MOA vs Mil

chickon1

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Yes, bringing this up again because I can never get a real answer, even during a match with the top shooters. I know this is not really that big of a deal with calculator and all. What is even more odd, I have watched videos on people not in the US doing reviews on certain items and they are using MOA.

Just like stirring the POT..

Why do we use mil if all the targets are in yards. I consider myself "good" at math, but solving equations with less variables seems to be easier.

"Reasons" I've heard for Mil
They are in tenths.. that would be great if you were using meters
Mil uses whole numbers instead of factions.. really? Not after you do the math
It's what the military snipers use.. Being a vet, military uses meters
It's what I learned on..
The reason I use mil== the dude with the $2K weather station in my caulk is calling out wind corrections in mil!
I only have to come up 1mil vs 64424 clicks on MOA, which in PRS, makes a difference when adjusting for yardage . It about the same clicks but double the whole numbers and less of them, which is easier to deal with under pressure.

About the only thing I've figured out is maybe all the really high-end scopes that are made in Europe use mil only for a while and mil "dot" reticles came out earlier to use for range est.

Easy Math for yards and bullet drop or est. distance:
1 MOA @ 100 yards equals 1 inch
1 Mil @ 100 meters equals 10 centimeters

Harder Math:
1 mil @ 100 yards = 3.6 in

Adjustments:
.10 mil = .36 in
1/4 MOA = .25 in
 
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Huskydriver

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Yes, bringing this up again because I can never get a real answer, even during a match with the top shooters. I know this is not really that big of a deal with calculator and all. What is even more odd, I have watched videos on people not in the US doing reviews on certain items and they are using MOA.

Just like stirring the POT..

Why do we use mil if all the targets are in yards. I consider myself "good" at math, but solving equations with less variables seems to be easier.

"Reasons" I've heard for Mil
They are in tenths.. that would be great if you were using meters
Mil uses whole numbers instead of factions.. really? Not after you do the math
It's what the military snipers use.. Being a vet, military uses meters
It's what I learned on..
The reason I use mil== the dude with the $2K weather station in my caulk is calling out wind corrections in mil!

About the only thing I've figured out is maybe all the really high-end scopes that are made in Europe use mil only for a while.

Easy Math for yards and bullet drop or est. distance:
1 MOA @ 100 yards equals 1 inch
1 Mil @ 100 meters equals 1 centimeter

Harder Math:
1 mil @ 100 yards = 3.6 in

Adjustments:
.10 mil = .36 in
1/4 MOA = .25 in

The linear unit matters 0

When you miss, you measure the miss with the reticle then adjust your turret or holdover the corresponding amount in the reticle.

Why do you need to know yards and meters and not use the units your scope is calibrated in?

And wtf do you mean all the targets are yards?

The military uses mils not because they use meters but because.....newsflash.....mils is the language of indirect fires
 
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TriggerJerk!

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    1. Rangefinder works in meters.
    2. Yards x 0.9144 = Meters
    3. 1 MRAD = 100 cm @ 1000m
    4. 1 MRAD = 50 cm @ 500m
    5. 0.1 MRAD = 10cm @ 1000m
    6. 0.1 MRAD = 5cm @ 500m
    7. 1 MRAD = 3.438 MOA
    No magic. The math just works easy for SI units (i.e, divide range by 10 or 100 to get linear span per unit at desired range in MRAD or 0.1 MRAD respectively). Just seems easy to convert cubits, yards, or furlongs to meters and go from there.

    I generally range all targets and sketch the field out of habit. Use whatever works for you. Most of the time we are all just measuring in scope units (angular units, either mil or moa) and either multiplying or dividing by 3.4 (i.e, conversion factor for mils to moa).

    Not vudoo. Just algebra with units.
     
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    TriggerJerk!

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    I think units and conversions are a frequent conversation/debate because most people don’t spend their days dealing with unit conversions. Those of us who do don’t seem to care. Those who don’t seem to get stirred up because they haven’t memorized the various equations and conversion factors.

    Again, familiarity not vudoo. And life is too short to worry about it.
     

    clcustom1911

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    When you call corrections for your shooters in whatever angular unit of measurement they use in their scope:

    MOA you say "right point 25, up point 5"

    In mils you say "right point 2, up point 5"

    Has nothing to do with yards, meters, inches, centimeters, etc.

