Myth, Opinion, or Fact? Grains to gun.

C

Cfl Mike

Private
Minuteman
May 26, 2011
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0
38
The Land of Nod
#1
Hi I have a little bit of possibly a confusing question (which is why it was hard for me to search else where on line). Before I bought my new bolt action rifle I did some research, not just on the gun, but on the ammo. For some reason some people would talk about how the gun shot better with lighter grain ammo. So my question is, is something like that just myth or opinion or do different guns actually handle heavier loads different from each other. Now to add to that lets assume the guns we would be comparing are all the same caliber, bolt action, same type of barrel but brand might change, and overall similar in shape and stance.

Now the reason I ask this is because I plan on reloading (btw its 30-06, incase you have some advice to throw my way). From the research I have done it seems like in general, when shooting at long distances (I will be using it for 600 yards) its better to use a heavier bullet. So what these people who have wrote reviews about this gun just spraying myth? matter of preference? or some kind of fact? It just seems to me like it shouldnt really make difference gun wise for what bullets weigh, to have a "better" shot just because of the gun.

BTW ANY ADVICE ON RELOADING 30-06 FOR LONG RANGE WOULD BE APPRECIATED AS WELL!!!

THANKS! In advance.
 
#4
Re: Myth, Opinion, or Fact? Grains to gun.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cfl Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> So what these people who have wrote reviews about this gun just spraying myth? matter of preference? or some kind of fact? </div></div>

Heavier bullets have more recoil and require better form to shoot accurately. It may not seem like much but it is.
 
#5
Re: Myth, Opinion, or Fact? Grains to gun.

.30-06 is perfectly capable of shooting super phuqing good. The relation is more specific to caliber, bullet weight, bullet design and rifling twist rate. Add a dash of freebore and properly prepped piece of brass and bake at 350degrees until crispy on top.

Most all factory guns in .30-06 are going to be a 1-10 twist which is ideal for the heavier bullets (most of the time). 180 is considered perfect for 1-10 .30 cal. There are so many factors to address, at 4:59 I don't have time but I'm sure others will chime in here. My 1-10 .30-06 with bullets seated properly for the chamber will shoot 150, 165, 175 and 180 perfectly well.
Spray? Are they shooting a 1919?
 
#6
Re: Myth, Opinion, or Fact? Grains to gun.

I have an Apache Custom 30-06 with a 1-10 twist Krieger #17 contour, fluted. The reamer print is an exact copy of German Salazar's Serengetti 30-06 reamer. My go to load for long range is 55.5gr of H4350 and a 190gr SMK. I would start at about 52gr H4350 and work up from there using either Lapua or Lake City brass and a BR-2 primer bullet seated .010" off the lands.
 
#7
Re: Myth, Opinion, or Fact? Grains to gun.

Even guns of the exact same make, model and spec will shoot different. Tooling may have been freshly cleaned, or later in processing where it was near the tolerance of needing to be cleaned. Different person or conditions during assembly.

Same spec guns from different manufacturers all depend on attention to detail and tolerance limitation. Maybe an easy comparison is in the hands of the same skilled shooter, will a $350 RIA 1911 perform as well as a Wilson Combat?

My buddy just fell upon a custom 30-06 and pointed him to German Salazar's blog page. Very distinguished shooter & huge fan of the 30-06. This goes directly to his 30-06 link compilation ... includes history, discussion, comparison, load development, etc.

Rifleman's Journal .30-06 Reference
 
#8
Re: Myth, Opinion, or Fact? Grains to gun.

What is light and what is heavy? The twist of a tube has a bearing on the ideal weight of the projo. Theorecally, the faster twist barrels will stabilize heavier bullets, up to a point.

So, yes, it is possible. All barrels are a little different, to. There is a chance that the particular rifle tested may like different bullets than yours.
 
#9
Re: Myth, Opinion, or Fact? Grains to gun.

Right I know different guns of different qualities will shoot differently, but what I am asking is, quality and all other factors aside, why would any 30-06 rifle shoot a 150 gr. bullet "better" than a 180 gr.? I know different loads have different uses but assume for this instance we are just using it to shoot 200 yard paper targets.
 
#10
Re: Myth, Opinion, or Fact? Grains to gun.

