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Hunting & Fishing New Hunting Bullets Available

Getting ready for sheep hunt: 6.5mm 122 cayugas at 605 yards pictured next to the quarter.
6.5 saum 3360fps.

Threw a half ass load together for the .30 210 Cayugas. 300wsm 2950 fps 100 yards just under 1/2moa. I think with a little load development it might shrink a bit but that is pretty acceptable for me out of a hunting barrel.

Pretty impressed so far, will see how they do on game. Hopefully get a sheep next week and a moose and grizzly next month with the 210s.
 

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Just started to fine tune my load. It was already under half like yours with the 170 Cayuga but I can’t leave well enough alone. I think it’s going to be in one hole based on my last outing. Mine are about .005” off the lands.
 
H4831.... I can probably get another 100-150gps with rl26 but it’s pretty hard to find up here.

4831sc worked well too but I like the way standard cut fills the case better.
 
Getting ready for sheep hunt: 6.5mm 122 cayugas at 605 yards pictured next to the quarter.
6.5 saum 3360fps.

Threw a half ass load together for the .30 210 Cayugas. 300wsm 2950 fps 100 yards just under 1/2moa. I think with a little load development it might shrink a bit but that is pretty acceptable for me out of a hunting barrel.

Pretty impressed so far, will see how they do on game. Hopefully get a sheep next week and a moose and grizzly next month with the 210s.

@SPAK,

What G7 BC are you using at those velocities? I have to switch to lead free for a Goat Cull and bought some of these to load up. Trying to cut down on the BC learning curve with the published BC recorded at 2740 fps. I imagine you are using a significantly higher number than the .280 G7 with your velocity.
 
Here’s what I found in the dirt

Those are pretty short compared to how they started out. At 100yd into dirt with a 28N going 3100fps that looks pretty good. Looks like most of the nose is missing.

Bending suggests that they tumbled some in the dirt they hit.

Why would bent bullets, recovered from essentially point blank into a dirt berm be a cause for concern?
 
Those are pretty short compared to how they started out. At 100yd into dirt with a 28N going 3100fps that looks pretty good. Looks like most of the nose is missing.

Bending suggests that they tumbled some in the dirt they hit.

Why would bent bullets, recovered from essentially point blank into a dirt berm be a cause for concern?

I thought about it after and realized they’re made to tumble and makes sense they look like that. I also found a couple straighter with more nose expansion. I ordered 100 more. I’m going to see how they work. I have them shooting .36” at 100. Plan on shooting them to 1,100 when I get the bullets in.
 
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I thought about it after and realized they’re made to tumble and makes sense they look like that. I also found a couple straighter with more nose expansion. I ordered 100 more. I’m going to see how they work. I have them shooting .36” at 100. Plan on shooting them to 1,100 when I get the bullets in.

Yes, mostly correct but there is more to it as well.

They're made to open up and at very short range, they shed petals off the nose. It's a structural limitation of hitting something at 3000fps+, the thinner part of the bullet up front breaks loose. The front of the bullet is thinner than a jacket for about 1/3 of that front HP. It's a benefit of machining bullet geometry instead of forming it from a cup. This means that expansion starts at lower velocities than we would see with a jacketed bullet or formed mono.

This allows the smaller pieces up front to create secondary wound channels in soft tissue. Ballistic frag that cuts and makes blood channels.
The chunk at the back stays together and tumbles as a natural response of the equations that dictate stability of spin-stabilized projectiles.

The effect at short range is that the bullet's construction gives good penetration, secondary and tertiatary wound channels and deep penetration is retained.

At long range (low impact velocities) the petals mushroom out more and are less likely to shed out. This gives you a larger wound channel initially while the bullet is destabilizing on entry and beginning to tumble.

As I've tried to explain to folks, there is no single hunting bullet design that does EVERYTHING from varmints to elephants, nor compensates for poor shots.

These give controlled expansion that happens across a pretty broad range, they stay together while tumbling and maintain the mass that allows for tumbled penetration and a large wound channel at point blank all the way out to long shots for western hunting.
 
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Yes, mostly correct but there is more to it as well.

They're made to open up and at very short range, they shed petals off the nose. It's a structural limitation of hitting something at 3000fps+, the thinner part of the bullet up front breaks loose. The front of the bullet is thinner than a jacket for about 1/3 of that front HP. It's a benefit of machining bullet geometry instead of forming it from a cup. This means that expansion starts at lower velocities than we would see with a jacketed bullet or formed mono.

This allows the smaller pieces up front to create secondary wound channels in soft tissue. Ballistic frag that cuts and makes blood channels.
The chunk at the back stays together and tumbles as a natural response of the equations that dictate stability of spin-stabilized projectiles.

The effect at short range is that the bullet's construction gives good penetration, secondary and tertiatary wound channels and deep penetration is retained.

