Lidar can provide direction as well.
- Thread starter NoLegs24
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Lidar can provide direction as well.
I knew this technology was on the horizon, but hoped it would come from another manufacturer. Interesting that Trijicon came to the table with it. Very unique and great for the sport, but I will wait until the technology makes it into a set of LRF binos without being too large. Definitely something to watch.
Update on specs: this was all I could get out of the Trijicon guys. Maybe someone else had better luck.
Ventus
45 oz
“Sub mil” beam divergence (idk wtf that means but that’s the best they were willing to offer)
5k non reflective (won’t comment on reflective range)
Standard Trijicon warranty
They “may” explore options to BT to a kestrel but at this time only their app for ballistics. The app actually doesn’t look bad.
Ventus
45 oz
“Sub mil” beam divergence (idk wtf that means but that’s the best they were willing to offer)
5k non reflective (won’t comment on reflective range)
Standard Trijicon warranty
They “may” explore options to BT to a kestrel but at this time only their app for ballistics. The app actually doesn’t look bad.
Interesting...I would have thought it would have been micro-milradian divergence....
Just re-read through this thread, and thought about it a bit more after seeing the (non-working) unit at SHOT.
I have to agree with @Dthomas3523 on his older post. This thing could be amazing for Mil/LE and for training. But I really do hope these will not be allowed at your every-weekend club series or 2-day PRS match. I can’t help but think the usage of these would further divide the pros and the amateurs, and increase the feeling of a financially unreachable gear race.
Let’s be honest, this sport (hobby) is expensive, yet there are plenty of guys for which $8k is a drop in the bucket on their annual shooting budget. Or it’s conceivable that sponsored teams could pony up for one unit to be shared across their shooters.
I’m not against technology, and I think this unit is pretty dang cool. But it’s not the same as a gamer plate or a new high BC bullet. I always thought the ability to read wind was what really separated the top shooters. If you can walk up while you’re on deck, press a button, and get the wind to within +/- 1 MPH, then that takes all the fun out of it for me. And I would imagine it would leave newer shooters feeling shafted as well.
I have to agree with @Dthomas3523 on his older post. This thing could be amazing for Mil/LE and for training. But I really do hope these will not be allowed at your every-weekend club series or 2-day PRS match. I can’t help but think the usage of these would further divide the pros and the amateurs, and increase the feeling of a financially unreachable gear race.
Let’s be honest, this sport (hobby) is expensive, yet there are plenty of guys for which $8k is a drop in the bucket on their annual shooting budget. Or it’s conceivable that sponsored teams could pony up for one unit to be shared across their shooters.
I’m not against technology, and I think this unit is pretty dang cool. But it’s not the same as a gamer plate or a new high BC bullet. I always thought the ability to read wind was what really separated the top shooters. If you can walk up while you’re on deck, press a button, and get the wind to within +/- 1 MPH, then that takes all the fun out of it for me. And I would imagine it would leave newer shooters feeling shafted as well.
We are definitely starting to get to a point where it can be a gear race. Typically I’m not a believer in that term, but some products are coming out that are getting into that area.
Another one is the 3 leg ckyepod.
Going to have to start putting height restrictions on bipods and no devices that read wind anywhere other than the shooter. Other things as they arise.
Otherwise, anyone who can’t afford a $1k bipod or am $8k lidar is going to be at a huge disadvantage.
I don’t see any problem with this showing up at matches, there is already such a massive gap between the pros and recreational shooter that to me it seems a non issue. The amount of time and money they have to hone their skills one more tool/toy wiz bang is not going to make a difference. They are a different class of shooters. I’ve shot on sporting clays courses with the best of the best, Wendell Cherry, John Kruger Skeet ranges with guys like Todd Bender and the pros still smoked all the non pro guys, they don’t have any extra gear than I did. I bet if you give Jerry Miculek a out of the box Taurus revolver and you get the best tuned korth and go head to head he wins every single time.
Do you shoot PRS style competitions? I think your examples have nothing to do with what I'm talking about. Speed shooting and clays cannot be "won" with a device that reads wind. But a PRS competition could.
The gun/optic/accessories that a PRS "pro" has can easily be purchased by a regular Joe. Plus there's really not that much difference between a custom build or an AI or an RPR if you're talking about performance downrange. But if you take two "pros" both capable of shooting a 100% hit percentage in a zero wind environment, the winner will come down to wind reading and not making mental mistakes.
