If military marksmen have to move in the snow, how do you disguise your tracks? Seems impossible to me. If there is some Jedi trick to this that shouldnt be revealed to the public then so be it....
Fieldcraft Moving in the snow
- Thread starter Jig Stick
- Start date
Re: Moving in the snow
I assume they would have to drag something behind them. It would look a little funny seeing a sniper team walk backwards to cover their tracks as they walk.
I assume they would have to drag something behind them. It would look a little funny seeing a sniper team walk backwards to cover their tracks as they walk.
Re: Moving in the snow
You've answered your own question.
You've answered your own question.
Re: Moving in the snow
Real snipers move <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">under</span> the snow.
Real snipers move <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">under</span> the snow.
Re: Moving in the snow
Strap on deer hoofs.
Strap on deer hoofs.
Re: Moving in the snow
lmfao. or bigfoot casts
lmfao. or bigfoot casts
Re: Moving in the snow
I had an old friend track an elk dropping a couple of drops of blood every 20 or
30 feet under 12 inches of fresh snow for miles. I could barely make out the divets
in the snow from the hoof prints and he kept one elk separate from 15 others in the
bunch, and stayed on it everytime they would split. So no, you can't even begin to hide your tracks from someone who knows how to track.
I had an old friend track an elk dropping a couple of drops of blood every 20 or
30 feet under 12 inches of fresh snow for miles. I could barely make out the divets
in the snow from the hoof prints and he kept one elk separate from 15 others in the
bunch, and stayed on it everytime they would split. So no, you can't even begin to hide your tracks from someone who knows how to track.
Re: Moving in the snow
We always moved at night; waited for it to snow; moved single file; doubled backed; camoflaged by drags; moved up and down hill (snake trail); used natural veg to camo movement. Just some ideas.
We always moved at night; waited for it to snow; moved single file; doubled backed; camoflaged by drags; moved up and down hill (snake trail); used natural veg to camo movement. Just some ideas.
Re: Moving in the snow
The main key lies in assessing the conditions before and after the mission and the snow pack type. I also assume you have some say on the timing of the mission.
If the snow is hard and crusty, look for warmer conditions followed by more snow and time your movement appropriately. Even then, it is tough to hide from an experienced tracker or someone with northern hunting experience.
If you have a soft, powdery pack, you increase your chances of hiding your tracks by timing your movement to precede snowfall and/or <span style="font-style: italic">wind</span>. The more of each the better.
A drag is unadvisable unless you have one of the following: a) a very hard pack and it is enough to support your weight without post-holing. Here, wind is also your friend. b) less than an inch of powdery stuff and you have warmer++ weather, a bit more snow, or wind coming. A drag will help the process along in these cases. If you use a drag, do not widen, nor deepen your path by any more than necessary. Total obliteration is not the goal here, you are just looking to help mother nature out and hope that she can do her work before others come along.
Under most other conditions, you really expending a lot of energy for probably no gain by using a drag.
I also like what TRM had to say. If there are more that one of you, walk in each others tracks and be diligent about it. Under powdery conditions, I'll know there was more than one, but most likely not how many. Under firm conditions, I can count usually up to three, but after that, I won't know exactly how many: 3-5, 5-10, but an exact count is hard.
Sun can also be your friend. Under warm sunny days followed by clear cold nights is how you get your hard pack. A series of these and you may be able to stay on top and do as Imentioned above. Under these conditions, the snow will be at it's softest late in the day and early evening. It will be at it's firmest in the pre-dawn hours. If I have a chance on staying on top of the pack (firm), it will be after midnight and up to an hour after daylight.
Next is the terrain. While forests offer more cover, the snow is almost always softer there alond with less wind to hide things. Ridges often offer the hard crust you are looking for, and wind to hide tracks, but less concealment, obviously, while you are on the move. If you choose a ridge line, by all means stick to the military crest!
If anything, mission planning is at a premium for winter conditions. The more time you can spend in the AO assessing ahead of time, the better your chances of understanding what the conditions are.
I really just hit the highlights here....like anything else, ya gotta go live it to know it.
The main key lies in assessing the conditions before and after the mission and the snow pack type. I also assume you have some say on the timing of the mission.
If the snow is hard and crusty, look for warmer conditions followed by more snow and time your movement appropriately. Even then, it is tough to hide from an experienced tracker or someone with northern hunting experience.
If you have a soft, powdery pack, you increase your chances of hiding your tracks by timing your movement to precede snowfall and/or <span style="font-style: italic">wind</span>. The more of each the better.
A drag is unadvisable unless you have one of the following: a) a very hard pack and it is enough to support your weight without post-holing. Here, wind is also your friend. b) less than an inch of powdery stuff and you have warmer++ weather, a bit more snow, or wind coming. A drag will help the process along in these cases. If you use a drag, do not widen, nor deepen your path by any more than necessary. Total obliteration is not the goal here, you are just looking to help mother nature out and hope that she can do her work before others come along.
Under most other conditions, you really expending a lot of energy for probably no gain by using a drag.
I also like what TRM had to say. If there are more that one of you, walk in each others tracks and be diligent about it. Under powdery conditions, I'll know there was more than one, but most likely not how many. Under firm conditions, I can count usually up to three, but after that, I won't know exactly how many: 3-5, 5-10, but an exact count is hard.
Sun can also be your friend. Under warm sunny days followed by clear cold nights is how you get your hard pack. A series of these and you may be able to stay on top and do as Imentioned above. Under these conditions, the snow will be at it's softest late in the day and early evening. It will be at it's firmest in the pre-dawn hours. If I have a chance on staying on top of the pack (firm), it will be after midnight and up to an hour after daylight.
Next is the terrain. While forests offer more cover, the snow is almost always softer there alond with less wind to hide things. Ridges often offer the hard crust you are looking for, and wind to hide tracks, but less concealment, obviously, while you are on the move. If you choose a ridge line, by all means stick to the military crest!
If anything, mission planning is at a premium for winter conditions. The more time you can spend in the AO assessing ahead of time, the better your chances of understanding what the conditions are.
I really just hit the highlights here....like anything else, ya gotta go live it to know it.
Re: Moving in the snow
Seriously?
IMHO, anything that needs to get whacked out there in the Great White can have a free pass until the thaw. I'm not going to go out trying to either accomplish the impossible, or leave a clear trail to my A/O, just because somebody up there in the chain of command thinks Snipers are expendible assets.
Greg
Seriously?
IMHO, anything that needs to get whacked out there in the Great White can have a free pass until the thaw. I'm not going to go out trying to either accomplish the impossible, or leave a clear trail to my A/O, just because somebody up there in the chain of command thinks Snipers are expendible assets.
Greg
Re: Moving in the snow
we made "YETI" (adbomiable snowman)strap on sno-shoes to cover/misguide/scare our enemy.It worked... scared everybody....Made national news....
Good Luck and Good hiking.....
bill
we made "YETI" (adbomiable snowman)strap on sno-shoes to cover/misguide/scare our enemy.It worked... scared everybody....Made national news....
Good Luck and Good hiking.....
bill
Re: Moving in the snow
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seriously?
IMHO, anything that needs to get whacked out there in the Great White can have a free pass until the thaw. I'm not going to go out trying to either accomplish the impossible, or leave a clear trail to my A/O, just because somebody up there in the chain of command thinks Snipers are expendible assets.
Greg </div></div>
This is probably the best option if you can get High Command to buy into it!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seriously?
IMHO, anything that needs to get whacked out there in the Great White can have a free pass until the thaw. I'm not going to go out trying to either accomplish the impossible, or leave a clear trail to my A/O, just because somebody up there in the chain of command thinks Snipers are expendible assets.
Greg </div></div>
This is probably the best option if you can get High Command to buy into it!
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Moving in the snow
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jig Stick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If military marksmen have to move in the snow, how do you disguise your tracks? Seems impossible to me.</div></div>
Been done, in far away lands for many, many, years. Being a ghost, is a required skill set in all that mother nature has to offer
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jig Stick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If there is some Jedi trick to this that shouldnt be revealed to the public then so be it.... </div></div> Very simple trick, taught to those who need to know. If you never think out of the box, you'll never out preform your enemy. You don't/won't always have the luxury to wait until the weather is to your liking. With most ground missions, the best time to strike is during the worst possible weather.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jig Stick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If military marksmen have to move in the snow, how do you disguise your tracks? Seems impossible to me.</div></div>
Been done, in far away lands for many, many, years. Being a ghost, is a required skill set in all that mother nature has to offer
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jig Stick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If there is some Jedi trick to this that shouldnt be revealed to the public then so be it.... </div></div> Very simple trick, taught to those who need to know. If you never think out of the box, you'll never out preform your enemy. You don't/won't always have the luxury to wait until the weather is to your liking. With most ground missions, the best time to strike is during the worst possible weather.
