Would you buy one? Curious about what you folks think about .300 win in an ar platform.
Would you like to see .300 win on another AR platform?
Would you like to see .300 win on another AR platform?
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As cool as it would be to shoot one I don't think I would like to own one... If you want a precision rig in something other than 223 or 308 then I would get either a 260 or 6creed..... I would be amazed if it even came close to a sub moa semi auto in terms of a 300win mag..... 308 is bad enough as it is.... Only reason why I hold onto my 308 is ammo is dirt cheap to reload and is just under sub moa.... Yes I can get those stupid small groups here and there but I would say my lmt is more of a .8ish moa rifle on average.... and that is pushing it..... that is just straight up honest. I would be amazed if that nemo on average made 1.75moa.... MAKE NOTE I'm talking about semi auto and not bolt action before people start flaming this... Lol
If all you are doing is punching holes in paper then don't under estimate the accuracy of the 5.56 round up to about 400yards. 5.56 is stupid cheap to reload and can be very sub moa up to about 400yards consistently.... If 500 yards or more and banging steel... Then 308 or 260
If all you are doing is punching holes in paper then don't under estimate the accuracy of the 5.56 round up to about 400yards. 5.56 is stupid cheap to reload and can be very sub moa up to about 400yards consistently.... If 500 yards or more and banging steel... Then 308 or 260
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Couldn't agree more. I saw in the latest AR magazine or one of the gun magazines they tested the Omens accuracy and the average was like 1.3 inches. Thats a big pricetag for 1.3 inches...
But if a more reputable manufacturer made a .300 win ar platform would you be more inclined to by that?
No because it would cost to much to shoot the damm thing for reloading components and i would still be amazed if any manufacture could get it sub moa... Im terms of accuracy shooting a semi auto And shooting a bolt action is two completely different animals. Everyone has their different preferences. Just not my cut of tea type thing.
I thought about that for a long time but eventually realized it's a waste.
For one thing barrel life would be abysmal I mean it'd heat up like hell and the recoil would be astounding. Also for target shooting at long range calibers like 6.5 creedmor are much easier to live with.
Only place I can see it working would be for the military when 308 isn't enough and 50cal is way too much and then they use bolt action 300wins instead.
If you are thinking of designing an AR for the market you are much better off figuring out how to make a good, solid, not too expensive 223 or 308 that works as intended rather than a boutique rifle or larger-than-average caliber.
I've handled (not shot) an Omen and after looking at the rifle and the price tag, I just couldnt understand why someoen would buy it. For the kind of money they want for the thing, it better make my GAP 338LM seem inferior. Unfortunately its the exact opposite. Its more expensive then my GAP, it doesnt shoot nearly as well as my GAP, and its not nearly as tried and true as my GAP. Thus I cannot see any point in owning it.
On the other side of the coin. If I want an accurate and capable semi-auto, I will purcchase a 260 or 6.5. I will then be able to shoot out to 1k, shoot a full mag without turning my barrel bright red, and have accuracy I can appreciate in a custom rifle.
On the other side of the coin. If I want an accurate and capable semi-auto, I will purcchase a 260 or 6.5. I will then be able to shoot out to 1k, shoot a full mag without turning my barrel bright red, and have accuracy I can appreciate in a custom rifle.
Just got in from some shooting in Kalispell MT yesterday at the 100-300 yard Range outside of town.
Got to shoot their .308 Match rifle, 20" barrel with a Vortex viper scope. With 175 gr GMM it appeared to be a .4" rifle at 100 yds and I did five into .75" at 200 yds.
Before i get flamed that ten shots is hardly a thorough test...I know, I KNOW.
Simply relating that the NEMO .308's seem to be accurate.
Got to shoot their .308 Match rifle, 20" barrel with a Vortex viper scope. With 175 gr GMM it appeared to be a .4" rifle at 100 yds and I did five into .75" at 200 yds.
Before i get flamed that ten shots is hardly a thorough test...I know, I KNOW.
Simply relating that the NEMO .308's seem to be accurate.
I'm not sure I'd do .300 win mag in an AR, but I'm thinking about buying a poster of their bada** magazine ad.
omg, I bet that rifle is one heavy S.O.B in a .300 win mag.... my LMT is bad enough as it is..... yes, I use my LMT .308 deer hunting, but the bipod comes off, sun shade comes off, and what ever I can do to get the weight off as much as possible... and i'm sitting in my tree stand on my ass... I think if I had to do some driving in the woods I'd bust out my DPMS 3G1 with its 1-4 vortex pst scope (set at 3x) with offset RTS sights for running deer and would load a 68gr .223 round with a nice damn near maxed out varget powder drop sitting behind it.... man alive, just talking about it makes me want to go deer hunting right now LOL.