At long range (low impact velocities) the petals mushroom out more and are less likely to shed out. This gives you a larger wound channel initially while the bullet is destabilizing on entry and beginning to tumble.

As I've tried to explain to folks, there is no single hunting bullet design that does EVERYTHING from varmints to elephants, nor compensates for poor shots.

These give controlled expansion that happens across a pretty broad range, they stay together while tumbling and maintain the mass that allows for tumbled penetration and a large wound channel at point blank all the way out to long shots for western hunting.

what’s the lowest velocity recommendation on these?
 
what’s the lowest velocity recommendation on these?
Currently about 1600fps, simply because I haven't been able to test them on tissue slower than that. If we can advance that lower I'll do it once I can get reliable data on it.

In wet newspaper it tumbles and bashes the hell out of stuff even down at 1250fps
 
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@SPAK,

What G7 BC are you using at those velocities? I have to switch to lead free for a Goat Cull and bought some of these to load up. Trying to cut down on the BC learning curve with the published BC recorded at 2740 fps. I imagine you are using a significantly higher number than the .280 G7 with your velocity.


I’ve just plugged in the advertised bc and went with it on the 122s and so far it’s been spot on out to 700 yards. I haven’t confirmed any further than that... I also don’t take any shots on game past 700 yards either and my practical shot limitation in the mountains is usually 600 yards depending on conditions.
 
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Well, we hiked 40+ miles through sheep country and couldn’t find any legal rams. It was one of the toughest, rainiest hunts I’ve been on. My boot soles and rand are Literally shredded lol.

Going to load up some 210 cayugas and see what happens on the moose and bear hunt in a few weeks.

On a side note I messed with some 241gr Seneca’s just to see what they would do. Pretty impressed, especially with a g7 of .550.

I’m pretty sure I could push it Another 100-150 fps faster with rl26, just can’t find any up here in Alaska...

Either way, all of the Pva bullets that I’ve tried so far have been really impressive from an accuracy standpoint. Pretty eager to see how they do terminally in a few weeks on the hunt. I’ve had mixed results with jacketed Bullets up here so it’ll be an interesting comparison.
 

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Well, we hiked 40+ miles through sheep country and couldn’t find any legal rams. It was one of the toughest, rainiest hunts I’ve been on. My boot soles and rand are Literally shredded lol.

Going to load up some 210 cayugas and see what happens on the moose and bear hunt in a few weeks.

On a side note I messed with some 241gr Seneca’s just to see what they would do. Pretty impressed, especially with a g7 of .550.

I’m pretty sure I could push it Another 100-150 fps faster with rl26, just can’t find any up here in Alaska...

Either way, all of the Pva bullets that I’ve tried so far have been really impressive from an accuracy standpoint. Pretty eager to see how they do terminally in a few weeks on the hunt. I’ve had mixed results with jacketed Bullets up here so it’ll be an interesting comparison.
What caliber for the 241?
 
The 198s are pretty impressive for sure...

Honestly every bullet so far that I’ve tried from them has shot really really well.

I really want to see how they do on big game up here... I’ve had on a few occasions had jacket separations from Bergers and Amax bullets.
 
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The 198s are pretty impressive for sure...

Honestly every bullet so far that I’ve tried from them has shot really really well.

I really want to see how they do on big game up here... I’ve had on a few occasions had jacket separations from Bergers and Amax bullets.
Definitely update us when you make some kills! I'm really interested in these bullets but I'm pretty hesitant due to the tumbling thing..
I just walked away from Berger and Hornady bullets as well after seeing some really bad shit happen.
Good luck on your hunts!
 
Definitely update us when you make some kills! I'm really interested in these bullets but I'm pretty hesitant due to the tumbling thing..
I just walked away from Berger and Hornady bullets as well after seeing some really bad shit happen.
Good luck on your hunts!

The tumbling doesn’t bother me. If I understand correctly all bullets tumble. It’s the ones that separate And come apart that I worry about.. especially When bone is involved.

I’d rather have something that holds together and tumbles all the way through the body cavity vs not tumble and go right through.

Hopefully will connect with a few critters, need to fill the freezer before winter....I’ll definitely keep you guys posted.
 
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Definitely update us when you make some kills! I'm really interested in these bullets but I'm pretty hesitant due to the tumbling thing..
I just walked away from Berger and Hornady bullets as well after seeing some really bad shit happen.
Good luck on your hunts!

exactly what turned me on to these bullets. I’ll be using them this season.
 
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The tumbling doesn’t bother me. If I understand correctly all bullets tumble. It’s the ones that separate And come apart that I worry about.. especially When bone is involved.

I’d rather have something that holds together and tumbles all the way through the body cavity vs not tumble and go right through.

