• Watch Out for Scammers!

    We've now added a color code for all accounts. Orange accounts are new members, Blue are full members, and Green are Supporters. If you get a message about a sale from an orange account, make sure you pay attention before sending any money!

Rifle Scopes Mil or MOA ?

Re: Mil or MOA ?

Both systems work wonderfully, actually both are almost too fucking easy. Neither has a real advantage over the other- so long as adjustments match the reticle. Thats the key. FFP makes it all even easier.
 
Re: Mil or MOA ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chad3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Again, Mil/Mil is the SH&T. You spot your hit, adjust without thinking with either the reticle or the turrets and fire. If you don't have a Mil/Mil scope try one and come back and say what you think. Even better, just sight in a new rifle and scope with it. The steps:
Shoot, read, adjust, on target.
What is easier than that?
Chad </div></div>

I use mil/mil but am I incorrect in saying you could do the same with any matching system IPHY/IPHY, MOA/MOA, or mil/mil If a mil is a mil is a mil them an moa is an moa is an moa and an iphy is an iphy is an iphy. you miss 2 moa left you dial 2 moa and you hit. if you miss .7 mil high you dial.7 and you hit if you mis 3 iphy low you dial 3 iphy and you hit as long as your turrets and reticle match. If I'm wrong please correct me

 
Re: Mil or MOA ?

OK please answer me this. If I have a .1 mil elevation adjustment scope like the Premier Heritage how much will one .1 mil click move the point of impact at 100 yards in inches? I know my 1/4moa scope will move it approxmately .250 inches.
I guess I want to know which one has the finer adjustments????????
 
Re: Mil or MOA ?

Yes, 1/4" = 0.25" @ 100 yds.
1 mil 0.36"@ 100 yds.


For the rest I was quoting the song. Nothing could be finer than to be in Carolina in the Morning....

Bob
 
Re: Mil or MOA ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BobinNC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, 1/4" = 0.25" @ 100 yds.
1 mil 0.36"@ 100 yds.


For the rest I was quoting the song. Nothing could be finer than to be in Carolina in the Morning....

Bob </div></div>

This is why I like MOA to MOA. But I have got my ass kicked plenty of times at competitions by guys using MIL to MIL. As was stated above the reticle should match the turret. MIL to MOA is IMO a waste of time unless money is tight then you work with what you got.
 
Re: Mil or MOA ?

It goes beyond the .11 difference, sure it is .11" of an inch finer and like posted, either way it is a hit because no one can hold that kind of accuracy. However the biggest difference is with the reticle.

There is no MOA standard, and most cannot break their reticle into .25" They just don't all break down into 1 MOA and then breaking that 1 MOA down is a task in itself and doesn't lend to the same ease of a Mil based reticle, which is pretty much standard because regardless of the divisions between 0 and 1 Mil, there are still 10ths there which ever reticle is being used.

Like I have said many times, most people who try to work this problem on paper figure the MOA is the way to go, maybe even on their home range by themselves they still think its a good idea, however once they step outside their own little circle it usually falls apart during practical applications. Granted its a broad statement and not everyone falls apart, but the majority does and usually end up walking away realizing they made a mistake.

If you take two brand new shooters and teach one Mils and one MOA the Mil shooter will be much better off much sooner, that we have seen for a fact.

But the decision is definitely a personal choice, however don't like the "finer" numbers fool you. It doesn't equal more accuracy.
 
Re: Mil or MOA ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chad3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Again, Mil/Mil is the SH&T. You spot your hit, adjust without thinking with either the reticle or the turrets and fire. If you don't have a Mil/Mil scope try one and come back and say what you think. Even better, just sight in a new rifle and scope with it. The steps:
Shoot, read, adjust, on target.
What is easier than that?
Chad </div></div>

This isn't one unit of measure being better than the other, because any scope with matching turrets and reticle do what you just said.

I like IPHY, just because the math for ranging has no conversion, just in case your LRF goes out and the dog ate the mildot master. No 27.77 constant to play with. Consider a 10" round plate-if it covers 2 IPHY(SMOA) its 500 yards, if it covers 3 its 333 yards, if it is only 1 its 1K, if its 2.5 its 400......typed those off the top of my head in seconds, try that with mils.

LL- I don't come from an position of justifying it on paper, its just easier for me. But also I just don't buy that a smart feller that can break a mil in a reticle into tenths couldn't wrap their head around quartering a minute mark (which isn't even really necessary because even if you can only halve it, its gonna put lead on steel-and if it doesn't, the "dial what you see" still applies).
 
Re: Mil or MOA ?