So I have handled the OMEN on many occasions, as i have one at my work. I will be shooting it on Monday if all goes well. Sadly it will not be at distance, but just a chance to do a couple mag dumps. The rifle is very light for its size, and easy to wield. The bolt carrier group has an additional buffer built into the rear, to aid in additional recoil dampening. Overall build quality looks exceptional. I will do my best to report back with a little more info after shooting.
I purchased my Nemo Omen three weeks ago and, with a Vortex scope, it shoots great; clover-leaf 5-shot groups at 100 yards all day long. The only problem is finding the right ammo. Nemo advised not to use Hornady Superformance or Federal Fusion ammo due to possibly excessive pressure and I have to add Winchester Super X to the list (9 out of 20 rounds had blown or pierced primers). So far, Remington Core-Lokt, HSM and Federal Vital-Shok have worked well with great accuracy.
Yes, the weapon is heavy, but the weight and the recoil reduction spring built into the bolt carrier work together to lessen felt recoil below that of my .308LR and .450 Bushmaster AR platforms and my .30-06 and 300 Win. Mag. bolt-actions.
Yes, this is an expensive weapon and ammo ain't cheap ($1.50 - $3.00 per round). However, the ranges available in my area no longer allow .338 Lapua or .50 BMW; reportedly, some idiot was shooting over the berm and the range operators chose to listen to their lawyers. Since the ranges accept 300 Win. Mag as a hunting round and allow its use on their property, the Omen provides another option for the maintenance of my marksmanship skills.
Yes, the weapon is heavy, but the weight and the recoil reduction spring built into the bolt carrier work together to lessen felt recoil below that of my .308LR and .450 Bushmaster AR platforms and my .30-06 and 300 Win. Mag. bolt-actions.
Yes, this is an expensive weapon and ammo ain't cheap ($1.50 - $3.00 per round). However, the ranges available in my area no longer allow .338 Lapua or .50 BMW; reportedly, some idiot was shooting over the berm and the range operators chose to listen to their lawyers. Since the ranges accept 300 Win. Mag as a hunting round and allow its use on their property, the Omen provides another option for the maintenance of my marksmanship skills.
OK, I purchased on of these to play with to see what it can do. I topped with a NF 5.5-22x56 and loaded some 208 Amax over H1000. I did a ladder test unit is cratered a primer pretty hard. For those of you that don't think an AR in 300 WM would be of any use....it will hang with most of my rifles. I have 2 GAPS, a DTA, 338 Alan Extreme, and a 6.5-284 custom gun along with a few others. I am very impressed with this MEMO OMEN so far and I think it has a place in long range shooting. I need some further time to test it but I think a 230 Berger and some H1000 might be a pretty awesome set up. Should be a fun 1500 yard gun with out much recoil.
I think you should buy it. And then invite me to shoot it and politely offer some ammo. Then I'll be able to say I've done it (and for free) and you'll have a semi win mag! Everybody wins! : )
take a look at the Arms Tech Limited SMIR Super Match Interdiction Rifle ( Arms Tech Limited ) . I think I'd rather be dealing with that.
Anyone that lives close is welcome to shoot it and I will eventually post some pictures of the groups as I get the load developed. Probably will stick to 190-210 range bullets for this rifle just to have a 1200-1300 yard fun gun with low recoil.
I posted a review in another thread that asked the same question, if you do a search for it, you will find it.
Do I like it? Yes. Would I recommend it? Not unless you have enough money that 5.5K didn't matter much to you. This thing is seriously overpriced.
I would venture to say that if the government does not buy any of these, you will see them lower the price at some point in the future. There simply is not enough "excitement" from the people like me that own them to justify a $5500 price tag. Supply and demand.. once the demand drops off, the price will come down.
Do I like it? Yes. Would I recommend it? Not unless you have enough money that 5.5K didn't matter much to you. This thing is seriously overpriced.
I would venture to say that if the government does not buy any of these, you will see them lower the price at some point in the future. There simply is not enough "excitement" from the people like me that own them to justify a $5500 price tag. Supply and demand.. once the demand drops off, the price will come down.
I agree that the rifle is over priced but isn't everything these days when it comes to firearms. I took this one on trade for some work so it wasn't that big of a deal but I think there may be a need for something like this but the price needs adjusted a little.
I bought mine a year ago. It was $ 4700.00 at that time, not sure why they took such a jump in price. My poor old beat up body can never get the intrinsic accuracy any of these rifles are capable of, but it's nice to own them. I just collect pernicious artwork.
Nope. In my opinion, .300 WM is well on its way out as a go-to long-range cartridge in most circles, other than the life extension it has enjoyed in the US military. It's still plenty viable with certain bullets as a 1000yd + cartridge, but why pay the recoil and weapon weight penalty when you can just go with a 6.5mm, or 7mm if you're messing with a bolt gun?
