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Mosin-Nagant . . .

Killer Spade 13

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jun 28, 2011
1,404
14
74
Roswell, Ga.
OK, I'm posting this here because so many people have gotten the hots for the MN after seeing the movie "Enemy at the Door" or what the heck it was.

The manager of the store at which I work part time has one. 1942 vintage. He's been dying to shoot it for years. Take him down to the hunting club range. Can't even hit a "Garage Sale" placard at 25 meters with the sight set on 100m.

Don't know if it's the ammo, the rifle or both. Bless his heart, he was so deflated with his expectations. Now this is shooting with iron sights and some old ammunition that have cases of an olive drab color.

The frowns were changed to smiles when they started shooting my build, however.

Really, this thing must be shooting 2 feet high at 100m with the sight set at the 100m mark.

Ya get what ya pay for. . .
 
Re: Mosin-Nagant . . .

Hitting an 8" plate at 200yds was pretty easy with my old mosin with irons and milsurp ammo. Then I chopped it up and sporterized it, added a scope etc. After that it would shoot right at 1 MOA.

Some shoot well, some dont.
 
Re: Mosin-Nagant . . .

The MN were sighted for 300m, although there is no exact quote in a manual. The cheapest and easiest bubba fix is a piece of heat shrink tubing over the front sight post, then trim until you are content. There is also a service to replace the post with one of variable height or buy another sight outright. http://www.smith-sights.com/
 
Re: Mosin-Nagant . . .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Killer Spade 13</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK, I'm posting this here because so many people have gotten the hots for the MN after seeing the movie "Enemy at the Door" or what the heck it was.

The manager of the store at which I work part time has one. 1942 vintage. He's been dying to shoot it for years. Take him down to the hunting club range. Can't even hit a "Garage Sale" placard at 25 meters with the sight set on 100m.

Don't know if it's the ammo, the rifle or both. Bless his heart, he was so deflated with his expectations. Now this is shooting with iron sights and some old ammunition that have cases of an olive drab color.

The frowns were changed to smiles when they started shooting build, however.

Really, this thing must be shooting 2 feet high at 100m with the sight set at the 100m mark.

Ya get what ya pay for. . . </div></div>
Just curious; are you making a statement, or looking for advice? That would be the worst shooting Mosin I've ever heard of, by a long shot. Could be several factors involved, but to not be able to hit a sign that size at 25 meters is a sign of something seriously wrong and I don't think it's the design of the rifle or even the ammunition.
 
Re: Mosin-Nagant . . .

What Joop said...
Did it have a bore like a sewer pipe?

They can, and do, shoot. Done some modifications to mine, and I have no problems (as I did this past weekend) banging a 10" plate at 565 yards with it. Got a few hundred bucks tied up in it, without the optic. I think I got more, than what I paid for...
 
Re: Mosin-Nagant . . .

Don't change the sights.

First find out exactly how high it is at 100 yards when set on the 100 mark.

Now take off the rear sight (one pin that holds the ladder sight on the sight base, allowing it to come up as the sliding part slides on the ladder)

Turn the sight over. Take your measurements from the target. Mine was 8 inches high 100 yards.

Flip the sight over and mill/file/grind .0061 per off per inch you are high.

Example, as mentioned mine was 8 inches. 8 X .0061 is .0488. I milled .0488 off the bottom of the sight, put it back on the rifle and it was right on at 100, when on the 200 marks it was on a 200 yards, 300 at 300 yards, 400 at 400 yards (400 is as far as my personal range goes), No reason to believe it wont be on the rest of the ladder.

The windage is taken care of by moving the front sight, again .0061 per 1 inch at 100 yards.

When you put the sight back on the rifle, you can't tell it was modified. THIS IS A LEGAL FIX IN KEEPING THE RIFLE AS-ISSUED PER CMP-GSM RULES.

When you grind/mill/file the bottom of the rear sight, take care in keeping it straight, done want your sight setting cockeyed on the rifle.
 
Re: Mosin-Nagant . . .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joop</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Killer Spade 13</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK, I'm posting this here because so many people have gotten the hots for the MN after seeing the movie "Enemy at the Door" or what the heck it was.

The manager of the store at which I work part time has one. 1942 vintage. He's been dying to shoot it for years. Take him down to the hunting club range. Can't even hit a "Garage Sale" placard at 25 meters with the sight set on 100m.

Don't know if it's the ammo, the rifle or both. Bless his heart, he was so deflated with his expectations. Now this is shooting with iron sights and some old ammunition that have cases of an olive drab color.

The frowns were changed to smiles when they started shooting build, however.

Really, this thing must be shooting 2 feet high at 100m with the sight set at the 100m mark.

