstand. I "liked" (agred with) your post above.

I've always maintained the immense similarities btwn shooting bolt and semi. OTHER PEROPLE SAY (very loudly and insultingly with lots of profanity) they are different.

Those ppl are wrong.

And rude. And denigrate themselves.
 
.

But as for "shooter's mechanics" which is what YOU began this thread with..no. Fundamentals are fundamentals. Master them and then practice continually. There you go.


Yup. 100%.

Yes...OF COURSE I beleive what my range experience has taught me. And not what ppl say on the internet. But hey... I'm an open mided fella. If you can can make a logical, sound case backed with fact, I can learn . :)
 
So..go talk to these "they" you keep referring to and YOU explain to them why they are wrong. You've got every answer you need and the fact that after ten years on this forum you even felt a need to start this stupid thread tells me all I need to know about you.

Poof..you are gone.
So..go talk to these "they" you keep referring to and YOU explain to them why they are wrong. You've got every answer you need and the fact that after ten years on this forum you even felt a need to start this stupid thread tells me all I need to know about you.

Poof..you are gone.


Well....lemme just say ... THANK YOU FOR THAT !!!!!! :)

(Can't recall ever having somebody so pist off at me for repeately agreeeing with him. :) Takes all kinds to make a lousy world, I guess..... )
 
I am pretty sure that it’s the large ar’s People are talking about. It looks like your talking about a AR-15 size rifle. Its the larger AR’s that are much more difficult to shoot. If it’s really important to you you can find the reasons.
I had a huge problem shooting small groups that I do with my bolt action and AR-15 size rifles to my AR 6.5 creedmoor. I asked the same questions (to myself) and looked for the answer. The answer(s) are around and whether you believe everyone or not doesn’t matter.
But from my experience and many others it much more difficult to shoot the larger frame AR’s.
 
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Guys, don’t waste your time on this guy. He is the classic definition of an askhole. He deleted his last thread, after putting most everybody that didn’t agree with him on ignore, just because he made a stupid statement and then kept doubling down on it. The truth is that he only wants to hear from people that completely agree with his statements and will put anyone else on ignore.

I tried to talk reason with him, but was placed on ignore also. He deleted his initial statement after being called out on it and tried to paint everyone he didn’t agree with as being vulgar and crass, when that was not the case at all.

I posted @Lowlight ’s video discussing the differences between shooting a bolt and a semi in that thread, but since dimwit put me on ignore he never saw it. It wouldn't make any difference anyway, because he only wants to show everybody how right he is and how wrong anybody who disagrees with him are.

Somebody do a solid and post Franks video again so he can see it. I would, but he won’t see it if I do it.

Good luck having a “discussion” with this idiot.

Just saw this after I posted. Some people just don’t listen.
 
Other than exaggerated followthrough and trying to pull the heavier trigger straight back, I hold the semi auto's rear stock down into the rear bag firmly vs relaxed with the bolt rifle.

I think a major part of inconsistency with semi's is a generic rear stock that doesn't fit the user, getting an adjustable rear stock with LOP and cheek height that is set up for the individual really helps.
 
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That explains why a gas gun will **ALWAYS** be **INHERENTLY** less accurate than a bolt gun. EVERYONE already knows that. And I've never said otherwise. I agree with that video 1000% . You haven't made your case at all, via that video.

Set up BEFORE the firing pin ignites the primer is exactly the same, gas or bolt.

And there is NOTHING a shooter can do during the 1/100th of a second between firing pin igniting primer and the bullet leaving the barrel that will improve accuracy.

NOTHING a shooter does in "follow thru" after the bullet leaves the barrel can improve accuracy.

There is no difference in gas vs. bolt shooter mechanics that will affect accuracy. A Gas gun will just always be LESS INHERENTLY accurate than a bolt fun, as NOTHING is happenning in a bolt gun in the 1/100th of a second between primer strike and the bullet leaving the barrel in a bolt gun, and there is in a gas gun.

So I maintain my claim. If a guy can run a bolt gun and maximize its inherent accuracy capability, then he can run a gas gun and maximize its (lesser) inherent accuracy capability.

You obviously didn’t watch that video. If so, you’d see that two VERY good shooters/instructors state that the mechanics of shooting a gas gun are different. They also state that a good bolt gun shooter can look silly on a gas gun, because of the differences (recoil management, follow through, lock time). You have to execute proper fundamentals or ANY errors will be exploited with a gas gun.

But, I guess you think they are wrong, right? Those former snipers/instructors don’t know shit, right?

You have the nerve to question my comprehension after you were asked about how well you shot other gas guns previously and you just went off on a tangent about their build materials.