.260 Remington beats .300 WM for trajectory and wind drift, with less recoil than a .308, using around 40.0gr of powder. 7mm RSAUM or 7mm WSM outclasses .300 WM easily as well when you look at the Berger 180gr VLD.
I still think NEMO has done an excellent job on the engineering and execution of this rifle. I've heard nothing but good reports from reputable people with it, and if you're already plugged into a supply of viable .300 WM ammunition for this system, it might make sense. I don't want my opinion to reflect negatively in any way on the design, workmanship, or performance of this rifle from the manufacturer, because I only see quality so far.
I don't agree on the quality comments, the civilian model, which I OWN, is a 1+ MOA shooter and that is not acceptable for the price and does not reflect high quality. Just because it looks pretty does not mean it is high quality. When you own one, and you shoot it, you quickly discover its shortcomings. The stock is very uncomfortable and hard to get a good visual resting on the cheek rest, the magazines are not that great, the finish on mine (all black) had flaws the day I picked it up, the bolt catch looks cast and not machined, same with the charge handle. The flash suppressor is junk... But the rest of the rifle is good quality.... but not Wilson Combat quality.
I know the saying about opinions, but this platform as delivered by NEMO IS NOT a sub MOA rifle and when you are shooting long ranges this will be a hit and miss platform. 15" of spread due to design/manufacturing at 1000 yards is not acceptable to call this a reliable 1000 yard shooter. There is no way around that unless NEMO delivers the sub MOA version they supposedly designed for the military and do it for the same price. At $5500 this should be a sub MOA gun and it isn't.
I know the saying about opinions, but this platform as delivered by NEMO IS NOT a sub MOA rifle and when you are shooting long ranges this will be a hit and miss platform. 15" of spread due to design/manufacturing at 1000 yards is not acceptable to call this a reliable 1000 yard shooter. There is no way around that unless NEMO delivers the sub MOA version they supposedly designed for the military and do it for the same price. At $5500 this should be a sub MOA gun and it isn't.
RHunter, sorry to hear that. That's a hefty price tag to not get sub MOA performance, especially since the video shows nice little groups being printed with them.
Is it a DI system, or is there an op-rod piston? I wonder what barrels they're using.
Is it a DI system, or is there an op-rod piston? I wonder what barrels they're using.
Rhunter: NEMO has a sub-moa gurantee, so if you are not getting that with your rifle just send it back.
I have had a number of them through the shop for coating and have one here now and can state that the rifles are outstanding quality as far as design, materials and workmanship are concerned and I build high-end customs here...
Here is one I coated for NEMO not too long ago.
I have had a number of them through the shop for coating and have one here now and can state that the rifles are outstanding quality as far as design, materials and workmanship are concerned and I build high-end customs here...
Here is one I coated for NEMO not too long ago.
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My brother and a member of his shooting team went to the range with the vice president of Nemo Arms here in SoCal at our Gun Club; prior to my brother shooting this weapon system he thought much the same as all of you. He shot the Omen and the Watchman which is a longer range version of the Omen. He said it was surprisingly light and it shot Extremely well. The recoil was similar to my brothers .223 AR. The bolt and carrier are extremely unique which absorbs an unbelievable amount of recoil. My brother told me that this rifles quality is extremely high. The Nemo Watchman is $7200+. Not for the faint of heart. My brother is now trying to figure out which of his precision rifles to sell to fund thhe Omen Watchman. It impressed him quite abit. I missed out on shooting it due to work, but my brother assured me that you simply must shoot this thing before casting judgement.
I actually posted this thing a couple days ago and much to my surprise it did not stick. Saw the post hit the top again and went in to check it and noticed it never posted. This is what I wrote below:
Last Friday I had an opportunity to shoot both the OMEN and the OMEN Watchman. The Watchman is brand new and not readily available for the civilian population just yet, but very soon I’m told. I must disclose that I’m not a regular review writer but figured I’d seen this topic come up a couple times and since I had the opportunity to handle this rifle I’d post my thoughts.
At first glance my impression was “wow that appears to be a high quality rifle” The Watchman sports a 24" 1:8 Barrel that shares the same receiver as the standard OMEN. The Watchman also has the PRS stock, 20MOA machined in Rail, adjustable gas system and the hand anodizing extends all the way down the rail. This is a super high quality rifle if you ever get a chance to hold one. I was highly impressed by the detail and thought put into every aspect of the rifle. I particularly like the front rail design and how it twist locked into the upper receiver and then clamped down on the mating barrel nut. This design provided for an extremely stable, almost monolithic rigidity you could feel comfortable hanging anything out there without flex.