Re: Moving in the snow
Done a lot of "snow movement" in my 19 years in the Alaska Army National Guard, skis and snowshoes.
Snowshoes are the worse. Skis its hard to tell if you're coming or going. We've even tried wearing snow shows backwards to confuse the direction of our movement. Any good tracker can figure that out.
You can try to brush in the snow and cover your tracks, but that doesn't work well. You don't get the them filled in all the way and you get shadows.
Besides brushed snow looks just like it is, brushed snow.
You move in the trees as best you can, that protects you from the air, but not the ground.
Try to stick to ground game trails if you can. If moving in a (frozen) river, stay to the shady side (normaly this will be the south side).
The best bet is to move during high winds. Western Alaska is like Wyoming. A calm day is a 20-25 MPH breeze. This means your tracks will be covered in about as fast as you can make them. Stay on the down wind side of brush and trees, your track will fill in faster (much like the snow piles you see on the down wind side of snow fences you see along a high way).
The advantage of snow is you can travel a lot faster with less effert then you can on foot.
The best method of covering your tracks in the mountains are avalanches . The Guard sent me to an Avalanche School. It was a search and rescue type school but we went a bit further. If you create an Avalanche behind you it will cover all signs of you being there.
Watch your cammo. Sometimes you want full over whites, sometimes you dont. Sometimes you dont want any overwhites.
Done a lot of "snow movement" in my 19 years in the Alaska Army National Guard, skis and snowshoes.
Snowshoes are the worse. Skis its hard to tell if you're coming or going. We've even tried wearing snow shows backwards to confuse the direction of our movement. Any good tracker can figure that out.
You can try to brush in the snow and cover your tracks, but that doesn't work well. You don't get the them filled in all the way and you get shadows.
Besides brushed snow looks just like it is, brushed snow.
You move in the trees as best you can, that protects you from the air, but not the ground.
Try to stick to ground game trails if you can. If moving in a (frozen) river, stay to the shady side (normaly this will be the south side).
The best bet is to move during high winds. Western Alaska is like Wyoming. A calm day is a 20-25 MPH breeze. This means your tracks will be covered in about as fast as you can make them. Stay on the down wind side of brush and trees, your track will fill in faster (much like the snow piles you see on the down wind side of snow fences you see along a high way).
The advantage of snow is you can travel a lot faster with less effert then you can on foot.
The best method of covering your tracks in the mountains are avalanches . The Guard sent me to an Avalanche School. It was a search and rescue type school but we went a bit further. If you create an Avalanche behind you it will cover all signs of you being there.
Watch your cammo. Sometimes you want full over whites, sometimes you dont. Sometimes you dont want any overwhites.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Moving in the snow
Now that Kraig has handed 90% of it on a platter, more comes from planning your route, an using trails already in place made by others.
One thing most folks don't understand is the use of battlefield tactics. Yes, anyone can be tracked anytime, anywhere, but can they be tracked fast enough to change the planned out come? Will the tracker led the real targets to a 100% kill/capture, ambush?
Sometimes all is not what it seems, an when your hunting trained armed men, you best be a little better than they are.
Now that Kraig has handed 90% of it on a platter, more comes from planning your route, an using trails already in place made by others.
One thing most folks don't understand is the use of battlefield tactics. Yes, anyone can be tracked anytime, anywhere, but can they be tracked fast enough to change the planned out come? Will the tracker led the real targets to a 100% kill/capture, ambush?
Sometimes all is not what it seems, an when your hunting trained armed men, you best be a little better than they are.
Re: Moving in the snow
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trmorris21</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We always moved at night; waited for it to snow; moved single file; doubled backed; camoflaged by drags; moved up and down hill (snake trail); used natural veg to camo movement. Just some ideas. </div></div>
this is how we did it for the most part as well. you cannot mask your movements in the snow but you can keep them guessing as to what your strength and numbers are. we spent alot of time doing this type of movement due to being a cold weather unit.
greg,
you of all people know war and operations don't wait for nice weather....last i checked.
my.02
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trmorris21</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We always moved at night; waited for it to snow; moved single file; doubled backed; camoflaged by drags; moved up and down hill (snake trail); used natural veg to camo movement. Just some ideas. </div></div>
this is how we did it for the most part as well. you cannot mask your movements in the snow but you can keep them guessing as to what your strength and numbers are. we spent alot of time doing this type of movement due to being a cold weather unit.
greg,
you of all people know war and operations don't wait for nice weather....last i checked.
my.02
Re: Moving in the snow
There just aren't a lot of new ways to deal with the same old problems:
http://cgsc.cdmhost.com/cdm/singleitem/collection/p4013coll9/id/846/rec/13
I liked Kraig's answer, though.
Most of the time spent in winter ops is time spent trying to keep warm. For the record: I absolutely hated it - first being so cold that you can't sleep; then being not so cold that you are afraid to sleep.
There just aren't a lot of new ways to deal with the same old problems:
http://cgsc.cdmhost.com/cdm/singleitem/collection/p4013coll9/id/846/rec/13
I liked Kraig's answer, though.
Most of the time spent in winter ops is time spent trying to keep warm. For the record: I absolutely hated it - first being so cold that you can't sleep; then being not so cold that you are afraid to sleep.
Re: Moving in the snow
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I absolutely hated it - first being so cold that you can't sleep; then being not so cold that you are afraid to sleep.</div></div>
You should let me take you out sometine. After a few days I'll have you enjoying winter camping. You'll be able to sleep warm, get up warm to dry boots, and get your gear dry for packing for your next day's hike.
Keeping dry is the trick. That and fresh socks.
I always enjoyed winter camping better then summer. Especially in Alaska, no bugs in the winter.
Nothing beats laying there all nice and warm watching the Northern Lights dance around.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I absolutely hated it - first being so cold that you can't sleep; then being not so cold that you are afraid to sleep.</div></div>
You should let me take you out sometine. After a few days I'll have you enjoying winter camping. You'll be able to sleep warm, get up warm to dry boots, and get your gear dry for packing for your next day's hike.
Keeping dry is the trick. That and fresh socks.
I always enjoyed winter camping better then summer. Especially in Alaska, no bugs in the winter.
Nothing beats laying there all nice and warm watching the Northern Lights dance around.
Re: Moving in the snow
If you only knew how much I want to go to Alaska - and for a while. Perhaps because it is one place that I have never been, not even passed-through. Unfortunately life continues to get in the way.
I got somewhat better at winter camping after I abandoned military methods and began ice climbing. I agree that staying dry is the key, as is good gear. Being part of a team that communicates problems to each other as they develop also helps, as the military method of sucking it up and keeping quiet can be a death sentence in extreme environments.
If you only knew how much I want to go to Alaska - and for a while. Perhaps because it is one place that I have never been, not even passed-through. Unfortunately life continues to get in the way.
I got somewhat better at winter camping after I abandoned military methods and began ice climbing. I agree that staying dry is the key, as is good gear. Being part of a team that communicates problems to each other as they develop also helps, as the military method of sucking it up and keeping quiet can be a death sentence in extreme environments.
Re: Moving in the snow
Kraig, hope you don't mind me making some additions to your post....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Done a lot of "snow movement" in my 19 years in the Alaska Army National Guard, skis and snowshoes.
Snowshoes are the worse. Skis its hard to tell if you're coming or going. We've even tried wearing snow shows backwards to confuse the direction of our movement. Any good tracker can figure that out.
<span style="color: #FF0000">Sometimes shoes are your only way of moving, though. Also, I recommend no poles when skiing, as they will give away your direction of travel. Try to move cross slope as well as any upward or downward travel also gives away direction.</span>
You can try to brush in the snow and cover your tracks, but that doesn't work well. You don't get the them filled in all the way and you get shadows.
Besides brushed snow looks just like it is, brushed snow.
You move in the trees as best you can, that protects you from the air, but not the ground.
<span style="color: #FF0000">Agreed, I just forewarn that the snow is softer in the trees.</span>
Try to stick to ground game trails if you can. If moving in a (frozen) river, stay to the shady side (normaly this will be the south side).
<span style="color: #FF0000">+ 1 on the trails and on rivers. Rivers can espcially enhance speed. River sides can be very susceptable to post-holing if reeds and/or swamp areas are present, though. The exposed areas crust on top, but can melt from the bottom up leaving a very thin crust that will only support the lightest of creatures.</span>
The best bet is to move during high winds. Western Alaska is like Wyoming. A calm day is a 20-25 MPH breeze. This means your tracks will be covered in about as fast as you can make them. Stay on the down wind side of brush and trees, your track will fill in faster (much like the snow piles you see on the down wind side of snow fences you see along a high way).
