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nemesis arms stock accruate?

fish2keel

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Hey guys,

I have a question for you. I understand that free floating a barrel makes it accurate but are the stocks like the nemesis arms stocks with the barrel not touching any stock very accurate? If so how are they accurate without having any stock to support the barrel?

Thanks guys!
 
Re: nemesis arms stock accruate?

A free-floating barrel means that the barrel touches nothing, including the stock. Hence the term, free-floating. Even with a more traditional-looking stock, if the barrel is truly free-floated, then the stock and barrel do not touch.
 
Re: nemesis arms stock accruate?

I don't understand this question. Nemesis doesn't sell stocks. They sell a rifle and the stock is part of the proprietary system.

As was said above, the term "free float" means that the barrel is touching nothing but the receiver at the point where it is attached. Whether a stock is "accurate" depends on how rigid it is and how well it is fit to the action of the rifle. I've seen rifles that had barrels that weren't free floated that shot very well and rifle with free floated barrels that didn't shoot worth a crap.

As for the Nemesis rifle, I really don't know. It kind of looks like it would be easy to break. I also don't like the position of the bipod attachment point. It's in the middle of the rifle. I like my bipods as far out front as possible so that there is minimal movement at the muzzle end when there is movement at the breech end.
 
Re: nemesis arms stock accruate?

The Nemesis is supposed to be quite accurate. As TonyAngel said, they don't sell a stock, they sell a complete weapon system... there is a buttstock that's integral with the receiver, and no fore-end. I agree that it could maybe use a fore-end of some kind for the bipod, but I read somewhere that they're making some changes to their stock ... going with the Atlas bipod and adding a monopod IIRC.

I think the main selling point for the Nemesis is that it can fit into a briefcase. That's why I'd like one, anyway!
smile.gif
 
Re: nemesis arms stock accruate?

yeah I saw that it can fit in the briefcase or the back pack. I understand it doesnt have a stock that was why I was asking how it can be accurate without any stock. I dont like how it really looks really with no forearm at all but I like the idea...seems sorta pricey though
 
Re: nemesis arms stock accruate?

An e-mail i just got this mourning may help clarify things
wink.gif
..LOL


From David @ Nemesis

Harris Publication did an independent article on our Vanquish Rifle System and attained groups of .31 inches.
Our rifle system with our adjustable cheek rest is 12.5 lbs. with a fab folding stock 11.2 lbs.

The reason we built our platform is because of our dissatisfaction with systems like the 700 series. We use a custom Timney high quality trigger that are adjustable. We build the only rifle in the world that disassembles and assembles shooting the same point of aim, point of impact. I understand that your rifle is a very nice rifle, however after personally working on the 700 series (for professional shooters) you cannot get continuous accuracy and repeatability from forged or cast parts unless you machine them again and then they do not last as long because they are inherently weaker, you can save considerable money as a manufacturer though. ACIS is a good chassis, but a chassis do not shoot. The Rem 700 series has long standing issues that even Rem has acknowledged. This is why most will replace many or majority of the parts or components to create or recreate a good or great shooting platform. Our philosophy is build it right the first time. We do not build parts guns.

Our barrel does not screw on. It is perfectly turned and ground to .0.0002, yes that is 2 tenths concentricity and accuracy. The receiver is honed to the same, this allows the barrel and the receiver to slide together perfectly every time. We also Nitrate our barrels inside and out, as well as the receivers, stainless bolt tubes, handles, stock rods and many other parts for strength, longevity and anti corrosion.

I also understand your friends comments regarding other systems in the past that do not shoot because you can take them apart. However, lets dissect this, we have independent testing from Military, a Major Publishing House, shooters and owners of our equipment on Snipers Hide, You Tube and other forums that are standing behind us. Law Enforcement Agencies are trying to figure out how to afford our equipment to replace their Remington's. I have attached a video link to our latest shoot at 350 & 528 yds. taking the barrel off and putting back on while the camera is rolling and making every shot. But (with all due respect) your friends, that have not shot, handled or researched our equipment say it will not work. I guess the Wright Bros. should have stopped doing their thing. I joke, because after 4 years we have done nothing but grow, we have sold to Israel, Jordan, Poland, Canada and all over the U.S. with many countries currently doing the appropriate paperwork to also attain our system.