Ya get what ya pay for. . . </div></div>
Just curious; are you making a statement, or looking for advice? That would be the worst shooting Mosin I've ever heard of, by a long shot. Could be several factors involved, but to not be able to hit a sign that size at 25 meters is a sign of something seriously wrong and I don't think it's the design of the rifle or even the ammunition. </div></div>

When "store manager" having no practical shooting time gets hold of MN, may it be possibly considered as "something seriously wrong"?
 
Re: Mosin-Nagant . . .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kortik</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joop</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Killer Spade 13</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK, I'm posting this here because so many people have gotten the hots for the MN after seeing the movie "Enemy at the Door" or what the heck it was.

The manager of the store at which I work part time has one. 1942 vintage. He's been dying to shoot it for years. Take him down to the hunting club range. Can't even hit a "Garage Sale" placard at 25 meters with the sight set on 100m.

Don't know if it's the ammo, the rifle or both. Bless his heart, he was so deflated with his expectations. Now this is shooting with iron sights and some old ammunition that have cases of an olive drab color.

The frowns were changed to smiles when they started shooting build, however.

Really, this thing must be shooting 2 feet high at 100m with the sight set at the 100m mark.

Ya get what ya pay for. . . </div></div>
Just curious; are you making a statement, or looking for advice? That would be the worst shooting Mosin I've ever heard of, by a long shot. Could be several factors involved, but to not be able to hit a sign that size at 25 meters is a sign of something seriously wrong and I don't think it's the design of the rifle or even the ammunition. </div></div>

When "store manager" having no practical shooting time gets hold of MN, may it be possibly considered as "something seriously wrong"?
</div></div>
It could be, but I wasn't trying to suggest that. I don't know the shooter's general level of experience or proficiency, so I would leave that out of the equation, for now.

The first thing I would check, would be the bore, as mentioned. Any surplus rifle is susceptible to damage from corrosion, improper cleaning methods, or it could just be worn out, plain and simple. Also, Mosins are commonly found with counterbored muzzles. Generally, this isn't an issue, but I have seen a couple that were messed up and not the best shooters, as a result. By "messed up and not the best shooters", I'm talking 4-5 inch groups at 100 yards, which is about double what I would consider "average" for these guns, if properly assembled.

Next, I would check the action screws. This is another common problem with many milsurps, especially Mosins. If the gun sat in a safe for several years, I can pretty much guarantee that the action screws aren't as tight as they should be. I would tighten them (front one first), then fire a five round group and check them again. You'll likely be able to get a little more out of them once the action is seated.

After that, I would be looking at the trigger. Again, most of the refurbs (assuming this one is a refurb, but probably shouldn't ASSume!) have less than stellar triggers. These guns were thrown together from parts with little/no attention to fine tuning like they would have had, originally. The triggers/sears are easy to improve and this topic has been discussed here before, as well as a million other places on the net.

As for the sights, most of these were sighted with the bayonet fixed, which will shift the POI, especially in the horizontal. It's common for them to shoot to the right when it's not attached. I would drift the front sight to correct this, unless you plan on shooting with the bayonet all the time. The elevation can vary. Most, but not all, will shoot high and that will vary from rifle to rifle and, of course, with various types/origins of ammo.

I wouldn't dream of grinding anything until all the above has been sorted out. Even then, unless I knew that I was going to be shooting a specific lot of ammo for the rest of the rifle's life, I wouldn't even think of grinding anything. Usually, I can use a six o'clock hold at 100m and, possibly, depending on the load, a center hold out to about 300m. Or, just put the rear sight up to 3 and go back to the 6 o'clock hold, again. I just had a '43 Izhevsk out the other day and was using this method on water jugs and even clay pigeons at 240 yards, offhand. From the bench, I can hit jugs at 400 yards without too much trouble and all of this using surplus Russian light ball. However, I shoot them on a regular basis, so YMMV.

Yeah, you get what you pay for....and so much more! But, like pretty much any other rifle, unless you do a little research first, you may not be aware of the quirks of that system. I have an M1 Garand that was nothing special (read: horrible) when I first shot it. Maybe it was junk, too? Nope. I took the time to learn about it and practice with it and now it shoots 2 MOA or better with pretty much anything I feed it. The Mosin is no different.
 
Re: Mosin-Nagant . . .

So, your store manager got a "unique" MN. Seems like other MNs owned by others do shoot all right, including my own 5 rifles. It's now evident as posted that both of - your boss, store manager and you, can not hit anything with MN at 25 yards. So, what is exactly the point you're trying to make?


 
Re: Mosin-Nagant . . .

Joop, I like your above post about the Mosins. I agree with pretty much everything you said here, because I have found what you said to be the case with mine.

I never really realized, at first anyways, that the gun was designed to shoot with a 6 O'Clock hold, then I came across an article once that stated this.

