PRS Talk Negligent Discharges Need To Stop!

[Changed]

The more video we have the more this will demonstrate the issues I have been complaining about. With the series competing for eyeballs against each other, the amount of media coming from both camps will make it harder to hide this stuff.

In the past you have me bitching and moaning about this stuff and without actual "Proof" of these things happening it's tough to react properly. So they can go on a campaign of shooting the messenger. they get to say I am disgruntled, irrelevant, etc because it's me against the series, and the series wants this stuff quiet. So you have two choices, be vocal in hopes they quietly adjust the rules when nobody is looking or keep your mouth shut. That is mostly what happens because guys see the flak the ones who point stuff out get so why skyline yourself over someone else's mistake.

Even as a MD you get 1/2 dozen shooters to come up to you after a match when everyone is leaving the parking lot and they tell about the rules they saw broken. We see this stuff and nobody wants to be That Guy and stop the stage or tell the RO in real time. They feel that if they say something after the fact, they still said something but not in a way to cause an issue.

We have to cause an issue.

The heavy rifles, light triggers, zippy calibers, one of these rounds is gonna get away and cause an issue. Doesn't have to be lethal, just has to hit a house and you have closed that range down indefinitely, not to mention the bad PR after the fact.

It's clear with all these matches they are understaffed. You need someone watching the shooter, just as much as watching the target. I would almost advocate for the "On Deck" shooter to do it, but you know, not cheating, not trying. How about the shooter that finished the stage being the scorekeeper for the guy behind him. They are shorthanded and need an extra set of eyes. That is painfully clear, as even in the finale video the RO did not react. I am not saying Laura was at fault here, she is scoring, and can't watch two things at once, so we need an extra pair of eyes.

8oz triggers, support side, (support side is the #1 cause of this) is it gonna be like when the guy grazed his leg with a handgun and they decided no more handgun? What is next nothing that takes the shooter out of their comfort zone because they can't handle it?

I just shot an MPA Match. Phil pointed out that ND's usually happen when shooting week hand with a light trigger. He also went on to tell a story a bout a couple of guys working on a rifle without a chamber flag in the bore. The flag was in the magazine well. The went to function test, and sent a live round into the ground right between the legs of another shooter. Chamber flags always go in the chamber not the mag well.

 

[lash]

No, you are missing his point. He is saying punish the ones that fuck up, not everyone.

I'm not saying that having a minimum trigger weight would solve the issue, but I honestly think there is a percentage of ND's that happen because of triggers that are so light that either it makes the rifle mechanically unsafe, or the shooter mechanically unsafe. Whether that number is 20%, 50%, 80%, I do not know.

If there are negative results from having an ND because if triggers being too light, the situation will correct itself. That’s the point and it’s valid.

Why do shooters use 4 oz. triggers? Because they can get away with the occasional ND with no repercussions. If there were actual enforcement of the rules as they stand, the light trigger issue would correct itself pretty quickly.

Of course, in order to bring about actual enforcement, there needs to be enough personnel at a stage. This has been mentioned now a number of times and is most certainly one of the root causes of the problem.

Frank and a few others have posted since I started to respond. Darned work intervened. But my whole answer is to point out that it seems clear that there is a two step path to resolve the ND issue. First, there must be a push by everyone to provide eyes on shooter during a stage run. Second, there needs to be actual immediate enforcement of the existing ND rules. NO EXCEPTIONS!

I guess that there really is a third step, and that is that all shooters must start thinking about safety all of the time and have the balls to mention things as they happen.

I believe that these things CAN happen and will, as long as we as a community continue to keep it in front of everyone and on their minds.

 

[Olen_4504]

The thing about rules is that they rarely if ever go away. And they aggregate over time. Be judicious about implementing restrictions and rules; make sure they are actually appropriate and effective in addressing the issue at hand because once you've implemented it, chances are you're going to be stuck with it. It is a naieve approach to immediately implement a blanket rule as soon as an incident happens. Those folks usually don't perform the analysis to ensure their blanket approach is truly effective, so the incident happens again, and they implement another sweeping restriction, and then another.

Watch that video again. That dude grabs a handful of trigger. What pull weight will prevent that? For sure? With some safety margin? 5lbs?

my thoughts too. i'm not sure how trigger pull weight got brought into the discussion from this video. i think the same thing would have happened regardless of trigger pull weight.


i am NOT saying trigger pull weight is not a problem in general. i don't really have a solid opinion on it honestly. but i don't think a heavier trigger would have prevented the situation in the video

 

[Lowlight]

When I shot RO in February I was using, what I would consider a very light trigger. It was on my mind every shot I took, especially knowing Jacob's policy on NDs and such. I was hyper-aware of how light that trigger was.