I definately agree that using a mil reticle with moa clicks can fall apart quickly under stress, but any matching unit system that is consistent, and consistently trained with will work.
 
Re: Mil or MOA ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MuleHunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

This is why I like MOA to MOA. But I have got my ass kicked plenty of times at competitions by guys using MIL to MIL. As was stated above the reticle should match the turret. MIL to MOA is IMO a waste of time unless money is tight then you work with what you got. </div></div>

I agree completely. Usually when I get beaten at comps by folks using mil/mil, its because I shot like a caffinated, nicotine junkie retard and they just outshot me, not that I dicked up the math.
 
Re: Mil or MOA ?

Glad IPHY works for you, but again, an individuals ability to use one product doesn't do the majority any good when there is no IPHY or MOA standard across scopes. It severely limits their buying options.

When one can buy a $600 Super Sniper that is Mil / Mil or a even a Falcon Menace and know that the mils are correct, and in 10th that says a lot and something the MOA community doesn't have.

As well you fail to realize, most people are taught, 1 MOA @ 100, 2 @ 200, 3 @ 300, etc, and always attempt to think of MOA in those terms and multiple the amount. It;s never as cut and dry as you think, and just because it works for you, especially in "ranging" well that doesn't mean it will work for people who have mixed scopes or that don't know whether their scope is SMOA, or TMOA especially when Customer Service for most companies don't even have a clue themselves. If they can't get it right, how do you expect part time shooters too.

Funny how you went right to "ranging" like always, which is such a small percentage of anything. It's 2009, almost 2010... get a laser, and spend the $4.99 and buy new batteries everytime you go out for a competition. Ranging is a lame excuse when I can look at a target and say, "I think it is between 500 and 600 yards, then dial on a 4 MIls and shoot never having to range a thing... not to mention I can tape a simple chart on my scope cap:
mil_table_inches.gif


Look ranging problem solved with no extra work.

Keep using what makes you happy, but for a new shooter, or a novice shooter, Mils are easier as their is no bastardization of the unit like there is with MOA.
 
Re: Mil or MOA ?

Oh I realize the discrpencies manufacturers have with moa. Many don't realize their MOA marked USO's are IPHY (unless they have one of their few "moa" reticles that are actually moa
eek.gif
).

I definately get your points. You teach and see alot of shooters and I'm sure your preference is highly justified. Also, as a teacher you will definately teach best the system that works best in your experience.

I just hope if the economy turns around and I can afford to come out for some training you'll let me play even if I have an "inferior" system
wink.gif
 
Re: Mil or MOA ?

I'll stay on the IPHY page as well. The USO, MDMOA can be broken down to .25 IPHY which I can't hold anyway. An with a 1/2 IPHY EREK it's about as it gets for me. Granted I never learned Mil because I grew up with inch's an yds.

All the Commie/USA TO&E ident cards I ever seen (back when) were in inchs/yds, were they ever printed an issued in mil's?
 
Re: Mil or MOA ?

It didn't start off inferior, it just morphed that way.

You have to understand, as i have said this before, I drew USO's first MOA reticle with John Sr on a Napkin at a steakhouse in Orlando, that was the foundation for their first one. So I know what you are saying, however the industry does not recognize it sufficiently or correctly enough to try and "sell" it as many of you do.

It's a solid system, unfortunately one that has been bastardized due to years of misuse.
 
Re: Mil or MOA ?

This is an interesting debate that could go on forever. I agree there are more scope options for mil/mil. Mil is used by the military (the reticle anyways) and most european companies are going to do mil. I'm a plumber I think in inches and feet probably because I look at a tape measure all day. I think it would be stretching it to say moa-moa is a handicap. I'm fairly new to tactical comps but I see a lot of both setups, pick whichever one you think best suites your abilities and don't sweat it.
 
Re: Mil or MOA ?

The point you all are missing is:

You don't have to think in inches, yards, feet, millimeters, centimeters or anything like that...

Just mils... that's it, a mil is a mil, you "read" the reticle and move on from there, there is no reason to "think" about anything linear at all.

If you can read a ruler you can read a reticle
 
Re: Mil or MOA ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is an interesting debate that could go on forever.</div></div>

Actually, it's not really an interesting debate. It's a really boring debate.

Find a reticle that you like to shoot, which is mostly a matter of taste and whim rather than functionality. Get a scope which adjusts in the same base units as the reticle is graduated in.

End of debate.

People who spend half as much time dry-firing and practicing the fundamentals of marksmanship as they do debating stupid stuff on the Internet would be winning competitions, and wouldn't have time for such trivia.
 
Re: Mil or MOA ?