“hush or you’ll do it for me”. Hilarious. The proverbial internet tough guy.

@Mmfujita -The difficulty to shoot well consistently is exaggerated on large frame AR’s, but it’s present on AR-15’s as well, especially if they are light. I’m speaking in regards to shooting .3/4moa or better consistently. Sub half is much harder.
 
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No matter who is shooting it. There is nothing in the shooters mechanics that can change that reality.

You can’t change the fact that there are moving parts, but you can change how they impact the system. I’ve shot several AR’s for ppl who were great bolt gun shooters who couldn’t get their AR’s to group. Typically they were getting 1.25-1.5moa on a good day. By changing shooters, the guns started producing 3/4moa groups. After they adjusted how they were holding the rifle and their technique, they too started getting the same groups.
 
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Its a PRI rail. Its standarfd kit for a SPR / DMR.

If you look closely, you see the PRI rail *is* bolted to the upper receiver ONLY, and its "floated" unattached to the handguard. The scope is attached to the rail.

This is my second SPR / DMR build . I did both the same way, with (now - I'll psot pics of todays range session later. basicaly thre differnt loads in the 0.400 - 0.600 range ) good results.

You logic / theory is sound here. I'd agree....usually. But range results (now) show theory doesn't always translate to reality.

All that matters is what happens on the target.

I know similar rail was used on Mk12 Mod 0.

Didnt see that set up until I expanded the pic.
 
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Bolt-action vs. Semi-auto
There is an ongoing debate as to whether someone should purchase a semi-automatic rifle or a bolt-action rifle for long-range precision shooting. There are a few key variances in both which make them very different, and probably contribute to the wide divergence in opinion. Typically, the bolt-action precision rifle is considered more accurate than a semi automatic. However, this depends on numerous factors with regard to both firearm and ammunition, and modern semi-automatic rifles can be exceptionally accurate when designed with long-ranging shooting in mind. Some of the factors that precision shooters take into consideration when accuracy is discussed between the two platforms are:
  • Recoil
  • Gas release
  • Moving components
Recoil
The bolt-action rifle, when fired, has only one stage of recoil, this being recoil to the rear—into the shooter’s shoulder pocket. The semi-auto precision rifle, when fired, has three stages of recoil: One being to the rear as the bullet exits the muzzle, another to the rear as the bolt slams into the buffer, and the final stage as the bolt slams forward, picking up an additional cartridge. Because the bolt-action rifle has only a single stage of recoil to the rear, some shooters find they can “drive the rifle” in a superior manner to semi-automatic rifles.
Gas release
When a cartridge is fired inside the chamber of a bolt-action rifle, the force from the burning charge and expanding gases propels the bullet down the barrel. However, some of the energy is transferred to the shooter through its normal recoil. In a semi-automatic rifle, some of the energy used to propel the bullet down the barrel is used to cycle the action.

Moving components
The moving components of the two rifle platforms must also be considered. Typically, precision-rifle shooters prefer the bolt rifle simply due to its lack of moving components, and by extension, simplicity and reliability. Taking a look at the bolt rifle, the only moving part is the bolt, which is manually operated by the shooter. Once the bolt is locked, the entire rifle is merely one solid component, thus making it easier to control through recoil and avoiding bullet-impact deviation downrange due to shooter-induced movement.
The semi-automatic precision rifle will always have a moving part in some section of the rifle, this usually being in the upper and lower receiver. If you’ve ever looked through the scope while in the prone position, you may have noticed that the slightest movement with your firing or support hand causes the upper receiver to shift slightly left or right, or in some cases, up or down. This slight shift/movement within the scope may be caused by a number of factors: shooter flinch, undue sympathetic squeeze as the rifle is firing, etc.
As the shooter begins to fire or begins to perceive recoil, the shooter may cause the upper and lower receiver to shift where the two components meet, thus causing a change in desired point of impact when the rifle is fired. To the untrained or novice shooter, this may seem like a “sloppy gun,” or a rifle that is unable to achieve 1MOA.
Malfunctions
Semi automatic
As with any semi-automatic rifle or handgun, we can find an array of weapon-induced or shooter-induced malfunctions. Some of the malfunctions I have commonly seen within the semi-automatic family of precision rifles include the following:
  • Stovepipe: A stovepipe occurs when the casing that has been ejected is caught in the ejection port by the slide. This could be due to unburned powder, obstructions of various sorts that are placed near the ejection port not allowing the complete ejection of the spent casing, and poor-quality ammo.
  • Failure to extract: This results when the cartridge case remains in the chamber of the rifle. While the bolt and bolt carrier could move rearward only a short distance, more commonly the bolt and bolt carrier recoil fully to the rear, leaving the cartridge case in the chamber. A live round is then forced into the base of the cartridge case as the bolt returns in the next feed cycle. This malfunction is also one of the hardest to clear. A failure to extract could be caused by short-recoil cycles brought on by a fouled or corroded rifle chamber. A damaged extractor or a weak or broken extractor spring can also cause this malfunction.
  • Failure to eject: Here, a malfunction occurs when the cartridge is not ejected through the ejection port and either remains partly in the chamber or becomes jammed in the upper receiver as the bolt closes. This could be a result of carbon or fouling on the ejector spring or extractor, or from short recoil. Short recoil is usually due to a buildup of fouling in the carrier mechanism or gas tube. Resistance caused by a carbon-coated or corroded chamber can impede the extraction, and the subsequent ejection, of a cartridge.
  • Double feed: This malfunction occurs when a round is in the chamber and a second round attempts to feed into the chamber. This results in a true jam. On most semi-automatic weapons, the slide has a limited motion and the magazine will not eject by pressing the magazine release.
  • Failure to feed, chamber, or lock: A malfunction can occur when loading the rifle or during the cycle of operation. Once the magazine has been loaded into the rifle, the forward movement of the bolt carrier group could lack enough force (generated by the expansion of the action spring) to feed, chamber, or lock the bolt. Some of the causes could be the result of the following:

  1. Excess accumulation of dirt or fouling in and around the bolt and bolt carrier.

  1. Defective magazine (dented, bulged, or a weak magazine spring).

  1. Improperly loaded magazine.

  1. Defective round (projectile forced back into the cartridge case, which could result in a stubbed round or the base of the previous cartridge could be separated, leaving the remainder in the chamber).

  1. Damaged or broken action spring.

  1. Exterior accumulation of dirt in the lower-receiver extension.

  1. Fouled gas tube resulting in short recoil.

  1. A magazine resting on the ground or pushed forward could cause an improper lock.

  • Failure to fire: This malfunction occurs when a cartridge fails to fire despite being chambered, the trigger pulled, and the sear releasing the hammer. This occurs when the firing pin fails to strike the primer with enough force, or when the ammunition is defective. Probable causes of this malfunction include excessive carbon buildup on the firing pin, thus restricting the full forward travel of the pin, or a defective or worn firing pin. Proper inspection of the ammunition could reveal a shallow indentation or no mark on the primer, indicating a firing-pin malfunction. Cartridges that show an indentation on the primer but did not fire may indicate faulty ammunition.
Bolt action
One major benefit of having a bolt-action rifle is the lack of malfunctions they produce. Here are a some of the most common bolt-action malfunctions that I have seen over time, both shooter induced and weapon induced.
  • Falling firing pin: A falling firing pin occurs when the shooter closes the bolt too fast or too hard. The firing pin will not stay in the rear position, but will instead “fall forward” and move into the fired position. When this occurs, the shooter is not able to fire the rifle. The most common causes are a lack of maintenance on the bolt, dirt or buildup on the bolt face, etc.
  • Failure to fire: Failure to fire in a bolt gun occurs in the same manner as in the semi-automatic.
  • Failure to feed: A failure to feed occurs in the same manner as the semi-automatic. The problem usually occurs when the shooter bolt overrides the cartridge in the internal or external magazine.
Performance in the field
Although one rifle platform may surpass the other in certain applications or instances, we must also understand that a given platform is only a tool for a certain task, and may not be applicable in every situation. Let’s take a look at each platform’s advantages and disadvantages by discussing different situations/environments.
Multiple engagements
Precision shooters may find themselves in a multiple-target engagement situation not only in combat (defensive or offensive), but in a timed competitive event as well. As we all know, holdovers and holdunders will greatly increase our speed at getting rounds on target, but when time matters the most, the semi-automatic rifle will by far surpass the bolt rifle. The amount of time it takes to run the bolt, acquire the target, and get a proper trigger squeeze on target is greater than that of the semi, as the shooter only has to transition through targets and apply a proper trigger squeeze while utilizing the trigger reset.
Use in urban and woodland environments
In regards to the use of a precision rifle in an urban environment, speed, accuracy, and possible presentation of multiple targets plays a big role in the choosing the superior platform. While the bolt rifle may have the greater advantage in accuracy, which is commonly needed when engaging partially obscured targets at various ranges, it may lack the speed needed to engage multiple targets.
The semi-automatic rifle, while being superior in speed and engaging multiple targets, may lack the accuracy needed to engage small, partially obscured targets. This is usually due to the shooter not properly driving the rifle while in various alternate shooting positions, but it’s a consideration, notwithstanding.
Aerial platforms
As difficult in nature as aerial shooting can be, the amount of rounds used to engage a target while the shooter is airborne are typically more than three, due to the lack of a stable platform, the amount of time the shooter is actually on or able to engage the target, and proper lead needed to engage the target. This being the case, the semi-automatic rifle surpasses the bolt-action.
 