The very first stage of the day, when we were trying to get the match started between the fog, I decided to step up, what I would consider early to shoot the first stage. I "Knew" where the target was, but with the violent South Texas dew storm in full effect, I could not see the target very clearly. I did hit it a couple of time but the reality was, I could not see it every shot. I stop shooting and walked away with time and rounds left on the clock. It's not to say, look at me, I had nothing to gain or lose by doing it, but you have to be able to stand up and say, No, or stand up and say, I had an ND, I need to stop now.

While I honestly believe an ND should be a Match DQ, at this point in the process I would be happy to just to see a few Stage DQs creep into the PRS Mix. Precision Rifle matches seem adverse to using the Stage DQ as a tool to combat the Safety Issues. At the very least a Stage DQ will hint towards some enforcement and penalty for the violations we see.

Here is the deal with an ND and why the Rifles Only policy is the way it is, Insurance. We all sign waivers to attend the match in order to release the range or MD from liability. The fact is, if a shooter has an ND and someone gets hurt or worse, the family is not gonna honor your Waiver, they can care less. An Investigation will happen, a lawsuit, etc, and if Shooter A had an ND previously, or if Shooter B had an ND with no ill effect, it's still an unenforced pattern. The Insurance company will decline the payment because the shooters demonstrated a pattern of unsafe gun handling which resulted in an injury and the MD did nothing. Doesn't matter if he never saw, the investigation will find this stuff and say, "Look negligence that has gone unanswered on more than one occasion". The best waiver in the world is not protecting you.

The fix is out there as noted,

1. Enforce the Rules (Stage DQs)
2. Range Officer is a Safety Officer first a scorekeeper second if at all as you can't do both.
3. Trigger Weight limits to start, 1.5LBS or 24oz as the lightest ( I would almost say 16oz but not sure I want to do that)

This will be a great first step, make any stage violations of safety a Stage DQ, if the ND goes out of the cone of safety make it a Match DQ, no questions asked. You launched a round with no accountability and the RO did not see an impact near the target, DQ.

We did a couple of mobile classes for the military including a Trip to Fort Irwin with the Rangers. I had to go to the base months early to take a safety class on SDZs for the Army just to be an onsite instructor with a Ranger Unit. Safety is paramount to this game as a rifle is no joke that close to each other. Even at Bragg, we had to be in complete Gear including plates and helmets or the range would not be cleared hot. The bonus part is, we got to keep the gear minus the plates and helmet, but everything else the let us have.

Safety is everybody's responsibility, edit, love the excuses, "what rule would prevent it" all of them, especially if you enforce them as guys will be more careful

 

[lash]

The thing about rules is that they rarely if ever go away. And they aggregate over time. Be judicious about implementing restrictions and rules; make sure they are actually appropriate and effective in addressing the issue at hand because once you've implemented it, chances are you're going to be stuck with it. It is a naieve approach to immediately implement a blanket rule as soon as an incident happens. Those folks usually don't perform the analysis to ensure their blanket approach is truly effective, so the incident happens again, and they implement another sweeping restriction, and then another.

Watch that video again. That dude grabs a handful of trigger. What pull weight will prevent that? For sure? With some safety margin? 5lbs?

I agree. And as I said above, enforce the existing ND rules as written and the trigger weight issue will self correct. People will see others getting DQ’d or experience it themselves and change things so that they are controllable by themselves. There will still be those that shoot a light trigger, but it will typically be those that are practiced and controlled enough with that trigger as to not incur/cause an ND.

 

[...]

meh, the gun was pointed down range and he was in the middle of a string of fire.....just count it as a missed shot and move on....incidents like this happen all the time.

practically speaking theres no difference between this "ND" and someone pulling a shot.

a DQ seems excessive

if you have a ND outside of a designated string of fire, or that fails to impact the berm, then thats a different matter.

but unless you are going to go all NFL and have slo-mo cameras watching every shooter so you can analyse their reaction to a shot breaking...yall are playing monday morning QB on one guy who just happened to be on camera.

 

[Lowlight]

Part of the Problem ^^^^

At what point is it a big deal, when it leaves the range, hits a house and the owner calls the cops to shut down the range

 

[...]