Hopefully will connect with a few critters, need to fill the freezer before winter....I’ll definitely keep you guys posted.
That was my concern with them i couldn't wrap my head around the tumble thing so im waiting for someone to try them more before i jump on them. Im also leaving hornady and softer bullets. Keeps up up dated on results
 
That was my concern with them i couldn't wrap my head around the tumble thing so im waiting for someone to try them more before i jump on them. Im also leaving hornady and softer bullets. Keeps up up dated on results


What would you like explained about the tumbling ?

Why it happens?


Rifle bullets are a spin stabilized object.
There are 3 types of stabilization that we're likely all familiar with.

1) Spin stabilized, think bullets
2) Fin stabilized, think arrows and model rockets
3) Hybrid of 1 & 2 that is actively controlled. Think things like the Apollo V rocket and the space shuttle.

In movement through a fluid body, like air, the motion of the projectile is heavily affected by the density of the fluid it is moving through.
In the air we're all familiar, or can at least conceptualize the idea of something tumbling due to instability. The American football is a perfect example. When it's thrown poorly it quickly turns into a tumbling object that has an erratic trajectory.

When it's spun properly it can be highly predictable. Think of the forward pass or even a well kicked punt. The rotation of the punt stabilizes the football and guys who do it for a living can kick a pretty darn predictable trajectory.

Also, on a long bomb it's not uncommon to see a football start out as what appears to be a perfect spiral but over 50, 60, 75 yards the football starts to wobble a little, then quickly turns into an exaggerated wobble which tumbles and falls out of the air rapidly.

That is an example of something going unstable due to being knocked out of stability. The stitches on the football or just a slightly off-perfect launch during the throw can cause it. Likewise if we have a beautifully spinning top on a table and we touch it the top wobbles and can go unstable and crash quickly. Another example is the baseball. A fastball flies straight due to the spin on it, curve balls "curve" due to the spin, and knuckle balls are erratic because they have (almost) no spin on them. They move all over the place unpredictably.

Keep both of these analogies in your mind for what's coming.

We see this with rifle bullets too, especially the "long for caliber" designs that are 5, 6, 7 calibers long. They start out fine and shoot decent groups at short range, even medium range. But then when a shooter makes the jump to long range, say like a jump from 300 to 800 yards, the bullets appear to vanish and we can't see them. If a spotter watches the trace it appears to be clean for a bit, then explodes into a violent storm of trace and just as quickly disappears. The bullet was marginally stable or unstable on the slow arm of the epicyclic motion equality and over time it destabilized. The explosion of trace is the supersonic bullet yawing and pitching drastically, creating shockwaves that change the air's local refraction index and then rob a huge amount of energy from the bullet to make this happen. It slows down, gets below critical velocity and stops making those visible shock fronts.

So, this probably makes reasonable sense, but then what about hitting an animal?

Let's remind ourselves about the density of the medium. At high (density) altitudes where the air is less dense the bullets may fly just fine. I've seen 198's fly from a 10 twist during summer months in western Montana when the DA was over 6600ft. However, where I live down near sea level they need a 9.5 in the summer and in cooler months they need a 9 here. Where SPAK lives in Alaska, they might even need something faster than that during the winter time.

The more dense, the more twist rate required.

So let's think about hitting that animal now.

The animal is a much denser fluid, something like 400x or more difference in change. Animals are mostly water and they have all kinds of squishy material in them along with some very hard, dense items (bones). When we take a bullet that's flying just fine through the air and hit an animal with it there is an immediate change in the density of the material that bullet is going through. This is an abrupt discontinuity in the flight regime and it's also going to destabilize the bullet based on how it hits too, just like throwing a football and over time it becomes less stable and begins to wobble.

Well, now we have an object that went from a highly stable environment and we hit it with a massive change in medium density as well as a massive destabilizing effect of hitting something. Just like the stable top that we bump on the table.

Now that bullet is unstable and it immediately beings to yaw and pitch due to both the excitation (bump) of hitting the animal and the drastic change in what fluid it was moving through. This causes catastrophic tumbling to the flight path.

Next question, is that bad?

Well, let's back up to the comments I made about watching trace on a marginally stable bullet. As the bullet goes unstable and begins to tumble we see that huge explosion of trace. Those shock fronts that are shedding all over the place from ever edge, corner, point, etc off the bullet that is now presented sideways to the air. The same thing happens in the body of the animal being shot. Those shockfronts are still generated and they still move through the medium (the muscle tissues) and cause catastrophic damage.

Normally the limitations of the bullet have a tempering effect on it. Jacketed bullets break up as they tumble. Jackets separate from the core, cores are lead and they spew into tiny pieces and those tiny pieces become like shooting birdshot into a cinderblock. At 2 feet they are devastating. At 25 feet they do some damage, scuff up the outside but don't penetrate far. But at 25 meters they don't do much more than take the paint off the cinders.