<span style="color: #FF0000"> +1 wind is almost always your friend. No smoking, though
and be aware that your smell will carry in 10 mph and under breezes. </span>
The advantage of snow is you can travel a lot faster with less effert then you can on foot.
The best method of covering your tracks in the mountains are avalanches . The Guard sent me to an Avalanche School. It was a search and rescue type school but we went a bit further. If you create an Avalanche behind you it will cover all signs of you being there.
<span style="color: #CC0000">I caution not to try this at home! LOL. Seriously, you really need to go to Avalanche School and/or have some formal training in evaluating snow packs, otherwise you can dispose of yourself and your team rather quickly...and without a trace! I have also found causing slides can be time consuming and only erases small sections of trail as the slide is usually contained by natural features. Finally, if it's me and I see a series of slides, I'm going to become suspicious.
Best use of slides for me....I usually set a cold camp near a slide zone and use that to erase evidence in the morning. If it is snowing this can make for an eventful and noisy night!</span>
Watch your cammo. Sometimes you want full over whites, sometimes you dont. Sometimes you dont want any overwhites.
<span style="color: #CC0000">+10000. Camo can make an even bigger difference in snow conditions. To make a training point once during an exercise, I set-up in a participant's path in heavy conditions. He even kicked me, but would only believe what his eyes were telling him, which was this is a lump of snow and brush. He passed on by and would only believe it afterwards when I took him back to the location where it occurred.</span>
</div></div>
Kraig, hope you don't mind me making some additions to your post....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Done a lot of "snow movement" in my 19 years in the Alaska Army National Guard, skis and snowshoes.
Snowshoes are the worse. Skis its hard to tell if you're coming or going. We've even tried wearing snow shows backwards to confuse the direction of our movement. Any good tracker can figure that out.
<span style="color: #FF0000">Sometimes shoes are your only way of moving, though. Also, I recommend no poles when skiing, as they will give away your direction of travel. Try to move cross slope as well as any upward or downward travel also gives away direction.</span>
You can try to brush in the snow and cover your tracks, but that doesn't work well. You don't get the them filled in all the way and you get shadows.
Besides brushed snow looks just like it is, brushed snow.
You move in the trees as best you can, that protects you from the air, but not the ground.
<span style="color: #FF0000">Agreed, I just forewarn that the snow is softer in the trees.</span>
Try to stick to ground game trails if you can. If moving in a (frozen) river, stay to the shady side (normaly this will be the south side).
<span style="color: #FF0000">+ 1 on the trails and on rivers. Rivers can espcially enhance speed. River sides can be very susceptable to post-holing if reeds and/or swamp areas are present, though. The exposed areas crust on top, but can melt from the bottom up leaving a very thin crust that will only support the lightest of creatures.</span>
The best bet is to move during high winds. Western Alaska is like Wyoming. A calm day is a 20-25 MPH breeze. This means your tracks will be covered in about as fast as you can make them. Stay on the down wind side of brush and trees, your track will fill in faster (much like the snow piles you see on the down wind side of snow fences you see along a high way).
<span style="color: #FF0000"> +1 wind is almost always your friend. No smoking, though
The advantage of snow is you can travel a lot faster with less effert then you can on foot.
The best method of covering your tracks in the mountains are avalanches . The Guard sent me to an Avalanche School. It was a search and rescue type school but we went a bit further. If you create an Avalanche behind you it will cover all signs of you being there.
<span style="color: #CC0000">I caution not to try this at home! LOL. Seriously, you really need to go to Avalanche School and/or have some formal training in evaluating snow packs, otherwise you can dispose of yourself and your team rather quickly...and without a trace! I have also found causing slides can be time consuming and only erases small sections of trail as the slide is usually contained by natural features. Finally, if it's me and I see a series of slides, I'm going to become suspicious.
Best use of slides for me....I usually set a cold camp near a slide zone and use that to erase evidence in the morning. If it is snowing this can make for an eventful and noisy night!</span>
Watch your cammo. Sometimes you want full over whites, sometimes you dont. Sometimes you dont want any overwhites.
<span style="color: #CC0000">+10000. Camo can make an even bigger difference in snow conditions. To make a training point once during an exercise, I set-up in a participant's path in heavy conditions. He even kicked me, but would only believe what his eyes were telling him, which was this is a lump of snow and brush. He passed on by and would only believe it afterwards when I took him back to the location where it occurred.</span>
</div></div>
Re: Moving in the snow
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Kraig, hope you don't mind me making some additions to your post....</div></div>
Not a bit, that was a long time ago for me. That was off the cuff, I forgot most of it.
The only hiding from people I do now is from wife's honey do list. Don't need snow for that, just scatter some tools around the truck, slide underneight and take a nap.
I do remember it was a lot of fun, in the Guard, we did a huge majority of our training in the winter. We did a lot of training hiding from helochopters that were carrying ground troops to chase us if we were spotted.
We (Recon Det, Abn, 207th Inf Grp, AK ARNG) got to where we were pretty good at not getting caught, yet it was hard to hide from us.
Another topic on the same lines is "land nav", we didn't have GPS back then. Land Nav in Western Alaska was tricky, no terrian features and it was hard to do pace counts on skis.
It was a lot of fun............ahhh to be young again. This topic brings up a lot of fond memories.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Kraig, hope you don't mind me making some additions to your post....</div></div>
Not a bit, that was a long time ago for me. That was off the cuff, I forgot most of it.
The only hiding from people I do now is from wife's honey do list. Don't need snow for that, just scatter some tools around the truck, slide underneight and take a nap.
I do remember it was a lot of fun, in the Guard, we did a huge majority of our training in the winter. We did a lot of training hiding from helochopters that were carrying ground troops to chase us if we were spotted.
We (Recon Det, Abn, 207th Inf Grp, AK ARNG) got to where we were pretty good at not getting caught, yet it was hard to hide from us.
Another topic on the same lines is "land nav", we didn't have GPS back then. Land Nav in Western Alaska was tricky, no terrian features and it was hard to do pace counts on skis.
It was a lot of fun............ahhh to be young again. This topic brings up a lot of fond memories.
G
Guest
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Re: Moving in the snow
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> This topic brings up a lot of fond memories.</div></div>
Ya, an some otherwise, as well.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> This topic brings up a lot of fond memories.</div></div>
Ya, an some otherwise, as well.
Re: Moving in the snow
Snow sucks. If its hard pack noise discipline is next to impossible, and sound travels very well in a frozen enviroment. If its soft and deep you'll probably be tripping over stuff, snagging snowshoes or skis, or stumbling in unseen holes. If its blowing hard enough to blow off all the soft snow there will be perfect convex footprints where you made hardpack. A good storm covers a path well, its also a good way to get disoriented and/or find yourself falling off a cliff or into a crevice. Night's fairly good, as long as there's clouds, if its moonlit you don't need NVGs to see miles in sparse veg. Cutting slides loose is two fold, hides your trail and is very unnerving to most people. Well traveled paths, roads, and gametrails are probably the most effective ways to conceal your tracks, but can pose significant risks to being observed.
Snow sucks. If its hard pack noise discipline is next to impossible, and sound travels very well in a frozen enviroment. If its soft and deep you'll probably be tripping over stuff, snagging snowshoes or skis, or stumbling in unseen holes. If its blowing hard enough to blow off all the soft snow there will be perfect convex footprints where you made hardpack. A good storm covers a path well, its also a good way to get disoriented and/or find yourself falling off a cliff or into a crevice. Night's fairly good, as long as there's clouds, if its moonlit you don't need NVGs to see miles in sparse veg. Cutting slides loose is two fold, hides your trail and is very unnerving to most people. Well traveled paths, roads, and gametrails are probably the most effective ways to conceal your tracks, but can pose significant risks to being observed.
Re: Moving in the snow
Snow isn't all that bad. Remember, your prey also has to deal with it.
Learn to use it, it could be a huge advantage.
It's not really that hard to travel over snow without tripping over snags (they're easy to spot under the snow).
It's also not that hard to keep from falling into crevices. Watch the shadows, even at night you can tell a lot about by studying shadows.
Remember, wind is your friend, it conceals sounds and covers your tracks. Learn to make smokeless fires. Warm food and drink keep you sharp. You also need to heat small rocks to keep your boots dried out.
Extreme cold slows down vehicles, not troops.
Read up on the winter war, the Finns raised hell with the Russians because they weren't afraid of a little snow.
