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Range Report Miller stability

Jclick45

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 2, 2010
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Ok so I use jbm's ballistic FTE, which is always dead on. But can someone explain to me what the Miller stability numbers mean?? I know who he is, what the formula is intended to determine and all that. But I can't find an actual explanation of the calculated "Miller Stability" numbers on the program! I put in the projectile length and barrel twist and I get:
2.19 for the 69 SMK
1.88 for the 77 SMK
How accurate is this being that it doesn't seem to take olgive or anything else into consideration. I would like to understand this as I have a number of different twist rate/bullet combinations I would like to check. Any ideas guys?
 
Re: Miller stability

Well I'm not a mathematician so no...... I don't need to find my twist rate I want to know what the end computation of JBM means. Is it good? Is it unstable? I'm really not great with math I'm just wondering if anyone uses this or what it translates to...
 
Re: Miller stability

The classical gyroscopic stability criterion is s > 1. The Miller rule is an approximation to calculate s. Your values are greater than 1, so your bullets should fly stable. Ballisticians recommend stability factors between 1.5 and 2. Bench Resters prefer lower values due to negative effects of spin on accuracy.
 
Re: Miller stability

Bryan Litz advocates staying above 1.4 for stability. FWIW, in my own testing I have had stability down to 1.15
 
Re: Miller stability

Just a quick note -- it's not "JBM's Ballistic FTE". I have nothing to do with the product you purchased. Any questions related to how it works should be asked of the author -- that's why I don't answer questions about this software.

Thanks!

Brad
 
Re: Miller stability

Brad, the OP does raise a point I've been curious about. Speaking specifically to your online calculator, does it attempt to infer bullet shape (or more to the point, distribution of mass) from the dimensions the user inputs? Or does it rely on a standardized shape?
 
Re: Miller stability

No, sorry, I was remembering incorrectly and confusing the inputs for your Miller calculator with those for the trajectory calculator.
 
Re: Miller stability

JBM forgive the misunderstanding, I saw that "Ballistic FTE" USES your calculator
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Thanks guys for all the excellent information, thats exactly what I needed. So it appears that my 1-9 twist barrel will shoot 77SMK's as well mathematically as it does on paper lol

If I understand correctly velocity has a great effect on stability. SO, does that mean that after the bullets go subsonic that the stability would decrease?
 
Re: Miller stability

Also Fred C Dobbs question still seems to remain concerning the miller formula. I wonder if it does rely solely on a standardized shape? A Barnes 70 is far longer and has more rifling contact than even a 77 SMK. I suppose it all boils down to live testing, but that sure gets expensive
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Re: Miller stability

The short answer to your question is yes, you are good.

The longer answer is that the Miller stability formula is an improved method over the Greenhill formula to calculate gyroscopic stability. Any value over 1.0 is technically supposed to be stable, but in reality you want the Miller value to be 1.4 or greater to account for various sources of error. You need to spin any projectile that is not fin stabilized if you don't want it to tumble. Shape does affect gyro stability, in that a short fat bullet is stabilizes at a slower spin rate than does a long skinny bullet. The stability factor formula does account somewhat for shape by using diameter, length and mass and the differences in ogive profiles shouldn't be significant with respect to stability among the commonly utilized rifle bullets. There are atmospheric and velocity corrections to the basic formula that I would assume Ballistic makes...you could change the velocity and atmospherics to see if the Miller value changes to be sure.

You can disregard the differences in rifling contact area on the bullet. Mathematically the formula assumes the bullet is spinning at the muzzle at the rate imparted by the rifle twist with no slippage...while this may not be totally true this is close enough.

