Would you mind posting a photo of your groups with the different jumps, could be helpful?
- Thread starter NovaHunter
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Would you mind posting a photo of your groups with the different jumps, could be helpful?
Some jump testing with the 142 SMK (just trying to learn something new, and using up old bullets that have been sitting on the shelf for years):
Not bad, and if i had more time I’m sure I could have optimized seating depth to get a 0.2” group, probably with a smaller jump, like i have seen before.
But I was aiming for a very long jump, so tried 120 thou (0.120”) next:
No good. A 0.9” group is terrible for this rifle, which routinely gets 0.35-0.4” with factory Berger ammo, and 0.25” or better with optimized hand loads. So let’s go deeper:
Very happy with that 0.15” group! Unfortunately i ran out of range time and had to abandon the seating experiment for a while. Will try to verify via a set of 5 shot groups later on. I would hope the window is at least 20-30 thou wide. We shall see.
My conclusion is that some (perhaps many?) bullets can shoot well at very long jump.
Maybe we are all trained to look for best groups at tiny jumps, or even a jam.... Try the long jump game (step in 20-25 thou increments) and see what you get. Like me, you might also be pleasantly surprised!
Well, probably a bad idea. I have no intention of trying it on a game animal. It is a pointed bullet, so there is not an open tip for “liquids” to get into the void, and expand the bullet to ensure the energy transfer needed for an ethical hunt.
BTW: If you have a Giraud trimmer, you can probably open up the tip (and undo all the BC benefits of a tipped bullet). Some people will drill the tip of normal BTHP match projectiles to ensure they are open, but i have not tried that.
But there are better options like the Berger 153 EOL bullet. Have tried that one on hogs, and it is devastatingly effective, but there is a LOT of meat damage!
The 143 ELD-X is another viable alternative. Hornady claims it will expand over a fairly wide velocity range. Very good BC too.
Not a match bullet i know, but: At normal hunting distances, I get best meat in the freezer results with the lighter Barnes bullets loaded with a powder like Superformance that helps to generate enough speed, ideally over 2800 fps. They need enough speed to expand properly, so going heavy is not ideal. Loaded at 2800 fps, i would use them only at 0 to 250 yard ranges, not beyond, but when driven at sufficient speed they are absolutely superb in bringing down game. Loaded at 3200 fps in a 300 Winmag, it will work out to 350 or even a little beyond. Got my last aoudad with a Barnes TTSX, shot through the heart and both lungs, at 60 yards, and it ran maybe 20 yards. No tracking required. Also a very accurate bullet. We could get 0.25” three shot groups with it from my Howa 30-06. Dropped a large boar (Texas feral hog) in its tracks a few weeks ago. Hydrostatic shock does the job.
Barnes now has a higher BC version (LRX series) for long(er) range hunting. Maybe 400 yards if a light bullet is selected and driven really fast from a large magnum caliber like a 300 Winmag. But 300 yards is more realistic, as the animal can move between you pulling the trigger and before the bullet actually arrives. Not sure if the match director will appreciate you shooting “solids” at his expensive steel targets.... and not good enough BC for PRS matches.
BTW: If you have a Giraud trimmer, you can probably open up the tip (and undo all the BC benefits of a tipped bullet). Some people will drill the tip of normal BTHP match projectiles to ensure they are open, but i have not tried that.
But there are better options like the Berger 153 EOL bullet. Have tried that one on hogs, and it is devastatingly effective, but there is a LOT of meat damage!
The 143 ELD-X is another viable alternative. Hornady claims it will expand over a fairly wide velocity range. Very good BC too.
Not a match bullet i know, but: At normal hunting distances, I get best meat in the freezer results with the lighter Barnes bullets loaded with a powder like Superformance that helps to generate enough speed, ideally over 2800 fps. They need enough speed to expand properly, so going heavy is not ideal. Loaded at 2800 fps, i would use them only at 0 to 250 yard ranges, not beyond, but when driven at sufficient speed they are absolutely superb in bringing down game. Loaded at 3200 fps in a 300 Winmag, it will work out to 350 or even a little beyond. Got my last aoudad with a Barnes TTSX, shot through the heart and both lungs, at 60 yards, and it ran maybe 20 yards. No tracking required. Also a very accurate bullet. We could get 0.25” three shot groups with it from my Howa 30-06. Dropped a large boar (Texas feral hog) in its tracks a few weeks ago. Hydrostatic shock does the job.
