Rifle Scopes Need Advice regarding S&B Purchase

[daved]

I've decided to spring for an S&B to complete my 6.5 CM build. I intend to use the rifle for shooting steel, probably no more than 1000-1200 yds, and possibly some low level F-Class competition. I done some searches and got a few recommendations, and the scope that's most frequently mentioned is the 5-25x56 PMII. But I keep getting the feeling that this may be overkill and that a smaller package like a 3-12x50 may be perfectly adequate for my purposes.

So, time to seek expert advice! I'd appreciate any thoughts on the suitability of a 5-25x56 PMII LP, CCW, 0.1mrad, DT, H2CMR for my needs and specifically if there any drawbacks to that configuration that I may have overlooked.

I'd also appreciate any suggestions as to a S&B dealers, and specifically if there are any that stand out both in terms of pricing as well as customer service.

Thanks,

Dave

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

I own the PMII 5-25x56 with MTC, LT and MSR reticle.

Going out to 1000 - 1200 yards requires the 25x scope, period. With only 12x you will lose a lot of detail and information, such as mirage readings and spotting. In the last competition, I used mostly 10-15 out to 600 yards, then 20x out to 800 yards and finally 25x to 1000 plus. The extra magnification is very key.

Otherwise, everything else in your setup appears good. The other items are mostly preference. I would only recommend the MSR reticle since it is more versatile and easier for wind calls. My friend (who scored 22nd place at the Sniper's Hide Cup) and I used the MSR reticle to perfection. We were so glad we had that reticle. It was very easy to use. But this also falls under user preference.

As to dealers, I purchased mine from EuroOptic. They were really great. Easy to work with and helpful, even helping me with setup once it arrived.

 

[ZiaHunter]

+1 on the 5-25x56 and have one mounted on a 6.5 CM. It has the H59 reticle as well as other scopes with the MSR and like both of them. They both work very well for holds.

 

[Rob01]

Going out to 1000 - 1200 yards requires the 25x scope, period. With only 12x you will lose a lot of detail and information, such as mirage readings and spotting. In the last competition, I used mostly 10-15 out to 600 yards, then 20x out to 800 yards and finally 25x to 1000 plus. The extra magnification is very key.

Otherwise, everything else in your setup appears good. The other items are mostly preference. I would only recommend the MSR reticle since it is more versatile and easier for wind calls. My friend (who scored 22nd place at the Sniper's Hide Cup) and I used the MSR reticle to perfection. We were so glad we had that reticle. It was very easy to use. But this also falls under user preference.

As to dealers, I purchased mine from EuroOptic. They were really great. Easy to work with and helpful, even helping me with setup once it arrived.

You don't need 25x to shoot that far but sometimes it's nice to have. You can always dial the 5-25x down to 12x but you can't final the 12x up. I have had multiples of both and the 5-25 is a better, more versitile power range. Alot of times mirage kills the ability to use it at the higher powers but you can just dial down. I have shot to 2500 yards with a 408 Chey Tac on 17x without a problem seeing the target so 25x isn't needed but again nice tyo have when needed. When I shot the SH Cup a couple years back and there were shots to around 1100 yards the mirage cut the ability to use anything over about 12x but could still see and hit. I actually use the higher power at closer ranges when seeing smaller detail on targets at matches.

The H2CMR reticle is actually broken down into finer graduations, .2 mils, on the windage so it's more precise than the MSR when using it for wind or mover holds. The MSR is basically the P4F with some upgrades like the "L" miling bracket but the H2CMR will break down to .1 mil on the reticle as well. Also no extra charge for the H2CMR for licensing fees. But reticles are personal preference as you mentioned. OP the H2CMR will work for you if it is what you like.

Euro Optic is a great place to buy from.

Daved, have you looked at the Vortex 4.5-27x as well? If not in a rush you might want to wait a month until they start hitting the streets and you get reports. Might save you a good amount of money and get you an excellent optic as well.