Despite the super long cut and paste which really does not tell you the story, only the underlying movements which the shooter has to account for, a semi auto can be extremely accurate if, one is assembled with quality parts and is well built and two if the shooter knows what they are doing.

Shooting a 223 semi auto is not the same as shooting a larger frame AR10, the differences in component weight and their movement will give a shooter with poor fundamentals varying results.

It's mostly about the lock time, and not just the firing pin lock time but the firing process lock time. the time it takes for the shooter to make the decision to fire up until the time the bullet leaves the barrel.

Every system takes time before the bullet leaves the bore, as fast as you think it is, it's still time. We deal in milliseconds and microns. The AR10 can take as much as 3x longer for the bullet to leave the bore so yes, it will total exploit your fundamentals while a 223 semi is about 2x longer than the bolt action.

The shooter is the defining element in all this, so your trigger control and follow through have to not only be perfect, you have to dwell during that follow through.

Shooters with heavy, accurate bolt action rifles with light triggers can get away with a ton. Which is why you see their poor trigger control and lack of follow through work. The bipod and rear bag support the system to minimize movement. But with a semi, the system moves all on its own. Trigger tappers are quite common with a bolt action, they disengage from the shot with very little to no consequences. In a semi if you disengage from the firing task before it is complete the results will show.

People like to say the semi is not moving until the bullet leaves, but that is not true, the gas is 5x faster than the bullet and the process of unlocking begins rather quickly even if we don't see it, the bolt still starts to move.

Look at the difference in a 20MOA base, front to rear, about .112" in difference gives you 20 inches at 100 yards. Divide that number to 1" at 100 yards and we have .0056" of movement can cause 1 inch of deviation at 100.

You have to be positive on the trigger, you have to be consistent in your application of not only the fundamentals, but your positive behind the rifle as that heavier bolt carrier has to move.

we taught a lot of .gov and .mil guys on the Mk11 and M110, it's not a case of shooting expert with a M4 and that will translate to either of these systems. You have to adjust the techniques for the larger frame, slower bullets and reduced MV which has a bearing on that Time.

The trigger is the START button, you are turning on the machine,
 
Here you go, OP, for I suspect your attention span is shorter than a three year old's.

for, a semi auto can be extremely accurate if, one is assembled with quality parts and is well built and two if the shooter knows what they are doing.
 
I think that we all should give credit where credit is due. The OP has shown absolute determination and fortitude to prove to all of Snipers Hide over these past two days, how much of a TWAT he really is. Hopefully the words of Low Light will echo through his little brain, bringing an end to this crusade to convince us all of his ignorance, not that it hasn't been entertaining. For all of you that missed his original thread it was a doozy, to this day I think the only person I've seen Shit the Bed so quickly in their own thread has been Primus.

Godspeed and good luck to you OP, can't wait to see your 5x5.....lol
 
You can’t change the fact that there are moving parts, but you can change how they impact the system. I’ve shot several AR’s for ppl who were great bolt gun shooters who couldn’t get their AR’s to group. Typically they were getting 1.25-1.5moa on a good day. By changing shooters, the guns started producing 3/4moa groups. After they adjusted how they were holding the rifle and their technique, they too started getting the same groups.


Lock time and the cycling of the bolt inherently limit the accuracy of a gas gun... lock time can allow the introduction of the shooters movement and cycling of the bolt actaully crates movement while the booilit is still in the barrel. .

My point is I was QUITE sure I was NOT the cause of the groups opening up from 0.500" to 1.500 and larger. And my range time today confirms that. Next I'm gonna go "super confrm" it with 5 x 5's.

:)
 
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I would still move the rings so there both on the reciever. I know the forend is bolted to it but bolts can stretch/loosen under recoil over time, if your loading the forend with a Bipod or barricade you always run the risk of twisting the forend etc. Two parts on a rifle will have different reactions to heat as well. One moves this way while the other goes that way etc

Do what you want but a scope mounted to the reciever only runs less of a risk of having issues down the road.
 
lock time can allow the introduction of the shooters movement and cycling of the bolt actaully crates movement while the booilit is still in the barrel. .

Congrats. You’ve finally accepted that you were wrong. That’s a big step for you.

Edit: be sure to post up the pics from today and the 5x5 target in the future.
 
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