Then came the fun part, shooting this beast. Setting up on the rifle feels like most large frame ARs with similar furniture. The trigger was also very familiar as it was a Geissele SSA-E set up very nice. The break was perfect for me, light but not too light, crisp and clean. I had seen the videos, and read all the articles about how light the recoil was, but I've shot lots of WinMag and thought everyone must have been exaggerating. Talk about impressive! If I had been blind folded and sat behind this rifle and never told what round I was shooting I would have guessed a nicely set up 223 shooter the way it felt. The sound coming out of it would have really made me scratch my head because it certainly didn’t sound like 223. I'm not at all kidding, this rifle shot like a kitty cat. I was executing sporting clays at 250 yards and watching them disintegrate. Target reacquisition was made very easy with the recoils system NEMO came up with. I believe this mostly has to do with their unique spring loaded bolt carrier group and custom muzzle device but I may be oversimplifying a little bit. I’d honestly not expect anyone to believe me who's shot a WinMag before but it is the truth.
The load I was shooting used Winchester Brass with 190gr SMK's loaded up with 76gr of H1000. I didn't have a crono with me but Clint from NEMO stated they were running around 2800-2850ish. I could have shot this rifle all day long if permitted. It would have been nice to set paper out to get a clean group but the wind was ripping 20+ MPH and gusting higher. But from how the little sporty clays were getting treated at 250 yards in that wind I think it’s safe to assume this is well under a sub MOA rifle all day long.
I shot the standard OMEN which was bad ass too, but it was running a different muzzle device and I could for sure tell the difference in recoil on that vs. the Watchman. I’m sure some had to do with the extra weight on the Watchman, but I can’t discount the muzzle device Watchman was outfitted with. Both were deadly accurate against the clays at that range and a pleasure to shoot. That’s all I got really. If you ever get a chance, shoot one!
Last Friday I had an opportunity to shoot both the OMEN and the OMEN Watchman. The Watchman is brand new and not readily available for the civilian population just yet, but very soon I’m told. I must disclose that I’m not a regular review writer but figured I’d seen this topic come up a couple times and since I had the opportunity to handle this rifle I’d post my thoughts.
At first glance my impression was “wow that appears to be a high quality rifle” The Watchman sports a 24" 1:8 Barrel that shares the same receiver as the standard OMEN. The Watchman also has the PRS stock, 20MOA machined in Rail, adjustable gas system and the hand anodizing extends all the way down the rail. This is a super high quality rifle if you ever get a chance to hold one. I was highly impressed by the detail and thought put into every aspect of the rifle. I particularly like the front rail design and how it twist locked into the upper receiver and then clamped down on the mating barrel nut. This design provided for an extremely stable, almost monolithic rigidity you could feel comfortable hanging anything out there without flex.
Then came the fun part, shooting this beast. Setting up on the rifle feels like most large frame ARs with similar furniture. The trigger was also very familiar as it was a Geissele SSA-E set up very nice. The break was perfect for me, light but not too light, crisp and clean. I had seen the videos, and read all the articles about how light the recoil was, but I've shot lots of WinMag and thought everyone must have been exaggerating. Talk about impressive! If I had been blind folded and sat behind this rifle and never told what round I was shooting I would have guessed a nicely set up 223 shooter the way it felt. The sound coming out of it would have really made me scratch my head because it certainly didn’t sound like 223. I'm not at all kidding, this rifle shot like a kitty cat. I was executing sporting clays at 250 yards and watching them disintegrate. Target reacquisition was made very easy with the recoils system NEMO came up with. I believe this mostly has to do with their unique spring loaded bolt carrier group and custom muzzle device but I may be oversimplifying a little bit. I’d honestly not expect anyone to believe me who's shot a WinMag before but it is the truth.
The load I was shooting used Winchester Brass with 190gr SMK's loaded up with 76gr of H1000. I didn't have a crono with me but Clint from NEMO stated they were running around 2800-2850ish. I could have shot this rifle all day long if permitted. It would have been nice to set paper out to get a clean group but the wind was ripping 20+ MPH and gusting higher. But from how the little sporty clays were getting treated at 250 yards in that wind I think it’s safe to assume this is well under a sub MOA rifle all day long.
I shot the standard OMEN which was bad ass too, but it was running a different muzzle device and I could for sure tell the difference in recoil on that vs. the Watchman. I’m sure some had to do with the extra weight on the Watchman, but I can’t discount the muzzle device Watchman was outfitted with. Both were deadly accurate against the clays at that range and a pleasure to shoot. That’s all I got really. If you ever get a chance, shoot one!
That is some pretty awesome work.
I am not going to say much more on the quality issue, I have one rifle to form my opinions on and it has not met my expectations... Hell, you should see what I have to go through to remove the cam pin - as it starts to come out, it hits the bottom of the gas key! You really have to pry on it to get it past the key, I haven't done it yet but I need to grind a couple 1000's off the side of the cam pin and then I will be able to get it out/in easily. Not a big deal but this is what was delivered to me for $5,500... You should read the thread I posted about the primer the firing pin pierced and how that piece of the primer cup got stuck in the firing pin hole in the bolt and turned the rifle into a full auto! I'm not kidding! Sure it was a rush sending a mag through it in .25 seconds but when reality sets in, it is a bad joke.