    If you tell someone to come right 9 inches or 15 centimeters, and the target is 627 yards away,, they have to do math for the corresponding number of clicks in their scope to equal that about of linear measurement at that yardage to get the impact. Stupid, and time wasting when you need to get that follow-up shot done right now, right now. Not right now, do math, right now.

    This is why I have FFP mil scopes and a FFP mil reticle spotting scope for long distance stuff so anyone who spots for me can call corrections in mils. Plus with FFP scopes my turret adjustments match the reticle subtentions at all magnifications.
     
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    chickon1

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    When you call corrections for your shooters in whatever angular unit of measurement they use in their scope:

    MOA you say "right point 25, up point 5"

    In mils you say "right point 2, up point 5"

    Has nothing to do with yards, meters, inches, centimeters, etc.

    If you tell someone to come right 9 inches or 15 centimeters, and the target is 627 yards away,, they have to do math for the corresponding number of clicks in their scope to equal that about of linear measurement at that yardage to get the impact. Stupid, and time wasting when you need to get that follow-up shot done right now, right now. Not right now, do math, right now.

    This is why I have FFP mil scopes and a FFP mil reticle spotting scope for long distance stuff so anyone who spots for me can call corrections in mils. Plus with FFP scopes my turret adjustments match the reticle subtentions at all magnifications.
    I forgot to add this one.
     

    chickon1

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    What do Moa and Mil have to do with yards or meters?
    mil is based off the thousandth of a radian. kind of like the metric system.. mil is in the name..

    See how easy this is?
    4 inch @ 400 yds = 1 MOA so if I am 2 inches low 1/2 moa adjustment
    5 inch @ 500 yds = 1 MOA so if I am 2 inches low 1/4 moa adjustment

    14.4 inch @ 400 yds = 1 Mil
    18 inch @ 500 yds = 1 Mil

    Watch this guy he breaks it down pretty good.


    Then watch the math for this one.



     
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    Gee Kay

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    how many yards is that??? Mainly why most hunters use MOA.
    ffp & mils with guestimation of distance at night alone without a rangefinder

    longest headshot just after midnight, gps tape measure said it was about 190m

    the 3 stooges, top and bottom were 230m-240m, the one in the middle was 70m-80m. top was walking L to R, bottom was running away between 2 trees. middle just walked out fell down. they were all the similar size, possibly from the same litter. went back to the property during the day and ranged the distances as approximates from where i was standing.

    mils vs moa :ROFLMAO:

    IMG_20200131_010602.jpg

    IMG20200310235148.jpg
     

    chickon1

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    Asks question.... argues with answer. Makes one wonder.
    More of a opinionated statement than a question.. I'm just wondering if there is anyone out there that has the same thought process as I do for self validation, which in public forums rarely ever happens! I'm simply looking at the numbers and how easy it is to get from inches, which is the measurement most of us use.. I have never heard someone say, you hit about 48cm low.
     
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    clcustom1911

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    mil is based off the thousandth of a radian. kind of like the metric system.. mil is in the name..

    See how easy this is?
    4 inch @ 400 yds = 1 MOA so if I am 2 inches low 1/2 moa adjustment
    5 inch @ 500 yds = 1 MOA so if I am 2 inches low 1/4 moa adjustment

    14.4 inch @ 400 yds = 1 Mil
    18 inch @ 500 yds = 1 Mil

    Watch this guy he breaks it down pretty good.


    Then watch the math for this one.



    Soooo... what's your question? You ask a question, multiple people give you answers, and you just copy and paste stuff you found onbthe internet like it hasn't been posted here before. 🤔

    You're still stuck on this inches @ yards thing. It's cool for range estimates with objects of known size, or very closely guessed sized targets and either mil or moa reticle will allow you to accomplish that range estimation.

    It's like overlaying two different optical comparators with different units of measure onto an object. The object is the same, the length is the same, the measured number is different. Which one is right or wrong, better or worse, more accurate?

    Neither. It's just a different unit of measurement. Whether you are making corrections in mils or moa is inconsequential. Stop thinking in inches and linear (distance) units of measurement. It angular. Because circles and shit.