Snow isn't all that bad. Remember, your prey also has to deal with it.
Learn to use it, it could be a huge advantage.
It's not really that hard to travel over snow without tripping over snags (they're easy to spot under the snow).
It's also not that hard to keep from falling into crevices. Watch the shadows, even at night you can tell a lot about by studying shadows.
Remember, wind is your friend, it conceals sounds and covers your tracks. Learn to make smokeless fires. Warm food and drink keep you sharp. You also need to heat small rocks to keep your boots dried out.
Extreme cold slows down vehicles, not troops.
Read up on the winter war, the Finns raised hell with the Russians because they weren't afraid of a little snow.
Re: Moving in the snow
All due respect to your experiences, mine are different.
Oct-Apr I work and play in snow, it has perks, not many, no bugs is definitely one of them, overwhites are simple and very effective camo is another, and my personal favorite its the best surface to run the snowmobile on.
I have been in many situations when the surface of the snow was even and there were branches and even small trees laid over under it, proper combination of wind, grade, depth, base, and powder I spose, never the less it does happen.
I have been in conditions where I could not see a person in dark clothes at eight feet, its called a whiteout, the snow is so thick in the air there are no shadows and it is impossible to make out terrain features or tell sky from ground, all made worse by projected light sources and can get deadly quick in mountainous terrain and disorienting anywhere. I sit these out in the mountains, it can be hours, on flat land, you can use a compass.
Crevices are known to have cornices form and bridge them (no shadow), many will support you, some won't.
Not saying its impossible, or that there are no solutions, just that moving thru an area and concealing that passage has many challenges. And the travel when there's wind or snowfall advice is pretty sound but can carry severe risks of its own.
All due respect to your experiences, mine are different.
Oct-Apr I work and play in snow, it has perks, not many, no bugs is definitely one of them, overwhites are simple and very effective camo is another, and my personal favorite its the best surface to run the snowmobile on.
I have been in many situations when the surface of the snow was even and there were branches and even small trees laid over under it, proper combination of wind, grade, depth, base, and powder I spose, never the less it does happen.
I have been in conditions where I could not see a person in dark clothes at eight feet, its called a whiteout, the snow is so thick in the air there are no shadows and it is impossible to make out terrain features or tell sky from ground, all made worse by projected light sources and can get deadly quick in mountainous terrain and disorienting anywhere. I sit these out in the mountains, it can be hours, on flat land, you can use a compass.
Crevices are known to have cornices form and bridge them (no shadow), many will support you, some won't.
Not saying its impossible, or that there are no solutions, just that moving thru an area and concealing that passage has many challenges. And the travel when there's wind or snowfall advice is pretty sound but can carry severe risks of its own.
Re: Moving in the snow
This is an interesting topic. But first to have the skill set, one would need to know the AO, season and mission objective. Ground observation or air. From the air finding and following tracks is much easier than on the ground.
In the urban and surroundings it would not be hard at all. Many tracks from animals and humans and vehicles.
Wide flat open would be very hard. Even with snowfall and wind, new snow and dust fill in the tiniest of divots in the snow pack and is very easy to see if you know what you are looking for. Its rare to get deep snow in this terrain without wind and even with deep new snow fall, depending on the old surface, its still quite easy to pick up old tracks by the shadows. Here wind is your enemy.
Mountains. Traveling on the wind side leaves good tracks but is the safest. Traveling on the lee is absolutely dangerous but the wind/pillow would help hide tracks as it collects snow very quickly and deep. Rocks and scee with ridges offer the fastest movement with the littlest human footprint. When in the mountains and we left camp, we always placed a camp marker; garden stakes taped together reaching 10 foot high with a flag and reflective tape. Shoot bearings before leaving camp. Snow fall in the mountains can bury a tent and camp in under a day. The only time I have ever seen snow fall completely wipe out all tracks.
Forrest and bottom terrain. Deadfalls and snow bombs falling will help hide tracks but very little to nothing to morph tracks. The terrain is tuff to navigate.
Rivers very fast with sun, wind and snow fall to help hide / morph tracks. But little cover out there. Open water and ice jams will also help hide tracks.
The sun is your friend more than the wind as it will morph tracks into unrecognizable holes, the human gait is very easy to pick up. Four footprints could confuse with an animal Vs two means human or bigfoot. Animal Belly rubs and scratching for food along with multiple holes could ad confusion and hide movement. Moose with calf, bear with cub travel in a single file, youngin behind mama until mama searches for food, then they split up and mingle around. Sheep and goats the same thing but they rarely just travel and mingle around. The problem is, northern latitudes have little warming sun light in deep winter. Spring the solar is very intense and morphs tracks quickly. Summer sun will morph tracks in an hour or two. Fall solar is not as intense mostly due to weather.
Early and late season snow fall is the wettest and would help cover tracks. Mid season snow fall is dry and will not cover tracks.
The can only think of one use of snowshoes over skis on snow is trapping. With today's short fat waxless skis, they are too efficient and lightweight to ever think of using snowshoes. Ski pole holes, with a heavy pack on with skis, I would have to have ski poles, their usefulness would outweigh their signature in the snow.
I have stomped around Alaska for many decades and can ensure that it would be very hard for anyone to hide their trail for any length of time / or distance in winter. Depending the AO and time of year it would be easier and of course harder.
Brimfrost 83 I believe it was, our HQ got bombed and we had to evac to our point which was across a road in a clump of alders. My SSgt at the time took a leak and darn near pee'd on our perimeter force...soldier did not say a word to us but his eyes said it all. They were very hard to see with overwhites and veggies on in the dusk.
This is an interesting topic. But first to have the skill set, one would need to know the AO, season and mission objective. Ground observation or air. From the air finding and following tracks is much easier than on the ground.
In the urban and surroundings it would not be hard at all. Many tracks from animals and humans and vehicles.
Wide flat open would be very hard. Even with snowfall and wind, new snow and dust fill in the tiniest of divots in the snow pack and is very easy to see if you know what you are looking for. Its rare to get deep snow in this terrain without wind and even with deep new snow fall, depending on the old surface, its still quite easy to pick up old tracks by the shadows. Here wind is your enemy.
Mountains. Traveling on the wind side leaves good tracks but is the safest. Traveling on the lee is absolutely dangerous but the wind/pillow would help hide tracks as it collects snow very quickly and deep. Rocks and scee with ridges offer the fastest movement with the littlest human footprint. When in the mountains and we left camp, we always placed a camp marker; garden stakes taped together reaching 10 foot high with a flag and reflective tape. Shoot bearings before leaving camp. Snow fall in the mountains can bury a tent and camp in under a day. The only time I have ever seen snow fall completely wipe out all tracks.
Forrest and bottom terrain. Deadfalls and snow bombs falling will help hide tracks but very little to nothing to morph tracks. The terrain is tuff to navigate.
Rivers very fast with sun, wind and snow fall to help hide / morph tracks. But little cover out there. Open water and ice jams will also help hide tracks.
The sun is your friend more than the wind as it will morph tracks into unrecognizable holes, the human gait is very easy to pick up. Four footprints could confuse with an animal Vs two means human or bigfoot. Animal Belly rubs and scratching for food along with multiple holes could ad confusion and hide movement. Moose with calf, bear with cub travel in a single file, youngin behind mama until mama searches for food, then they split up and mingle around. Sheep and goats the same thing but they rarely just travel and mingle around. The problem is, northern latitudes have little warming sun light in deep winter. Spring the solar is very intense and morphs tracks quickly. Summer sun will morph tracks in an hour or two. Fall solar is not as intense mostly due to weather.
Early and late season snow fall is the wettest and would help cover tracks. Mid season snow fall is dry and will not cover tracks.
The can only think of one use of snowshoes over skis on snow is trapping. With today's short fat waxless skis, they are too efficient and lightweight to ever think of using snowshoes. Ski pole holes, with a heavy pack on with skis, I would have to have ski poles, their usefulness would outweigh their signature in the snow.
I have stomped around Alaska for many decades and can ensure that it would be very hard for anyone to hide their trail for any length of time / or distance in winter. Depending the AO and time of year it would be easier and of course harder.
Brimfrost 83 I believe it was, our HQ got bombed and we had to evac to our point which was across a road in a clump of alders. My SSgt at the time took a leak and darn near pee'd on our perimeter force...soldier did not say a word to us but his eyes said it all. They were very hard to see with overwhites and veggies on in the dusk.
Re: Moving in the snow
Brim Frost '83............I think that was the year they tried to nail me for Kidnapping a girl.