There is no reason a firing pin should be piercing primers unless it is has a design problem... My loads were 3 grains off the lowest recommended for the powder I was using and the pills were 190grain so I am not shooting hot by any means... Owners manual states if it pierces primers, replace the firing pin... Ok.. So I have to call NEMO and get a new firing pin... WHY???? This is a $5,500 rifle! It should not be piercing primers. So NEMO is aware of the problem otherwise they would not be saying anything about it in the Owners manual.
Quality goes a lot further than holding it in your hand and oooooo and awwwing over it. Quality is in how well it functions and how well it shoots. This is not a cheap platform. I should not need to send it to a gunsmith it make it work properly like it was a Russian made saiga. I know that comment is a it extreme but it makes my point...
Shoot a hundred rounds through it and you will soon start to see things that annoy you.... don't get me started on a discussion about the stock... That thing is.... Ahhh forget it...
More like 2650-2700 in an Omen... The Omen barrel is only 22" long... You loose A LOT of velocity from a 300 win mag in a 22" barrel. It's like shooting a 22 mag out of a pistol.
55 grains of 4350 gives me nearly the same velocity out of my 30-06 with a 190...
In imin's defense, he DID say the Watchman he was shooting was rocking a 24" barrel, although that certainly wouldn't account for 200 fps.
At 24" it is probably more around 2700ish.. Still not a very exciting velocity considering it is a 300 win mag. The whole point of a 300 Win Mag is to get velocities out of that pill weight that are pushing 2900 - 3000 FPS and that is what is needed to be effective around 1200 yards.
2700 FPS really is more what to expect out of a 30-06... So if you can get that out of a 30-06, then why have a 300 win mag in the first place? Maybe that is why they are coming out with the Watchman... fixing all the things the OMEN isn't!
RHunter:
Thanks
I don’t disagree with you that a $5,500 rifle should look, function and shoot like one. And, it sucks that yours didn’t live up to your expectations. I would just say that in over 30 years in the business, that I don’t know of a single company that hasn’t, on occasion, put out a gun that had some issues. And, while you shouldn’t have to send it back, that’s exactly what I would do.
Most of my experience with the Omen has been in disassembling, coating and reassembling, so I’m seeing every part on the gun and the quality, but don’t have much time behind the trigger and so can’t comment on that aspect of the gun. I do have one coming in for a local gun writer to test, who is well known and respected in the sniper community. I let you know how that goes.
Thanks
I don’t disagree with you that a $5,500 rifle should look, function and shoot like one. And, it sucks that yours didn’t live up to your expectations. I would just say that in over 30 years in the business, that I don’t know of a single company that hasn’t, on occasion, put out a gun that had some issues. And, while you shouldn’t have to send it back, that’s exactly what I would do.
Most of my experience with the Omen has been in disassembling, coating and reassembling, so I’m seeing every part on the gun and the quality, but don’t have much time behind the trigger and so can’t comment on that aspect of the gun. I do have one coming in for a local gun writer to test, who is well known and respected in the sniper community. I let you know how that goes.
Nope, I'm a bolt action guy. Plus it's too fooking much money for something that wont shoot sub MOA.
Hello all. New to this site but long time reader. Just wanted to chime in on a couple of things
Nemo does offer a 26" match barrel with the Omen.
Regarding the Watchmen, I saw 1 already available for sale in my local gun shop in Culver City last week.
Nemo does offer a 26" match barrel with the Omen.
Regarding the Watchmen, I saw 1 already available for sale in my local gun shop in Culver City last week.
They do shoot sub-moa and have a sub-moa guarantee.
shot one and they have as much recoil or even less than a 223, but they sure are loud. I think I'd rather get an AI or some custom bolt gun rather than these.
I would have preferred to see a design in 30.06 not 300wm. Jmo.
I have seen conflicting marketing on this, I have read that their "military" version is guaranteed sub MOA and the "civilian" model is only a MOA shooter...
But I have also had someone at NEMO clain they are effective out to 1400 meters... Which is complete BS... Do the numbers on ballistics for this thing and you, too, will cry foul.
I think I will get a new firing pin for mine and fix the cam pin issue and put it up for sale. There is a semi auto 30-06 out there I saw recently and I will get that...
Ha, found the page...
I can get 3 of these for the price of one OMEN:
OnlyLongRange - Noreen Firearms BN36
I have it in writing (email) from a senior exec at NEMO, who I have known for a number of years, that they do have a sub-moa guarantee for all Omen's. Here is his reply: 1. We guarantee sub-MOA. We typically get .75. Sometimes better.