You have a misunderstanding about the velocity affect. It may be counter-intuitive but the gyroscopic stability of the bullet it actually at its least right at the muzzle. This is because for two identical projectiles spinning at the same rate, the one with the higher velocity has more force acting on it trying to turn the bullet over in flight. For our purposes, when we fire a bullet and it goes downrange both the forward velocity and the rotational velocity (or spin) will decrease. However, the forward velocity will decrease much faster than the spin, so the stability factor actually increases...the bullet will get MORE gyroscopically stable during the time of flight, not less. Why then do bullets sometimes tumble at long range? Well, there are dynamic stability forces that have overcome the gyroscopic stabilizing force as the bullet goes trans-sonic then sub-sonic. You are not likely to change those forces very much by using more spin, so a tighter twist is not real likely to prevent a bullet from tumbling <span style="font-style: italic">at range</span>.

For two different <span style="font-style: italic">muzzle</span> velocities and all other things being equal, the higher muzzle velocity will impart higher gyroscopic stability, but a change in muzzle velocity does not drastically change the stability like you might think. To demonstrate this, go to Ballistic and compare Miller values for two different reasonable velocities and two different reasonable twist rates. The twist of the rifling has a much more pronounced effect. That is why it is difficult to correct an inappropriately slow twist for a given bullet and cartridge by jacking up the velocity...you usually cannot get there before you run out of case capacity.

If you like esoteric discussions like this then buy Bryan Litz's book: Applied Ballistics For Long Range Shooting
 
Re: Miller stability

Interesting.

I used the bullet dimensions from the drawing of the 175-gr SMK in the back of "Applied Ballistics" and ran it through JBM's online Drag/Twist calculator. It uses all the relevant measurements, including meplat diameter, ogive type, ogive radius, boattail length and base diameter. Through a 1:12 barrel @2600 fps, it predicted a Miller# of 1.6.

Then I ran the same bullet in JBM's online Miller calculator, which doesn't care about ogive, boattail or meplat. All it asks for is caliber, length and weight. Since the SMK has a substantial boattail and a hollowpoint meplat, no way they'd be even close, right? Except the Miller# prediction (from the same barrel/MV) was 1.667.

Must be PFM.
 
Re: Miller stability

KYpatriot that is one of the most informative wire ups I have seen on the subject!

"Ballistic" does indeed provide different Miller numbers depending on velocity and atmosphere. And Fred C Dobbs experiment seems to prove that bullet shape or rifling contact really has no distinguishable effect on the calculations, they do seem to be quite accurate in this case!

Your explanation of the velocity/stability relationship seems to explain (at least in my mind) why many times a rifle will shoot better (tighter MOA) at distance.

While I might not be able to CORRECT an improper twist rate/bullet combination, I at least am able to IMPROVE a marginally stable bullet by keeping the velocity as high as reasonably possible. I was shooting somewhat of a "mellow" load.
 
Re: Miller stability

Click it is true that some bullet/twist combos will not settled down and "go to sleep" until the Miller value goes up due to velocity decay, but the effect is not likely large enough for you to see on target. Litz does a great job demonstrating the magnitude of these effects, and I just don't believe in rifles that shoot noticeably better at range than at 100 yards. I think it is something else causing that, like the shooter.

I agree with your last statement...more velocity does help a marginally stable bullet, as does a higher altitude. Some guys out west that are shooting at high field elevations can get away with slower twists. As for the long range dynamic stability problem, there is some evidence that tangent ogive bullets (like the SMK) make the transonic/subsonic transition better than the high BC secant ogive bullets (like the Berger VLD). So it is possible that a secant bullet will outperform the SMK at all supersonic ranges, but still have a lessor max useable range since it may be unstable below the Mach. Not many people are engaging targets very often at ranges where their rounds are subsonic, but I think it would be interesting to collect some real data on which bullets are the best for those ranges and why they work.
 
Re: Miller stability

I will deffenitely get Litz's book on the way. Also it's very interesting what you say about bullet shape and subsonic flight. I've never been too impressed with Berger VLD's at 1000 yards with a 223, they just never would group as well as SMK's. Possibly that's the reason as they are deffenitely subsonic at that range.