Part of the Problem ^^^^

At what point is it a big deal, when it leaves the range, hits a house and the owner calls the cops to shut down the range

....but did any of that happen?....

we can play "what ifs" till the cows come home.

and at what point does it become an ND?

if i have the rifle shouldered, on target, and my finger twitches.....and i hit my target albeit not where i would like.....is that a ND? seeing as i didnt "intend" to shoot.....should that be a DQ?

if im shooting my 6 shot revolver.....and i think i shoot it 6 times but ive only actually shot it 5.....i go to "dry fire" on my target and my gun fires......its on target....but again, i didnt "intend" it to fire....should that get me thrown off a range?

 

[regnar375]

Couple key points that several have mentioned that I believe will help correct this problem.

1. STRICT enforcement. once stage and match DQ become common common the problem will self correct.

2. IF only one ro on a stage, that person is the Safety only. the rest of the squad needs to spot, score and run time. the ro's ONLY responsibility is safety.

3. I like the idea of if there is a ND that stays in the range it's a stage dq, two a match dq. If it leaves the range immediate match dq. I would go one step further and make a nd leaving the range cause for a shooter to be inillegable for series finale. qhen the top shooters have something to loose then they will help promote change.

One thing I dont agree with is trigger weight restrictions. for one its difficult to police. Then if you have some one under by a 1/10 of an ounce there is going to be arguements over the scale. would a 5 pound trigger stoped the ND in this video? I doubt it. increasing the trigger weight is a bandaid approach to fixing the problem and does not fix the root cause which is poor trigger control.

 

[Lowlight]

Only takes one !

Safety is RULE NUMBER ONE

The more you overlook the small issues, the quicker you reach the big ones.

The mindset you just exhibited has no business on any range, you're the problem, you're' gonna get someone hurt. I would blackball you for even thinking its no big deal. Not every range / match has a berm to catch rounds, missing by a wide margin is hard to control, and short skips are worse than anything.

Colorado Rifle Club had an issue with Skips, guys were placing targets at 25 yards and would skip rounds all over the place. The NRA came in and completely redesigned the berms because the skipping rounds would turn and fly over the High Power Range. You cannot predict a skip and several of these ranges have less than 100 acres of land, the mindset has to change.

I was at K&M/Core/Altus when a guy shot himself, what happens when the guy trips and NDs into someone else, it's a matter of WHEN and not IF

We have 4 safety rules, breaking any one of them should not be overlooked, not one. We are talking about a rifle sending a bullet at 3000fps in close proximity of each other. How well do you think you'll survive even a leg hit with all that pressure? The handgun crowd has roughly 1/3 the velocity and 3x the enforcement of the safety rules.

I want to go to a match with @mcameron and follow him around with my rifle pointing it at him the whole weekend. I want you to turn and see my muzzle at your back and when you try to stop me, just reply, it's not loaded and continue to point my rifle at you. Why do we enforce no Suitcase Carry, because mistakes happen.

 

[...]

I want to go to a match with @mcameron and follow him around with my rifle pointing it at him the whole weekend. I want you to turn and see my muzzle at your back and when you try to stop me, just reply, it's not loaded and continue to point my rifle at you. Why do we enforce no Suitcase Carry, because mistakes happen.

how is that in any way equivalent to what happened here?

a guy putting a round into a backstop is in no way the same as pointing a gun at someone...

although to be fair, we have the 4 rules....and you need to break 2 of them to get hurt........otherwise cleaning a revolver would be pretty damn hard......same with loading a muzzle loader.....or changing out targets with rifles on the line.

 

[Lowlight]

It should be a Match DQ,

But in all this time, have we seen this level of enforcement? No...

So something is better than nothing or having the attitude it's no big deal it's downrange, no harm, no foul. Okay, if the ND was in the direction the target, Stage DQ at the very least.

Clearly, the issue is, they don't want to single out anyone, or highlight the problems by DQing people from the event. So a basic Stage DQ is a start. It's how they do it in Handgun events.

The NOTHING TO SEE HERE crowd is 75% of the problem

 

[ForgeValley]

Shot the NC Guardian match last weekend, and because of these threads, I was watching closely the RO's and competitors.

I was happy with what I saw.

RO's at each stage, and their focus was on the shooter, not on glass, and not scoring. They were on you like white on rice. Pulled your chamber flag and put it back in at the end of the stage, visually inspecting the chamber. Come off the line with a hot weapon, goodbye, head to DQ and get some ice cream. ND? DQ.

Staging areas for the rifles pointed downrange. RO's that moved with the squad to score and spot.

Rifle's were not floating around everywhere, constantly being flagged. Muzzle awareness was mentioned at the match brief, and at the stage briefs. Pointed in the air or at the ground not much suitcase carry going on that I saw. Don't fuc* with your rifle when not on the line.

