F T/R Competition New F-Class Division #2

[SteveB]

Hi Guys.

I started this new thread because the other was getting too long. I am very concerned about this and proposed a new suggestion to the DCRA (Canada's NRA) which governs F-Class matches here last month.

My concern is the type and quality of equipment we all use and the time to put a rifle together. Right now a barrel takes about one year to get and bullets are about the same. How do we attract new interested shooters if it is going to take a years plus planning just to get equipment and supplies? I see good potential people come to matches, become interested and then turn off when they find out the reality of getting involved because there are very few suitable factory rifles. Even those take a long time to get. Try to order a Savage F-Class rifle!!

Secondly, we have an issue with the length of the ranges we have easy access to here. Most of British Columbia's ranges are under 600 meters (660 yards). If a guy shows up with a varmint type rifle and lower powered scope he is shooting against some radical F-Open rifles chambered in whiz bang cartridges or 308's using heavy bullets requiring long throats.

My suggestion was to define a mid-range cartridge limit of say 6.5 x 47 Lapua for open and 223 for F-TR. Anything under would be scored as normal with no changes while anything over would not be scored at all. Somebody could bring any rifle out but only those within the limitations could turn in a score for prizes. I feel natural forces would soon drive out the bigger calibers in the shorter ranges and make those fun again. No limitations for shooters to shoot but no score allowed for long range cartridges. For long range events there would be no limitations.

My thought for the 223's would be limit the barrel twist to 1 in 9. This would limit the bullets to about 75 grains and no amount of money spent on custom barrels could over come the disadvantages of the lighter bullets in the wind. Also limit the scope power to 24 power because this is the most common upper power of the high powered scopes.

Between the twist and scope limitations there are many choices of factory rifles available. I have seen some pretty accurate factory .223's shooting up to 75 grain bullets.

Anyway, this is what I have been thinking to increase the amount of new shooters without creating "new divisions" and running within the classes we have while bringing back the fun of shooting on the short ranges.

Right now we have matches where some people won't go simply because it isn't worth their time because it is too short!

Steve

 

[TunTav0321]

"My concern is the type and quality of equipment we all use and the time to put a rifle together. Right now a barrel takes about one year to get and bullets are about the same. How do we attract new interested shooters if it is going to take a years plus planning just to get equipment and supplies? I see good potential people come to matches, become interested and then turn off when they find out the reality of getting involved because there are very few suitable factory rifles. Even those take a long time to get. Try to order a Savage F-Class rifle!!"

Steve B, I am not going to reopen that whole bag of worms that is going on that other thread, that has turned just plan silly. I would like to say something about the quote of yours above.

You are just mistaken or maybe uninformed about the time it takes to put a rifle together. Barrels ---Kreigers, Bartlien, Brux and others I can have in my hands if I order today in three days. Not a year but in three days!! There are several places stocking barrels in lengths up to 33" uncut and just about any contour you would want. Even actions can be had in hand very quickly if you are willing to look. Stocks are the real buggie man in this thing and you are at there mercy. Components we all know can be difficult to find, but they are out there if once again you are willing to do the work to find the stuff. I wanted to build a new gun for this years coming season and I will use that as an example.

Action is a Farley Firefly bought on Benchrest Central had it in 1 day as I insisted it be shipped next day air. Barrel is a Bartlien 1.125 straight at 32" uncut in 7mm, had this in three days from date of order. Stock is a Shehane MBR Tracker, this took the longest but I had it in hand in 22 days. Trigger is a Jewell 1 1/2 oz that my smith had on hand. My smith built the rifle and I had it and was shooting it for load work-up in 44 days from the date of the first component order. It does not take a lot of time if you are willing to do the planning and ordering yourself.

Roland

 

[SteveB]

Hi Roland. You may be right about components in the US and knowing where to buy stuff but I live in Canada and the US State department has put severe export restrictions on items coming from the US. Most US companies cannot/will not export out of the US due to the cost of compliance. Right now Krieger/Brux are quoting 1 -1 1/2 years for delivery. Not many Canadian distributors stock components. If we can find a distributor who will ship on a Canadian credit card it must go to a US address and then the permits applied for as a citizen rather than a company. Even the US state department has punished companies that do this. We can get most US made components but only after extensive paperwork and permitting has been done. It just takes a lot of time. I stand by my statements for my country.

 

[TunTav0321]

Hi Roland. You may be right about components in the US and knowing where to buy stuff but I live in Canada and the US State department has put severe export restrictions on items coming from the US. Most US companies cannot/will not export out of the US due to the cost of compliance. Right now Krieger/Brux are quoting 1 -1 1/2 years for delivery. Not many Canadian distributors stock components. If we can find a distributor who will ship on a Canadian credit card it must go to a US address and then the permits applied for as a citizen rather than a company. Even the US state department has punished companies that do this. We can get most US made components but only after extensive paperwork and permitting has been done. It just takes a lot of time. I stand by my statements for my country.

Steve In the first place I didn't know you were in Canada, now with that information I am sure you are correct. It is just plain hard for many Americans to think of Canada as a foreign country and with different rules, even though I know that is true.