That same effect happens when a jacketed bullet breaks up inside an animal only on a micro scale that is much shorter distance due to the much higher material density. What takes 25 meters to happen in air now happens over the span of mere centimeters.

Therefore, the optimal plan is to have a bullet that can withstand the immense structural forces of hitting flesh, staying together to continue penetration deep into the body and shedding those high energy shockwaves out into the muscles and major organs.

Solids stay together as a matter of their construction. Check.
Expand some to open the wound channel. Check.
Penetrate deep on a big animal. Check.

So we are thinking solids are a good choice, how do we get the best performance from a solid that we can?

It's about arriving with the most kinetic energy as possible. The bullet isn't going to break up but it needs to expand and it will tumble through the cavity. Physics dictates that.

So the designer needs to be able to generate a bullet with the highest possible BC for the given weight and specified barrel twist rate available in order to maximize the potential on game.

The Cayuga solids have unmatched BC's for their weight, even in the hunting bullets. Especially in hunting bullets these things are better than almost all of the match bullets for BC and they're lighter meaning they start out faster, bleed off less energy during flight and arrive on target with more energy and momentum to impart to the target animal.

I maintain that there is not a single bullet for every shot and every animal and every situation. We know that these things clobber game when the person puts them anywhere above the diaphram and into high value zones on an animal. They are still going to expand and tumble if someone liver or gut shoots the animal but like any bullet out there it's not likely to be an immediately mortal wound. For some of the questions I get from people it sounds like they want a guarantee that if they shoot the animal in the hoof the thing will fall down dead but there's no such bullet. Ultimately we do have to be capable hunters and make the shots, there are no magic bullets, but from the performance of BC, expansion, structural integrity for penetraion and tumbling off hydrostatic shock energy these are probably as close as it gets for big, heavy game.
 
What would you like explained about the tumbling ?

Why it happens?


Rifle bullets are a spin stabilized object.
There are 3 types of stabilization that we're likely all familiar with.

1) Spin stabilized, think bullets
2) Fin stabilized, think arrows and model rockets
3) Hybrid of 1 & 2 that is actively controlled. Think things like the Apollo V rocket and the space shuttle.

In movement through a fluid body, like air, the motion of the projectile is heavily affected by the density of the fluid it is moving through.
In the air we're all familiar, or can at least conceptualize the idea of something tumbling due to instability. The American football is a perfect example. When it's thrown poorly it quickly turns into a tumbling object that has an erratic trajectory.

When it's spun properly it can be highly predictable. Think of the forward pass or even a well kicked punt. The rotation of the punt stabilizes the football and guys who do it for a living can kick a pretty darn predictable trajectory.

Also, on a long bomb it's not uncommon to see a football start out as what appears to be a perfect spiral but over 50, 60, 75 yards the football starts to wobble a little, then quickly turns into an exaggerated wobble which tumbles and falls out of the air rapidly.

That is an example of something going unstable due to being knocked out of stability. The stitches on the football or just a slightly off-perfect launch during the throw can cause it. Likewise if we have a beautifully spinning top on a table and we touch it the top wobbles and can go unstable and crash quickly. Another example is the baseball. A fastball flies straight due to the spin on it, curve balls "curve" due to the spin, and knuckle balls are erratic because they have (almost) no spin on them. They move all over the place unpredictably.

Keep both of these analogies in your mind for what's coming.

We see this with rifle bullets too, especially the "long for caliber" designs that are 5, 6, 7 calibers long. They start out fine and shoot decent groups at short range, even medium range. But then when a shooter makes the jump to long range, say like a jump from 300 to 800 yards, the bullets appear to vanish and we can't see them. If a spotter watches the trace it appears to be clean for a bit, then explodes into a violent storm of trace and just as quickly disappears. The bullet was marginally stable or unstable on the slow arm of the epicyclic motion equality and over time it destabilized. The explosion of trace is the supersonic bullet yawing and pitching drastically, creating shockwaves that change the air's local refraction index and then rob a huge amount of energy from the bullet to make this happen. It slows down, gets below critical velocity and stops making those visible shock fronts.

So, this probably makes reasonable sense, but then what about hitting an animal?

Let's remind ourselves about the density of the medium. At high (density) altitudes where the air is less dense the bullets may fly just fine. I've seen 198's fly from a 10 twist during summer months in western Montana when the DA was over 6600ft. However, where I live down near sea level they need a 9.5 in the summer and in cooler months they need a 9 here. Where SPAK lives in Alaska, they might even need something faster than that during the winter time.

The more dense, the more twist rate required.

So let's think about hitting that animal now.

The animal is a much denser fluid, something like 400x or more difference in change. Animals are mostly water and they have all kinds of squishy material in them along with some very hard, dense items (bones). When we take a bullet that's flying just fine through the air and hit an animal with it there is an immediate change in the density of the material that bullet is going through. This is an abrupt discontinuity in the flight regime and it's also going to destabilize the bullet based on how it hits too, just like throwing a football and over time it becomes less stable and begins to wobble.