I prefer MOA/MOA, it is easier for me to use, I grow up with metrics, but learned and got used to inches and yards as well, so it doesn't bother me either way. I just feel its easier for me to divide a space into 4 than into 10.

The draw back is that I don't read the same with most of my shooting buddies, and their spotting scopes. Unless, one day they decided to make MOA reticle in the spotting scopes. :p

Edit: I read Lindy's post above after I sent mine in. I agree, its a personal choice, as long as the reticle matches the knobs, do what makes it easier for YOU.
 
Re: Mil or MOA ?

LL no disrespect but I think you are missing the point of the people that ARE using the reticle for measurement. Yes a rangefinder is usually the way to go but IF you have to use the reticle for ranging most people will learn the MOA set up faster.
 
Re: Mil or MOA ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[
Find a reticle that you like to shoot, which is mostly a matter of taste and whim rather than functionality. Get a scope which adjusts in the same base units as the reticle is graduated in.

End of debate.

People who spend half as much time dry-firing and practicing the fundamentals of marksmanship as they do debating stupid stuff on the Internet would be winning competitions, and wouldn't have time for such trivia.
</div></div>
Hear hear!
 
Re: Mil or MOA ?

No they won't. I can teach anyone with an IQ above room temperature to range with a mil-based reticle in about 15 minutes, and it's the same time it takes them to learn to range with an MOA or IPHY reticle. Only the math is different, and the math is trivial. And the math is what a Mildot Master and calculators are for. If you're doing the math by hand, a counter-sniper with a Mildot Master will kill you d.e.a.d.

 
Re: Mil or MOA ?

Sure they are, that is why half of them use 100 when they should be using 95.5 and the other half isn't nearly as accurate "reading" the reticle in inches, any more than people who dont' practice ranging a target no matter what.

it's a perishable skill ranging, I can read a mil reticle in to the hundredths but you dont' see me pressing that point. Trust me I see it all, I see it in training in matches, you name it. I'm not sitting by myself thinking shit up.

If all you have to fall on is reading the reticle in MOA and you do it, of course you'll be better at it than someone who doesn't practice it, except maybe one or twice a year. But for someone who practices it, its no better or worse than anything else.

Ranging, especially with a reticle is only a very small part of tactical shooting. Tie that chart laminated to your rifle and I practice it, and guarantee it is no harder than doing it with MOA in your head. And you adjust, hold, and shooting using .1 Mils all the time, you get very adapt at seeing the mils to .01 because you are used to it. You see the same thing over and over.

And just to throw something else at you... how about putting the reticle on one side of the target and then adjusting the windage until it gets to the other side of the target and you just ranged mechanically to the 10ths.
 
Re: Mil or MOA ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Only the math is different, and the math is trivial.

</div></div>
Lindy that was the point I was trying to make. I never was good at math so its not so trivial to me. When I am dealing with MOA I can do the math in my head without a calculator or any kind of chart. I don't have to remember any kind of conversion numbers.
 
Re: Mil or MOA ?

Here is the thing, Lindy was right, this really is a dead debate.

It does not matter. Honestly in the vast majority of practical situations, it does not matter.

You laze your target, get a range and dail what your card says or hold such. If you miss, you hold the part of the reticle that the spash hit on the target and fire again...hit, Done.

This process has nothing to do with math or clicks or 1/4's or tenths or inches or centimeters or...

It is best if your knobs match your reticle if you prefer to dail your second shot instead of hold it, but that takes longer.

I used to prefer MOA because it was easier for me to range and more accurate. I can personally break a line in half better than I can break one into 5th's. I am swicthing to mils because I realized that it does not matter, there are more options for quality mil setups than MOA, so I use mil. I can go back and forth, it does not matter.

What is important is that your spotter calls corrections in the same system you are using. If your spotter actually has a reticle, it is most likely mil. If your spotter does not have a reticle, they are guessing at best. And again, it does not matter.

See a trend here? It does not matter.
 
Re: Mil or MOA ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boone</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So what to you tell the guy that likes his mildot and moa clicks.
wink.gif
</div></div>

Shoot the piss out of it and love every minute of it!
I have 2 scopes like that and barring lottery wins, they aren't getting upgraded soon. My two that I shoot most and comps with are matching (but one's mil/mil, one's IPHY/IPHY-hence my mind-f*cking myself ad nauseum over the beniefits of each).

BTW LL-you should have drawn graduations for hold-unders on that reticle in Orlando!
 