Kudos to Paul and Gary for putting on a safe match.

 

[Olen_4504]

Shot the NC Guardian match last weekend, and because of these threads, I was watching closely the RO's and competitors.

I was happy with what I saw.

RO's at each stage, and their focus was on the shooter, not on glass, and not scoring. They were on you like white on rice. Pulled your chamber flag and put it back in at the end of the stage, visually inspecting the chamber. Come off the line with a hot weapon, goodbye, head to DQ and get some ice cream. ND? DQ.

Staging areas for the rifles pointed downrange. RO's that moved with the squad to score and spot.

Rifle's were not floating around everywhere, constantly being flagged. Muzzle awareness was mentioned at the match brief, and at the stage briefs. Pointed in the air or at the ground not much suitcase carry going on that I saw. Don't fuc* with your rifle when not on the line.

Kudos to Paul and Gary for putting on a safe match.

yeah because Paul has ROs AND "Stage Bosses" at each stage.

one person to enforce rules, the other to spot/score or some combination similar. i also like the way it's run

 

[Lowlight]

You keep saying, "a guy putting a round into a backstop" okay show me it hit the backstop.

In the video, Laura says neither RO saw an impact around the target, they have no idea where the round went, it was not in a backstop from what I can tell. If you cannot Monday Morning Quarterback Safety, why are you in this sport as safety is a priority.

Clearly, the ROs are only looking at the TARGETS and their FOV is limited if the round is not seen, where did it go?

Safety is a priority, if you are cutting slack for each and every incident at what point the shooters, RO, and MD just say have at it and good luck.

It's too easy to make a mistake, which is why we have layers of safety, by stripping away the layers because you don't like having rules or enforcement of the most basic rules find a new hobby.

 

[Lowlight]

Side note,

If we only enforce the 4 fundamental safety rules, which I am fine with, how many did he break

Finger straight out of the trigger guard until the sights are on target

Be sure of your target and your backstop

So by my count, he broke two ...

He owns the bullet until it comes to a complete stop, can he tell me where it stopped?

Never point the muzzle at anything you are not willing to destroy and take full responsibility for, he didn't control the rifle.

Those 4 alone cover all this, we are not adding rules but enforcing the most basic of them.

 

[Tx_Aggie]

....but did any of that happen?....

we can play "what ifs" till the cows come home.

and at what point does it become an ND?

if i have the rifle shouldered, on target, and my finger twitches.....and i hit my target albeit not where i would like.....is that a ND? seeing as i didnt "intend" to shoot.....should that be a DQ?

Yes that's an ND, though many people would play it off as intentional.

if im shooting my 6 shot revolver.....and i think i shoot it 6 times but ive only actually shot it 5.....i go to "dry fire" on my target and my gun fires......its on target....but again, i didnt "intend" it to fire....should that get me thrown off a range?

Also and ND, and if you're dryfiring with a weapon you "think" is empty but hasn't been cleared you're an idiot.

If you honestly feel this way I wouldn't want you anywhere near me at a match or anywhere else firearms are used.

 

[...]

if thats the case then you wouldnt have a match, because literally 80% of the shooters would be DQ'd........yall act like this has never happened to any of you........or do yall self flagellate every time you have a "ND"?

If you honestly feel this way I wouldn't want you anywhere near me at a match or anywhere else firearms are used.

 

[Dthomas3523]

No, you are missing his point. He is saying punish the ones that fuck up, not everyone.

I didn’t miss his point at all.

In some situations, it’s impossible to only “punish” the people who fuck up.

I’ll use speed limits as an example. Eventually we got to a point where, generally speaking, most of the population will be at a speed which diminishes their reaction time enough that it is inherently unsafe.

Same thing with triggers. At a certain weight, we as humans, generally speaking, cannot exhibit proper safety.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Silky light trigger pull for PRS. I shoot 2-3 pounds for a bolt gun. Seen too many experienced shooters go off facing down range before the RO opened up the range for fire. Each time they had silly light triggers and brushed them with their fingers. Each time they showed enough respect to DQ themselves rather than make the RO do it. I mean it is pretty obvious when 10 shooters are on the line and right after Ready and before Fire a rifle report goes off. PRS has a problem with so many people standing around and only one shooter to watch.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Couple key points that several have mentioned that I believe will help correct this problem.

1. STRICT enforcement. once stage and match DQ become common common the problem will self correct.

2. IF only one ro on a stage, that person is the Safety only. the rest of the squad needs to spot, score and run time. the ro's ONLY responsibility is safety.