Well, now we have an object that went from a highly stable environment and we hit it with a massive change in medium density as well as a massive destabilizing effect of hitting something. Just like the stable top that we bump on the table.

Now that bullet is unstable and it immediately beings to yaw and pitch due to both the excitation (bump) of hitting the animal and the drastic change in what fluid it was moving through. This causes catastrophic tumbling to the flight path.

Next question, is that bad?

Well, let's back up to the comments I made about watching trace on a marginally stable bullet. As the bullet goes unstable and begins to tumble we see that huge explosion of trace. Those shock fronts that are shedding all over the place from ever edge, corner, point, etc off the bullet that is now presented sideways to the air. The same thing happens in the body of the animal being shot. Those shockfronts are still generated and they still move through the medium (the muscle tissues) and cause catastrophic damage.

Normally the limitations of the bullet have a tempering effect on it. Jacketed bullets break up as they tumble. Jackets separate from the core, cores are lead and they spew into tiny pieces and those tiny pieces become like shooting birdshot into a cinderblock. At 2 feet they are devastating. At 25 feet they do some damage, scuff up the outside but don't penetrate far. But at 25 meters they don't do much more than take the paint off the cinders.

That same effect happens when a jacketed bullet breaks up inside an animal only on a micro scale that is much shorter distance due to the much higher material density. What takes 25 meters to happen in air now happens over the span of mere centimeters.

Therefore, the optimal plan is to have a bullet that can withstand the immense structural forces of hitting flesh, staying together to continue penetration deep into the body and shedding those high energy shockwaves out into the muscles and major organs.

Solids stay together as a matter of their construction. Check.
Expand some to open the wound channel. Check.
Penetrate deep on a big animal. Check.

So we are thinking solids are a good choice, how do we get the best performance from a solid that we can?

It's about arriving with the most kinetic energy as possible. The bullet isn't going to break up but it needs to expand and it will tumble through the cavity. Physics dictates that.

So the designer needs to be able to generate a bullet with the highest possible BC for the given weight and specified barrel twist rate available in order to maximize the potential on game.

The Cayuga solids have unmatched BC's for their weight, even in the hunting bullets. Especially in hunting bullets these things are better than almost all of the match bullets for BC and they're lighter meaning they start out faster, bleed off less energy during flight and arrive on target with more energy and momentum to impart to the target animal.

I maintain that there is not a single bullet for every shot and every animal and every situation. We know that these things clobber game when the person puts them anywhere above the diaphram and into high value zones on an animal. They are still going to expand and tumble if someone liver or gut shoots the animal but like any bullet out there it's not likely to be an immediately mortal wound. For some of the questions I get from people it sounds like they want a guarantee that if they shoot the animal in the hoof the thing will fall down dead but there's no such bullet. Ultimately we do have to be capable hunters and make the shots, there are no magic bullets, but from the performance of BC, expansion, structural integrity for penetraion and tumbling off hydrostatic shock energy these are probably as close as it gets for big, heavy game.
Honestly just a weird thing to hear i guess but that does clear it up very well. When i hear tumble it just throws my mind in another direction but i understand what you are meaning once it hit the animal. Yes great bc and in no way was i saying anything bad about your product im excited to use either your hunting or target bullets just waiting for more results. Thank you for taking time to explain
 
Honestly just a weird thing to hear i guess but that does clear it up very well. When i hear tumble it just throws my mind in another direction but i understand what you are meaning once it hit the animal. Yes great bc and in no way was i saying anything bad about your product im excited to use either your hunting or target bullets just waiting for more results. Thank you for taking time to explain
Sure.

Best way to get results: try them. Every rifle is different, you are very likely going to have to to tweak the load for your rifle anyway.
 
Honestly just a weird thing to hear i guess but that does clear it up very well. When i hear tumble it just throws my mind in another direction but i understand what you are meaning once it hit the animal. Yes great bc and in no way was i saying anything bad about your product im excited to use either your hunting or target bullets just waiting for more results. Thank you for taking time to explain

Initially I thought the same, but then I realized it’s really because most of us have a much more abbreviated understanding of bullet flight and terminal ballistics. (Not everyone but I’ll speak for myself at least) The average hunter and I’ll go so far to say a good portion of “long range hunters” barely have an understanding of minimum impact velocity required for expansion.

The other factor to consider that Josh brought out is jacketed Bullets tumbling vs monolithic solids tumbling are two very different things. It wasn’t until I read what he just wrote above that I can now understand what I was seeing when I Recovered amax and bergers Bullets. Which was bullet fragments and jacket separations. Sometimes they had great results and others were questionable.

