Re: Moa or mil adjustments question
Reason why beta blockers are considered PED's for shooters. They do help, quite a lot actually.
Reason why beta blockers are considered PED's for shooters. They do help, quite a lot actually.
Rifle Scopes Moa or mil adjustments question
- Thread starter rsplante
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Re: Moa or mil adjustments question
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: UncleBenji</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fully Involved</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: UncleBenji</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fully Involved</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> How will not knowing the effect of breathing and heartbeat (through lower power) actually help my shots?</div></div>
The best way I can explain it is like when you're watching a home video and the filmer as really jittery. They then try to zoom in on the action and their shacking becuase nearly impossible to watch. Then, when they zoom out again it's easier to watch becuase the jittery motions aren't as noticeable when zoomed out. So, when you're zoomed that far in with your scope it becomes very difficult to stay aligned and concentrated on your target when the whole picture is shacking and thumping from your heartbeat.
I hope that kinda helps. </div></div>
I see what you are saying, but is the analogy necessarily accurate. My understanding of how to overcome breathing and heartbeat misalignments is to 1) some variation of holding breath or timing between breaths, and 2) for the heartbeat, try to send the bullet as the minor movement from your heartbeat has the crosshairs crossing the target. I might be wrong about the method of achieving my goal, but I thought the idea was to recognize the movement potential and deal with it directly, not effectively ignore it by reducing your visual acquity, (ie. the movement is still there, you just don't see it anymore.)</div></div>
You're heart is going to beat and your breathing will move the scope regardless of the magnification of the scope. However, what you see will impact the way you shoot, but you don't have to take my word for it. Go ahead and get the 32x! </div></div>
As I said, I do understand what you are saying. My cheap current scope goes to 40x, so I have seen the breathing and heartbeat effect. What I am saying is that the breathing and heartbeat are not only moving the scope, they are also moving the rifle aimpoint. Am I missing something? Please explain differently as I feel I am missing something.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: UncleBenji</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fully Involved</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: UncleBenji</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fully Involved</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> How will not knowing the effect of breathing and heartbeat (through lower power) actually help my shots?</div></div>
The best way I can explain it is like when you're watching a home video and the filmer as really jittery. They then try to zoom in on the action and their shacking becuase nearly impossible to watch. Then, when they zoom out again it's easier to watch becuase the jittery motions aren't as noticeable when zoomed out. So, when you're zoomed that far in with your scope it becomes very difficult to stay aligned and concentrated on your target when the whole picture is shacking and thumping from your heartbeat.
I hope that kinda helps. </div></div>
I see what you are saying, but is the analogy necessarily accurate. My understanding of how to overcome breathing and heartbeat misalignments is to 1) some variation of holding breath or timing between breaths, and 2) for the heartbeat, try to send the bullet as the minor movement from your heartbeat has the crosshairs crossing the target. I might be wrong about the method of achieving my goal, but I thought the idea was to recognize the movement potential and deal with it directly, not effectively ignore it by reducing your visual acquity, (ie. the movement is still there, you just don't see it anymore.)</div></div>
You're heart is going to beat and your breathing will move the scope regardless of the magnification of the scope. However, what you see will impact the way you shoot, but you don't have to take my word for it. Go ahead and get the 32x! </div></div>
As I said, I do understand what you are saying. My cheap current scope goes to 40x, so I have seen the breathing and heartbeat effect. What I am saying is that the breathing and heartbeat are not only moving the scope, they are also moving the rifle aimpoint. Am I missing something? Please explain differently as I feel I am missing something.
Re: Moa or mil adjustments question
Maybe my disconnect is caused by your not being familiar with my shooting position. I am not standing, I am using a bipod and sandbag. So I am not chasing the crosshairs, I merely need to fire at the right time with the right technique (whatever that is) to minimize the effect of the breathing and heartbeat. The high magnification merely shows me that the aimpoint really is moving all over the place. Lowering the visual acquity will merely ignore that movement I believe.
Maybe my disconnect is caused by your not being familiar with my shooting position. I am not standing, I am using a bipod and sandbag. So I am not chasing the crosshairs, I merely need to fire at the right time with the right technique (whatever that is) to minimize the effect of the breathing and heartbeat. The high magnification merely shows me that the aimpoint really is moving all over the place. Lowering the visual acquity will merely ignore that movement I believe.