Barnes now has a higher BC version (LRX series) for long(er) range hunting. Maybe 400 yards if a light bullet is selected and driven really fast from a large magnum caliber like a 300 Winmag. But 300 yards is more realistic, as the animal can move between you pulling the trigger and before the bullet actually arrives. Not sure if the match director will appreciate you shooting “solids” at his expensive steel targets.... and not good enough BC for PRS matches.
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I called berger. The techs were very helpful on why you shouldnt use target bullets for hunting because they wont expand enough.
So pretty much exactly what the guy you quoted said.
Yes Im currently using hornady 143 eldx. Im not impressed with the quality control of the hornady tho. The weights are all over the place along with the ogive.
Thats not really quality control issue , thats just normal for hornady bullets.
Thats why they cost half as much as bergers.
I'm surprised so many people run the eldms. Berger's are like 10 cents more per bullet from what I'm seeing
Have used a very accurate PRS rifle (MPA) from a Texas blind to hunt hogs coming into a deer feeder.... got the big sow, using the 156 EOL Berger, which is a very heavy bullet for a 6.5 Creedmoor. That bullet is designed to blow up inside the animal. Launched at around 2680 fps. Very high BC bullet intended for ELR hunting.
But the MPA target gun turned out to be very impractical, and i will not use it again for hunting. Rifle has a 26” straight taper heavy contour barrel and a 4-port MPA brake that adds probably another 3”. Very front heavy. Also 20 lbs total weight with the big Nightforce ATACR scope. Too easy to bump it against the roof of the hide and scare off the animals. And you are rarely stable enough in the typical hunting situations to exploit the 0.3” accuracy of a target rifle shooting a high BC bullet and do head shots, aiming behind the ear of the animal. And i scratched the aluminum stock in multiple places!
The next opportunity i took a lightweight 30-06 with an adjustable AR type stock, so easy to shorten it when setting up. It is a cheap Howa 1500 ($450) that is surprisingly accurate, upgraded to the Blackhawk recoil reduction stock and that makes a lightweight 30-06 very pleasant to shoot. Can do 40 rounds during practice without having a blue shoulder the next day. I would recommend it. Plastic fore end is also quieter compared to an aluminum chassis.
Several hogs came out, and i could quickly move the rifle from one window to another without making a noise. Took the shot at the chest of the mature boar as he won’t stand still. He dropped and i could quickly reposition, cycle the bolt and take another shot at a piglet that ran and stopped, at only 20 yards.
IMHO bullet selection is more important than group size when hunting: Shot the big boar through the front shoulder bone and hit the top of the heart where the arteries join the heart, and the bullet passed through both lungs as well. Used a Barnes 180 TTSX at 2700 fps plus. A target bullet would likely have blown up on that heavy leg bone. The Barnes has devastating performance at short range, and penetrates well if you hit heavy bone, far better than any target bullet with a thin jacket.
“Horses for courses” argument!
But the MPA target gun turned out to be very impractical, and i will not use it again for hunting. Rifle has a 26” straight taper heavy contour barrel and a 4-port MPA brake that adds probably another 3”. Very front heavy. Also 20 lbs total weight with the big Nightforce ATACR scope. Too easy to bump it against the roof of the hide and scare off the animals. And you are rarely stable enough in the typical hunting situations to exploit the 0.3” accuracy of a target rifle shooting a high BC bullet and do head shots, aiming behind the ear of the animal. And i scratched the aluminum stock in multiple places!