    Your argument is like saying why doesn't one foot equal one pound? It doesn't, and never will because they are different units of measurement
     
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    clcustom1911

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    More of a opinionated statement than a question.. I'm just wondering if there is anyone out there that has the same thought process as I do for self validation, which in public forums rarely ever happens! I'm simply looking at the numbers and how easy it is to get from inches, which is the measurement most of us use.. I have never heard someone say, you hit about 48cm low.
    Correct, nobody should ever be giving corrections in linear units of measurement, inches or cm, if they know what they are talking about.
     

    chickon1

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    Soooo... what's your question? You ask a question, multiple people give you answers, and you just copy and paste stuff you found onbthe internet like it hasn't been posted here before. 🤔

    You're still stuck on this inches @ yards thing. It's cool for range estimates with objects of known size, or very closely guessed sized targets and either mil or moa reticle will allow you to accomplish that range estimation.

    It's like overlaying two different optical comparators with different units of measure onto an object. The object is the same, the length is the same, the measured number is different. Which one is right or wrong, better or worse, more accurate?

    Neither. It's just a different unit of measurement. Whether you are making corrections in mils or moa is inconsequential. Stop thinking in inches and linear (distance) units of measurement. It angular. Because circles and shit.

    Your argument is like saying why doesn't one foot equal one pound? It doesn't, and never will because they are different units of measurement
    Ok.. I guess I have completely lost people on this one. It is easier to use MOA than Mil since MOA equals close to whole numbers in inches and equals the same whole numbers at the corresponding yardage. Or maybe not.. maybe people like converting mil to corresponding yardage. Who am I to say what is easier or not.

    My argument is like saying..
    I have 8 oz in a cup.. how many oz are in 1/2 a cup?
    vs
    I have 8 oz in a cup.. how many oz are in a liter?
     
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    TacticalDillhole

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    Mils are the present and the future. That’s all I got to say about that. If you like MOA, keep on keeping on. But it won’t be long before scope manufacturers stop producing them
     
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    dirthead1

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    Ok.. I guess I have completely lost people on this one. It is easier to use MOA than Mil since MOA equals close to whole numbers in inches and equals the same whole numbers at the corresponding yardage. Or maybe not.. maybe people like converting mil to corresponding yardage. Who am I to say what is easier or not.

    My agreement is like saying..
    I have 8 oz in a cup.. how many oz are in 1/2 a cup?
    vs
    I have 8 oz in a cup.. how many oz are in a liter?
    Please continue to use MOA.
     

    clcustom1911

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    Ok.. I guess I have completely lost people on this one. It is easier to use MOA then Mil since MOA equals close to whole numbers in inches and equals the same whole numbers at the corresponding yardage. Or maybe not.. maybe people like converting mil to corresponding yardage. Who am I to say what is easier or not.
    Okay, no. Stop thinking so much.. it's way simpler than what you are doing to yourself. There is no conversion from anything to anything for anything.

    Let's say you and your spotter have half MOA subtended reticles in your scopes. **For this example** 1 moa is a large hash, half moa is a small hash. Your turrets are half moa turrets so they correspond perfectly with your reticle. Yay. Cool. He's spotting for you. You are shooting at a target X yards away. Distance is not important.

    You take a shot and miss. He sees the splash and says, "hey that was 3 hash marks low and 2 hashes left, so come up 3 hashes and right 2 hashes."

    You take your turrets and adjust 3 clicks up and 2 right for the corresponding corrections and take take shot. DING. Hit. Yay. Awesome.

    If you switch the above with "mil" instead of MOA.... it's the same shit. There is no need whatsoever to convert anything from inches to moa or mils or whatever.

    Now, if you're using MOA and everyone else is using mils because @TheHorta Is your best friend, then, well I don't know what to tell you. If someone gives you a correction in mil, multiply it by a factor of 3 and you should be close enough for government work.
     

    acourvil

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    One thing that always bugs me is that some folks state a reason for MIL or MOA as “the math is easier.” News Flash: the math is the same. How you think about the math might be different, but using a different unit of measure does not change the math.
     
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    rustyinbend

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    For me it was an easy decision ... all the spotters at the competitions I attend at my local range, make adjustment calls in Mils. Decision made - standardized on Mils. Now I'm used to it, and thinking "3.6 inches per Mil at 100 yards" is just second nature. Pick what works, standardize, and it'll become easy over time.
     