Re: Moa or mil adjustments question
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: notquiteright</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fully-
What seeing all the heartbeat movement does is make the novice shooter 'fight' harder to try and stop it- (in breath control the shot is taken at the respiratory pause helps with that jiggle)
Some might yoga there way out of the heartbeat but when the stress monkey climbs on your back that maybe easier said than done. For many dailing the power down eliminates SEEING the heartbeat and fretting about it. Have seen it work a WHOOOLE lot of times.
Now the great NF/SB/USO debate. If the biggest loss you take selling your NF off in a few years when you learn from your 'mistake' and go with S&B or whatever flavor of the month scope that is hot shit, if that is your biggest 'loss' you are major bucks ahead of many who are giving you advice.
While I personally wouldn't jump to a NF as an entry level scope I'll bet you a shiny nickle it will do you for years if you are not a gear queer.
And if you are, it appears half a gear queer's fun is being able to say, "I own a thisnthat but love my whatsagiggy."
</div></div>
Wellll, I wouldn't quite put it that way, but I do already consider myself a tool junkie. I guess my introductory post at the top of this thread could also contribute to that impression. This is actually my third scope on this rifle. I initially bought a VERY cheap scope, a Barska. Then, I was at a gunshow and let a salesman talk me into an Osprey. Now, I can finally afford a good scope (notice I did not say a Great scope), and I have managed once to fit 4 our of a 5 shot group inside of 0.25moa, one ragged hole. I might be a gear queer, in your terminology, but what the heck. I want a NF and can now afford it. I would just like to try to narrow it down to the right NF. Basically, the way I look at it, if I eliminate my equipment as an excuse, I only have my marksmanship to blame for my shooting.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: notquiteright</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fully-
What seeing all the heartbeat movement does is make the novice shooter 'fight' harder to try and stop it- (in breath control the shot is taken at the respiratory pause helps with that jiggle)
Some might yoga there way out of the heartbeat but when the stress monkey climbs on your back that maybe easier said than done. For many dailing the power down eliminates SEEING the heartbeat and fretting about it. Have seen it work a WHOOOLE lot of times.
Now the great NF/SB/USO debate. If the biggest loss you take selling your NF off in a few years when you learn from your 'mistake' and go with S&B or whatever flavor of the month scope that is hot shit, if that is your biggest 'loss' you are major bucks ahead of many who are giving you advice.
While I personally wouldn't jump to a NF as an entry level scope I'll bet you a shiny nickle it will do you for years if you are not a gear queer.
And if you are, it appears half a gear queer's fun is being able to say, "I own a thisnthat but love my whatsagiggy."
Wellll, I wouldn't quite put it that way, but I do already consider myself a tool junkie. I guess my introductory post at the top of this thread could also contribute to that impression. This is actually my third scope on this rifle. I initially bought a VERY cheap scope, a Barska. Then, I was at a gunshow and let a salesman talk me into an Osprey. Now, I can finally afford a good scope (notice I did not say a Great scope), and I have managed once to fit 4 our of a 5 shot group inside of 0.25moa, one ragged hole. I might be a gear queer, in your terminology, but what the heck. I want a NF and can now afford it. I would just like to try to narrow it down to the right NF. Basically, the way I look at it, if I eliminate my equipment as an excuse, I only have my marksmanship to blame for my shooting.
Re: Moa or mil adjustments question
The NF 8-32x56 has 52.5 elevation travel with the 20 MOA base. That is enough to get past 1000 yd with a 175 gr .308 load, which is more than I anticipate ever needing.
As far as windage, when you consider that a 0.1 mil adjustment will shift the POI 2.16" at 600 yd, if you're not dead center elevation on the X-ring, you can be just a hair outside the X in the 10-ring, and one click windage adjustment will put you out of the X-ring on the far side. I have compared my scores for 3 x 20 rounds of fire at 600 yd repeatedly using either a 5.5-22x50 with 0.1 mil turrets, or the 8-32x56 with 0.125 MOA turrets on the same rifle with the same ammunition. I have consistently scored higher using the 8-32x56, and I believe the finer adjustment value is a big part of that result. The extra mag of the 8-32x56 is nice, but not always useful depending on mirage conditions. However, with the 5.5-22x50, it's not available if I want it, mirage or not. Maybe what works best for me is not for everyone, but the 8-32x56 definitely does the job for which it was intended and I'm very satisfied with the results.