And if you've ever beaten a fellow regular Joe at a PRS match because you could read the wind better than him, well have fun when that guy whoops your ass because he could afford a LIDAR and you couldn't. That's what I'm getting at. I always thought wind reading was the great equalizer - assuming your shooting fundamentals are the same. I'm not complaining about getting beaten by shooters that are straight up better than me, that happens at almost every match I shoot. But comparing apples to apples shooters, a LIDAR would give an advantage to the shooter that can afford it.
Do you think it would be fair to allow the use of this at a 600 yd F-Class match? Would a shooter that measures the wind before every shot not have an advantage over someone reading the flags? What about a 22 ELR match? Those are literally laying down prone, you could argue almost everyone there has the same trigger-pulling skill. But it comes down to wind...
I'll give you another example of gear vs talent since you don't like my shotgun sports analogy. 3D archery, no range finders no wind readers, binoculars of no more than 8x, top of the line equipment available to most everyone, again the pros smoke the average Joe's with score and X's, you need to learn to judge wind range, terrain and so on, the difference is the pros are just plain harder working to get better. If you have the best Nike shoes could you beat Usain Bolt in a race? Nope bet not he's just in a different class, same as the pro shooters vs regular Joe's.
What's funny is you're making my point for me, especially by talking about a sport that doesn't allow special equipment. I agree, you need to learn to read the wind and all the things that come along with it. But now give someone a LIDAR and they don't have to do that to be a better wind reader than someone that put in the years of work.
I think everyone needs to calm down. It's going to be awhile until we start to see these with any frequency, and it still doesn't teach fundamentals (which trumps technology and wind calling). If you can't pull the trigger consistently, it doesn't matter what gear or how much practice at wind calling you have, you'll still suck.
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I would bet you could give 98% of the shooters out there all the equipment in the world and they still can't compete against the big names, if you laid behind the same gear same everything, could you beat or even hang with Paul Phillips? ( king of 2 mile) yes? No? I sure the heck can't. If you gave every average Joe a laser range finder and not Levi Morgan, you think they will beat him in a 3D tournament, nope. You seem to be the IROC racing type guy, everyone should have to play with the same toy. Not me bring the latetest and greatest gadget.
as someone who can hang with the big names, ill tell you youre not completely getting the point
you give a few guys in the top tier a 500 yd wind advantage (assuming it works accurate enough), and good luck to everyone who doesnt have one
in matches where the wind is below 10 mph, it wont matter much...but if its blowing 15+, it would be a huge advantage
Once the technology revolves and let’s say it will read to 1k yds.
Take any top shooter you want and he has to read wind with kestrel and senses/experience.
Take a second tier shooter who has good fundamentals but isn’t that good at reading wind. He gets the lidar. Shooter is even on skill level with the top shooter, just only lacks wind reading skills.
1 shot each. Who do you put your money on?
Next Scenario
Pick any two top shooters. One gets a $1000 3 leg bipod, and the other doesn’t.
Blind stage. Go into a room filled with items to build a position. Barrel must be over top of an obstacle that is 36” tall.
Who do you think has a big advantage here?
Take any two shooters of equal skill.
I don’t care if it’s the top 2 prs shooters in the country or the worst 2 or anywhere in between. Just take two with the same skill level.
Give one the trijicon on a 15+ mph day.
I know who my money will be on.
I don’t care if it’s the top 2 prs shooters in the country or the worst 2 or anywhere in between. Just take two with the same skill level.
Give one the trijicon on a 15+ mph day.
I know who my money will be on.
I am. In my experience shooting around pro shooters whether it idpa, ipsc, 3D, so on and the pros are just in another league, hence they are the pros, the point I'm trying to make is if you don't put in the effort to be the best it doesn't matter how good your gear is, it's only going to be as good the operator.
I sort of see the thing as a slight burden in a gusty situation. You’ll get an average, or you’ll fire it during the gust and get a peak reading. Lull, low reading.
Point being can a single shooter get back on the rifle quick enough for that data to matter? Perhaps. Depends how many readings were shot and spaced out.
Team event, oh yeah... Bring it.
Point being can a single shooter get back on the rifle quick enough for that data to matter? Perhaps. Depends how many readings were shot and spaced out.
Team event, oh yeah... Bring it.
Ummm, wtf are you talking about?
The only people that will have them are people that can spend $8-10k
this is how i feel about it
unless someone is shooting the lidar and feeding data on every shot, the shooter will still have to be able to self spot and correct on the fly...its not always gusty tho, and sometimes the first call holds til youre done
Holy shit dude. Your reading comprehension is borderline short bus.
The point everyone is making is that it gives an advantage via money and pressing a button.