I know this is quiet a bit to think about, but just one more thought. If we are so wrong in what we do, why would AI, Sako, Barrett & FN come to our booth (at Shot Show) and research us and their engineers ask us questions or for help with their projects? Why would Ashbury International purchase our products?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7GIDQ9V-uw

Sorry this is alot to read, I know this is a very important decision to make, my intent was not to put down any other manufacturer or anyone's equipment. There is a rifle built for everyone. If I can be of any additional help, let me know. Our goal at Nemesis Arms is to make every customer happy. We look forward to building you the most remarkable rifle in the world.

Best Regards,
David Ives
President
Nemesis Arms Inc.
909-446-1111 off
909-446-1109 fax
 
Re: nemesis arms stock accruate?

Free floating a barrel does not make the barrel accurate. If the barrel sucks when in contact with the stock, it'll suck when not in contact with the stock.

Free floating can improve accuracy, but it should not be said that free floating makes a barrel accurate.
 
Re: nemesis arms stock accruate?

Fish,

Interesting question, the answer to which will require you to revisit your very first statement...

"I understand that free floating a barrel makes it accurate"

I am going to rewrite this statement into a question....

"Is a free floating barrel more accurate?"

Now, Rancid's answer is correct, but it may not be a simple enough based on your statement/question(s). We will try to answer your question by first making the following statements about a perfect rifle:

Our perfect rifle has:

1. A magnificent barrel.
2. A magnificent receiver (lets say a bolt action).
3. A magnificent magazine.
4. A magnificent trigger.
5. Magnificent bullets.
6. Magnificent optics.

If this rifle could float in space, allowing us to simply spin it, aim it and have it remain rock solid as we touch the trigger, we would have the perfect rifle in all regards.

But humans have to touch the rifles they carry, and that is at the heart of your question. All stocks allow humans to aim and steady the rifle and, in doing so, create as few accuracy issues as possible.

In other words, when it comes to stocks...

1. A perfect rifle wants nothing touching the barrel.
2. A perfect rifle wants the operator to have solid control over the receiver to manipulate the bolt, aim the rifle and hold it steady when it fires.
3. A perfect rifle wants the operator's head to return to the very same position, perfectly aligned with the optics.
4. A perfect rifle wants the recoil of the rifle to be "managed" uniformly and repeatably in the same manner into the shoulder of the operator.
5. And....if a the rifle is to be supported at any point ahead of the receiver, either by hand, bipod, or resting the stock forend on a pack, our perfect rifle wants all the weight transferred directly and wholly to the receiver...not the barrel (see #1).

So now lets answer your first question ""Is a free floating barrel more accurate?". The answer is: It is a crucial part of our perfect rifle. If anything touched the barrel it can and most likely will, change the point of aim.

Now your second question, which I will ask two ways (slightly edited)

"Are designs like the Nemesis Arms rifle, where no forearm is present, accurate?" And the answer is: Yes, as it meets a criteria of our perfect rifle, that being, nothing touches the barrel.

and the same question, but with an important difference as you will see. "Is the design of the Nemesis Arms rifle, where no forearm exists, more accurate than a free floating traditional stock or chasis?" And the answer is: No, as nothing touches the barrel of our perfect rifle, either will do perfectly.

Your last question and then an important observation.

Your last question (edited again) "If the Nemesis Arms system, without any forend, is accurate. How is the barrel supported?" And the answer is, like Bill Ritchies original fielded .50 Windrunner, one of the most accurate rifles in the world, the Nemesis Arms fully supports its barrel within the structure of the receiver. And, most unusually, this support also allows for the barrel to be removed and replaced without any loss of zero.

Now the observation...

The Nemesis Arms, like the original .50 Windrunner, uses a stud that extends from the bottom of the receiver to support the bipod. By design, until the new Nemesis Arms tube free floating receiver that can be seen in the photo gallery, there was no means to support the forend by hand. I mention this because for many, that actually are more comfortable with more traditional free floating forends,this was seen as a limitation. To a degree it may be. But, when one uses the Schutzen grip like this..

Nemesis52.jpg


One can actually move the Vanquish off your shoulder and the rifle stays absolutely horizontal. It is amazing, so much so that David routinely does this at demonstrations, and when others do it, they get it, the Vanquish shoots off the shoulder like few rifles.

Also, by using a rod in the smaller Windrunner chasis, one can do very unusual set-ups like this...

Nemesis41.jpg


There is something else, every part of that rifle is made by one person except the trigger, butt stock rubber, pistol grip, bipod, barrel blank and optics. And, anybody that knows David, knows he is truly a precision savant.