As I stated, I purchased the NF 8-32x56 scope for a very specific purpose and that it would <span style="font-style: italic">not</span> be the best scope for the OP's intended purpose, although he specifically referred to it in his initial post. I mentioned the difference in turret adjustments merely for his edification as he stated the possibility of getting into longer range shooting at some future date.
The NF 8-32x56 has 52.5 elevation travel with the 20 MOA base. That is enough to get past 1000 yd with a 175 gr .308 load, which is more than I anticipate ever needing.
As far as windage, when you consider that a 0.1 mil adjustment will shift the POI 2.16" at 600 yd, if you're not dead center elevation on the X-ring, you can be just a hair outside the X in the 10-ring, and one click windage adjustment will put you out of the X-ring on the far side. I have compared my scores for 3 x 20 rounds of fire at 600 yd repeatedly using either a 5.5-22x50 with 0.1 mil turrets, or the 8-32x56 with 0.125 MOA turrets on the same rifle with the same ammunition. I have consistently scored higher using the 8-32x56, and I believe the finer adjustment value is a big part of that result. The extra mag of the 8-32x56 is nice, but not always useful depending on mirage conditions. However, with the 5.5-22x50, it's not available if I want it, mirage or not. Maybe what works best for me is not for everyone, but the 8-32x56 definitely does the job for which it was intended and I'm very satisfied with the results.
As I stated, I purchased the NF 8-32x56 scope for a very specific purpose and that it would <span style="font-style: italic">not</span> be the best scope for the OP's intended purpose, although he specifically referred to it in his initial post. I mentioned the difference in turret adjustments merely for his edification as he stated the possibility of getting into longer range shooting at some future date.
Re: Moa or mil adjustments question
whatever magnification range you decide on, it will be easier if you pick mil/mil or moa/moa. either one works and is really just your preference.
whatever magnification range you decide on, it will be easier if you pick mil/mil or moa/moa. either one works and is really just your preference.
Re: Moa or mil adjustments question
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fully Involved</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I merely need to fire at the right time with the right technique (whatever that is) to minimize the effect of the breathing and heartbeat.</div></div>The scope is supposed to move when you breathe. And shooting between heartbeats is a myth. Don't worry about concentricity because your AR is probably resizing your brass for you every time the bolt slams shut. Before spending big money on equipment, put a Super Sniper on what you have and spend the rest of the money on a PR 1-2 at Rifles Only. When you're done with that you'll know what you want.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fully Involved</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I merely need to fire at the right time with the right technique (whatever that is) to minimize the effect of the breathing and heartbeat.</div></div>The scope is supposed to move when you breathe. And shooting between heartbeats is a myth. Don't worry about concentricity because your AR is probably resizing your brass for you every time the bolt slams shut. Before spending big money on equipment, put a Super Sniper on what you have and spend the rest of the money on a PR 1-2 at Rifles Only. When you're done with that you'll know what you want.
Re: Moa or mil adjustments question
Fully-
Plenty of other gear queers in here, wear the crown as proudly as I do my Burger king one!
It is great you can afford whatever you want, it helps the economy. FYI a NightForce isn't a good scope, my loopies are good scopes, the NF is a GREAT scope.
But learning the proper techniques BEFORE committing poor technique to muscle memory is priceless. Compared to what your wanting to own my equipt is crap, but if I fail to do whatever skill feat of arms all the kids are doing it is not the rifle.
THAT is the difference training makes. As mentioned above, going to school with good gear beats the crap out of owning great gear but never being sure-
is it the OAL, the velocity, what accuracy node should I use? My heartbeat, my breathing, the bipod, my sandsock/bag/sack of birdshot.
Should I half breathe, take some drugs, find my happy place, MOA turrets or spend 3K+ because some say its the shit.
Go to school and see the different scopes and rifles out there. If you have enough money to buy whatever you want but balk at spending 3K on a scope then money spent on a good school is worth a S&B scope.
TRUST ME, you don't have breasts, no reason for me to lie to you.
Fully-
Plenty of other gear queers in here, wear the crown as proudly as I do my Burger king one!
It is great you can afford whatever you want, it helps the economy. FYI a NightForce isn't a good scope, my loopies are good scopes, the NF is a GREAT scope.
But learning the proper techniques BEFORE committing poor technique to muscle memory is priceless. Compared to what your wanting to own my equipt is crap, but if I fail to do whatever skill feat of arms all the kids are doing it is not the rifle.