It’s literally the same as taking the two best hitters in the mlb and giving one an aluminum bat.
Two best nascar drivers and giving one a 10mph faster car.
It also sends the data to an app on your phone.
So in theory, you could set it up on a tripod and have it feeding live data to a phone/heads up display.
I’m in the best marksman should win school. Not the pay for a huge advantage school.
Not arguing just asking, Where do you want to see the technology stop? What would you like to see? No rangefinders no kestrels? Honestly just curious, I wonder if some of the older shooters remember when those came out if it was as bad as this seems to be?
Been shooting for 30yrs. I’ve seen things chamge
The technology needs to be limited in competition at the point where something similar is not available to everyone. Until now, that hasn’t been the case.
Someone might buy an atlas bipod, but you could still hang with them with a Harris.
Someone could buy a 5700 elite. But you can buy a weatherflow meter and use an app on phone.
Someone can buy and RRS, but you can get a leofoto.
A guy with a Ruger RPR can hang with someone with
You can’t go out and buy a lidar or a 4ft bipod without spending a ton of cash.
So, when the lidar technology reaches a point when the average shooter can afford a cheaper version that an keep them competitive, it can be allowed. Until then, it’s literally buying a huge advantage for $10k.
Going back to the aluminum bat.
Let’s say you are in an adult baseball league. Wood bats cost $100 and aluminum bats cost $8,000.
Would you be fine allowing the people that can afford that $8k bat to have that big of an advantage because they are single and make $200k a year and you have 3 kids on $60k a year?
Let’s say you are in an adult baseball league. Wood bats cost $100 and aluminum bats cost $8,000.
Would you be fine allowing the people that can afford that $8k bat to have that big of an advantage because they are single and make $200k a year and you have 3 kids on $60k a year?
I'm not sure someone's income should really come into play with a casual sport, do you?
I mean, this is a game. Very few people are actually making a living shooting this sport, and it's probably not based on their shooting ability.
That’s literally what is happening with $1k ckyepods and $8k wind readers.
It absolutely comes into play.
PRS is literally a casual sport.
I know I'm being cynical, but what happens when the Trijicon Ventus becomes the "official LIDAR of the PRS"? A few big name shooters get sponsored and Trijicon pays the money to be in bed with the PRS, then what?
Yes, I believe if you want something bad enough you will find away to get it. People like Bernie and AOC and Warren want everyone to have the same house, car same school so on and so on. If I guy bust his ass and goes to school to be a doctor should a guy that did nothing to improve himself have the same opportunities? I don't think so.
Yep. We are nearing a point in technology that without limits, a certain class (sponsored, or disposable income) are going to be able to walk away from the rest of the pack.
Apples to oranges. Busting your ass to have a good job doesn’t have anything to do with the sport.
Thats actually one of the worst examples I’ve ever seen.
Oh I hear you, but my point is, someone's income only has minimal impact on what people show up to the match with. Most of the folks I see running the latest and greatest gear are sponsored, or have inside tracks on discounted gear. Granted, some do pay for it out of hide, but let's be honest; the top shooters aren't paying full retail for most of their gear. Many use their certs to discount (or out right sell for money) the cost of their gear. I find it odd, that these are the same crowd that tend to whine about people "buying" their way into the sport. Winning certs over time does the same thing. As they "buy" the next level gear with one cert, that then allows them to win more certs, then buy more gear, and so on. It's the same thing when you get right down to it.
I can foresee a day when there may be an "open class" and a "traditional class"....but I don't think we're there yet. Besides, no one can say with any certainty, how much a game changer this device might be, since very few have even used them yet. Until then, it sounds more like "the sky is falling", rather than factual evidence backed up by real world data.
Like I said, everyone just needs to chill...
I’ve worked with lidar in the past. It’s absolutely going to be a game changer.
Might not be tomorrow or with the ventus. But at some point, it will be.
As do I. Hence my "everyone needs to chill" right now. The tech is still largely untested and unknown how it will react to real world environments. Heh...Christmas tinsel spread around a range could make things interesting....
That's the difference in the pro division and the average Joe division, basically unlimited budget vs not unlimited. When has any non pro shooter non sponsored shooter won any match?
if some wants the lidar bad enough they will find away to get one, they will work some O/T sell,some guns off whatever it takes if they want it bad enough, trijicon will sell it to anyone.
I think what @Dthomas3523 is saying is, these product(s) specifically we're talking about, can buy the user a benefit. But the price is exponentially higher than the typical product purchased to increase hits.
i.e.