I have also coated several Omen's for Army SF Snipers and have one here now for a Navy sniper. I can tell you that their reports are extremely positive from both state side T&E and actual combat use.
Tag I might need one
There is a write up about the Omen in the November/December 2013 issue of Rifle Shooter magazine.
Their accuracy results were:
Black Hills 178 grain A-Max, vel=2955 1.4 MOA
Black Hills matchking 190 grain, vel=2919 0.9 MOA
Hornady A-Max 178 vel=2972 1.3 MOA
Prvi Partizan SP 180 grain vel=2821 1.8 MOA
Winchester XP3 150 grain vel=3292 1.7 MOA
Handload matchking 190 grain vel=2615 1.2 MOA
Handload A-Max 208 grain vel=2587 1.1 MOA
average for all loads=1.342 MOA
For the price, I would have hoped the rifle gave better overall performance.
Their accuracy results were:
Black Hills 178 grain A-Max, vel=2955 1.4 MOA
Black Hills matchking 190 grain, vel=2919 0.9 MOA
Hornady A-Max 178 vel=2972 1.3 MOA
Prvi Partizan SP 180 grain vel=2821 1.8 MOA
Winchester XP3 150 grain vel=3292 1.7 MOA
Handload matchking 190 grain vel=2615 1.2 MOA
Handload A-Max 208 grain vel=2587 1.1 MOA
average for all loads=1.342 MOA
For the price, I would have hoped the rifle gave better overall performance.
You have to consider the shooter and the ammo in the equasion. Fortier is no death dealing sniper or bench rest master... Also, most of the ammo used is not what the Omen is intended to digest, which is 190 MK's and heavier and note that the BH factory 190 MK's outshot the guys 190 MK handloads... Whats up with that? Not what you would normally expect.
It seems you don’t understand the concept of a “Sub-MOA Guarantee” which is a guarantee from the manufacturer that if their gun doesn’t shoot sub-moa, with the intended loads (usually performed from a mechanical rest) then they will take it back and make it right.
It appears to me, you would rather bitch, complain and bad mouth, rather than sending the rifle back like you should, if what your saying is true. You also should do your own research, rather than just repeating another person’s post and ignoring other pertinent facts. Such as, on page 40 of the referenced article, Fortier states “My best group of the day was 10 rounds into 0.7 inch at 100 yards”. He also states that with the same BH factory 190gr, MK he fired four five shot groups at 100 that averaged 0.9. A rifle which doesn’t have the intrinsic mechanical accuracy simply can’t do that. In addition, if you had read the article you would have, or maybe not, have noted the fact that the scope he was using was a dual first/second focal plane reticule , which is intended for CQB to moderate range work and has a ½ MOA center dot, which limits fine aiming ability for precision work.
My next point is that there are other variables, such as the skill of the shooter, this author has no credentials in benchrest or sniper competition or military or law enforcement background, etc as I previously ponted out. He also, for the most part, chose ammo the gun was not intended to shoot well or known for its accuracy, 150gr Win, and Privi Partisan, etc as well as any environmental factors.
So, considering all of the above factors, the gun still showed it was capable of sub-moa accuracy and you, in fact, did not prove your point.
Again, if your particular rifle doesn’t shoot sub-moa at all and you refuse to avail yourself of the manufacturers guarantee, to in good faith fix it, then you forfeit your right to complain, and you then become little more than a reputation sniper.
Seems YOU don't understand the concept of a “Sub-MOA Guarantee”. A rifle guaranteed as such will shoot to that specification as manufactured not after it is reworked.
You know what gives me the right to bitch about this gun? The fucking $5500 I paid for it! Ownership gives me every right to bitch, moan, groan, gripe, whine, and COMPLAIN about the gun I OWN in a public forum where I was asked my opinion.
For $5500 I should not have to send the gun back to "make it right" or shoot within their guarantee. I should not have to deal with that pain in the ass for that kind of money. My gun should have never left NEMO with the skuffs it had in the finish on the barrel that was behind the forearm. That did not happen when UPS shipped it to the dealer and while it was on he dealers shelf. The guy at NEMO who assembled the bolt knew there was a problem with getting the cam pin in and out of the bolt because you have to pound the thing in to get it to clear the gas key.
These 2 things = a lack of quality control. Yet, according to you, that is somehow my problem and I am the bad guy here because I don't pack it up and send it back? Are you insane or just sticking up for your friends?
They should not be publishing warning messages in their owners manual to replace the firing pin if it is piercing primers. If they know they have an issue with that then they should address the issue so they don't have to put the warning (hand-highlighted with yellow marker) in their owners manual. I never in my life when buying a gun have seen a warning message like that attached to a "precision" firearm. The least they could have done is included a second firing pin with the rifle just in case the one installed was piercing primers so you do not have to call NEMO and get another firing pin.