THAT is the difference training makes. As mentioned above, going to school with good gear beats the crap out of owning great gear but never being sure-
is it the OAL, the velocity, what accuracy node should I use? My heartbeat, my breathing, the bipod, my sandsock/bag/sack of birdshot.
Should I half breathe, take some drugs, find my happy place, MOA turrets or spend 3K+ because some say its the shit.
Go to school and see the different scopes and rifles out there. If you have enough money to buy whatever you want but balk at spending 3K on a scope then money spent on a good school is worth a S&B scope.
TRUST ME, you don't have breasts, no reason for me to lie to you.
Re: Moa or mil adjustments question
notquiteright,
I agree that technique is VERY important. So far, I guess I have been trying to accomplish that through extensive reading:
Understanding Firearm Ballistics by Robert Rinker
The Art of the Rifle by Jeff Cooper
Green Eyes & Black Rifles by Kyle E. Lamb
Precision Shooting - Reloading Guide - Edited by Dave Brennan
The Competitive AR-15 by Glen Zediker
Currently reading Handloading for Competition by Glen Zediker
The Ultimate Sniper by Maj. John L. Plaster
Guns & Ammo's Book of the AR-15
Perfect Practice by Saul Kirsch
Living with Glocks by Robert H. Boatman
Gun Digest's Book of Trap & Skeet Shooting by Chris Christian & Rick Sapp
Combat Handgunnery by Massad Ayoob
The Gun Digest Book of the Glock by Patrick Sweeny
StressFire by Massad Ayoob
And my next book is Notes of a Sniper by Vassili Zaitsev
I have considered attending a school. The main concern there is telling my wife of 30 years that I will be taking my next vacation by myself at a gunschool in Nevada or some place like that. When I finally screw up my courage, lol, what schools would you recommend since the LEO and Military ones are not available to me? Gunsite? Thunder Ranch? Blackwater?
notquiteright,
I agree that technique is VERY important. So far, I guess I have been trying to accomplish that through extensive reading:
Understanding Firearm Ballistics by Robert Rinker
The Art of the Rifle by Jeff Cooper
Green Eyes & Black Rifles by Kyle E. Lamb
Precision Shooting - Reloading Guide - Edited by Dave Brennan
The Competitive AR-15 by Glen Zediker
Currently reading Handloading for Competition by Glen Zediker
The Ultimate Sniper by Maj. John L. Plaster
Guns & Ammo's Book of the AR-15
Perfect Practice by Saul Kirsch
Living with Glocks by Robert H. Boatman
Gun Digest's Book of Trap & Skeet Shooting by Chris Christian & Rick Sapp
Combat Handgunnery by Massad Ayoob
The Gun Digest Book of the Glock by Patrick Sweeny
StressFire by Massad Ayoob
And my next book is Notes of a Sniper by Vassili Zaitsev
I have considered attending a school. The main concern there is telling my wife of 30 years that I will be taking my next vacation by myself at a gunschool in Nevada or some place like that. When I finally screw up my courage, lol, what schools would you recommend since the LEO and Military ones are not available to me? Gunsite? Thunder Ranch? Blackwater?
Re: Moa or mil adjustments question
Oh, I forgot my reference books:
Sierra Rifle & Handgun Reloading Data
Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading
Oh, I forgot my reference books:
Sierra Rifle & Handgun Reloading Data
Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading
Re: Moa or mil adjustments question
Not sure what rifle you shoot but you seem way to concerned with what to go with....just get a BORS System compatible scope and it will give you the solution to the target in elevation....for windage you are still on your own. Aint cheap but it makes things easier (and heavier to carry).
BORS is compatible with most Leopold Tac model and I beleive some NXS models.
Not sure what rifle you shoot but you seem way to concerned with what to go with....just get a BORS System compatible scope and it will give you the solution to the target in elevation....for windage you are still on your own. Aint cheap but it makes things easier (and heavier to carry).
BORS is compatible with most Leopold Tac model and I beleive some NXS models.
Re: Moa or mil adjustments question
Fully-
I have over 20 years of marriage to the same woman in the books. Our romantic get-a-way this year isn't Maine, the Jersey Shore, or the Poconos, but a two day visit to Gettysburg. You have 30 years, she is a very tolerant woman and should know you by now!
A few smart husbands divide the vacation between the gun thing and the romantic thing. More than a few brought the wife and she got hooked on shooting.
You started out projecting an educated persona, don't dummy down when it comes to working the marriage game!