I've owned one for years, and aside from being able to pack away, it shoots better than I can, and better than rifles made by some of the best that I own that are twice as expensive.

Here he is firing the .50 without optics at 100. Click on it. The guy just loves shooting...





Hope that helps.
 
Re: nemesis arms stock accruate?

Wow this is why I love this site! What an answer everyone!

Twisted .308, Thanks for posting that! Thats amazing the machining is down to .0002 to me. Im sure its routine but still amazing the precision.

Rolling Thunder, Thanks for the response! What an answer to all my questions and to some I never thought of.

I do have another question though. My apologizes for all the questions in advance.

If I get this straight the nemesis receiver has an extension for the barrel to hold the barrel with support? This support is within the receiver though, how is this different from other manufactories such as Remington rifles ?
 
Re: nemesis arms stock accruate?

Questions are good!

As you might expect, there are many ways that manufacturers set barrels into the receiver. Some are meant to be permanent, others to be removed. The vast majority of receivers are threaded to accept a threaded barrel and the two are set in with no intent that they ever be separated until a new barrel or destroyed receiver is present. In some cases, like in machine guns, the design allows for fast swapping out some barrels, again by either removing a threaded collar or by unthreading the barrel itself. In the case of the Vanquish the full support is within the receiver, where two incredibly machine surfaces (hard plated) are slide in and held in place by a heavy final barrel nut.

Here is the receiver in the raw

IMG_1880.jpg


IMG_1906.jpg


IMG_1930.jpg


Now more of this will make sense

PLASTER.jpg


FINALMASTERREAR.jpg


 
Re: nemesis arms stock accruate?

Wow rolling thunder thanks so much for the help! I actually went and picked up a new copy of tactical weapons last night and sure enough there is a full spread article on the nemesis vanquish. Although it is a different rifle platform it is one amazing rifle.

Does nemesis still make a .50 or just the smaller vanquish now?
 
Re: nemesis arms stock accruate?

I met David Ives from Nemesis Arms at a gun show about three years ago. I had a lot of the same questions.

I wanted a weapon system similar to what I used in the in the military. My new rifle would be for precision rifle competition and for harvesting game.

I researched all types of platforms and found that most required aftermarket specialized machining to meet my expectations. This almost doubled my costs of the original weapon platform. There are several good weapon systems on the market, but they did not meet my needs.

A few months later, I met David Ives at another gun show. I had about a hundred questions. Many of the questions were from posts I had seen here on Snipers Hide that I needed specifics on about the Nemesis Arms Vanquish rifle. David answered all my questions in detail. So I put down my deposit and ordered my Vanquish.

Dave also provided some guidance and suggestions on scopes, range finders, etc.: that saved me a lot of money. I have a machinists’ background, so quality workmanship was important to me. I am very impressed with the attention to detail that David puts into each rifle.

With over 3,000 rounds through my Nemesis Arms Vanquish rifle (.308), it has never misfired, jammed or failed. If I am wearing a heavy coat while hunting, I can adjust the stock and hit the game that I am shooting at hundreds of yards away.

If you get a chance to handle a Vanquish, you can see and feel what I am talking about.
 
Re: nemesis arms stock accruate?

Luntist,

What exactly were you wanting in a rifle? What did you use in the military exactly?

I like the nemesis. I would love to handle one some day to understand it further since Its easier to understand it all when you have it in your hands.

Im actually working on a chassis build at the moment and saw the nemesis and how different it was. I had never seen anything like it. Close but not the same. Its an amazing rifle and my father is actually considering it at the moment as his next stick.

Can anyone explain the way the stock works exactly? It looks very much like the cheytac does. Ive never held either though.

Also does the shooter or yourself luntist just hold the bipod when shooting standing up or do you touch the barrel?

Thanks guys for all the answers i was alittle nervous asking questions that I figured everyone knew but me
 
Re: nemesis arms stock accruate?

Hi fish2keel,

<span style="color: #3333FF"><span style="font-style: italic">What exactly were you wanting in a rifle?</span>
</span>
I wanted a precision rifle in 7.62x51mm NATO (.308 Winchester). I did not want to always be looking for more expensive brass in the larger calibers. I was not going to be shooting Extended Long Range since my eye sight is not what it use to be. I wanted it under 15 pounds so that I could use it for hunting also. I wanted it to be short, but accurate. I am not going to be kicking in doors anymore so I did not need an AR for clearing a room. Most Important, it need to be quality made with a manufacturer that stands behind their product 100%.