I am also fully aware that sometimes you make a perfect shot and you still lose game. I’ve seen it and it’s still heartbreaking just to think about it. Sometimes the odds Just aren’t in your favor. Really hoping to put the cayugas to the test here in the next month.
 
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Sure.

Best way to get results: try them. Every rifle is different, you are very likely going to have to to tweak the load for your rifle anyway.
Of course just looking for people results more on game ect but that cleared it all up. It just sounded bad tumble but i get what it does and i would much rather have them stay together and kill.
 
Sure.

Best way to get results: try them. Every rifle is different, you are very likely going to have to to tweak the load for your rifle anyway.
I need those 170s. When you making some more?
 
What would you like explained about the tumbling ?

Why it happens?


Rifle bullets are a spin stabilized object.
There are 3 types of stabilization that we're likely all familiar with.

1) Spin stabilized, think bullets
2) Fin stabilized, think arrows and model rockets
3) Hybrid of 1 & 2 that is actively controlled. Think things like the Apollo V rocket and the space shuttle.

In movement through a fluid body, like air, the motion of the projectile is heavily affected by the density of the fluid it is moving through.
In the air we're all familiar, or can at least conceptualize the idea of something tumbling due to instability. The American football is a perfect example. When it's thrown poorly it quickly turns into a tumbling object that has an erratic trajectory.

When it's spun properly it can be highly predictable. Think of the forward pass or even a well kicked punt. The rotation of the punt stabilizes the football and guys who do it for a living can kick a pretty darn predictable trajectory.

Also, on a long bomb it's not uncommon to see a football start out as what appears to be a perfect spiral but over 50, 60, 75 yards the football starts to wobble a little, then quickly turns into an exaggerated wobble which tumbles and falls out of the air rapidly.

That is an example of something going unstable due to being knocked out of stability. The stitches on the football or just a slightly off-perfect launch during the throw can cause it. Likewise if we have a beautifully spinning top on a table and we touch it the top wobbles and can go unstable and crash quickly. Another example is the baseball. A fastball flies straight due to the spin on it, curve balls "curve" due to the spin, and knuckle balls are erratic because they have (almost) no spin on them. They move all over the place unpredictably.

Keep both of these analogies in your mind for what's coming.

We see this with rifle bullets too, especially the "long for caliber" designs that are 5, 6, 7 calibers long. They start out fine and shoot decent groups at short range, even medium range. But then when a shooter makes the jump to long range, say like a jump from 300 to 800 yards, the bullets appear to vanish and we can't see them. If a spotter watches the trace it appears to be clean for a bit, then explodes into a violent storm of trace and just as quickly disappears. The bullet was marginally stable or unstable on the slow arm of the epicyclic motion equality and over time it destabilized. The explosion of trace is the supersonic bullet yawing and pitching drastically, creating shockwaves that change the air's local refraction index and then rob a huge amount of energy from the bullet to make this happen. It slows down, gets below critical velocity and stops making those visible shock fronts.

So, this probably makes reasonable sense, but then what about hitting an animal?

Let's remind ourselves about the density of the medium. At high (density) altitudes where the air is less dense the bullets may fly just fine. I've seen 198's fly from a 10 twist during summer months in western Montana when the DA was over 6600ft. However, where I live down near sea level they need a 9.5 in the summer and in cooler months they need a 9 here. Where SPAK lives in Alaska, they might even need something faster than that during the winter time.

The more dense, the more twist rate required.

So let's think about hitting that animal now.

The animal is a much denser fluid, something like 400x or more difference in change. Animals are mostly water and they have all kinds of squishy material in them along with some very hard, dense items (bones). When we take a bullet that's flying just fine through the air and hit an animal with it there is an immediate change in the density of the material that bullet is going through. This is an abrupt discontinuity in the flight regime and it's also going to destabilize the bullet based on how it hits too, just like throwing a football and over time it becomes less stable and begins to wobble.

Well, now we have an object that went from a highly stable environment and we hit it with a massive change in medium density as well as a massive destabilizing effect of hitting something. Just like the stable top that we bump on the table.

Now that bullet is unstable and it immediately beings to yaw and pitch due to both the excitation (bump) of hitting the animal and the drastic change in what fluid it was moving through. This causes catastrophic tumbling to the flight path.

Next question, is that bad?

Well, let's back up to the comments I made about watching trace on a marginally stable bullet. As the bullet goes unstable and begins to tumble we see that huge explosion of trace. Those shock fronts that are shedding all over the place from ever edge, corner, point, etc off the bullet that is now presented sideways to the air. The same thing happens in the body of the animal being shot. Those shockfronts are still generated and they still move through the medium (the muscle tissues) and cause catastrophic damage.