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    TriggerJerk!

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    I gave you why I prefer to use mils, and @clcustom1911 showed you precisely why it really does not matter (i.e., we communicate in angular units).

    The only time we estimate linear distances is for reticle range estimation (or estimating antler size on that monster buck).

    And even then your telling your teammate “I estimated 710 meters” or “OMG that rack is about 58cm wide” or whatever range units you both use (e.g., 23” or 0.0029 furlongs 🙂).

    But you are most likely going to just tell them “use 5mils up and 1.5mils right on that target” or moa if that is what your team is using.

    Further, if some one does ask “how big is that target?” you are probably going answer then in angular units...”I measured that one as 2mils” (or in moa if that is what you are both using).

    That is why everyone keeps saying “it does not matter”. We communicate in angular units when spotting and shooting to keep it as simple and fast as possible.
     

    chickon1

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    @lowlight made a article on this last year. You should read it.

    I did read this and the pros and cons are way off. Complete missing the math calculations just like all of you do.. probably because none of you do the actual math in your head. If you never tried doing this, then I understand why you don't understand.

    I can do both mil and moa in my head for distance est and target missing, the point I'm making is it "should" be easier for people to calculate MOA in their head vs mil due to familiarity to inches and the way MOA increases consecutively by 1in with yardage

    I'm just a computer science engineer, what do I know about how math works.
     
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    308pirate

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    Yes, bringing this up again because I can never get a real answer, even during a match with the top shooters. I know this is not really that big of a deal with calculator and all. What is even more odd, I have watched videos on people not in the US doing reviews on certain items and they are using MOA.

    Just like stirring the POT..

    Why do we use mil if all the targets are in yards. I consider myself "good" at math, but solving equations with less variables seems to be easier.

    "Reasons" I've heard for Mil
    They are in tenths.. that would be great if you were using meters
    Mil uses whole numbers instead of factions.. really? Not after you do the math
    It's what the military snipers use.. Being a vet, military uses meters
    It's what I learned on..
    The reason I use mil== the dude with the $2K weather station in my caulk is calling out wind corrections in mil!

    About the only thing I've figured out is maybe all the really high-end scopes that are made in Europe use mil only for a while and mil "dot" reticles came out earlier to use for range est.

    Easy Math for yards and bullet drop or est. distance:
    1 MOA @ 100 yards equals 1 inch
    1 Mil @ 100 meters equals 10 centimeters

    Harder Math:
    1 mil @ 100 yards = 3.6 in

    Adjustments:
    .10 mil = .36 in
    1/4 MOA = .25 in

    giphy.gif
     

    308pirate

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    mil is based off the thousandth of a radian. kind of like the metric system.. mil is in the name..

    See how easy this is?
    4 inch @ 400 yds = 1 MOA so if I am 2 inches low 1/2 moa adjustment
    5 inch @ 500 yds = 1 MOA so if I am 2 inches low 1/4 moa adjustment

    14.4 inch @ 400 yds = 1 Mil
    18 inch @ 500 yds = 1 Mil

    Watch this guy he breaks it down pretty good.


    Then watch the math for this one.




    Do you think you're teaching us anything?

    Because you're not
     

    308pirate

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    I did read this and the pros and cons are way off. Complete missing the math calculations just like all of you do.. probably because none of you do the actual math in your head. If you never tried doing this, then I understand why you don't understand.

    I can do both mil and moa in my head for distance est and target missing, the point I'm making is it "should" be easier for people to calculate MOA in their head vs mil due to familiarity to inches and the way MOA increases consecutively by 1in with yardage

    I'm just a computer science engineer, what do I know about how math works.

    You're an idiot who has no idea or concept of the practical applications of any of this.

    Or a troll. In which case you should get a vacation.
     
    Last edited:

    308pirate

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    One thing that always bugs me is that some folks state a reason for MIL or MOA as “the math is easier.” News Flash: the math is the same. How you think about the math might be different, but using a different unit of measure does not change the math.

    Newsflash: math is not necessary AT ALL

    My dope's in mils. The reticle is divided in mils. The turrets adjust in increments of a mil.

    Why the fuck would I do any conversion math?