<span style="color: #3333FF"><span style="font-style: italic">What did you use in the military exactly?</span></span>

The M21 that was later replaced by the M25.

<span style="color: #3333FF"><span style="font-style: italic">I like the Nemesis. I would love to handle one some day to understand it further since its easier to understand it all when you have it in your hands.</span></span>

If you are ever out a range I would be happy to let you squeeze off a few rounds. But I have to warn you, the Vanquish is addictive. It causes you to keep pushing yourself for the tight groups while prone, sitting, kneeling, off a bench, standing and around all types of obstacles.

<span style="color: #3333FF"><span style="font-style: italic">I’m actually working on a chassis build at the moment and saw the nemesis and how different it was. I had never seen anything like it. Close but not the same. It’s an amazing rifle and my father is actually considering it at the moment as his next stick.</span>
</span>
My Dad is 75 years old and we get together a couple of times a year to go out shooting. I get to shoot his M1 and he gets to shoot my Vanquish. Always a fun day since he is a lefty and has been shooting longer than I have been alive.

<span style="color: #3333FF"><span style="font-style: italic">Can anyone explain the way the stock works exactly?</span>
</span>
David at Nemesis Arms is far better than me in explaining the technical attributes of the rifle.

<span style="color: #3333FF"><span style="font-style: italic">It looks very much like the Cheytac does. I’ve never held either though.
</span></span>
Remember the Cheytac was built on the Windrunner platform by EDM Arms. RollingThunder51 has some more descriptive posts on that subject. If I was wanting a 50 Caliber, I would be going after one of EDM Arms rifles.

<span style="color: #3333FF"><span style="font-style: italic">Also does the shooter or yourself Luntist just hold the bipod when shooting standing up or do you touch the barrel?</span>
</span>
Just the bipod, the balance of the rifle does not require you to hold the barrel.

<span style="color: #3333FF"><span style="font-style: italic">Thanks guys for all the answers I was a little nervous asking questions that I figured everyone knew but me.
</span></span>
I have learned a lot from the fellow shooters on this forum. Years of hands on knowledge from all over the world.
 
Re: nemesis arms stock accruate?

As a total amateur, my take is this...
Eliminating movement of the receiver within the stock/chassis has always been a priority, and the reason "they" make- and we spend big bucks to buy- high end stocks with pillars, aluminum bedding blocks, etc. designed to eliminate this movement under the forces of recoil.

Mebbe I'm oversimplifying, but seems to me that Nemesis has decided to eliminate the source of the obstacle to accuracy- the stock/chassis itself. By designing a receiver that's essentially "shootable" in itself, the issue of receiver movement/repeatablity in a stock is suddenly non-existent.

Seems to be an incredibly simple concept, which when combined with extreme precision, yields the stated results.

Yes/No?
 
Re: nemesis arms stock accruate?

Wannashootit, It seems that you are right about it being simple and yet it yields stated results

Also luntist Thanks so much for all of that! You are in the same boat as my father with what he is looking for in a rifle although he already has a m21 system, .308 20" barrel rifle, several ar's, the ak he used over seas and other weapons and is now looking for a .338 lapua system.

I on the other hand have been looking for a rifle platform that is light weight but in .308 and yet is accurate and comfortable. Im going to start a thread on my build on my rifle system.

Also thanks for the invite for shooting the vanquish. I sure would love to sling a few rounds down range. There isn't to many ranges ive found in my neck of the woods(central florida) and even fewer people that are willing to offer advice on shooting long range.
 
Re: nemesis arms stock accruate?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Questions are good!</div></div>

Hope you guys won't mind if I ask a question as well. I recently assumed possession of a Nemesis Windrunner. Can anyone advise on whether or not the Nemesis receiver works with a standard Remington (or other mfg) trigger ... or does it only work with the customized Timney?

Thanks - Corey
 
Re: nemesis arms stock accruate?

It is based off the rem 700 series. However, you will have to convert it to bottom safety.
 
Re: nemesis arms stock accruate?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nemesis</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is based off the rem 700 series. However, you will have to convert it to bottom safety. </div></div>

Sir, that was quick ... thanks! This rifle is a marvelous bit of machining. I'm looking forward to taking it out to the range. Thanks again - Corey
 
Re: nemesis arms stock accruate?

You are very welcome. If you have questions that are not answered here, do not hesitate to call Nemesis Arms direct.
909-446-1111 office