 

[map_it]

Based on PM from both "NevadaZielmister" and "Rob01" I went with 5-25x56 with the H2CMR Reticle and with the 0.1 Mil break down for milling between the "#3 and #4 Mil-Dots, the Hollow Mil-Dots and the .2 Mil breakdown of the Horizontal on the reticle is just perfect for the Precision Rifle Game.

I've hunted my whole life and after I picked up a used Non-Illuminated S&B 4-16x50 for my GAP Rock Rifle for Hunting I was toast and I had to add the 5-25x56's on our 6mm Tactical Rifles.

IMO everyone seems to be raking S&B over the coals for the 2 year warranty and not listening to shooter input but if you can wiggle the funds loose and secure a S&B I personally do not think you will regret it.

Things break and companies are not perfect but shooting the Mover Stage at K&M with a H2CRM Reticle is about as close to "Total Bliss" as possible.


That being said after competing in my first match the most useful tool the most important part of the equation is YOU. It is NOT the Horse but it is the Indian that hits the 1MOA Target at 800 yards on the move un-supported with a Tootsie Roll Pop hanging out of their mouth.........

But all that said...

"You can have my H2CRM Reticle when you try it from my cold dead hands"

 

[daved]

Thanks for the input, guys.

I've seen the comment about the MSR being similar to or a refined P4L elsewhere. I've also read/been told that the P4L is better for dialed-in static shooting such as bench rest or F-Class whereas the H2CMR is more suitable for dynamic field situations where sighting adjustments are made using hold changes. Does its similarity to the P4L mean that the MSR is also more suited for static situations and dialed in sight changes? Or is it "improved" enough over the P4L that it is equal to the H2CMR for dynamic situations?

After printing out and comparing the reticle data sheets for the H2CMR and MSR I can see why the former allows for more precise adjustments. But it seems awfully "busy" - all the little circles and hash marks. Is that something you get used to?

Thanks again---

 

[map_it]

daved,

I got used to it fairly quickly.....
Everybody has their preference and if you have time to dial then all of the busy reticle goes away.

On the Hold Over stage for what it is worth and trust you me I'm not that good of a shot both days I went 8 for 8 and the H2CRM has exactly what you need and nothing you don't.

I believe it was designed by a couple of European Competitive Shooters unless I'm mistaken.....

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

Thanks for the input, guys.

I've seen the comment about the MSR being similar to or a refined P4L elsewhere. I've also read/been told that the P4L is better for dialed-in static shooting such as bench rest or F-Class whereas the H2CMR is more suitable for dynamic field situations where sighting adjustments are made using hold changes. Does its similarity to the P4L mean that the MSR is also more suited for static situations and dialed in sight changes? Or is it "improved" enough over the P4L that it is equal to the H2CMR for dynamic situations?

After printing out and comparing the reticle data sheets for the H2CMR and MSR I can see why the former allows for more precise adjustments. But it seems awfully "busy" - all the little circles and hash marks. Is that something you get used to?

Thanks again---

Here is a very good youtube video from my friend Thomas Haugland. He really understands and shows how easy the MSR reticle is to use:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4YD_-ZqI4o

Meanwhile, having too many hash marks makes for a counting experience. When you are in a hurry and under time pressure, you do not have time to count. You want to get right to the general area and then refine. The MSR is perfect for that. But, remember, I have no experience with the H2CMR reticle. My friend map_it is happy with his H2CMR.

Good luck and let us know what you decide!!

 

[Rob01]

Thanks for the input, guys.

I've seen the comment about the MSR being similar to or a refined P4L elsewhere. I've also read/been told that the P4L is better for dialed-in static shooting such as bench rest or F-Class whereas the H2CMR is more suitable for dynamic field situations where sighting adjustments are made using hold changes. Does its similarity to the P4L mean that the MSR is also more suited for static situations and dialed in sight changes? Or is it "improved" enough over the P4L that it is equal to the H2CMR for dynamic situations?

After printing out and comparing the reticle data sheets for the H2CMR and MSR I can see why the former allows for more precise adjustments. But it seems awfully "busy" - all the little circles and hash marks. Is that something you get used to?

