What’s the proper statistical design for multiple, concurrent variables which may or may not have an association of causality?
Miltivariate Analysis?
Precision Rifle Gear New Athlon Rangecraft Chronograph-Garmin Xero Killer?
- Thread starter Steel+Killer
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What’s the proper statistical design for multiple, concurrent variables which may or may not have an association of causality?
Miltivariate Analysis?
That depends, are we talking real statistics or the kind where someone says my buddy chrono’d it once and it was sub MOA?
We already have an abundance of Bubbasayso here
Honestly, I don’t even know if our results even follow a true Normal Distribution, or if we have the proper resolutiom to document some of our interventions
How does one mix multiple, graduated and single “I did this” interventions?
How does one properly define group size / scatter?
I really dunno…
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At least we’re honest about the challenges.We already have an abundance of Bubbasayso here
Honestly, I don’t even know if our results even follow a true Normal Distribution, or if we have the proper resolutiom to document some of our interventions
How does one mix multiple, graduated and single “I did this” interventions?
How does one properly define group size / scatter?
I really dunno…
Multivariate model would be a good direction to move towards since we’re looking to determine which factors may or may not cause one another, or just the end outcome.
Either way I still believe SD is of lower importance in the bigger picture.
I shot a 5 shot group with factory federal gold medal sierra match kings, with a 5.9 SD.
That came out of a 20” fluted barrel that already showed signs of too much pressure after a 3 shot string..
Accurate enough and will be used for hunting, but clearly not a good rifle to compete with, regardless of the elusive single digit SD.
macbook here and the app works to connect to the laptop where I'll actually use the data, no need to hop the data from phone to laptop
I managed to get in some rounds with an air gun on mine today, real range will still have to wait.
This is the first chono I've ever owned that reliably tracks low speed .177 projectiles without fussy setup and numerous test shots.
Out of the box and set up a quick start session in < 5 minutes. Ran two sessions of 5 shots each and it didn't miss a beat.
The controls are intuitive enough that no manual reference was needed to sort it out.
I'm still interested in following up on the fps differences I'm seeing in some of the videos but ease of setup, laptop connectivity and (so far) reliability makes it a win for me.
Did you get the athlon ballistics app from the mac app store, then just use laptop bluetooth to sync? Thats pretty slick. Didnt even consider doing that..
App from the app store, bluetooth yes
The setup instructions call it the "Lite" app but it doesn't say "Lite" in the app store.
Also, even when you open it on the laptop it stays tiny phone sized
BUT! ... it works. Sessions can be renamed, shots and projectiles can be edited. I find the app itself a little clunky to navigate but I've seen worse.
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I saw that as well. Also saw a search option that was mac-specific apps, instead of "ios". Learned something new, that mac can run iphone/ipad apps, ones not originally made for running on a mac. That explains the tiny app screen size.App from the app store, bluetooth yes
The setup instructions call it the "Lite" app but it doesn't say "Lite" in the app store.
Also, even when you open it on the laptop it stays tiny phone sized
BUT! ... it works. Sessions can be renamed, shots and projectiles can be edited. I find the app itself a little clunky to navigate but I've seen worse.
I *think* it might be Apple silicon macs only. Not sure it will work on Intel chipped macs.
Even if that’s the case, it’s a whole lot better than my Caldwell. It reads 70-100 fps high. I compared it directly with a used Magnetospeed I bought, and damn it reads high. I might throw the Magnetospeed on with the Athlon to directly compare, but the Athlon gave very similar numbers. Whole lot better than the Caldwell.
I’m not a huge fan of having to back clear out of a string to start a new string, but that’s really the only major complaint I’ve had so far.
On a total side note, I ran some 115 gr PMC vs 147 AE from my PX4 while I was still at the range. PMC is loaded crazy light (~1050 fps) while the 3.3” barrel is getting box velocity from AE 147’s.
I have yet to get my phone to connect to the device.App from the app store, bluetooth yes
The setup instructions call it the "Lite" app but it doesn't say "Lite" in the app store.
Also, even when you open it on the laptop it stays tiny phone sized
BUT! ... it works. Sessions can be renamed, shots and projectiles can be edited. I find the app itself a little clunky to navigate but I've seen worse.