Normally the limitations of the bullet have a tempering effect on it. Jacketed bullets break up as they tumble. Jackets separate from the core, cores are lead and they spew into tiny pieces and those tiny pieces become like shooting birdshot into a cinderblock. At 2 feet they are devastating. At 25 feet they do some damage, scuff up the outside but don't penetrate far. But at 25 meters they don't do much more than take the paint off the cinders.

That same effect happens when a jacketed bullet breaks up inside an animal only on a micro scale that is much shorter distance due to the much higher material density. What takes 25 meters to happen in air now happens over the span of mere centimeters.

Therefore, the optimal plan is to have a bullet that can withstand the immense structural forces of hitting flesh, staying together to continue penetration deep into the body and shedding those high energy shockwaves out into the muscles and major organs.

Solids stay together as a matter of their construction. Check.
Expand some to open the wound channel. Check.
Penetrate deep on a big animal. Check.

So we are thinking solids are a good choice, how do we get the best performance from a solid that we can?

It's about arriving with the most kinetic energy as possible. The bullet isn't going to break up but it needs to expand and it will tumble through the cavity. Physics dictates that.

So the designer needs to be able to generate a bullet with the highest possible BC for the given weight and specified barrel twist rate available in order to maximize the potential on game.

The Cayuga solids have unmatched BC's for their weight, even in the hunting bullets. Especially in hunting bullets these things are better than almost all of the match bullets for BC and they're lighter meaning they start out faster, bleed off less energy during flight and arrive on target with more energy and momentum to impart to the target animal.

I maintain that there is not a single bullet for every shot and every animal and every situation. We know that these things clobber game when the person puts them anywhere above the diaphram and into high value zones on an animal. They are still going to expand and tumble if someone liver or gut shoots the animal but like any bullet out there it's not likely to be an immediately mortal wound. For some of the questions I get from people it sounds like they want a guarantee that if they shoot the animal in the hoof the thing will fall down dead but there's no such bullet. Ultimately we do have to be capable hunters and make the shots, there are no magic bullets, but from the performance of BC, expansion, structural integrity for penetraion and tumbling off hydrostatic shock energy these are probably as close as it gets for big, heavy game.
Nice explanation
To clarify I'm not concerned about the tumbling itself, but the claim that tumbling is the main method of internal destruction.

If tumbling bullets really wreck that kind of internal damage (reliably) then wouldn't a FMJ pretty much do the same thing?

I'm really skeptical because I've had 215 Bergers fail to expand and pencil right through the vitals with very little internal damage, I'm talking tracking nightmares..

I don't know maybe mono's somehow tumble better due to length??
I've hit tiny limbs though while target shooting with lead core bullets that literally hit the paper broadside, so they definitely tumble just fine.

Like you said there's one way to find out if they're lethal.
I'm very open minded to the possibility that these bullets will kill well, I just want to hear more feedback first
 
Nice explanation
To clarify I'm not concerned about the tumbling itself, but the claim that tumbling is the main method of internal destruction.

If tumbling bullets really wreck that kind of internal damage (reliably) then wouldn't a FMJ pretty much do the same thing?

I'm really skeptical because I've had 215 Bergers fail to expand and pencil right through the vitals with very little internal damage, I'm talking tracking nightmares..

I don't know maybe mono's somehow tumble better due to length??
I've hit tiny limbs though while target shooting with lead core bullets that literally hit the paper broadside, so they definitely tumble just fine.

Like you said there's one way to find out if they're lethal.
I'm very open minded to the possibility that these bullets will kill well, I just want to hear more feedback first

The trepidation makes sense however here's something else to allay fears.
Using the example of the 215 Berger:

That bullet is about 1/4" shorter than the 210 Cayuga for essentially the same weight. Because the mono's are made from an overall less dense package (copper vs a little copper but mostly lead) then they are much longer for the same weight projectile. I also use longer, more slender noses on them because we don't have to worry about the structural limitations that cause ogive collapse, oftentimes referred to as "nose slump" from too much lead up in a long, unsupported nose. Nose slump has been a problem with big match bullets in past years when some guys put them in super mags.

Because the length of the bullet is substantially larger and the overturning moments are much higher there is a much stronger tendency to tumble. As compared to a FMJ the difference is largely due to the length of the projectile. Look at 30c 147gr FMJ's: They're about 1.2" long, have a short nose and are stable in a 12-13 twist rifle. But if you shoot them from a 10tw they are much less likely to tumble. The US Military found this with the 55gr ammo from old M16's vs new ones. When they switched from the 12tw where the bullets would erratically tumble and cause heinous damage to a 9 and 7tw for the heavier "DMR" ammunitions and the 62gr penetrators the 55gr ammo was substantially less effective.

Same thing happens with twist rate and monolithics, which is why I don't do what most bullet companies do and what shooters have learned to acknowledge. I say it needs a 7 twist and I get calls from people "the bullets are unstable... oh and I'm using a 7.5 but that shouldn't matter right?"