Also, your right about the bayonet part. Both of my M91/30's shot about three to four inches to the right, which made me drift the front sight accordingly. Funny why the Russians would have made a point of marksmanship with the bayonet on!
 
Re: Mosin-Nagant . . .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: longguntoter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...Funny why the Russians would have made a point of marksmanship with the bayonet on! </div></div>

Your "funny" remark should be probably considered limited to your specific circumstances. In Russia, marksmenship was a very serious business, so people who could shoot well were moved to "snipers" category and issued scoped MNs, which typically were not intented for use with bayonets. See history of WWII - number of snipers in Russia exceeded all other snipers in all other armies combined... On the other hand, common rank and file dudes, mostly from the country side, comprising bulk of army, were "instructed" to put a fear into the enemy by charging with the bayo attached. It was much more common practice in WWI than in WWII, but traditions of bayonet charges were historically strong in the russian military until some time in the past.

BTW, all of my 91/30s do not have an issue shooting to the side w/o bayonets as you've mentioned, but for M44, it's true.
 
Re: Mosin-Nagant . . .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
It could be, but I wasn't trying to suggest that. I don't know the shooter's general level of experience or proficiency, so I would leave that out of the equation, for now.

The first thing I would check, would be the bore, as mentioned. Any surplus rifle is susceptible to damage from corrosion, improper cleaning methods, or it could just be worn out, plain and simple. Also, Mosins are commonly found with counterbored muzzles. Generally, this isn't an issue, but I have seen a couple that were messed up and not the best shooters, as a result. By "messed up and not the best shooters", I'm talking 4-5 inch groups at 100 yards, which is about double what I would consider "average" for these guns, if properly assembled.

Next, I would check the action screws. This is another common problem with many milsurps, especially Mosins. If the gun sat in a safe for several years, I can pretty much guarantee that the action screws aren't as tight as they should be. I would tighten them (front one first), then fire a five round group and check them again. You'll likely be able to get a little more out of them once the action is seated.

After that, I would be looking at the trigger. Again, most of the refurbs (assuming this one is a refurb, but probably shouldn't ASSume!) have less than stellar triggers. These guns were thrown together from parts with little/no attention to fine tuning like they would have had, originally. The triggers/sears are easy to improve and this topic has been discussed here before, as well as a million other places on the net.

As for the sights, most of these were sighted with the bayonet fixed, which will shift the POI, especially in the horizontal. It's common for them to shoot to the right when it's not attached. I would drift the front sight to correct this, unless you plan on shooting with the bayonet all the time. The elevation can vary. Most, but not all, will shoot high and that will vary from rifle to rifle and, of course, with various types/origins of ammo.

I wouldn't dream of grinding anything until all the above has been sorted out. Even then, unless I knew that I was going to be shooting a specific lot of ammo for the rest of the rifle's life, I wouldn't even think of grinding anything. Usually, I can use a six o'clock hold at 100m and, possibly, depending on the load, a center hold out to about 300m. Or, just put the rear sight up to 3 and go back to the 6 o'clock hold, again. I just had a '43 Izhevsk out the other day and was using this method on water jugs and even clay pigeons at 240 yards, offhand. From the bench, I can hit jugs at 400 yards without too much trouble and all of this using surplus Russian light ball. However, I shoot them on a regular basis, so YMMV.

Yeah, you get what you pay for....and so much more! But, like pretty much any other rifle, unless you do a little research first, you may not be aware of the quirks of that system. I have an M1 Garand that was nothing special (read: horrible) when I first shot it. Maybe it was junk, too? Nope. I took the time to learn about it and practice with it and now it shoots 2 MOA or better with pretty much anything I feed it. The Mosin is no different. </div></div>

Joop knows of what he speaks
 
Re: Mosin-Nagant . . .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Killer Spade 13</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I could not hit a garage sale sign at 25 meters with this rifle.

I shot on the University of Georgia rifle team.

Shot expert in qualification with M-14, M-16 and pistol.

It's the rifle. </div></div>

Could very well be, keep in mind it's an old milsurp.

The ones I've bought have not been for collecting, even though I have an 03 FFL. I like to shoot them...and I make sure with the 91/30's that I buy re-arsenaled Mosins.

These were gone through at the arsenals before being dunked in a barrel of cosmoline. I've bought four of them, all with great blueing and bores.

Regardless of whether the sights are "on", shooting to the same POA should produce results wherever the hits end up. Listen to Joop, check what he suggested.

Some are just plain shot-out, or the bores were not cleaned and are corroded beyond belief. Have you eyeballed the bore?

If it comes down to it, hang it on the wall, and invest $100 in a re-arsenaled one...

Most fun you can have for the money.