Re: Mil or MOA ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boone</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So what to you tell the guy that likes his mildot and moa clicks.
wink.gif
</div></div>

Shoot the piss out of it and love every minute of it!
I have 2 scopes like that and barring lottery wins, they aren't getting upgraded soon. My two that I shoot most and comps with are matching (but one's mil/mil, one's IPHY/IPHY-hence my mind-f*cking myself ad nauseum over the beniefits of each).

BTW LL-you should have drawn graduations for hold-unders on that reticle in Orlando! </div></div>

I like being able to bounce from my Night Force to a Mark 4 with out issues or remembering formulas or yada yada. I see the benefit in the Mil/Mil scopes and end up telling people that's how they should get there scopes set up. But for people that have muiltiple scopes its a mute point.
 
Re: Mil or MOA ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boone</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So what to you tell the guy that likes his mildot and moa clicks.
wink.gif
</div></div>

It does not matter.

Range your target, dail what your card tells you, shoot. If you see your splash, hold your next shot, if your spotter sees your shot and tells you in mils, hold it, if he tells you in MOA, dail it, done.
 
Re: Mil or MOA ?

Mil/mil all the way, more scope builders are seeing the light and offering more options with this config.
 
Re: Mil or MOA ?

These posts have been invaluable for a newb like me. Thanks for all the great info. I think I'm going to get a mil/mil, then head down to Rifle's Only so they can teach me how to use it.
 
Re: Mil or MOA ?

love MOA/MOA because its easier for me understand when someone is calling shots. But with the mildot master i just purchases for my tactical scope, makes it so much easier and I dont mind Mil or MOA anymore
 
Re: Mil or MOA ?

I have seen this so many times, in courses and so forth.

IMHO, people who prefer MOA:s over mrads are ones that haven't realized its simpleness.
New things always seem confusing compared to old one.

Hear Lindy- and forget units. Its the angle.
 
Re: Mil or MOA ?

Another newbie here but which PMII has the MIL/MIL combination available. I'll be building an Accuracy International soon and think MIL/MIL will be the way to go.

Thanks guys. Great thread!
 
Re: Mil or MOA ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And just to throw something else at you... how about putting the reticle on one side of the target and then adjusting the windage until it gets to the other side of the target and you just ranged mechanically to the 10ths.
</div></div>
What a great idea. That is so much easier than trying to figure tenths in between lines. Thanks. You are a plethora of knowledge.
 
Re: Mil or MOA ?

I would get whatever the other people I am training with uses. Both systems work. To say one is "better" than the other is like saying meters are better than yards. Not really, they are just a measure of distance. If you just shoot on your own, get whatever you are most comfortable with.

The military, the shooting community and the world are going to mils. For that matter, the same can be said for metric system. The reason you hear that mils is "metric" is that it is 10 based. .1 mil is 1cm at 100meters, just like 1" is about 1moa at 100 yards.

MOA has one main advantage. It is familiar to most people. We measure our group size in inches and adjust our elevation and windage in MOA. At 100 yards one MOA is about 1". At 500 yards, one MOA is about 5". If you are actually measuring off the target (like you go LOOK at the target and measure with a tape measure) working with MOA in this way is easier. Also, most of our ballistics charts are in MOA, and although they CAN be changed to Mils, a lot of shooters have pretty much memorized the MOA comeups at the various yardages. Anyway some shooters know MOA intuitively if things are off a lot. If they work a long time in mils they will know that too.

The advantage mils has is that it is EXACTLY 1 in 1000. Unfortunately an moa is not EXACTLY 1" in 100 yards, it is 1" in 95.5 yards. Sometimes it is enough to matter. So there is that pesky 5% that keeps cropping up. Sometimes you have to add 5%, sometimes you have to subtract it and sometimes you don't remember whether to add it or subtract it (in that case just stick with 100). Anyway it is a bit of a bother.

There is a reason that Leupold and the military went with mil reticle and moa turret. Mil reticle for ranging, moa turret to match the comeups in MOA and the ease of 1" in 100yards, 2" in 200 yards etc is one MOA. Sort of the "best of both worlds".

Putting the reticle and turret in the same system allows you to observe your misses through the scope in mils or 1/10ths of mil (or moa and 1/4moa) and turn the turret that many mils (or moa) without bothering with how many inches or cms off the target you are. If your shot is 2 mils to the right, just dial in 2 mils of left windage without worrying about how many inches off you were. The trend is swinging to matching reticle and turret although there are still plenty of scopes out there with mil reticles and moa turrets. The scope mfgs are just starting to catch onto this trend.

Really there is more than two systems. There is mil/mil moa/moa
mil/moa and iphy/iphy (and maybe a few more floating around).
The real problem is there is more than ONE system. If there was only one, we'd all use IT and things would be a lot simpler.
 