3. I like the idea of if there is a ND that stays in the range it's a stage dq, two a match dq. If it leaves the range immediate match dq. I would go one step further and make a nd leaving the range cause for a shooter to be inillegable for series finale. qhen the top shooters have something to loose then they will help promote change.

One thing I dont agree with is trigger weight restrictions. for one its difficult to police. Then if you have some one under by a 1/10 of an ounce there is going to be arguements over the scale. would a 5 pound trigger stoped the ND in this video? I doubt it. increasing the trigger weight is a bandaid approach to fixing the problem and does not fix the root cause which is poor trigger control.

At some point though, the weight is so low that, generally speaking, many, many more ND’s will happen.

At a certain weight, it ain’t just a trigger control issue. What that weight is......that’s the hard part to figure out.

 

[Lowlight]

Dude,

Join a Tier 1 group, have an ND and you are OUT for at least a year at which point you can try again. starting all over.

If the Top Military units have a zero tolerance policy on it, and they are mega trained, why would you let a new or inexperienced shooter who decided to try his hand at matches make mistakes with no repercussions in close proximity of 100 other shooters? They get it, why don't you.

I have not had an ND at a match, so I have no idea what you are talking about acting as we all have done it and just swept it under the rug.

Pathetic the defense you are putting on.

The fact you are talking about hiding an ND puts you in the same category as the shooter in the video, lack of integrity is a virtue now, stop the bus I want to get off if this is we have come too

 

[...]

get the fuck off your high horse frank, its fucking obnoxious

 

[Tx_Aggie]

if thats the case then you wouldnt have a match, because literally 80% of the shooters would be DQ'd........yall act like this has never happened to any of you........or do yall self flagellate every time you have a "ND"?

Lol....what?

The point behind enforcement is make sure people take the issue seriously - that they understand a firearm discharging without clear intent is dangerous, regardless of wether it's because the gun is mechanically unsafe or because the shooter is negligent in controlling when they touch the trigger.

Your attitude seems to be the opposite - basically "it's all good as long as no one actually gets shot." The problem with that is that it encourages the sort of cavalier, sloppy, bullshit attitude you seem to be stuck with.

The same is true for sweeping and flagging people with muzzles, which I'm guessing you're also cool with as long as the rifle is "empty."

 

[...]

The same is true for sweeping and flagging people with muzzles, which I'm guessing you're also cool with as long as the rifle is "empty."

please indicate where i said any of that?

 

[Mormegil87]

A couple of general observations.

1) The other members of the squad should have been calling him out after that ND and should have been calling for the MD after the point was given.

2) WE are the ones who continue to shoot matches that only have one or maybe two ROs per stage. So as long as WE keep showing up to matches and paying fees and not demanding any changes, well, shit ain't going to change much.

I've said this in the other safety thread:

If you don't have a place to safely stage rifles at each and every stage, you don't hold a match.

If you don't have enough ROs whether they are dedicated or it's peer ROd, you don't hold a match.

If you don't have the guts to hold your fellow shooters accountable because "they're your buds". You don't have a match.

And don't bother giving me that, "it stifles the growth of the sport" bullshit. You know what will kill growth, the dead body of a competitor or the dead body of some bystander. That will shut down any and all growth.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Dude,

Join a Tier 1 group, have an ND and you are OUT for at least a year at which point you can try again. starting all over.

If the Top Military units have a zero tolerance policy on it, and they are mega trained, why would you let a new or inexperienced shooter who decided to try his hand at matches make mistakes with no repercussions in close proximity of 100 other shooters? They get it, why don't you.

I have not had an ND at a match, so I have no idea what you are talking about acting as we all have done it and just swept it under the rug.

Pathetic the defense you are putting on.

The fact you are talking about hiding an ND puts you in the same category as the shooter in the video, lack of integrity is a virtue now, stop the bus I want to get off if this is we have come too

Same boat. Never had an ND at a match.

Whenever I install a new trigger, I don’t look at the weight. I tune it until it feels right, then I dryfire.

If I start having issues with would be an ND with live rounds, I tune the trigger up until it doesn’t happen.

Not sure wtf anyone who claims this “happens” all the time are speaking of.

If this happens to anyone all they time, they are unsafe as fuck.

 

[Tx_Aggie]

please indicate where i said any of that?