My team jumped into Greely and were suppose to set up a drop zone for the 172nd. Per Regulations they had a medic on the ground for our jump, but my medic got hurt on the jump so I sent him to Wainwright and kept the medic, a whinny little female because I had to have a medic for the 172nd's jump.
She tried to file charges that I kidnapped her, wouldn't let her go back like she was suppose to.
Little bitch wouldn;t come out of a tent we provided for her, she even peed her sleeping bag cause she would get up. Had to drag her out of bed for the jump.
It's a lot better to face the cold and just get up and pee. You'll get more sleep in the long run and be more productive when you get up.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The sun is your friend more than the wind</div></div>
Not sure I agree with that, besides not a lot of sun light up north in the winter.
I still say winter operations are more fun.
Brim Frost '83............I think that was the year they tried to nail me for Kidnapping a girl.
My team jumped into Greely and were suppose to set up a drop zone for the 172nd. Per Regulations they had a medic on the ground for our jump, but my medic got hurt on the jump so I sent him to Wainwright and kept the medic, a whinny little female because I had to have a medic for the 172nd's jump.
She tried to file charges that I kidnapped her, wouldn't let her go back like she was suppose to.
Little bitch wouldn;t come out of a tent we provided for her, she even peed her sleeping bag cause she would get up. Had to drag her out of bed for the jump.
It's a lot better to face the cold and just get up and pee. You'll get more sleep in the long run and be more productive when you get up.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The sun is your friend more than the wind</div></div>
Not sure I agree with that, besides not a lot of sun light up north in the winter.
I still say winter operations are more fun.
Re: Moving in the snow
The sun morphs tracks into indistinguishable holes; no boot print. Of course there is not much solar in winter in the artic but spring the solar is very intense and can morph tracks in a day or an afternoon. Summer just a few minutes.
Wind fills tracks in with new snow, dust, and different color and shaped particles that will highlight the track or blow away the loose snow leaving a hard packed foot print. I have seen human tracks on the windy hardpack a good half inch higher than the wind scoured snow pack around it, both by wind moving the lose snow and solar morphing the loose snow around the hardpack footprint at a faster rate.
Like I said, have to understand the AO and the season first to counter your tracks.
The sun morphs tracks into indistinguishable holes; no boot print. Of course there is not much solar in winter in the artic but spring the solar is very intense and can morph tracks in a day or an afternoon. Summer just a few minutes.
Wind fills tracks in with new snow, dust, and different color and shaped particles that will highlight the track or blow away the loose snow leaving a hard packed foot print. I have seen human tracks on the windy hardpack a good half inch higher than the wind scoured snow pack around it, both by wind moving the lose snow and solar morphing the loose snow around the hardpack footprint at a faster rate.
Like I said, have to understand the AO and the season first to counter your tracks.
Re: Moving in the snow
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I absolutely hated it - first being so cold that you can't sleep; then being not so cold that you are afraid to sleep.</div></div>
You should let me take you out sometine. After a few days I'll have you enjoying winter camping. You'll be able to sleep warm, get up warm to dry boots, and get your gear dry for packing for your next day's hike.
Keeping dry is the trick. That and fresh socks.
I always enjoyed winter camping better then summer. Especially in Alaska, no bugs in the winter.
Nothing beats laying there all nice and warm watching the Northern Lights dance around.
</div></div>
If you wouldn't mind I would appreciate any information you would be willing to impart on that subject. The winters where I live are obviously not anything compared to yours but I would love to learn!
This thread is very interesting to me guys thanks a lot for sharing =D
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I absolutely hated it - first being so cold that you can't sleep; then being not so cold that you are afraid to sleep.</div></div>
You should let me take you out sometine. After a few days I'll have you enjoying winter camping. You'll be able to sleep warm, get up warm to dry boots, and get your gear dry for packing for your next day's hike.
Keeping dry is the trick. That and fresh socks.
I always enjoyed winter camping better then summer. Especially in Alaska, no bugs in the winter.
Nothing beats laying there all nice and warm watching the Northern Lights dance around.
</div></div>
If you wouldn't mind I would appreciate any information you would be willing to impart on that subject. The winters where I live are obviously not anything compared to yours but I would love to learn!
This thread is very interesting to me guys thanks a lot for sharing =D
Re: Moving in the snow
winter camping is not so hard as some might think. last weekend we've had -20 deg Celcius and i thought it would be good to get some of the gear out again:
- i'm using my 3-season sleeping bag (filled with down)
- added my hut-sleeping bag from carinthia (the thick one) as a liner for the sleeping bag.
- good, thick insulation mat.
the rest was just a very rough shelter made from snow with a bivy-bag roof and proper clothes.
things i think you ought to keep in mind:
- close the top area of your sleeping bag with whatever strings you have attached. most of your heat is lost there.
- some people become claustrophobic when you close the sleeping bag that much. try to keep it more often then, but add some scarf or similar loose equipment to stop the airflow.
- when diving in cold water, you need a hat. same applies (from my point of view) from sleeping in the cold. a normal wool hat can make tons of a difference when sleeping in the cold.
- you want to stop airflow and use those 'air pillows' as insulation to keep you warm. _but_ the clothes that provide those 'air pillows' should all allow proper blood-flow. do _not_ wear clothes/underwear/whatever that is restricting blood flow in any sense. those limbs will feel cold. rather two thick pairs of socks that are a bit too large than too small.
- what i found to help tons when sleeping in the open in the winter (with bivy only wrapped around) - balaclava. sometimes i wake up when there is fresh snow falling (or being blown) towards on my face in very basic shelters. with a balaclava i sleep without any issues even in decent snow fall.
- whatever you want to have warm in the morning, bring it into your sleeping bag. whatever is wet/iced/with snow (like shoes, gloves), brush it off, put it into a waterproof bag an bring it along into the sleeping bag.
from my description above you may have noticed that i tend to be more exposed to the elements. in the mentioned cases, i did it on purpose to check my equipment as well as test some backup plans. obviously, spending 2+ hours on a proper snow shelter will tremendously improve your comfort (and security against frostbite, etc). once you get out of the wind, you won.
more to come when i have more time.
winter camping is not so hard as some might think. last weekend we've had -20 deg Celcius and i thought it would be good to get some of the gear out again:
- i'm using my 3-season sleeping bag (filled with down)
- added my hut-sleeping bag from carinthia (the thick one) as a liner for the sleeping bag.
- good, thick insulation mat.
the rest was just a very rough shelter made from snow with a bivy-bag roof and proper clothes.
things i think you ought to keep in mind:
- close the top area of your sleeping bag with whatever strings you have attached. most of your heat is lost there.
- some people become claustrophobic when you close the sleeping bag that much. try to keep it more often then, but add some scarf or similar loose equipment to stop the airflow.
- when diving in cold water, you need a hat. same applies (from my point of view) from sleeping in the cold. a normal wool hat can make tons of a difference when sleeping in the cold.
- you want to stop airflow and use those 'air pillows' as insulation to keep you warm. _but_ the clothes that provide those 'air pillows' should all allow proper blood-flow. do _not_ wear clothes/underwear/whatever that is restricting blood flow in any sense. those limbs will feel cold. rather two thick pairs of socks that are a bit too large than too small.
- what i found to help tons when sleeping in the open in the winter (with bivy only wrapped around) - balaclava. sometimes i wake up when there is fresh snow falling (or being blown) towards on my face in very basic shelters. with a balaclava i sleep without any issues even in decent snow fall.
- whatever you want to have warm in the morning, bring it into your sleeping bag. whatever is wet/iced/with snow (like shoes, gloves), brush it off, put it into a waterproof bag an bring it along into the sleeping bag.
from my description above you may have noticed that i tend to be more exposed to the elements. in the mentioned cases, i did it on purpose to check my equipment as well as test some backup plans. obviously, spending 2+ hours on a proper snow shelter will tremendously improve your comfort (and security against frostbite, etc). once you get out of the wind, you won.
more to come when i have more time.
Re: Moving in the snow
I found out I didn't need a fire, and I didn't need hot meals; but that a small, efficient stove was indispensible for providing drinking water.
Shelter from wind and wet is a gotta-have, as is dry wearables.
Extremities need insulation; when they go dark, the core is close on their heels.
When hypothermia strikes, the reasoning process is the first thing that fails. Never travel alone, always pay attention to your partner's situation. Nobody makes it out alone and unscathed.
If you don't have an utterly valid and compelling reason to take on such risks; you don't belong out there. Bravado kills as quicks any predator, just not as quick or clean.
I watched part of a PBS documentary ths past weekend about a guy who set out to cross Antarctica on foot and alone.
I bailed about halfway through, after he'd lost both his original ski binding and his backup, his primary stove, and all his comm gear except for a radio to his base camp.