A Bartlein barrel isn't $4000 and a Criterion is $300
6GT components don't cost $10/rd while 308 is $1/rd
A Tangent Theta isn't $20,000 while a Razor is $2,000
etc.
And in the end, my personal opinion of "wind is the great equalizer" would in a way be thrown out the window. Which would take A LOT of the fun out of competing in PRS events.
Maybe in 5 or 10 years, 1k yard LIDAR units will be $300 scope mounted kits that literally every single person on the line has. But even then, isn't the challenge of these competitions reading the environmentals better than your peers? What will the personal challenge really be if one can map the wind and not have to use their skills/senses?
i.e.
A Bartlein barrel isn't $4000 and a Criterion is $300
6GT components don't cost $10/rd while 308 is $1/rd
A Tangent Theta isn't $20,000 while a Razor is $2,000
etc.
And in the end, my personal opinion of "wind is the great equalizer" would in a way be thrown out the window. Which would take A LOT of the fun out of competing in PRS events.
Maybe in 5 or 10 years, 1k yard LIDAR units will be $300 scope mounted kits that literally every single person on the line has. But even then, isn't the challenge of these competitions reading the environmentals better than your peers? What will the personal challenge really be if one can map the wind and not have to use their skills/senses?
Non sponsored shooters win matches all the time.
I’m done. Your logic is absolutely horrid.
@MarinePMI I agree that the sky isn't falling yet, and this unit is untested and unknown. But the hype on it is HUGE, and I've already heard things like on the VP Podcast where Vibbert and Pynch said "Oh I can't want to get my hands on this and play around with it."
Know who isn't going to get one to play around with? Pretty much every regular shooter in all the various series and club matches.
Know who isn't going to get one to play around with? Pretty much every regular shooter in all the various series and club matches.
price
Hi,
WOW so this thread turned into a "I hate tech vs I embrace tech".......
I can setup a windcube system that will give the shooting team not only the windspeed and direction but do it at the BULLET FLIGHT PATH along with providing them a toughbook with ballistic program that absorbs that data and spits out a new firing solution!!
BUT guess what.........IF that trigger gets snatched, their cheek comes off/into the stock at wrong time, their support hand pushes bipod/tripod leg at wrong time, etc etc....they still miss the target.
BUT at the same time it allows that shooting team to focus on fundamentals because we damn sure rule out a blown wind call, lolol.
Advancements are coming and there is no stopping them. Within 2 years the allowed MV will either be increased for competitions or those competitions will fade off into the "modern" version of blackpowder competitions because the modern systems will be that far ahead.
Sincerely,
Theis
WOW so this thread turned into a "I hate tech vs I embrace tech".......
I can setup a windcube system that will give the shooting team not only the windspeed and direction but do it at the BULLET FLIGHT PATH along with providing them a toughbook with ballistic program that absorbs that data and spits out a new firing solution!!
BUT guess what.........IF that trigger gets snatched, their cheek comes off/into the stock at wrong time, their support hand pushes bipod/tripod leg at wrong time, etc etc....they still miss the target.
BUT at the same time it allows that shooting team to focus on fundamentals because we damn sure rule out a blown wind call, lolol.
Advancements are coming and there is no stopping them. Within 2 years the allowed MV will either be increased for competitions or those competitions will fade off into the "modern" version of blackpowder competitions because the modern systems will be that far ahead.
Sincerely,
Theis
Yes, the challenge and skill developed over years is what intrigued me to long range shooting.
I'm sure that the military already has better equipment at reading wind.
Will wind calling skills become unnecessary at some point, Idk?
Fundamentals are important but learned much faster than wind calling...
It uses four lasers; think about those stupid Venn diagrams from grade school math...the four will all intersect in the middle, providing more reflected energy. Or think about how electronic targets work: four sensors to collect data allow them to absolutely pinpoint bullet impact.
As for the cost, what are you guys spending on rifles already? This thing is no more expensive than a full custom build with a Nightforce or similar optic.
I posted on this subject in another thread; I thought I would post here as well:
I just joined this site due to the Ventus discussion. My focus is first shot cold bore hits. Anyone can adjust the first shot and hit; that doesn't fascinate me much. And as we all know, the wind is a deal killer when it comes to first round hits. My goal is to hit within five inches of my point of aim out to 800 yards, and within six inches past that. Anything else is a miss. I rarely miss at 800; my hit rate at 1200 is about 75%. I take a long time to estimate the wind, as I will explain below.