The app is squirrely designed. Not sure if you figured that out yet.
Apologies in advance if this is all obvious to you. Not judging just detailing what works for me.
ETA: check in the settings on the radar if "connection" is "on" ... mine was on by default
The steps to connect from the app are
click the hamburger at the top right
select "connect device" - you should see two things "athlon thermals" with "connect" under it and "velocity pro radar" with "enter" under it
click "enter" under "velocity pro radar"
on mine there's a "reconnect" button that's darked out but yours should have a "connect" button IIRC
I have no idea why there are two different fkn connect buttons, I clicked the "connect" button under thermals like 3 times before I decided to see what was on the other side of "enter" under radar
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Ok thanks. I think that’s what I was doing, however I was more concerned with actually shooting that day. I’ll mess with it more when I’m not actually trying to do something semi important. I do, however, believe I see how it’s slightly squirrelly.
Nitpicking that Athlon Rangecraft app and maybe the Rangecraft firmware.
The Rangecraft chronograph itself I'm happy with in terms of performance and ease of use.
Nits
The xlsx data exported includes a time for each shot in minute resolution but does not include a date which might be useful. I'm assuming the Rangecraft firmware would be responsible for recording the date. It wouldn't need to be a date for each shot, even a single date somewhere in the file would be useful. The date of the session is clearly visible in the chronograph session history it just never makes it from the chronograph to the exported data.
The app is kludgy to navigate for Rangecraft purposes. The ballistic portion of the app is front stage with the chronograph portion basically spackled into it.
The default session name for every rifle session in the app is just "RIFLE". It would be nice if the default name included a unique identifier but for this to really matter the export function needs to be improved. This is the same for "PISTOL" and all the rest.
The export function. Every session exported defaults to the exact same name "output.xlsx" not even the default session name in the app. Not "Rifle", not "Pistol" and absolutely no unique identifier just "output.xlsx". Every session exported has to be individually renamed as it's being exported EVEN THOUGH the app gives you the ability to rename each session inside the app.
The session name isn't even included in the exported spreadsheet. It's as if the ability to rename the session in the app serves no purpose whatsoever. Including the session name from the app in the spreadsheet might be too much to ask since the xlsx is probably generated on the chronograph.
The Rangecraft chronograph itself I'm happy with in terms of performance and ease of use.
Nits
The xlsx data exported includes a time for each shot in minute resolution but does not include a date which might be useful. I'm assuming the Rangecraft firmware would be responsible for recording the date. It wouldn't need to be a date for each shot, even a single date somewhere in the file would be useful. The date of the session is clearly visible in the chronograph session history it just never makes it from the chronograph to the exported data.
The app is kludgy to navigate for Rangecraft purposes. The ballistic portion of the app is front stage with the chronograph portion basically spackled into it.
The default session name for every rifle session in the app is just "RIFLE". It would be nice if the default name included a unique identifier but for this to really matter the export function needs to be improved. This is the same for "PISTOL" and all the rest.
The export function. Every session exported defaults to the exact same name "output.xlsx" not even the default session name in the app. Not "Rifle", not "Pistol" and absolutely no unique identifier just "output.xlsx". Every session exported has to be individually renamed as it's being exported EVEN THOUGH the app gives you the ability to rename each session inside the app.
The session name isn't even included in the exported spreadsheet. It's as if the ability to rename the session in the app serves no purpose whatsoever. Including the session name from the app in the spreadsheet might be too much to ask since the xlsx is probably generated on the chronograph.
After many failed attempts over multiple days and system resets, one of my Athlons will connect, but simply will NOT sync sessions to my phone. That's been kind of frustrating for me - especially when I'm trying to compile data from several chronographs at the same time and have to do manual data entry for the simple fact that one unit will not sync. I've also experienced co-channel interference with all 3 of the Athlons I have used - I'm not sure if they're accepting NEAR-channel interference instead of co-channel, but it's strange that I've had such bad luck in getting 3 out of 3 to interfere, whereas I've not had that experience with Garmins or LabRadar LX's as pervasively as I do with the Athlons (you can see the 1400fps reading on the bottom left Garmin - that ONLY happens when I have co-channel interference). It CAN happen to any of them - the V1 and the VelociRadar pictured here interfere both directions with the 2 Athlons pictured (interfering 1 each), but acoustic triggers (which the V1 and VR are using) hide the interference better than radar triggered units (which the Athlons use). Eliminating the co-channel units, the Athlons operate perfectly fine and offer more consistent readings with the rest of the units.