He was letting his stubborn pride put himself into a situation that was way outside his plan A, his Plan B, and the 'I don't know, now what?' plan. He kept nattering on about how he didn't want to let years of planning go out the window.
Personally, when his gear started failing at an alarming rate in the first couple of days, it would have become abundantly clear even to a dolt like me that my shakedown process was far from having attained the stage where it was advisable to bet the entire venture on what he was going with. By that point, it was already time turn back.
I just didn't have the stomach to watch this guy carrying on wrecklessly, potentially endangering his putative rescuers. I still don't know how his 'exploration' ended.
Greg
I found out I didn't need a fire, and I didn't need hot meals; but that a small, efficient stove was indispensible for providing drinking water.
Shelter from wind and wet is a gotta-have, as is dry wearables.
Extremities need insulation; when they go dark, the core is close on their heels.
When hypothermia strikes, the reasoning process is the first thing that fails. Never travel alone, always pay attention to your partner's situation. Nobody makes it out alone and unscathed.
If you don't have an utterly valid and compelling reason to take on such risks; you don't belong out there. Bravado kills as quicks any predator, just not as quick or clean.
I watched part of a PBS documentary ths past weekend about a guy who set out to cross Antarctica on foot and alone.
I bailed about halfway through, after he'd lost both his original ski binding and his backup, his primary stove, and all his comm gear except for a radio to his base camp.
He was letting his stubborn pride put himself into a situation that was way outside his plan A, his Plan B, and the 'I don't know, now what?' plan. He kept nattering on about how he didn't want to let years of planning go out the window.
Personally, when his gear started failing at an alarming rate in the first couple of days, it would have become abundantly clear even to a dolt like me that my shakedown process was far from having attained the stage where it was advisable to bet the entire venture on what he was going with. By that point, it was already time turn back.
I just didn't have the stomach to watch this guy carrying on wrecklessly, potentially endangering his putative rescuers. I still don't know how his 'exploration' ended.
Greg
Re: Moving in the snow
I'm not a fan of keeping your head "inside" the sleeping bag, your breath creates too much moisture. Instead, use a watch cap or something to cover your head.
Another thing, ditch "all" your cloths when you climb in the bag, you'll be much warmer in the long run.
I'm not a fan of "ice or snow" huts, I like a little light weight tent. You only have to keep the wind off you.
Greg is correct on little light wight individual stoves, MSR makes some great ones, Stay away from propane stoves, propane freezes up, white gas doesn't.
Set your stove, and other gear just outside your tent so you can fire it up from the sleeping bag. Careful becaue its gonna flair up with fuel, don't want that in your tent.
Stoves are also great for heating the rocks that go in your boots over night. I also like to make pan bread to go with my oakmeal. Mix up your biscuit mix before the trip. All you need to do is add water. I fry it in an old army messkit.
I spent a great deal of time on St Lawrence Island, there is nothing there (as to tember) and the brush is covered with snow so the stove is all I had for fires. The south side of the island has drift wood that piled up on the beach brought down by the currents of the Bering Sea, but the northside has nothing.
As I think I mentioned I carry one of those army arctic canteens which I fill with hot coffee before I start out on the day's trek. It stays hot and is gone and can be refilled at the noon stop.
I normally get it set up that by the time I'm ready to get out of the bag I have coffee and hot water ready for oat meal. Nothing beats hot oat meal when you climb out of a warm fart sack in the morning.
If no trees or brush is around, use your skis or ski poles to stritch a line so you can hang your "inside out" sleeping bag and tent to air out. The moisture you created during the night will freeze and you'll be able to shake it out before you pack up.
I'm not a fan of waxless skis, I like a good pine tar and wax base and add my own was based on the conditions. It makes for easier and less tiring travel.
If done right, cross country skiing takes 1/3 the effort as walking.
With a bit of forethought and preplanning there is no reason winter camping trips have to be uncomfortable or fearful.
I always carried a little revolver (S&W model 10 or now a 642) because there were plenty of snowshoe hairs or ptargiman around. Nothing like hot meat before you turn in at night.
Also the Alaska Natives do most of their trapping along rivers. We've came across wolf setups where they use caribou as bait. Robbed some steaks off their set ups a time or two.
When rivers and creeks freeze up, the water level drops, and if running doesn't freeze The ice cover can be dangerous, watch when crossing. But it can also be your friend. You can find an openning or create one, you can find some pretty good fishing for pan size trout or gryling.
No reason not to enjoy your winter camping trips.
I'm not a fan of keeping your head "inside" the sleeping bag, your breath creates too much moisture. Instead, use a watch cap or something to cover your head.
Another thing, ditch "all" your cloths when you climb in the bag, you'll be much warmer in the long run.
I'm not a fan of "ice or snow" huts, I like a little light weight tent. You only have to keep the wind off you.
Greg is correct on little light wight individual stoves, MSR makes some great ones, Stay away from propane stoves, propane freezes up, white gas doesn't.
Set your stove, and other gear just outside your tent so you can fire it up from the sleeping bag. Careful becaue its gonna flair up with fuel, don't want that in your tent.
Stoves are also great for heating the rocks that go in your boots over night. I also like to make pan bread to go with my oakmeal. Mix up your biscuit mix before the trip. All you need to do is add water. I fry it in an old army messkit.
I spent a great deal of time on St Lawrence Island, there is nothing there (as to tember) and the brush is covered with snow so the stove is all I had for fires. The south side of the island has drift wood that piled up on the beach brought down by the currents of the Bering Sea, but the northside has nothing.
As I think I mentioned I carry one of those army arctic canteens which I fill with hot coffee before I start out on the day's trek. It stays hot and is gone and can be refilled at the noon stop.
I normally get it set up that by the time I'm ready to get out of the bag I have coffee and hot water ready for oat meal. Nothing beats hot oat meal when you climb out of a warm fart sack in the morning.
If no trees or brush is around, use your skis or ski poles to stritch a line so you can hang your "inside out" sleeping bag and tent to air out. The moisture you created during the night will freeze and you'll be able to shake it out before you pack up.
I'm not a fan of waxless skis, I like a good pine tar and wax base and add my own was based on the conditions. It makes for easier and less tiring travel.
If done right, cross country skiing takes 1/3 the effort as walking.
With a bit of forethought and preplanning there is no reason winter camping trips have to be uncomfortable or fearful.
I always carried a little revolver (S&W model 10 or now a 642) because there were plenty of snowshoe hairs or ptargiman around. Nothing like hot meat before you turn in at night.
Also the Alaska Natives do most of their trapping along rivers. We've came across wolf setups where they use caribou as bait. Robbed some steaks off their set ups a time or two.
When rivers and creeks freeze up, the water level drops, and if running doesn't freeze The ice cover can be dangerous, watch when crossing. But it can also be your friend. You can find an openning or create one, you can find some pretty good fishing for pan size trout or gryling.
No reason not to enjoy your winter camping trips.
S
Seth8541
Guest
Re: Moving in the snow
My best advise would be to use the most difficult route possible. Stay away from "natural lines of drift" as in any other type of terrain. If you choose the most undesirable route possible you will have less track to try and cover, and the chances of somebody stumbling over your tracks are less likely. Chose your route and movement times carefully. Base your route on where the normal person would NEVER even contemplate being, and that's where you need to be.
JMO, but I believe that the biggest advantage you can give yourself in this situation would be, as with most, will be your route selection.
My best advise would be to use the most difficult route possible. Stay away from "natural lines of drift" as in any other type of terrain. If you choose the most undesirable route possible you will have less track to try and cover, and the chances of somebody stumbling over your tracks are less likely. Chose your route and movement times carefully. Base your route on where the normal person would NEVER even contemplate being, and that's where you need to be.
JMO, but I believe that the biggest advantage you can give yourself in this situation would be, as with most, will be your route selection.
Re: Moving in the snow
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Seth8541</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Base your route on where the normal person would NEVER even contemplate being, and that's where you need to be.
</div></div>
And that's exactly where I would go first, to look for sign.....just sayin'.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Seth8541</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Base your route on where the normal person would NEVER even contemplate being, and that's where you need to be.
</div></div>
And that's exactly where I would go first, to look for sign.....just sayin'.
Re: Moving in the snow
We spent a lot of time hunting for others and being hunted by others, including helechopters.
In all honesty, if someone knows anything about the north country, you arn't going to be able to hide your tracks.
We spent a lot of time hunting for others and being hunted by others, including helechopters.
In all honesty, if someone knows anything about the north country, you arn't going to be able to hide your tracks.