Oh as an aside, I met a great shooter who said every time he got a new rifle his wife got a new bauble. I met her later and she was covered in bling!
Reading is great, but beyond giving a better grasp of the vocabulary it can create as many problems as it 'solves'. Many a newbie has said they have read and read about mildot but until someone who knew what to do gave them hands on experience they didn't get it.
When it comes to schools that is up to you. no offense but you sound a bit like a man who values the cost and brand name as much as the result.
I've stayed married this long by doing alot of cost/benefit comparisons. Those would not be at the top of any list I'd recommend to a beginner.
But if I owned a rollex...
Fully-
I have over 20 years of marriage to the same woman in the books. Our romantic get-a-way this year isn't Maine, the Jersey Shore, or the Poconos, but a two day visit to Gettysburg. You have 30 years, she is a very tolerant woman and should know you by now!
A few smart husbands divide the vacation between the gun thing and the romantic thing. More than a few brought the wife and she got hooked on shooting.
You started out projecting an educated persona, don't dummy down when it comes to working the marriage game!
Oh as an aside, I met a great shooter who said every time he got a new rifle his wife got a new bauble. I met her later and she was covered in bling!
Reading is great, but beyond giving a better grasp of the vocabulary it can create as many problems as it 'solves'. Many a newbie has said they have read and read about mildot but until someone who knew what to do gave them hands on experience they didn't get it.
When it comes to schools that is up to you. no offense but you sound a bit like a man who values the cost and brand name as much as the result.
I've stayed married this long by doing alot of cost/benefit comparisons. Those would not be at the top of any list I'd recommend to a beginner.
But if I owned a rollex...
Re: Moa or mil adjustments question
notquiteright,
Nah, I was joking about my wife approving, although she might still cause me great bodily harm while I'm asleep if she finds out what I have spend on reloading equipment, lol.
As a matter of fact, on the way to the range today, I was listening to a gun show on the radio and this guy from Nosler called in. He must have the most understanding wife anywhere. He just got married and guess where they are spending their honeymoon, Camp Perry!
notquiteright,
Nah, I was joking about my wife approving, although she might still cause me great bodily harm while I'm asleep if she finds out what I have spend on reloading equipment, lol.
As a matter of fact, on the way to the range today, I was listening to a gun show on the radio and this guy from Nosler called in. He must have the most understanding wife anywhere. He just got married and guess where they are spending their honeymoon, Camp Perry!
Re: Moa or mil adjustments question
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: notquiteright</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fully-
When it comes to schools that is up to you. no offense but you sound a bit like a man who values the cost and brand name as much as the result.
</div></div>
Nah, Those are just the ones I have heard of (spelled, advertising). I also notice that this site has some kind of relationship with a school called Rifles Only. Not sure if I will get an objective evaluation though, lmao.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: notquiteright</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fully-
When it comes to schools that is up to you. no offense but you sound a bit like a man who values the cost and brand name as much as the result.
</div></div>
Nah, Those are just the ones I have heard of (spelled, advertising). I also notice that this site has some kind of relationship with a school called Rifles Only. Not sure if I will get an objective evaluation though, lmao.
Re: Moa or mil adjustments question
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Adamxdavis</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not sure what rifle you shoot but you seem way to concerned with what to go with....just get a BORS System compatible scope and it will give you the solution to the target in elevation....for windage you are still on your own. Aint cheap but it makes things easier (and heavier to carry).
BORS is compatible with most Leopold Tac model and I beleive some NXS models. </div></div>
Yeah, I've looked at that before (maybe I AM a "gear queer"), never seriously considered buying it though. The one for NXS says it only works with 1/2moa turrets. Guess I'll just have to wait until all the previous posters convince be to buy a Schmidt & Bender (by that point, the extra $2k won't make much difference.)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Adamxdavis</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not sure what rifle you shoot but you seem way to concerned with what to go with....just get a BORS System compatible scope and it will give you the solution to the target in elevation....for windage you are still on your own. Aint cheap but it makes things easier (and heavier to carry).
BORS is compatible with most Leopold Tac model and I beleive some NXS models. </div></div>
Yeah, I've looked at that before (maybe I AM a "gear queer"), never seriously considered buying it though. The one for NXS says it only works with 1/2moa turrets. Guess I'll just have to wait until all the previous posters convince be to buy a Schmidt & Bender (by that point, the extra $2k won't make much difference.)