I think you have officially gone too far.
Eh, folks wanna know stuff, and I like experimenting when I have time and ability. I kinda accidentally ended up with a bunch of chronos, 8 units of 7 different make/model, folks asked questions, so I designed some experiments for comparison - then the preliminary testing revealed additional testing to be done, especially with multiple units of the same brand, and someone had a VelociRadar I could borrow, so I actually have 11 chronos of 8 different models right now to do a lot of comparison.
But yeah, it's a rather large pain in the ass that I can't run all 8 radar units concurrently due to the near/co-channel interferences. So I have to pick and choose which can be concurrently operated and then design the tests around minimizing the round count (running 100 round strings across 11 units, even in pairs, is a LOT of rounds). But I'm trying to answer questions which different folks have had about them.
Apple or Android? Mostly just curious about this point.
I'm running the app on my macbook and it "syncs" between the chronograph and the app on the laptop if that's what you mean. All the sessions are visible in the app and I can rename them and mess with them to the limits of what the app allows. The new names haven't yet been synced back to the chrono that I have noticed.
Downloading the sessions to my laptop for use by something else like a spreadsheet app is not accomplished with "sync". Each file has to be saved to the device individually renaming each one in the process.
Yes. The video of the interview with Dustin Harding of Athlon linked by someone in a previous post addressed this but Dustin dodged the question. Basically, by not directly answering the question, Dustin confirmed the Rangecraft is not as good as other devices at filtering out competing signals from other radars. Maybe it will be addressed in a future update, maybe not.
Interesting you got this result. It seems to differ from some other results.
I'm having a hard time spotting the Magneto Speed. Is it wearing grass camo?
this video starting around 10:30 ... Dustin calls it an "analyzing loop" around 11:30 ... caused by interference
I use iOS.
When opening the "manage tab" of each Athlon Velocity Pro in the app - on iOS - the units generally automatically sync sessions into the phone. When this doesn't happen automatically, typically there is a "sync sessions" button at the bottom of the app interface page. One of my Athlons will readily do that transfer, or will accept the instruction to sync. My second unit cannot be made to sync - it spins the wheel of death for hours without syncing. I'm going to do another hard reboot and reinstall the updated firmware and hope it clears, now that I have extracted the data manually, but I have not had luck so far.
I can't speak to the mac based App, but once sessions are synced from the unit to the phone, they can be exported as .csv, at which point the iOS interface allows the destination of the export to be an email (or any of a dozen other options, such as opening with specific spreadsheet apps or saving as pdf, or opening with other apps), so I simply export to email and then open the .csv's in Excel. Other than the fact they all export as individual files without descriptive filenames, this works quickly and easily.
I'm not terribly certain at this point if the Athlon is actually worse than "other devices" or not. The "other devices" I have tested include 3 brand/models which are acoustic or recoil trigger only, which means they would only exhibit bad behavior AFTER a shot has been fired. The Athlons, alternatively, are radar triggered, so comparatively, their triggers are always open. So when I have known interfering units operating (such as my LabRadar V1 and my first Athlon, or the Caldwell VelociRadar I have and my second Athlon), the Athlon will trigger repeatedly, non-stop, as if it were constantly receiving shots, even if there is no gun on the firing line. However, the VelociRadar will SEEM as if it is not experiencing interference, but ONLY because it has not been actively triggered. However, once it "hears" a shot with the acoustic trigger, it will experience the same co-channel interference and remains at risk of reading a false echo (the echo from the OTHER co-channel unit rather than their own) and displaying a false velocity. Both LabRadar V1 and LabRadar LX work this same way - acoustic or recoil trigger only, so they too would also SEEM to be operating normally until the shot is fired, but then once triggered, they'd accept the false echo and report a false velocity.