If it says 7, it needs a 7. If it says 9 it needs a 9. The only caveat is if you are going to use them at high DA's. Folks shooting 10tw 300WM in Wyoming during the summer are going to get away with shooting a 9 twist bullet all day long. In the winter, it's marginal or maybe not successful depending on temp. Tumbling is a devastating way to kill things. These bullets aren't directly comparable to jacketed designs for a number of reasons.

Futhermore, the first 3/8" of these bullets is pretty thin. Up at the open tip the wall thickness is about 0.007" and it gets thicker as it goes back. This gives progressive expansion at different speeds but it also means that when compared to a jacketed bullet the nose is much thinner to start initially, causing expansion to happen sooner and at lower velocities.
 
The hollow point has quite the opening too. Put the pedal down on the 170s!
 
Looks better and better to me. Thank you for really going in depth the huge advantage to your monos is the bc no other bullet can touch your bcs. I have a 1-8 twist 28 nosler barrel now i cant shoot the 170 i messed up on the twist
 
Looks better and better to me. Thank you for really going in depth the huge advantage to your monos is the bc no other bullet can touch your bcs. I have a 1-8 twist 28 nosler barrel now i cant shoot the 170 i messed up on the twist
You can probably shoot the 170s, but you can definintely shoot the 151s and they still have a lot of BC for that weight bullet. When you consider the TNF on the two the 151 provides a lot of performance that the 170 needs some solid speeds to beat it.
 
I will check the 151 out. I live in colorado hunt at 7000 to over 10000 feet be pushing it for the 170 maybe
 
As fall hunting season approaches I am looking forward to seeing more examples of performance on game. Definitely appreciate @coldboremiracle sharing the bullets damage on the vitals (rather than pretty mushroomed bullets).

On paper definitely seems like it would give additional confidence at distance both with higher BC and lower expansion velocity (especially those who are stuck with lead free in CA).

Anyone have experience exclusively shooting monolithic through a barrel? Does it require more frequent cleaning with copper solvent?
 
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As fall hunting season approaches I am looking forward to seeing more examples of performance on game. Definitely appreciate @coldboremiracle sharing the bullets damage on the vitals (rather than pretty mushroomed bullets).

On paper definitely seems like it would give additional confidence at distance both with higher BC and lower expansion velocity (especially those who are stuck with lead free in CA).

Anyone have experience exclusively shooting monolithic through a barrel? Does it require more frequent cleaning with copper solvent?
The worst copper fouling I've seen was with Hornady ELDMS.
I've been shooting Barnes LRX lately and after 60 shoots there's no copper fouling
 
the first 50 of these 170s cleaned up nicely
 
Anyone have experience exclusively shooting monolithic through a barrel? Does it require more frequent cleaning with copper solvent?

Negative, cleaning hasn't been any different for me - 198gr'ers going thru a 308 with 2780fps ish MV (big long barrel, loaded on a long action). Maybe 500 rds or so and the cleaning side has been no different than normal copper/lead swaged bullets.

There might be a bit of a 'barrel break-in' period. Maybe.
 
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Hopefully this week. I have been running g 375s cor a contract we got. 7mm are first on the list after that.

I also need to make 6s and 30s

Will checkout the 30 cals for a 300prc build i got comin up for hunting.
 
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I just built a 7mm Max Sherman 1:8 26” supressed and am almost done fire forming all 100pieces of brass. I live and hunt here in South Texas. What bullet would you recommend don’t plan on shooting over 700yds, probably kill all my deer 300yds and under, but the pigs are fair game at my feeder that’s set up at 700yds! I have a few different powders, n565, h-1000, Retumbo, RL-23, RL-26 & IMR-4955!
 
I just built a 7mm Max Sherman 1:8 26” supressed and am almost done fire forming all 100pieces of brass. I live and hunt here in South Texas. What bullet would you recommend don’t plan on shooting over 700yds, probably kill all my deer 300yds and under, but the pigs are fair game at my feeder that’s set up at 700yds! I have a few different powders, n565, h-1000, Retumbo, RL-23, RL-26 & IMR-4955!
Side note how are you liking the sherman maxx? Have you found it was worth it?
 
I’m almost done with the fire forming the 100 pieces got like 8 more to got then clean and then start working on final load. I’m unsure right now cause while fire forming 58.5gr of RL-23 gave me really hard bolt lift at 2800fps with Berger 175 elite hunters, with 1 hole groups at 100yds and cloverleaf at 200yds.
 
I’m almost done with the fire forming the 100 pieces got like 8 more to got then clean and then start working on final load. I’m unsure right now cause while fire forming 58.5gr of RL-23 gave me really hard bolt lift at 2800fps with Berger 175 elite hunters, with 1 hole groups at 100yds and cloverleaf at 200yds.
Yeah suppose to be way faster than that