I am old enough to remember how range estimation was a skill; I used a custom reticle from Premier, together with a modified Ranging 1000 rangefinder. I would average the two distances; worked fairly well out to 500. Then, on Jul 30, 1993, I bought a Leica Geovid, becoming the first person to buy one in the US. In one fell swoop, my days of estimating distances were over. What used to take five minutes was now instant - and without error.
I see a lot of parallels here to LRF tech. The first one was expensive and heavy, but it was absolutely a game changer. Nothing came to close to it in terms of technology for quite some time (early Bushnell RFs were crap). Time moved on and today we have much more capable devices for a fraction of the cost.
Do I regret paying $4500 for my Geovid back in 93? Hell no - I quickly moved on from range estimation as the biggest issue to inherent rifle accuracy, and then wind. I was hitting at long range while others were waiting for the price to come down.
The way I estimate wind today is very similar to what I did to estimate range back in the day. I rely principally on mirage, normally by using the side parallax on my NF scopes (I know, a spotter situated so I can look thru that the same time I am aiming is better). But on cloudy days, like last week, where the wind was gusting all over the place, there was no mirage. In the desert foliage doesn't blow much and when it does the direction is often hard to identify. I look for what it is doing behind rocks etc to identify direction, and well as use a shock corded wind flag and my hand held anemometer.
Let's face it, holding up an anemometer like a Kestrel (there is nothing magic about the Kestrel's ability to measure wind) is not terribly accurate. At 1200 yards my bullets are flying higher at some points than I can hold it. The wind effect is almost always greater than I measure with an anemometer. Last week, on that cloudy day, I hit 1 MOA left at 800 yards - I held 1.75 MOA right but total drift was 2.75 - or was it? That rifle can shoot 1/2 MOA at 800, so my true drift was anywhere from 2.25 to 3.0 (bullets don't travel in a straight line - half hit to the right of our point of aim, half hit to the left, the distance being a function of your accuracy).
Thus, the first redeeming feature of the Ventus: you can practice wind calls and not have to worry about the impact of rifle accuracy. That itself is huge.
I typically shoot at 1200 and 1300 yards (these are oriented 45 deg from my 800 yard target) during my practice sessions, which I do at least once a week and will do once per day when my Colorado retreat is finally built. But last week, I didn't even bother shooting past 800 - the wind was gusty and constantly shifting. Here is the second thing I think the Ventus will do: if you constantly "zap" the wind and see it moving more than a few miles per hour in a second or two, you know a first round hit at 1200 is going to be lucky, simply due to the impact a nearly 2 second TOF creates in a constantly changing wind.
The Ventus will only measure to 500, but it will extrapolate the effects over 500 past that. Who doesn't think that is better than what you can do without it? Yes, the wind can change after you measure the speed. But I think most of us determine the prevailing condition, calculate the solution, and then fire when that condition is present. What would be cool is if the Ventus can be focused halfway between your target and your position, thus showing mirage. Zap the wind when the prevailing condition exists. Shoot when you see that either in your spotter or with your parallax focused close (spin it back quickly before taking the shot of course).
A lot of you guys apparently think Mr. Fudd is the only one who sees value in the Ventus. Did we ever say that about LRFs? GPS? As for only the affluent being able to buy one, how much do you spend on a rifle build, and how many of those do you have? Hell, I spend more on most hunts than this costs, so for me it is a no brainer. A guy who can afford a G650 is going to get there faster than a guy flying a Super Cub; it might not be fair, but it's life.
Agreed.
I think if you have the cash to spend have at it. This comes up every few years.
I remember when the terrapin showed up and was more than twice as expensive as the current LRFs on the market. Should have created the doomsday scenario you're talking about, but it didn't.
People shared range results with guys who didn't have one or theirs couldn't lase the target.
The new Kestrels will give you a wind call and they're about $650-700 more than ballistic ARC and the little fan. It's not that big a deal.
If I could think of a scenario where a triple pull Ckyepod would have been an advantage last year, I'd have one, still using the original. Most of the time I don't use half of what it's capable of doing because I can get it done with a bag.
There's more to shooting than a wind call and frankly I don't like all these new "match directors" using the position as a way to restrict gear based on their own list of pet peeves. Usually, it's because they aren't creative enough to penalize the gear they don't want people to use with stage design.
Nothing in life is equal, or fair, including shooting steel at long range.
the Ventus is an awesome piece of tech, I don’t know why you wrote a novel talking down to some extremely knowledgable folks who shoot all across the country in every weather condition. They shoot when the shot is required to be taken, not when it’s convenient to them.
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