I've seen false echo receipt a few times with Garmins - sometimes we'll see shots reporting over 4,000fps, which indicates they received a false echo from another unit, but I have NEVER seen the Garmins be triggered by Radar, AND it has been very rare to see Garmins interfering. We end up with a bunch of Garmins on the same firing line at PRS match zero boards, and it is exceedingly rare to see interference indicators, whereas 3 out of 3 of the Athlons I have used have fallen into constant feedback loops where they are being triggered and displaying "analyzing" and even reporting velocities for shots which did not happen.
So I'm suspicious but have not yet confirmed that Athlons are accepting NEAR-channel interference rather than simply accepting co-channel interference (which cannot be avoided by ANY of the radar units on the market).
BUT I WILL OFFER A WARNING TO VIEWERS - I believe it will be common for people to see video of folks using LabRadars or VelociRadars to show a lopsided and false representation that the Athlons are unilaterally accepting co-channel interference because we can make them spaz out by turning on the co-channel units. The Athlon will go into a continuous loop, whereas the LabRadar and VelociRadar will APPEAR to be fine... but ONLY because they have not yet been triggered to read, whereas the Athlon IS getting triggered by radar. The LabRadars and VelociRadar will still experience the false velocity output once they are triggered - but it's easy to make a video which seems very, very one sided. I have this kind of video myself, but I'm not yet sharing them until I can properly demonstrate the bi-directional interference instead of making the Athlon look like it is failing.
Not sure what to tell you, other than to describe that by the end of that preliminary interference test pictured above (a test conducted to evaluate the validity experimental design for future tests), I fired a 100 round string with 6 units operating, removing the LabRadar V1 and the Caldwell VelociRadar, which demonstrated to interfere with the 2 Athlons. I'm compiling that information to share in threads like this around the internet and in a forthcoming video (series of videos maybe), but here's an example of the alignment of results when the interferences are eliminated - all 6 units, 2 Athlons, 2 Garmins, and 2 LabRadar LX's agree within 3 fps 1165fps to 1168fps (left side LX was not updated for firmware and was displaying only whole integer velocities, rather than the updated LX on the right side which displays decimal value velocities.
This has been my consistent experience when interference is not happening - observationally, the units are reading within a few fps of each other overall, and within each brand, typically the variance is less than 1fps. As the rain subsides in the next days and weeks, I will share more data to confirm or correct this observation, knowing now which units can and cannot be operated concurrently.
The test pictured was a preliminary operability test to determine interferences for the Radar units to let me determine the volume of sampling I will have to do in order to capture the necessary dataset for this comparison. I want to be able to display data from concurrent operation, but I knew the opportunity for co-channel interference existed, so the test above was the opportunity to test which units can be concurrently operated and which units would interfere. I have to trade out the interfering units one at a time to enable the future testing. Not pictured there, as they were not included in the preliminary radar interference test, are my Magnetospeed V3, MacDonald 2 Box, and CE ProChrono Digital. Since these 3 units aren't radars, I did not include them in the radar interference test.
I might be picking nits here, but I don't really like "analyzing loop," to describe what we're seeing. Judd used the same language - "analyzing loop" - on the phone when I called after the first instance of interference on the first day with my Athlon, but I'm not terribly certain I'd agree with that particular language - I don't necessarily perceive that it's just "analyzing" and then picking a high velocity, but rather the units are in a re-triggering loop because of radar feedback from the interfering units.
In that Paramount video above, we can't really tell which unit is interfering with that visible Athlon, since we can only see 2 of the 5, but I would bet it was the LabRadar. The LabRadar would appear to be fine, since it wasn't yet triggered between shots, but it's quite likely that it was displaying false velocities when triggered. The Athlon is radar triggered, so it's being repeatedly triggered by the interference. The Garmin could exhibit the same issue - potentially - since it is also radar triggered, so the fact the Garmin screen isn't constantly recycling in the same way as the Athlon, I'm betting the co-channel interference was with the LabRadar and being hidden by the fact the LabRadar uses an acoustic trigger rather than Radar.
The high velocities being displayed are almost assuredly false-echo registrations. The signal from another unit comes back and the timing offset is just wrong, so then the unit displays an incorrect velocity. Alternatively, when the Athlons are showing the chronic "analyzing" on the screen, I believe that is multiple trigger events, rather than just persistent processing. You'll see the screen flash back and forth, indicating the analysis is ending, skipping some false echoes, registering others. As I mentioned, any radar triggered unit could exhibit that issue, it's just odd that we're seeing it so much more commonly from the Athlons than the Garmins, which makes me think the Athlon may be more susceptible to NEAR-channel interference rather than strict co-channel (this COULD also describe a potential difference for inequitable interference from Athlon to another unit brand, but that's pure speculation on my part at this time).