You didn't. I was making the point that they are in the same category of safety violation as the ND's you seem to be arguing are no big deal.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

I'm sort of shocked how light on triggers you guys go for PRS style shooting. That in itself is not very safe for the type of weapon handling that is involved.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I'm sort of shocked how light on triggers you guys go for PRS style shooting. That in itself is not very safe for the type of weapon handling that is involved.

I personally think around 8oz (depending on trigger) is where things get funky.

Anytime I’ve seen ND that were due to light trigger. They have all been <8oz

 

[BLKWLFK9]

moral of the story, shoot a 2 stage. Especially the AI factory trigger. no ND's. Not saying it isnt possible, but if it happens, you dont need to be shooting anything more than a BB gun.

 

[supercorndogs]

I didn’t miss his point at all.

In some situations, it’s impossible to only “punish” the people who fuck up.

I’ll use speed limits as an example. Eventually we got to a point where, generally speaking, most of the population will be at a speed which diminishes their reaction time enough that it is inherently unsafe.

Same thing with triggers. At a certain weight, we as humans, generally speaking, cannot exhibit proper safety.

It is never impossible to only punish those that fuck up. Rules dont protect us, justice does. You can make all the new rules in the world. If there is no punishment, no enforcement, and no-one to enforce them, it doesn't mean anything.

There is no trigger weight that we as humans can't be safe with. It is on the person to know their trigger. There are trigger weights i don't feel safe with, and thats pretty much anything under 2.5lbs.

Your speed limit example relies on everyone being to stupid to be safe, and not afraid of punishment for damages they do. The everyone is to stupid to be free idea is where the democrat thing comes from. Start handing out real punishment for breaking the rules and watch how fast shit self corrects.

Thats not to say that a weight limit wouldn't stop some NDs, and that speed limits don't stop some crashes.

 

[Dthomas3523]

It is never impossible to only punish those that fuck up. Rules dont protect us, justice does. You can make all the new rules in the world. If there is no punishment, no enforcement, and no-one to enforce them, it doesn't mean anything.

There is no trigger weight that we as humans can't be safe with. It is on the person to know their trigger. There are trigger weights i don't feel safe with, and thats pretty much anything under 2.5lbs.

Your speed limit example relies on everyone being to stupid to be safe, and not afraid of punishment for damages they do. The everyone is to stupid to be free idea is where the democrat thing comes from. Start handing out real punishment for breaking the rules and watch how fast shit self corrects.

That’s why I put “punish” in quotation marks.

The speed limit isn’t the “punishment.” Just like a weight restriction isn’t.

And you’re absolutely wrong about no trigger not being safe. I’ll give you a 2-4oz diamond trigger single stage and I promise if you are under enough time pressure, you will have an ND.

Or I’ll give you a pair of gloves and tell you to shoot a 4oz trigger.

This is happening way more than people realize as many times, the shooter is the only one who realizes it.

This isn’t benchrest where you free recoil 100% of the time(even though some would like to think it is). When you induce movement into the system such as breathing under high stress, with too light a trigger, you will not be able to execute proper trigger control.

As frank says, eventually one is gonna go out the range and hit something.

You set a limit for safety, and you punish those who break it. That’s how rules work. You can’t have a punishment without a rule.

 

[supercorndogs]

And you’re absolutely wrong about no trigger not being safe. I’ll give you a 2-4oz diamond trigger single stage and I promise if you are under enough time pressure, you will have an ND.

Or I’ll give you a pair of gloves and tell you to shoot a 4oz trigger.

No, I wouldn't..... See how straw man arguments work?

Does the safety not stop the firearm from discharging? Bolt handle could be left up until on target. Hell you could leave the action open until you were on target. Its up to the guy behind the gun to figure out how to be safe with what he has, and manage stress. Shooting a 4oz trigger with gloves on would be fucking stupid.

Are there not already rules on how to deal with NDs?

 

[Dthomas3523]

No, I wouldn't..... See how straw man arguments work?

Does the safety not stop the firearm from discharging? Bolt handle could be left up until on target. Hell you could leave the action open until you were on target. Its up to the guy behind the gun to figure out how to be safe with what he has, and manage stress. Shooting a 4oz trigger with gloves on would be fucking stupid.

Are there not already rules on how to deal with NDs?

You said there’s no trigger that isn’t safe. Then you said shooting 4oz with gloves is stupid.

You just killed your own argument.

This is why there aren’t enough rules for ND’s now that stupid light triggers on practical rifles have arrived:

Most times, only the shooter will know it was an ND. Most people ain’t gonna DQ themselves.

Random trigger tests or drop tests will solve some of it.

Have an ND, well, that sucks, see you next match.