When a consumer pays $5,500 for a firearm there are certain expectations that consumer has. For the money my expectations were not met. Especially when I compare the value I have received from other manufacturers for less money. Do you know how much of a warm, happy, and fuzzy feeling you get when you spend $5,500 on a Wilson Combat product? If not, maybe you should buy something from them. You want to talk about quality! Their product reeks of pride in manufacturing and that pride is transferred to the owner. I have never, ever, been able to find something to bitch about on a Wilson Combat firearm. Go have a look at a Classic Supergrade at a dealer (if you can even find one on the shelf) and see the quality you get for $5,000 from them. Have a look at the quality of the machining and the finish. Then compare that to an Omen and get back to me and tell me how good the Omen is.
Wilson's quality control is so good, they have a 2 page checklist included with the firearm that every smith that worked on the gun has to sign off on. Every single step in the manufacturing process of the gun is listed on that checklist. If it isn't right, it does not ship. THAT is quality control and you get that for a lot less money than $5500.
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To both RHunter and kl3309:
I have never known a single company in the history of firearms manufacturing that didn’t have a gun that, for whatever reason, went out the door with some issue or problem and had to be returned.
My issue with you RHunter, is that you are going beyond complaining about your individual rifle any directly implying that because your rifle didn’t shoot sub-moa that the Omen is simply not a sub-moa gun. I have seen more examples than you have and talked to more people (active duty SF snipers) who have hands on experience and their experience is different. So, based on my experience I would conclude the Omen is a very high quality gun that consistently shoots sub-moa with the right ammo and shooter. Maybe it’s you, maybe the ammo, or maybe the gun. But you are now on a rant trashing the reputation of good decent people, including combat vets (Gen Paul Vallely, etc) who started the company, just because you were dissatisfied.
As far as Wilson combat goes, I think very highly of them. Great company and great products. I also build custom 1911’a and my guns have appeared in numerous magazines. I just finished a custom Colt Delta Elite that is going in Combat Handguns, etc. Not too long ago, a good customer of mine, a gun shop in Texas who is a Wilson Combat Master Dealer ordered and received a matched set of Supergrades that ran over $10,000. Upon examining them, he noticed the feed ramp on one was not polished, the serrations on the back of the slide on one was messed up and a total of six fairly significant cosmetic/quality issues. I can provide the dealers name and contact info in a PM or a written statement if needed.
Prior to that, he had Nighthawk Custom send me a Talon II to coat. The Talon had to be sent back to Nighthawk for warranty issues (it was new) and while it was there he (the dealer) wanted them to do a series of extra mods. When I got the pistol it was in such bad condition I couldn’t coat it. Some work that was supposed to be done wasn’t and other work done really badly. I have pictures and emails to prove this. He had me fix all the work, which Nighthawk paid for and do some other custom work on it. When he got it back he sent an email that said WOW!!!, Just WOW!!!!!!! And, yes, I have both the email and pics. So, I wouldn’t buy a Wilson because I build my own. But neither this dealer or I went out on the forums and trashed Wilson or Nighthawk. He just sent the Supergrades back and Wilson made it right. Same situation with the Nighthawk (some after pics provided for proof) , shit happens sometimes, but it all worked out in the end.
Even the best companies and the best people make mistakes sometimes and I believe in giving them the opportunity to make it right before trashing their good name.
I have never known a single company in the history of firearms manufacturing that didn’t have a gun that, for whatever reason, went out the door with some issue or problem and had to be returned.
My issue with you RHunter, is that you are going beyond complaining about your individual rifle any directly implying that because your rifle didn’t shoot sub-moa that the Omen is simply not a sub-moa gun. I have seen more examples than you have and talked to more people (active duty SF snipers) who have hands on experience and their experience is different. So, based on my experience I would conclude the Omen is a very high quality gun that consistently shoots sub-moa with the right ammo and shooter. Maybe it’s you, maybe the ammo, or maybe the gun. But you are now on a rant trashing the reputation of good decent people, including combat vets (Gen Paul Vallely, etc) who started the company, just because you were dissatisfied.
As far as Wilson combat goes, I think very highly of them. Great company and great products. I also build custom 1911’a and my guns have appeared in numerous magazines. I just finished a custom Colt Delta Elite that is going in Combat Handguns, etc. Not too long ago, a good customer of mine, a gun shop in Texas who is a Wilson Combat Master Dealer ordered and received a matched set of Supergrades that ran over $10,000. Upon examining them, he noticed the feed ramp on one was not polished, the serrations on the back of the slide on one was messed up and a total of six fairly significant cosmetic/quality issues. I can provide the dealers name and contact info in a PM or a written statement if needed.