The next opportunity i took a lightweight 30-06 with an adjustable AR type stock, so easy to shorten it when setting up. It is a cheap Howa 1500 ($450) that is surprisingly accurate, upgraded to the Blackhawk recoil reduction stock and that makes a lightweight 30-06 very pleasant to shoot. Can do 40 rounds during practice without having a blue shoulder the next day. I would recommend it. Plastic fore end is also quieter compared to an aluminum chassis.
Several hogs came out, and i could quickly move the rifle from one window to another without making a noise. Took the shot at the chest of the mature boar as he won’t stand still. He dropped and i could quickly reposition, cycle the bolt and take another shot at a piglet that ran and stopped, at only 20 yards.
IMHO bullet selection is more important than group size when hunting: Shot the big boar through the front shoulder bone and hit the top of the heart where the arteries join the heart, and the bullet passed through both lungs as well. Used a Barnes 180 TTSX at 2700 fps plus. A target bullet would likely have blown up on that heavy leg bone. The Barnes has devastating performance at short range, and penetrates well if you hit heavy bone, far better than any target bullet with a thin jacket.
“Horses for courses” argument!
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Great explanation. I think I'm leaning towards the 140 just for more fps.
Agreed. From a hunting perspective, for distances out to 350 plus yards, the 6.5 Creed is most suitable for 120-143 gn projectiles. Yes a 26” rifle can shoot the 156 gn Berger, and with that exceptionally good 0.35 G7 BC it maintains adequate speed out to about 400 yards. Half a second of flight time...
But a short magnum like the 6.5 PRC would be more suitable for such a heavy bullet, as adequate impact speed (2,200 fps) is maintained out to about 550 yards, if hand loaded with the correct powder. [Just running the ballistic calculator, not recommending you shoot at edible critters that far away!]
That said, in dark woods where hunting distance is typically 10-50 yards, the round nose Hornady 160 gn actually works really well from a 6.5 Creedmoor and impact speed is then more than adequate.
Also many folks have reported good hunting results out to scary distances with the monolithic (copper) Matrix 160 gn high BC bullet.... have not tried it yet.
But a short magnum like the 6.5 PRC would be more suitable for such a heavy bullet, as adequate impact speed (2,200 fps) is maintained out to about 550 yards, if hand loaded with the correct powder. [Just running the ballistic calculator, not recommending you shoot at edible critters that far away!]
That said, in dark woods where hunting distance is typically 10-50 yards, the round nose Hornady 160 gn actually works really well from a 6.5 Creedmoor and impact speed is then more than adequate.
Also many folks have reported good hunting results out to scary distances with the monolithic (copper) Matrix 160 gn high BC bullet.... have not tried it yet.
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Btw: According to Barnes, the minimum expansion velocity of the older Barnes Tipped TSX is claimed to be 2,000 fps. I feel more comfortable with 2,200 fps as the lower limit (with some safety margin).
The new and improved LRX long range hunting bullet is claimed to expand down to 1,600 fps. [Would suggest a more conservative 2,000 fps as the minimum limit.]
The new and improved LRX long range hunting bullet is claimed to expand down to 1,600 fps. [Would suggest a more conservative 2,000 fps as the minimum limit.]
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Great picture. the powder charge is a little higher for the berger 140s than the hornady 143 eldx I was using which is susprising. berger 42.3 100% fill vs hornady 143 41.8
The bearing surface must be relatively short. Sometimes these want a seating dept close-to or into the lands. Don’t know if you can get there
All of the hybrids I’ve seen or heard of are quite jump insensitive.
Top pic - Is that the exit hole on the pig? If so I’d take that...
Yep that is the exit wound, it is about 2.5” wide.
That 156 Berger EOL bullet is very effective, if you don’t mind significant meat loss...
In latest glossy broachure from Hornady:
Seems that the Atips are getting used in PRS now.
Would be curious to know if folks weight sort them (or if they sort based on any other measurement like base to ogive)? I had one good batch and one not so good batch.
Seems that the Atips are getting used in PRS now.
Would be curious to know if folks weight sort them (or if they sort based on any other measurement like base to ogive)? I had one good batch and one not so good batch.