Thanks again---

The H2CMR is only busy in the data sheets. It can be used in static and dynamic situations equally. Once you start using it you will see how easy and precise it can be. Having used both the P4F and H2CMR in competition, I would take the H2CMR any day of the week.

Posted these pics a bunch of times but here they are again. 8" round steel at 400 yards with H2CMR
25x

20x

15x

10x

5x


P4F, no 20x pic in this reticle
25x

15x

10x

5x

 

[Trevor300wsm]

Get the S&B 5-25.....just do it.
Get the H2CMR reticle. The "it's too busy" bullshit is just that....it's very popular for a reason.
Get the best equipment you can for the purpose you intend to use it. Then master your equipment, don't be intimidated by it.

When I picked up another S&B at the first of this year, Chris at Sport Optics beat all the other dealers hands down.

 

[steve123]

.2 mil hash's on the reticle come in handy. If I weren't into the H-59 so much I'd be looking at the H2CMR.

 

[map_it]

I got my last one at Third Geneation a Shooting Supply as they had a few units left over from 2013.

I actually ask my Eye Doctor if the H2CMR could be super imposed in my dominate shooting cornea during my pending LASAK Surgery but be just looked at me funny...??

 

[BullyDog]

Go with the 5-25x56mm or the new 5-27x56mm. Them and the old Premier Reticle 5-25x56mm are the best scopes on the market, Period. Look at the new Tangent Theta, will be available around this time. Its an improved Premier Reticle, but retails at $4200. All of these are German glass if not mistaken. Hensoldt cost way to much. Stenier 5-25x56mm would be a good compromise to all the above, with price as a concern. My two cents. I own a Premier.

 

[daved]

Sorry, Guys, for not engaging in a back and forth - I've literally been spending all my spare time on the H2CMR vs MSR question.

So final decision - S&B 5-25x56 PMII L/P DT FFP MRAD CCW with (drum roll) the MSR reticle.

Thanks to everyone for their input. And for those that recommended the H2CMR reticle, you may have a chance to say "I told you so" if I get into competitive events.

For those that recommended EuroOptic, you absolutely correct - great people to work with.

Now to find some Seekins rings-----

Thanks again---

Dave

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

Sorry, Guys, for not engaging in a back and forth - I've literally been spending all my spare time on the H2CMR vs MSR question.

So final decision - S&B 5-25x56 PMII L/P DT FFP MRAD CCW with (drum roll) the MSR reticle.

Thanks to everyone for their input. And for those that recommended the H2CMR reticle, you may have a chance to say "I told you so" if I get into competitive events.

For those that recommended EuroOptic, you absolutely correct - great people to work with.

Now to find some Seekins rings-----

Thanks again---

Dave

Don't worry, you will not regret the MSR reticle choice. I have not heard of anyone regretting theirs. Good luck. If you ever make it up to Reno, hit me up. Meanwhile, our next Long Range Varmint Silhouette match is this Saturday. It is a monthly thing usually the 2nd Saturday of every month. You are invited, being a follow Nevadan.

 

[map_it]

NevadaZielmeister,

I want to come but atlas SW Florida needs a little more surveying first....

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

NevadaZielmeister,

I want to come but atlas SW Florida needs a little more surveying first....

Bummer. Oh well, Sniper's Hide Cup next year, right?

 

[map_it]

Yep........

 

[sib1948]

Sorry, Guys, for not engaging in a back and forth - I've literally been spending all my spare time on the H2CMR vs MSR question.

So final decision - S&B 5-25x56 PMII L/P DT FFP MRAD CCW with (drum roll) the MSR reticle.

Thanks to everyone for their input. And for those that recommended the H2CMR reticle, you may have a chance to say "I told you so" if I get into competitive events.

For those that recommended EuroOptic, you absolutely correct - great people to work with.

Now to find some Seekins rings-----

Thanks again---

Dave

Exactly what I have and loving it every time I go to the range. I know you'll be pleased. Enjoy! Got mine from Chris at SportOptics.

 

[BullyDog]

K&M

NevadaZielmeister,

I want to come but atlas SW Florida needs a little more surveying first....