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You're not. The analyzing loop is simply inferior engineering, either hardware or firmware. If it's firmware they can fix it if they actually have the skills. If it's hardware then that will eventually be the death of the product unless they offer a recall to fix it.
It bugs me a little that Dustin visibly squirmed in his chair and gathered his thoughts when the issue was presented. Maybe it's just me but it seems like it was a well known problem and they actually decided not to fix it " in a rush to get it out the door.
That squirm in that chair, that answer to the analyzing issue, the misspelled "Muzzel" on the splash screen and the issues I nitpicked earlier all give me second thought about their entire approach.
"How you do anything is how you do everything." -- Unknown
If I hadn't jumped in early and got it for $350 I'd be second guessing the purchase even at $399. But I'm not sure I'd be jumping on a Xero for $549 either. If I was going to spend that kind of money I'd be taking a hard look at the Labradar LX because of that one extra downrange data point but I'd use once in a blue moon but why not get it for only $50 more ... as long as they all work that is.
I haven't looked at the FCC statements from all the various units but Dustin mentioned in the video there are a limited number of "channels" these devices can operate on.
It's basically the same problem as your home WiFI router. If you are having lousy connections/bandwidth with your home WiFi you used to have to put an analyzer on your phone to see if your neighbors unit was on the same frequencies and move yours. Nowadays all these devices take care of this themselves. It's a known problem with a known solution, there is no technical reason they shouldn't have this solved.
Seems reasonable. Kinda like the old jammers you could buy for po-po radar.
I hope it's something they can address in firmware but I'm not worried a ton about any of these problems because I don't see myself being in a situation where I'm sharing a bench/ranch with a bunch of other FPS nerds. I could be wrong and I'll be mad when it happens but willing to take that chance at the moment.
Street price for the Xero is around $475 these days.
Like I mention, observationally, I do not think these units are really stuck constantly analyzing, but rather are retriggering and simply analyzing many, many triggers. So it’s like having a thousand small math problems to do instead of being stuck on one long math problem.
Co- channel interference is an issue for any civilian radar unit. That’s unavoidable, other than frequency hopping, which none of them are doing (to my knowledge after discussing with each manufacturer).
Only around 100 different channels are available. So having 8 units on the line in such close proximity, I have a relatively high likelihood of interference.
Most of these are multi-channel devices with frequency hopping opportunity, which simply doesn’t apply to the ballistic chronographs - because they aren’t.
Essentially, yeah. True jammers are transmitter/receivers which issue an off-sequence signal, measuring and returning a true interference signal. They CAN be simplified by issuing broad channel signals which do interrupt accurate reading of a radar gun.
I don’t expect they can fix co-channel interference via firmware. The units would have to have the ability to frequency hop to “run away” from co-channel interference, which would still only offer them the same list of ~100 channels, and have the same odds of interfering with another unit - and maybe inconveniently, two units might hop back together when trying to hop apart. It adds complexity and cost, for something which only happens for us experimenters who bring a bunch of radars together, or potentially for competitors where we’d accumulate a bunch of shooters with radars at a zero board - but the physical spacing and beam divergences really limit that opportunity as well.
From the Xero manual I get the impression the Xero auto configuration step of frequency selection is done via firmware. I don't see any advantage to implementing this feature in hardware.
The Rangecraft may not select a frequency at setup and stick with it or it may not be as good at detecting new interference and moving away from it.
Maybe a few more, I haven't checked the list for duplicates.
Garmin International Inc FCC Filings
fcc.report
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Good to know, I've seen it as low as $499 just haven't run across anything lower yet.
Just searched again at gun.deals, haven't checked in a couple three weeks. At least one place listing it for $474.95
Deals
6 found1 day ago
Garmin Xero C1 Pro Chronograph w/ Tri-Pod Mount & USB A/C - $474.95 (Add to cart for best price)
$474.95
100
- UPC: 753759330736
- MPN: 0100261810
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