I know what you are asking and I know the condition exists because I have seen it myself. German can answer that question for sure. He uses 3 different loads in his 30-06 one for short, mid range and long range. I don't think it has anything to do with twist rate. I would guess it has to do with the manner in which bullets perform at different ranges. I struggle with my 190gr bullets at 100yds, can't shoot a dot drill with that load to save my ass. Stretch that same load out to 300 and you are looking at holding one third MOA all the way to 1000yd and beyond. If I drop back to a lighter bullet my short range accuracy increases but longer ranges suffer. I have heard theories about why and I have had people deny that it existed blaming the shooter, the scope, the rifle, anything. I saw this for the first time when I began shooting 1000yd BR. If you are testing loads to be used at long range you are wasting your time at 100yds, start at 300 and work your way out.
 
#11
Re: Myth, Opinion, or Fact? Grains to gun.

The very complex answer is a study of physics & ballistics -- here's how complex the always user-friendly Wikipedia gets: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_ballistics

Two recommendations:

(1) Pick up a few good reloading manuals because they provide you the level of info you will need to satisfy your learning process, and allow you to safely develop handloads

(2) For question specific details, read German's article where he tests different loads in a 1:13 barrel: http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/06/ballistics-heavy-bullets-in-113-twist.html

IMHO, the basics to understand are
(1) Lighter bullets require faster velocity to stabilize
(2) Heavier bullets require faster twist to stabilize
(3) Aerodynamic factor is measured by Ballistic Coefficient--higher BC = more aerodynamic
(4) Every bullet is not built equal--match rounds are more expensive & accurate because they are manufactured to highly consistent standards. Uniformity = repeatable accuracy
(5) Faster bullets are less affected by gravity--less dope required
(6) Heavier bullets buck wind better

For 30 cal reloading, start your research with the following 3 bullet weights:
(1) 155gr - reliable to 1000 yards+
(2) 168gr - reliable to 600 yards
(3) 175gr - reliable to 1000 yards+

There's no generic answer why a 150gr shoots better than 180gr:
- Proper charge/powder to reach stable velocity
- Proper barrel twist rate
- Higher quality bullet
- Consistent load components (e.g., brass prep)
- Better shooter
- Weather
- etc
 
#12
Re: Myth, Opinion, or Fact? Grains to gun.

Pick a bullet based off what you want to do with it, check to see if it is compatible with your twist rate, and work up a load. If accuracy is acceptable, just roll with it. Personally to me a 30/06 at 600 would be a laser pushing a 155 scenar, or the Berger full bore. Or if you want to strech it out the 208 amax, or other new heavies. The 06 is very versatile. A 10 twist will shoot just about any of the .30 cal projectiles.
 
#13
Re: Myth, Opinion, or Fact? Grains to gun.

Sorry not trying to be an asshole here or anything (yea I didnt phrase my questions quite as well either), but thats not exactly what im asking. Although I do appreciate that input and I will be putting it to good use soon.

Basically what I am asking is, imagine you have 2 guns that are very much a like, but lets just slap different brand names on the for the hell of it. They both have 24" free floats, both same caliber, both bolt action, weight is somewhat similar, and the stock is kind of similar. Now is a person was to in general gun #1 shot better with lighter grain bullets (forget range, not an issue here) than heavier grain bullets. At the same time a different person with gun #2 shooting at the same distance as the first shooter says, his shot better with heavier grain bullets as compared to lighter grain bullets. Both shooting in the same conditions in the same format.

Now would there be any truth to what they were saying or is this pretty much all based on opinion? Or can very very small differences in the guns make this somewhat factual?
 
#15
Re: Myth, Opinion, or Fact? Grains to gun.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cfl Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry not trying to be an asshole here or anything (yea I didnt phrase my questions quite as well either), but thats not exactly what im asking. Although I do appreciate that input and I will be putting it to good use soon.

Basically what I am asking is, imagine you have 2 guns that are very much a like, but lets just slap different brand names on the for the hell of it. They both have 24" free floats, both same caliber, both bolt action, weight is somewhat similar, and the stock is kind of similar. Now is a person was to in general gun #1 shot better with lighter grain bullets (forget range, not an issue here) than heavier grain bullets. At the same time a different person with gun #2 shooting at the same distance as the first shooter says, his shot better with heavier grain bullets as compared to lighter grain bullets. Both shooting in the same conditions in the same format.