Fail a trigger pull weight test by a significant margin? Fuck you, you’re banned from particular range or events for life.

If someone walked onto a range with an blatantly unsafe weapon, they would be kicked out. Featherweight triggers on a practical rifle is an unsafe weapon.

 

[Lowlight]

You make rules for the lowest common denominator

Since we don't vet the shooters, there is no qualifier, and we are clearly not enforcing even the most basic rules, changes have to be made. If you are unwilling to acknowledge violations are on the rise, you have no business commenting.

It's not a rule to punish, it' s a guideline for safety and to give you a baseline to work with. As an example, if you are saying 1LBS is the lightest, and then a person has an ND, you can check the trigger weight and enforce the rules. If they have the trigger set to 12 oz vs being set to 16oz (as an example) you now have 2 violations to enforce and it's no longer grey. Clearly, it was lighter than the guideline and the shooter demonstrated the inability to control the weapon. You can do a Match DQ because 2 rules were broken, vs one. It's clear to all involved.

The Series should also be taxing people points. A shooter can have a Stage DQ in clear violation of the rules and the series does nothing the only Punishment or Tax is at the Match. When you start hitting them on both ends you ramp up the drive to make no mistakes. If mistakes are painful and cost you points, the next match you'll think twice about it. Today the guys who blatantly violate the rules only have to sweat the match and not the series. There is no drive to fix it because the series defaults to the MD, if they can bully an RO, no punish happens, which is what we see.

Hell, even Candice Horner spoke on FB on her ND and how she could have easily bullied the RO and moved past it if she was that kinda person. Clearly, there are plenty of THOSE GUYS out there who will do whatever they can to move past a mistake in order to sweep it under the rug. The series needs to enforce its own rules. How many times must we suffer the NASCAR comparisons only to have the series be nothing like NASCAR, as Series who taxes the teams and drivers?

If a match director wants to check a trigger before the match, the shooter can easily adjust it, if they are found under the guideline weight, no harm, no foul. Hey Shooter, your trigger is 12oz, go change it to 16oz and come back. Pretty easy to have a pull gauge and run down the line to check. In fact, it's easier than trying to check 100 shooters for a speed limit violation. (How many complaints do we read about guys cheating the speed rules)

I have not been to one in a while, but Competition Dynamics used to drop test the rifles to make sure the triggers don't fire on a 1ft drop or whatever distance off the ground. That is a good and easy test, hold the rifle X Inches over the ground, drop it and if it fires, unsafe, go back and try again.

Right now there is next to no enforcement unless it is blatant and even then enforcement is restricted to the individual event. You all want to be a Sport so bad but refuse to do the most basic officiating found in just about every other sport on the planet.

Sports are defined by their rules and the enforcement of said rules. Any less you are a disorganized bunch of guys hanging out and shooting stuff to stroke your ego.

PS, I shot this rifle, it's a comp gun with a 2oz trigger clearly they are out there. Too many risk safety in order to have the least amount of contact with rifle as possible. And as we have seen, it's pretty easy when an RO has their face in a Spotter to sweep it under the rug, until something unintentional gets hit and the shit hits the fan, which is coming.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

I personally think around 8oz (depending on trigger) is where things get funky.

Anytime I’ve seen ND that were due to light trigger. They have all been <8oz

That is where the stupid is as stupid does come in. I wouldn't be running around shooting tactical style training with anything under a solid 2.5 pounds.

 

[supercorndogs]

You said there’s no trigger that isn’t safe. Then you said shooting 4oz with gloves is stupid.

No I didn't. Take the gloves off. Its called personal responsibility. And please learn to think around problems. New rules are not always the answer.

And as i said in my earlier comment. Thats not to say trigger weight limits would not stop some NDs, just like speed limits stop some crashes.

The problem here is you think i am arguing that a trigger weight limit would not help at all. I am actually only trying to get you to understand what Reubenski was trying to get across. I know you said you did, but you clearly don't.

 

[Dthomas3523]

No I didn't. Take the gloves off. Its called personal responsibility. And please learn to think around problems. New rules are not always the answer.

LOL. I’m done. Your logic is ridiculous.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Keep Your Meat Hooks Off the trigger until your ready to fire. Whats so hard to understand?

Light trigger
+
sloppy finger control
= ND.
You can clearly see him bump it while adjusting.

And Yes, it appears he accepted a point vs admit an ND.

Whats the difference between a Negligent and Accidental discharge if there is one?

 

[Dthomas3523]

Keep Your Meat Hooks Off the trigger until your ready to fire. Whats so hard to understand?