Re: Mil or MOA ?

Not to dredge up an older topic, but there is a LOT of good info in this thread and I've already started the process of changing all my scopes to Mil/Mil. When I hit 100 posts, expect to find some USO and Leupold scopes for sale.
smile.gif
 
Re: Mil or MOA ?

Snipershide Forum Rules: "You must contribute to this site in a positive manner. "Reviving a 3 1/2 month old thread" does not count as a contribution to this site. Those attempting to pad their post count in order to meet the minimum 100 post requirements will be banned from the site for no less than 30 days."

 
Re: Mil or MOA ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Quickdraw40</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Snipershide Forum Rules: "You must contribute to this site in a positive manner. "Reviving a 3 1/2 month old thread" does not count as a contribution to this site. Those attempting to pad their post count in order to meet the minimum 100 post requirements will be banned from the site for no less than 30 days."

</div></div>

You're REALLY stretching if you're trying to apply the above to my post on this thread. Look at my join date - it's one month from yours and how many posts do you have? Look at my posts; how many "post pads" do you see in there? Surely I don't have any of these: Quickdraw40 "tag" reply or these. I happen to spend more time reading on this site and learning than posting right now. In doing so, I found this thread to be a very good one, one which incited me to action and left my feedback on it. If I were trying to "pad" my account to reach a post count, don't you think I'd already have, oh 400 posts or so? I know the rules. It just irks me when people jump on others for crap like this trying to insinuate something that isn't there.

So Quickdraw40, arbiter of the 'Hide rules, how old does a thread need to be before I am no longer allowed to reply to it?

You jump on me because I reply to a thread that helped me out (gee, couldn't do the same for someone else, could it?) which happens to add a "+1" to the number of posts I have. Do you spend your time in Maggie's Drawers B&G calling padders out there as well? Ironic that your post contributed less than mine and was certainly off-topic. Which rule number is that?

crazy.gif


Mods - how about deleting this reply and the one right above it? I wouldn't want Quickdraw40 to reply again accusing me of another "pad post".
 
Re: Mil or MOA ?

Dont sweat it fellas lifes to short for pissing matches.

This is one of those topics that always comes up, and im sure some newbie out there has now seen this topic and learnt something from it.

smile.gif
 
Re: Mil or MOA ?

I'm glad it was revisited...I've been struggling with which way to go, and after reading this I have my mind made up...yep I'm still thoroughly lost!LOL I really want what ever would be easiest for long range hunting.....I think I will go with mil/mil and give it a whirl...?
 
Re: Mil or MOA ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jtb33</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not to dredge up an older topic, but there is a LOT of good info in this thread and I've already started the process of changing all my scopes to Mil/Mil. When I hit 100 posts, expect to find some USO and Leupold scopes for sale.
smile.gif
</div></div>

I am not an expert but could you not send the USO scope back to them and have them change it to mil/mil for you? I am sure there is a charge for this service but might be less then the cost differential of selling one and buying another. Just a thought...
 
Re: Mil or MOA ?

had this chat with a Nightforce tech once:

told me to reach in my pocket and pull out a dollar bill and tell me how long it is.

My response was of course in inches

He asked if I was out shooting with a buddy and he missed would I call the miss in inches, feet or yards or in metric.

get where I am going?
I would say if you are going to get ultra serious about LR shooting then perhaps Mil/Mil, if more of a hunter with the occasional LR stuff for fun and the challenge, then perhaps MOA/MOA makes more sense.

I fall in the latter camp personally
 
Re: Mil or MOA ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Les Welch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm glad it was revisited...I've been struggling with which way to go, and after reading this I have my mind made up...yep I'm still thoroughly lost!LOL I really want what ever would be easiest for long range hunting.....I think I will go with mil/mil and give it a whirl...? </div></div>

I had a nice collection of .25MOA scopes with Mildots and was content with them until I read this and decided to try a Mil/Mil scope. Ugh! Ignorance was bliss, but Mil/Mil is so much nicer.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DamnYuppie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jtb33</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not to dredge up an older topic, but there is a LOT of good info in this thread and I've already started the process of changing all my scopes to Mil/Mil. When I hit 100 posts, expect to find some USO and Leupold scopes for sale.
smile.gif
</div></div>

I am not an expert but could you not send the USO scope back to them and have them change it to mil/mil for you? I am sure there is a charge for this service but might be less then the cost differential of selling one and buying another. Just a thought... </div></div>

I gave it a thought, but I will admit that I "over-bought" my USO, so I will probably end up selling it and getting a model that doesn't have as many features that I won't really use.