Now would there be any truth to what they were saying or is this pretty much all based on opinion? Or can very very small differences in the guns make this somewhat factual? </div></div>

You can take two rifles off the same assembly line and find that each one likes a different load best. There is no pat answer - there are individual projectiles that are likely to work well, and those likely to suck, but no guarantees on either. Go into it expecting a certain result, and you're certain to be surprised.
 
#16
Re: Myth, Opinion, or Fact? Grains to gun.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know what you are asking and I know the condition exists because I have seen it myself. German can answer that question for sure. He uses 3 different loads in his 30-06 one for short, mid range and long range. I don't think it has anything to do with twist rate. I would guess it has to do with the manner in which bullets perform at different ranges. I struggle with my 190gr bullets at 100yds, can't shoot a dot drill with that load to save my ass. Stretch that same load out to 300 and you are looking at holding one third MOA all the way to 1000yd and beyond. If I drop back to a lighter bullet my short range accuracy increases but longer ranges suffer. I have heard theories about why and I have had people deny that it existed blaming the shooter, the scope, the rifle, anything. I saw this for the first time when I began shooting 1000yd BR. If you are testing loads to be used at long range you are wasting your time at 100yds, start at 300 and work your way out. </div></div>

I've experienced the same thing in similar ways. Well said and true.
 
#17
Re: Myth, Opinion, or Fact? Grains to gun.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cfl Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry not trying to be an asshole here or anything (yea I didnt phrase my questions quite as well either), but thats not exactly what im asking. Although I do appreciate that input and I will be putting it to good use soon.

Basically what I am asking is, imagine you have 2 guns that are very much a like, but lets just slap different brand names on the for the hell of it. They both have 24" free floats, both same caliber, both bolt action, weight is somewhat similar, and the stock is kind of similar. Now is a person was to in general gun #1 shot better with lighter grain bullets (forget range, not an issue here) than heavier grain bullets. At the same time a different person with gun #2 shooting at the same distance as the first shooter says, his shot better with heavier grain bullets as compared to lighter grain bullets. Both shooting in the same conditions in the same format.

Now would there be any truth to what they were saying or is this pretty much all based on opinion? Or can very very small differences in the guns make this somewhat factual? </div></div>

IMO this is often a case of folks trying factory ammo to find one that shoots well, if they could vary the powder and seating depth by hand loading, the bullet weight that "would not work" could function well
 
#18
Re: Myth, Opinion, or Fact? Grains to gun.

You still don't mention rifling. You can have two rifles that look absolutely identical with different rifling twists and they will almost assuredly show a preference for different weight bullets. As has been said even two rifles that are made on the same line to the same set of TOLERANCES, meaning they are not truly identical, may show a preference for different weight bullets. As was also said handloading can often overcome this, as long as the projectile is not too far from what the rifling will stabilize.
 
#19
Re: Myth, Opinion, or Fact? Grains to gun.

You have a couple of factors to address here without going down the long road of saying that the guns and shooters are identical.

To say that one boolet shoots better than the other in a specific platform is predicated on a bunch of things. Particularly if you are trying to make one POWDER work for both boolets you will more than likely only optimize one of the boolets. All the vagaries of reloading come into play at this time also, seating depth, neck tension etc.

Then you have the shooter. Sitting behind a 30-06 when driving 208's or 210's at max pressure is a whole lot more abusive to the shooter than doing the same with a 155.

Then there is the range (distance). This is where gyroscopic stability and twist rate comes in. A heavy may not stabilize at the given velocity for quite a bit of distance. My 06' with a 210/208 is well below 1/2 MOA accurate at 300 but at 100 it is barely a 3/4" gun. With 175's it's sub 1/2 MOA accurate out to about 600 yards and then things get fuzzy due to the atmospherics and the shooter. At 1100 yards the 175 is starting to fall apart but the 210/208 is still hammering it.

Taking all of these variables into account will give you the answer you seek. In other words if you need a hyper accurate round inside of 500yds you may want to look at lighter boolets. If you need the same accuracy but need it to start at 500 yards a heavy may be a better choice.

In Brian Litz's 1st book he touched on the concept but IMHO didn't go far enough down the road. I don't have #2 but do wonder if he expanded this section.

.02 from the cheap seats.

Cheers,

Doc
 
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