S
Seth8541
Guest
Re: Moving in the snow
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Seth8541</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Base your route on where the normal person would NEVER even contemplate being, and that's where you need to be.
</div></div>
And that's exactly where I would go first, to look for sign.....just sayin'. </div></div>
I guess that greatly depends on the tracker, the experience level of the person doing the tracking, if you are even being tracked, if the tracker has a place to start, if he has any idea on the location to which you are moving to, etc.
Let's not get to wrapped around the axle here, you don't have any Malasian Mantrackers or Tommy Lee Jones looking for you. If you know you are being tracked, the best idea, keeping in mind that you are not going to fool an experienced tracker with BS techniques like wearing bigfoot pattern footwear, walking backwards, or dragging brush behind you, you will have to circle back and setup an ambush location for the person tracking you.
Real easy to say "that's exactly were I would look.....just sayin" when you know that you are indeed looking for someone and you possibly carry the same mindset of that person. More often than not, you will be operating in an area undetected and your enemy, if you done everything correct, wont or shouldn't know you even there. And if you chose to operate way off the beaten path, they will continue to not know you are there. But i guess you would suggest walking right down the middle of the trail dragging a piece of sage brush behind you and hoping that it snows to cover your tracks by morning, so all the bad guys who travel that same easy route everyday won't see your lazy ass tracks.
...........just sayin
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Seth8541</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Base your route on where the normal person would NEVER even contemplate being, and that's where you need to be.
</div></div>
And that's exactly where I would go first, to look for sign.....just sayin'. </div></div>
I guess that greatly depends on the tracker, the experience level of the person doing the tracking, if you are even being tracked, if the tracker has a place to start, if he has any idea on the location to which you are moving to, etc.
Let's not get to wrapped around the axle here, you don't have any Malasian Mantrackers or Tommy Lee Jones looking for you. If you know you are being tracked, the best idea, keeping in mind that you are not going to fool an experienced tracker with BS techniques like wearing bigfoot pattern footwear, walking backwards, or dragging brush behind you, you will have to circle back and setup an ambush location for the person tracking you.
Real easy to say "that's exactly were I would look.....just sayin" when you know that you are indeed looking for someone and you possibly carry the same mindset of that person. More often than not, you will be operating in an area undetected and your enemy, if you done everything correct, wont or shouldn't know you even there. And if you chose to operate way off the beaten path, they will continue to not know you are there. But i guess you would suggest walking right down the middle of the trail dragging a piece of sage brush behind you and hoping that it snows to cover your tracks by morning, so all the bad guys who travel that same easy route everyday won't see your lazy ass tracks.
...........just sayin
Re: Moving in the snow
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Seth8541</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Seth8541</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Base your route on where the normal person would NEVER even contemplate being, and that's where you need to be.
</div></div>
And that's exactly where I would go first, to look for sign.....just sayin'. </div></div>
I guess that greatly depends on the tracker, the experience level of the person doing the tracking, if you are even being tracked, if the tracker has a place to start, if he has any idea on the location to which you are moving to, etc.
Let's not get to wrapped around the axle here, you don't have any Malasian Mantrackers or Tommy Lee Jones looking for you. If you know you are being tracked, the best idea, keeping in mind that you are not going to fool an experienced tracker with BS techniques like wearing bigfoot pattern footwear, walking backwards, or dragging brush behind you, you will have to circle back and setup an ambush location for the person tracking you.
Real easy to say "that's exactly were I would look.....just sayin" when you know that you are indeed looking for someone and you possibly carry the same mindset of that person. More often than not, you will be operating in an area undetected and your enemy, if you done everything correct, wont or shouldn't know you even there. And if you chose to operate way off the beaten path, they will continue to not know you are there. But i guess you would suggest walking right down the middle of the trail dragging a piece of sage brush behind you and hoping that it snows to cover your tracks by morning, so all the bad guys who travel that same easy route everyday won't see your lazy ass tracks.
...........just sayin </div></div>
You assume WAY too much, that's more than plainly obvious.....
It's like a huge duh to say travel where you'd be least expected, as anyone with half a lick of sense would be looking there first. But hey, your opinion is still valid, if only to you. The key here, is to be DAMN good at what you do.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Seth8541</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Seth8541</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Base your route on where the normal person would NEVER even contemplate being, and that's where you need to be.
</div></div>
And that's exactly where I would go first, to look for sign.....just sayin'. </div></div>
I guess that greatly depends on the tracker, the experience level of the person doing the tracking, if you are even being tracked, if the tracker has a place to start, if he has any idea on the location to which you are moving to, etc.
Let's not get to wrapped around the axle here, you don't have any Malasian Mantrackers or Tommy Lee Jones looking for you. If you know you are being tracked, the best idea, keeping in mind that you are not going to fool an experienced tracker with BS techniques like wearing bigfoot pattern footwear, walking backwards, or dragging brush behind you, you will have to circle back and setup an ambush location for the person tracking you.
Real easy to say "that's exactly were I would look.....just sayin" when you know that you are indeed looking for someone and you possibly carry the same mindset of that person. More often than not, you will be operating in an area undetected and your enemy, if you done everything correct, wont or shouldn't know you even there. And if you chose to operate way off the beaten path, they will continue to not know you are there. But i guess you would suggest walking right down the middle of the trail dragging a piece of sage brush behind you and hoping that it snows to cover your tracks by morning, so all the bad guys who travel that same easy route everyday won't see your lazy ass tracks.
...........just sayin </div></div>
You assume WAY too much, that's more than plainly obvious.....
It's like a huge duh to say travel where you'd be least expected, as anyone with half a lick of sense would be looking there first. But hey, your opinion is still valid, if only to you. The key here, is to be DAMN good at what you do.
S
Seth8541
Guest
Re: Moving in the snow
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Seth8541</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Seth8541</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Base your route on where the normal person would NEVER even contemplate being, and that's where you need to be.
</div></div>
And that's exactly where I would go first, to look for sign.....just sayin'. </div></div>
I guess that greatly depends on the tracker, the experience level of the person doing the tracking, if you are even being tracked, if the tracker has a place to start, if he has any idea on the location to which you are moving to, etc.
Let's not get to wrapped around the axle here, you don't have any Malasian Mantrackers or Tommy Lee Jones looking for you. If you know you are being tracked, the best idea, keeping in mind that you are not going to fool an experienced tracker with BS techniques like wearing bigfoot pattern footwear, walking backwards, or dragging brush behind you, you will have to circle back and setup an ambush location for the person tracking you.
Real easy to say "that's exactly were I would look.....just sayin" when you know that you are indeed looking for someone and you possibly carry the same mindset of that person. More often than not, you will be operating in an area undetected and your enemy, if you done everything correct, wont or shouldn't know you even there. And if you chose to operate way off the beaten path, they will continue to not know you are there. But i guess you would suggest walking right down the middle of the trail dragging a piece of sage brush behind you and hoping that it snows to cover your tracks by morning, so all the bad guys who travel that same easy route everyday won't see your lazy ass tracks.
...........just sayin </div></div>
You assume WAY too much, that's more than plainly obvious.....
It's like a huge duh to say travel where you'd be least expected, as anyone with half a lick of sense would be looking there first. But hey, your opinion is still valid, if only to you. The key here, is to be DAMN good at what you do. </div></div>
Okay............you go ahead and employ your counter tracking techniques on a decent tracker and we'll see how far that gets you.
Why do you think clandestine units operate in the thickest, steepest, most God awful terrain possible (ie not ridgelines, creeks, any type of trail, fence lines etc)? Because no one will be there to find you out. Nobody will be there to pick up your sign.
There is a reason why they are called "natural lines of drift", its because if you ate not fully aware of them, you will naturally begin to follow them. People and animals are lazy creatures. They want to take the easy route. If you are conscience of these, then you will be able to stay away from them, hence not leaving any sign that will be found.
That being said, there is a difference between being tracked by Joe blow grunt and being tracked by an experienced tracker. No amount of trying to cover your tracks is going to throw the experienced tracker off tour trail. He can tell if your walking backwards, he can tell if tour brushing tour tracks, he can tell if you are wearing a heavy pack or not. I've worked with the Malasian Mantrackers, and even they needed a starting point to find your sign, but when they did get it they would be waiting for you at tour objective when you arrived. And this is after 2 hours of a headstart we had on them.
So my opinion is only valid to me, but that makes it no less important as a key for clandestine individual movement. Kinda like saying one of the fundamentals of marksmanship is the obvious issue and no one ever forgets to implement them on every shot.
If you are in a hostile environment, and feel that you are or may have a tracker on your trail, the best idea is to circle back on, your tracks and set up an ambush for your tracker.