Prior to that, he had Nighthawk Custom send me a Talon II to coat. The Talon had to be sent back to Nighthawk for warranty issues (it was new) and while it was there he (the dealer) wanted them to do a series of extra mods. When I got the pistol it was in such bad condition I couldn’t coat it. Some work that was supposed to be done wasn’t and other work done really badly. I have pictures and emails to prove this. He had me fix all the work, which Nighthawk paid for and do some other custom work on it. When he got it back he sent an email that said WOW!!!, Just WOW!!!!!!! And, yes, I have both the email and pics. So, I wouldn’t buy a Wilson because I build my own. But neither this dealer or I went out on the forums and trashed Wilson or Nighthawk. He just sent the Supergrades back and Wilson made it right. Same situation with the Nighthawk (some after pics provided for proof) , shit happens sometimes, but it all worked out in the end.
Even the best companies and the best people make mistakes sometimes and I believe in giving them the opportunity to make it right before trashing their good name.
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Didn't you just trash Wilson Combat, et al., in your reply? And post uncomplimentary pictures on a public forum to further defame them? Kinda makes you a hypocrite.
Each and every customer has the absolute right to voice their dissatisfaction with any company that delivers an unsatisfactory product, especially at the premium prices that have been paid. If you don't like it, make sure your shit is straight before it leaves your hands or get out of the business.
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One issue I can forgive for reasons you cite. I agree, we are all human and make mistakes BUT, a bad firing pin, bad bolt machining and/or cam pin design, poor quality finish work, and not a sub MOA shooter all rolled up in one rifle tells me NEMO has quality control issues. We are talking about 4 significant issues in one rifle. A final inspection would have discovered the scuffs to the finish on the barrel, the fact that they let this go out the door on this one issue alone, says a lot about the quality control of the company. When you need a mallet to pound the cam pin into the bolt also says the exact same thing about their quality control. For $5,500 you would expect better quality control procedures.
I am not discrediting the character of the individuals that own the company. Never once did I say they were bad people. I don know them. What I am conveying to the readers is my experience with, and my opinion of, their product. I looked at 3 other omens before the one I ordered FINALLY arrived (which took an amazing 7 months to get one in all black which was also an absurd wait time) and all had some noticeable issue or features that you would not expect on a rifle priced this high... cast bolt catch, cast charging handle are two that really stick out... Load a mag to capacity and the last round is not held secure because the sides of the mag start to bulge... We have all seen this before on cheap plastic mags... The mags for an omen do not appear to be made from FRP.
Do I need to offer my opinion on how comfortable the stock is and how hard it is to get a good sight picture using it? Or how not-so-well the mono pod works? How about how comfortable a square butt pad is when you pull the rifle into your shoulder? I see they are going to a magpul product for the watchman so I am sure there is a good reason for it. The stock on them now is not that great. I like their marketing spin on it though.. "Less is more".. that is complete BS. That is what you say to your buyers when you know the stock is crap. I bought the rifle on the hype and what I received reminds me of Obamacare.
If people like me never bitch about the product how will NEMO ever improve it? They need to hear how happy/unhappy their customers are. If all I do is blow smoke up their ass like some gun groupie they will not strive to make a better product.
I now see that they have lowered their lowest advertised price to under $5,000, I bet they lowered the cost of the rifle as well to the dealers. How do you think that makes me feel after coughing up $5,500 for their rifle? Like I was robbed.
I second that.
No, actually I didn’t "trash" them. I clearly stated that "I think very highly of them. Great company and great products". My response was a direct counterpoint to RHunter’s statement specifically about Wilson and I only used this one example to illustrate the point I had made previously. That, even the best companies and people sometimes make mistakes and should only be judged after being given the opportunity to correct those mistakes. The photos were of the Nighthawk, not a Wilson and I didn’t publish the before photos, as I had committed not to do.
I have no problem with RHunter sharing his experience and opinion, as he did in his most recent post. He should not have gotten a rifle with any problems, that shoots sub-moa and that he is completely happy with. However, you should also be willing to accept that others may have had different experiences and that those experiences and opinions are just as valid and should be considered in context.
RedCreek1:
Sir, I do not care anything about this product nor am I paying heed to anyone's opinion of it, good or bad. I happened to have been browsing the forums out of boredom and ran across your taking a fellow member to task for expressing his view.
RHunter had spent a quite sizeable sum of money to acquire the product. That alone gives him the right to say anything he wants about it.
By the way, it is quite evident that your familiarity with the company and its management have biased your viewpoint.
Good day, the floor is yours.
Sir, I do not care anything about this product nor am I paying heed to anyone's opinion of it, good or bad. I happened to have been browsing the forums out of boredom and ran across your taking a fellow member to task for expressing his view.
RHunter had spent a quite sizeable sum of money to acquire the product. That alone gives him the right to say anything he wants about it.
By the way, it is quite evident that your familiarity with the company and its management have biased your viewpoint.
Good day, the floor is yours.