Weight sorting bullets is generally a waste of time, and probably even more with bullets as consistent as the A-tips.
Hey everyone. Brand new to snipers hide. Was reading posts concerning 6.5 creedmoor and Berger’s 144 grain vld. Did my first seating depth test today and found most promise with a .1300 jump in my rpr. Also jam less .010. 41 grains H4350, cci br2. planning on ocw test next using those two different cartridge Lengths. I will post results then.
It's not a VLD.
sorry. Hybrid. Thank you for the correction
Good choice, i was shooting the 144 Berger this past weekend, and most bullet holes were touching at 100. It is such a joy to have a load like that. Load development took very little time, used the barrel tuner instead of seating depth. Bullet seems to be easy to optimize.
It is a very long bullet, so my current load with a small (15 thou) jump is way too long for the magazine. Will tune a load soon that feeds from the mag, and that will require a significant amount of jump. Should not be a problem.
Performed powder charge test using Berger 144 grain hybrid. Node at 40.9 grains of h4350 going around2665 FPS. Another flat spot at 41.9 grains going 2750 FPS. Performing another seating depth test with both charge weights starting at jam less .010. 10 three shot groups decreasing cartridge length by .003 looking for an accuracy node. Will post results tomorrow.
Any pics?
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Same here. If you can’t repeat a node with 3-shot groups on multiple days of testing, then it’s not really a node. In fact, as I test more and more (repeating tests multiple times to confirm results) I’m starting to not believe the concept of a velocity node at all…
Controversial topic, as you can imagine.
Have seen bullet/powder combos where i had to back off close to a 100 fps to find a flat spot. If you test over fairly narrow speed ranges, you might see none (that repeat on multiple days)…. The random flat spot that is 0.4 gn wide on today’s graph does not qualify.
Got the impression Litz does not believe nodes/flat spots are real, or at least he believes they are not worth exploiting.
Litz teaches to find safe max, (front side of pressure) back off 1.5 to 2 grains and shoot across that, the load is there. I do this as well as run Quick Load. I measure bolt face (closed bolt) to muzzle to get exact internal barrel length and use the barrel time calculator to get barrel times. I find the barrel time in QL that is in the 1.5 to 2 grains back from max. Been doing this for a while now, works every time.
Look at the target. It don’t lie.
Agreed - results on target is the definitive test.
The famous Australian Youtuber who shoots at 3000 to 5000 yard steel targets (4AW) also avoids looking for flat spots, but he now uses a Labradar.
The confusion amongst new shooters occurs because it is unfortunately possible to get nice groups at 100 with a load that perform atrociously at distance, because of either bad ES or the opposite of positive compensation (scatter).
As long as the target is at a range similar to what you want to shoot at, optimizing powder charge and seating dept (in whatever order you prefer) still works. A load with an ES of 48 is never going to print tight groups at 400 or 600 or 1500 yards. That is too much to be overwhelmed by positive compensation. A load that benefits from some degree of positive compensation with adequate ES can look pretty good at medium distance, even if ES is 25-30 fps. [A new shooter does not even need to understand what positive compensation is to get this benefit.]
At competitive ELR distances (2,500 to 3,700 yards), a tight ES is going to be important, but how many of us get to do that..
And then you don’t need a crony at all. Very few BR folks who end up on a podium after shooting groups in the 0.1” to 0.2” range ever bother to check speed, or explicitly search for a flat spot in the speed vs powder charge graph. They find it indirectly by looking at bullet holes in paper. And they shoot multiple 5 and 10 shot groups, not just one three shot group.
Used to develop loads for 600 yards this way 10 years ago before i had all this overpriced equipment, and it worked remarkably well. Those loads also shot 0.3-0.5” groups at a 100. But not all loads that yield tiny groups at a 100 will work at longer ranges.
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Targets lie constantly. They have little clusters of shots that are due to random chance, but the statistically naive think they are data.
lies, damned lies , and statistics
Wow, what a great argument, really addressing what I said and not just some regurgitated cliche. Nice job.