You say, its ridiculous for me to state the obvious, I say your gonna need to put somemore effort into your answers of ;
"just be good at what you do"
and
" lots of ways to skin this cat"
and
"That's the first place I would look......just sayin"
Your a dumb ass. I know your type, don't have any advise or input but your the first one to critique everyone else's.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Seth8541</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Seth8541</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Base your route on where the normal person would NEVER even contemplate being, and that's where you need to be.
</div></div>
And that's exactly where I would go first, to look for sign.....just sayin'. </div></div>
I guess that greatly depends on the tracker, the experience level of the person doing the tracking, if you are even being tracked, if the tracker has a place to start, if he has any idea on the location to which you are moving to, etc.
Let's not get to wrapped around the axle here, you don't have any Malasian Mantrackers or Tommy Lee Jones looking for you. If you know you are being tracked, the best idea, keeping in mind that you are not going to fool an experienced tracker with BS techniques like wearing bigfoot pattern footwear, walking backwards, or dragging brush behind you, you will have to circle back and setup an ambush location for the person tracking you.
Real easy to say "that's exactly were I would look.....just sayin" when you know that you are indeed looking for someone and you possibly carry the same mindset of that person. More often than not, you will be operating in an area undetected and your enemy, if you done everything correct, wont or shouldn't know you even there. And if you chose to operate way off the beaten path, they will continue to not know you are there. But i guess you would suggest walking right down the middle of the trail dragging a piece of sage brush behind you and hoping that it snows to cover your tracks by morning, so all the bad guys who travel that same easy route everyday won't see your lazy ass tracks.
...........just sayin </div></div>
You assume WAY too much, that's more than plainly obvious.....
It's like a huge duh to say travel where you'd be least expected, as anyone with half a lick of sense would be looking there first. But hey, your opinion is still valid, if only to you. The key here, is to be DAMN good at what you do. </div></div>
Okay............you go ahead and employ your counter tracking techniques on a decent tracker and we'll see how far that gets you.
Why do you think clandestine units operate in the thickest, steepest, most God awful terrain possible (ie not ridgelines, creeks, any type of trail, fence lines etc)? Because no one will be there to find you out. Nobody will be there to pick up your sign.
There is a reason why they are called "natural lines of drift", its because if you ate not fully aware of them, you will naturally begin to follow them. People and animals are lazy creatures. They want to take the easy route. If you are conscience of these, then you will be able to stay away from them, hence not leaving any sign that will be found.
That being said, there is a difference between being tracked by Joe blow grunt and being tracked by an experienced tracker. No amount of trying to cover your tracks is going to throw the experienced tracker off tour trail. He can tell if your walking backwards, he can tell if tour brushing tour tracks, he can tell if you are wearing a heavy pack or not. I've worked with the Malasian Mantrackers, and even they needed a starting point to find your sign, but when they did get it they would be waiting for you at tour objective when you arrived. And this is after 2 hours of a headstart we had on them.
So my opinion is only valid to me, but that makes it no less important as a key for clandestine individual movement. Kinda like saying one of the fundamentals of marksmanship is the obvious issue and no one ever forgets to implement them on every shot.
If you are in a hostile environment, and feel that you are or may have a tracker on your trail, the best idea is to circle back on, your tracks and set up an ambush for your tracker.
You say, its ridiculous for me to state the obvious, I say your gonna need to put somemore effort into your answers of ;
"just be good at what you do"
and
" lots of ways to skin this cat"
and
"That's the first place I would look......just sayin"
Your a dumb ass. I know your type, don't have any advise or input but your the first one to critique everyone else's.
Re: Moving in the snow
I'm not going to get into a pissin' contest, I'm not in the game now, I was adressing most of my comments on winter camping for pleasure more then anything else.
BUT:
The villages in the north are 100 miles or more apart, if you to travel overland, and don't get caught, its because no one is looking. You can't hide ski or snow shoe tracks that far. It don't take a profesional tracker to cut your trail. The way the (NG) Eskimos did it was to circle the village, they'd pick up the trail.
You go the ruff terrian route you have a lot more problems, Avalanches, overflows, etc. Traveling at night is going to make it worse, but then again its mostly night up there during the winter anyway.
Only way you can do it is by air, parachute in and get extracted after you do what you have to do.
But you arn't gonna do it cross country if anyone suspects your there.
Any way, makes no difference to me, I doubt with my age and lungs I would so a 100 mile ski trip today if I had to.
I'm not going to get into a pissin' contest, I'm not in the game now, I was adressing most of my comments on winter camping for pleasure more then anything else.
BUT:
The villages in the north are 100 miles or more apart, if you to travel overland, and don't get caught, its because no one is looking. You can't hide ski or snow shoe tracks that far. It don't take a profesional tracker to cut your trail. The way the (NG) Eskimos did it was to circle the village, they'd pick up the trail.
You go the ruff terrian route you have a lot more problems, Avalanches, overflows, etc. Traveling at night is going to make it worse, but then again its mostly night up there during the winter anyway.
Only way you can do it is by air, parachute in and get extracted after you do what you have to do.
But you arn't gonna do it cross country if anyone suspects your there.
Any way, makes no difference to me, I doubt with my age and lungs I would so a 100 mile ski trip today if I had to.
S
Seth8541
Guest
Re: Moving in the snow
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not going to get into a pissin' contest, I'm not in the game now, I was adressing most of my comments on winter camping for pleasure more then anything else.
BUT:
The villages in the north are 100 miles or more apart, if you to travel overland, and don't get caught, its because no one is looking. You can't hide ski or snow shoe tracks that far. It don't take a profesional tracker to cut your trail. The way the (NG) Eskimos did it was to circle the village, they'd pick up the trail.
You go the ruff terrian route you have a lot more problems, Avalanches, overflows, etc. Traveling at night is going to make it worse, but then again its mostly night up there during the winter anyway.
Only way you can do it is by air, parachute in and get extracted after you do what you have to do.
But you arn't gonna do it cross country if anyone suspects your there.
Any way, makes no difference to me, I doubt with my age and lungs I would so a 100 mile ski trip today if I had to. </div></div>
I agree 100%
It is a give and take situation. There is a route less traveled for a reason. Its difficulty, and the safety aspects, but along the easier route you risk more getting compromised. Like I said its give and take. What is more important to you? What risks are you willing to take to take? Situation dictates as well. Do they have dogs, experienced trackers, helicopters? Are they expecting you? Do they know you are there?
All these dictate the precautions you will need to take. An experienced tracker will find you. It's just a matter of how long it will take him and what you ate going to do when he finds you.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not going to get into a pissin' contest, I'm not in the game now, I was adressing most of my comments on winter camping for pleasure more then anything else.
BUT:
The villages in the north are 100 miles or more apart, if you to travel overland, and don't get caught, its because no one is looking. You can't hide ski or snow shoe tracks that far. It don't take a profesional tracker to cut your trail. The way the (NG) Eskimos did it was to circle the village, they'd pick up the trail.
You go the ruff terrian route you have a lot more problems, Avalanches, overflows, etc. Traveling at night is going to make it worse, but then again its mostly night up there during the winter anyway.
Only way you can do it is by air, parachute in and get extracted after you do what you have to do.
But you arn't gonna do it cross country if anyone suspects your there.
Any way, makes no difference to me, I doubt with my age and lungs I would so a 100 mile ski trip today if I had to. </div></div>
I agree 100%
It is a give and take situation. There is a route less traveled for a reason. Its difficulty, and the safety aspects, but along the easier route you risk more getting compromised. Like I said its give and take. What is more important to you? What risks are you willing to take to take? Situation dictates as well. Do they have dogs, experienced trackers, helicopters? Are they expecting you? Do they know you are there?
All these dictate the precautions you will need to take. An experienced tracker will find you. It's just a matter of how long it will take him and what you ate going to do when he finds you.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Moving in the snow
Remember this,
(1) Any one can be tracked, any place at anytime.
(2) Any tracker or their team can be put down.
The objectives distance from the L/D, the terrain an weather between, the COTT, your an your enemy's assets an abilitys*, all play into how you proceed/deviate once you kick off.
Leaving tracks means nothing, if they are not found an analyzed correctly, within a meaningful time frame.
*Their mobilization time.
Remember this,
(1) Any one can be tracked, any place at anytime.
(2) Any tracker or their team can be put down.
The objectives distance from the L/D, the terrain an weather between, the COTT, your an your enemy's assets an abilitys*, all play into how you proceed/deviate once you kick off.
Leaving tracks means nothing, if they are not found an analyzed correctly, within a meaningful time frame.
*Their mobilization time.