Light trigger
+
sloppy finger control
= ND.
You can clearly see him bump it while adjusting.

And Yes, it appears he accepted a point vs admit an ND.

Whats the difference between a Negligent and Accidental discharge if there is one?

There is no difference. “Accidental” is soft millennial speak to make it not sound as bad. “Negligent” sounds harsh, as it should.

Problem with light triggers, it’s generally accept that marrying your finger up to trigger and then breaking trigger at bottom of breathing cycle is standard. Too light a trigger and it can go off with a deep breath.

That’s still an ND and should not happen.

 

[supercorndogs]

LOL. I’m done. Your logic is ridiculous.

You're right, taking responsibility for yourself and knowing your limits is just ridiculous. ??

 

[Lowlight]

It's a combination, the layers that stack up

Light trigger
Speed
Movement
Support Side or Out of Comfort Zone positions or questionable props.

When you put everything together, you have a recipe for an issue and granted it might only bite one guy in a match with a 100 shooters, but one is too many when you can manage some of these elements beforehand.

We default to our training and many have none to start with it. We often see guys get tangled in their equipment trying to negotiate stages, getting tangled in your trigger or having one that is not drop safe is the issue. (we have seen hot rifles dropped)

It is the unknowns that are hardest to manage when we have known issues we should strive to manage those to keep things safe.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Its an exremely pulled shot and at least it went down range.

 

[Cjwise5]

how is that in any way equivalent to what happened here?

a guy putting a round into a backstop is in no way the same as pointing a gun at someone...

although to be fair, we have the 4 rules....and you need to break 2 of them to get hurt........otherwise cleaning a revolver would be pretty damn hard......same with loading a muzzle loader.....or changing out targets with rifles on the line.

The problem with this ND in particular is that the round was unaccounted for. No one knows whether it hit the berm or if it continued out of the range all together. That should strike you as a really bad thing.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

But you have to admit there is a slight difference between.

Being on the rifle pointed at the target down range and accidentally bumping the trigger while adjusting.

Vs

Slinging the rifle over your shoulder and sending one in the dirt besides you because you had one in the chamber.

 

[Mormegil87]

How constrained of a range are you all shooting on? No SDZ? A bad enough wind call would send a round into a families home?
[/QUOTE

I know most places around here in the upper don't have two miles in every direction with no houses/buildings/roads ect.

Heck I know of at least one major range with houses less than 2 miles directly down range of their firing line.

 

[supercorndogs]

It's a combination, the layers that stack up

Light trigger
Speed
Movement
Support Side or Out of Comfort Zone positions or questionable props.

When you put everything together, you have a recipe for an issue and granted it might only bite one guy in a match with a 100 shooters, but one is too many when you can manage some of these elements beforehand.

We default to our training and many have none to start with it. We often see guys get tangled in their equipment trying to negotiate stages, getting tangled in your trigger or having one that is not drop safe is the issue. (we have seen hot rifles dropped)

It is the unknowns that are hardest to manage when we have known issues we should strive to manage those to keep things safe.

I completely agree. Only point I was trying to make is that the application of more rules wily nilly is not a solution to a problem. He asked what someone else meant, and I answered. Then he wanted to argue, and god I just love to argue.

I know you are not doing this with out reason or "wily nilly." Any NDs are a tremendous problem. A game like PRS should not put peoples lives at risk. And like you said when someone does get hurt. There will be hell to for the MD, range owner, and shooter. Even worse id the the insurance company can show history of ignoring negligent behavior.

I watched a documentary about a kid that was killed sitting in a building at the range. One of the shooters had a double fire in a competition going on outside. It clears the burm which was something like 6" too short to keep the bullet from hitting the building, ricocheted off a girder, and went back through the ceiling striking the poor kid in the head. It took a long investigation to figure out what exactly happened. But they figured it out and everyone paid hell. A couple of more bullet holes in the building that had been patched showed the range was also negligent. Someone lost their life because of a lackluster attitude about safety. and someone else went to jail. And someone else lost their range and lots of money.

 

[Mormegil87]

But you have to admit there is a slight difference between.

Being on the rifle pointed at the target down range and accidentally bumping the trigger while adjusting.

Vs

Slinging the rifle over your shoulder and sending one in the dirt besides you because you had one in the chamber.

There's no difference if one of those rounds impacts a competitor or a bystander.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

U

There's no difference if one of those rounds impacts a competitor or a bystander.

Really? No difference between a shot going 6' from an intended target down range and one 6' from your foot?