Roland

 

[SteveB]

Hi Roland. With the demand in the US for stuff the delays will eventually hit you to. Our distributor/importers are reporting Berger has over a years wait for deliveries. Krieger is the same. I shot in Phoenix at the SWN in February and the main topic of conversations with everybody was the shortage of powders and bullets. According to a major store there the powder manufacturers won't even take orders for specific powders only total quantities. Can't order 1000# of Varget only 10,000 pounds of various powder types and you get shipped what they feel they can ship. If the store level where you are getting your stuff runs out and haven't been able to replace it then you are in the same boat as we are. The only difference you have is a lot more choices of where to buy than we do.

Steve

 

[Flat Tire]

Hi Guys.

I started this new thread because the other was getting too long. I am very concerned about this and proposed a new suggestion to the DCRA (Canada's NRA) which governs F-Class matches here last month.




Steve

So what is the definition of a tactical rifle that makes a new class that would make more people come out and shoot more ?
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The way to get more people to come out would be to have a hunting rifle class.

 

[SteveB]

"So what is the definition of a tactical rifle that makes a new class that would make more people come out and shoot more ?"

I was not talking about making a new class at all. The classes are fine as is. You can already bring a tactical rifle to an F-Class match and shoot it as long as it doesn't have a can or brake.

My only idea was limiting the cartridges used for mid-range matches so that these matches regain the challenge of a long range match because the lesser cartridges drift more in the wind. Secondly, if limits are put on then make the limits so that a commonly off the shelf varmint rifle is competitive. IE: 223 with a 1 in 9 twist and bullet weight under 75 or 77 grains for F-TR and scopes under 24 power. This gives the stores something to sell and the newbie a way to get involved quickly.

We have tried a hunting rifle class and nobody shows up.

Steve

 

[alpine44]

So what is the definition of a tactical rifle that makes a new class that would make more people come out and shoot more ?
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The way to get more people to come out would be to have a hunting rifle class.

ABSOLUTELY a class with a weight limit of about 8 lbs but everything else (caliber, scope, etc.) open. If "Hunting Rifle" sounds too old fashioned call it HMT for High Mobility Tactical.

There needs to be an alternative to Belly Benchresting expensive toys that are useless for anything practical.

 

[alpine44]

SteveB,

I was posting while you replied to the suggestion of the "Hunting Rifle" class.

My reasoning is this: If you limit the weight to what a normal guy would want to carry for days, all the advantages that a zippier cartridge, larger scope, heavier barrel, etc. present will become a trade-off situation - like in real life. You can have some but not all.

 

[7.62willdo]

My i suggest bi-pods only in "hunting class" no 1000.00 front rest

 

[RStewart]

ABSOLUTELY a class with a weight limit of about 8 lbs but everything else (caliber, scope, etc.) open. If "Hunting Rifle" sounds too old fashioned call it HMT for High Mobility Tactical.

There needs to be an alternative to Belly Benchresting expensive toys that are useless for anything practical.

http://compete.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/RuleBooks/HPSR/hpsr-book.pdf

There is already a sporting class recognized by the NRA (at least I haven't seen anything where it was done away with).
3.4 Sporting Rifle—A center fire rifle of any caliber, not equipped with palm rest or Schuetzen type buttplate, weighing not over 9.5 pounds including detachable magazine and sights but excluding sling.
6.4 Distances—Matches are commonly fired at ranges of 100 and
200 yards.

Course No.
Position Shots Fire Distance Target
7.1 Prone 8 slow 100 yds. SR-1
7.2 Standing 8 slow 100 yds. SR-1
7.3 Sitting or 8 rapid 100 yds. SR-1
Kneeling
7.4 Prone 8 rapid 100 yds. SR-1
7.5 Prone 8 slow 200 yds. SR-3
7.6 Standing 8 slow 200 yds. SR-3

It's held to less rounds than the 20 we shoot because the thinner barrel heats up quickly.

 

[SWRichmond]

SteveB,

I was posting while you replied to the suggestion of the "Hunting Rifle" class.

My reasoning is this: If you limit the weight to what a normal guy would want to carry for days, all the advantages that a zippier cartridge, larger scope, heavier barrel, etc. present will become a trade-off situation - like in real life. You can have some but not all.

Perhaps. But then, any rifle that anyone would want to carry for days would only be fired a few times (i.e. hunting), and not in strings of 20 in 30 minutes, several strings per day; or, if repetitive (i.e. combat) use of a light longrange rifle, it would have a brake. As these factors influence caliber choice and other choices, you are in fact creating a new and also impractical rifle class, destined to become yet another equipment race, unless what you really you want is to shoot your brake in a sanctioned match, which the NRA will not allow (thank goodness).

 

[leadbullet]

all these rules and regulation take the fun right out of shooting.

 

[Flat Tire]

all these rules and regulation take the fun right out of shooting.

Not if you win !!!!!

 

[Flat Tire]

Perhaps. But then, any rifle that anyone would want to carry for days would only be fired a few times (i.e. hunting), and not in strings of 20 in 30 minutes, several strings per day; or, if repetitive (i.e. combat) use of a light longrange rifle, it would have a brake. As these factors influence caliber choice and other choices, you are in fact creating a new and also impractical rifle class, destined to become yet another equipment race, unless what you really you want is to shoot your brake in a sanctioned match, which the NRA will not allow (thank goodness).

That doesn't matter, EVERY CLASS BECOMES AN EQUIPMENT RACE, you will never be able to avoid that.