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Rifle Scopes New March Scopes for 2020

DellaDog said:
Sheesh, another reticle miss for March.

I really like March, but MSR, SKMR, MPCT2 and Minox MSR4 are so close to being just right, why does March always try to beat a new path??
Click to expand...

SKMR is a Kahles reticle. MPCT2 is a ZCO reticle. MR4 is a Minox reticle. It would be somewhat impolite to shamelessly copy their reticles, wouldn't it?

MSR and MSR2 need to be licensed from FinnAccuracy which adds cost.

If noone ever tried to beat a new path, we would never have anything new. Either way, my basic assumption with reticle designs is that some will like it and some will not. If I get less than half of the people out to lynch me, I am in good shape.

Feedback is always nice though. What would you change?

ILya
 
koshkin said:
SKMR is a Kahles reticle. MPCT2 is a ZCO reticle. MR4 is a Minox reticle. It would be somewhat impolite to shamelessly copy their reticles, wouldn't it?
Click to expand...


Thanks, but I’m not suggesting any sort of infringement. I own all of the above and they were chosen for both quality and reticle design. I also own the March 5-40 and 3-24x52, chosen for quality and design features (10 yard parallax) but prefer all of the above reticles over any March - and I’ve looked through (owned) nearly every March Tactical reticle.

As you suggest, its a personal choice, and I prefer all I mentioned over any March reticle to date, and now it seems, proposed.
 
DellaDog said:
Thanks, but I’m not suggesting any sort of infringement. I own all of the above and they were chosen for both quality and reticle design. I also own the March 5-40 and 3-24x52, chosen for quality and design features (10 yard parallax) but prefer all of the above reticles over any March - and I’ve looked through (owned) nearly every March Tactical reticle.

As you suggest, its a personal choice, and I prefer all I mentioned over any March reticle to date, and now it seems, proposed.
Click to expand...

Once the scope are out, if you get a chance to see one in person, I would appreciate any feedback you can provide.

Every new design offers an opportunity to learn something and do better on the next one.

ILya
 
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I do look forward to actually looking through the FML-TR1.
At first glance it’s the center dot combined with the cross that seems odd/different.
(and overall crosshair thickness that may just be the pdf)
 
DellaDog said:
I do look forward to actually looking through the FML-TR1.
At first glance it’s the center dot combined with the cross that seems odd/different.
(and overall crosshair thickness that may just be the pdf)
Click to expand...

I have been experimenting with that arrangement and it seems to work well for high erector ratio scopes. On high power, it is not very obtrusive and everything is based on 0.2mrad. On low power, it looks like a small illuminated cross. The dot alone gets too small on low power for my taste and I do not like to bring all of the vertical and horizontal hashes too close to the center because that obscures things.

ILya
 
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I think the FML-TR1 is the best March reticle I’ve seen to date. I assume @koshkin had a hand in its design. I prefer his version of this reticle in the Meopta that he did, with the numbers on the tree alternating sides as they go down, and the shorter top cross.

My 2 cents is that the first line should extend to 2 mrad instead of just 1. Varmint shooting and prairie wind push my bullets past 1 mrad. Remember one of the most popular PRS reticles, the 2c in the Razor gen Ii, went to 2 mrad left/right on that first, lower line.

I can’t figure out why most scope manufacturers didn’t copy that feature. Exceptions: The Nightforce Mil-XT goes to 3 mrad, and the S&B grid or GR2ID (whatever) goes to 3 or more mrad, if memory serves.
 
Anybody got a close ballpark figure to what these will cost?
 
DellaDog said:
Sheesh, another reticle miss for March.

I really like March, but MSR, SKMR, MPCT2 and Minox MSR4 are so close to being just right, why does March always try to beat a new path??
Click to expand...

As you may have noticed, March are at the sharp end of engineering innovation with optical design.
There are already enough followers in the market.
 
Hellbender said:
I would add the large tapering outside lines (like the current FML-1) to all FFP designs, it makes the reticles actually usable at low powers, and disappears at the higher powers....no downside at all, IMO.
Click to expand...

On that note, I might make said lines taper out further and wider. They look thin enough to be frustrating when looking at a deer in a thicket on a sunny day.

Otherwise I really like this reticle and may have a hard decision to make between this and a ZCO...
 
308Gunner said:
Now if they would just put the High Master glass and this reticle in the 24 it would be just about the perfect hunting scope
Click to expand...
It’s not just the reticle, the 3-24 suffers from a finicky eyebox and lack of DOF with finicky parallax, these are issues when hunting - after the 4.5-28 I’d love to see them come out with a 3.2-20 that resolved the above mentioned issues. But putting the new reticle in the 3-24 would be nice for the interim; however, I’m not certain if they’ll do that. We’ll have to wait and see.
 
DellaDog said:
Sheesh, another reticle miss for March.

I really like March, but MSR, SKMR, MPCT2 and Minox MSR4 are so close to being just right, why does March always try to beat a new path??
Click to expand...
How so? The reticle is an uncluttered .2 mil hash similar to MR4 with dots in the tree?
 
gnochi said:
On that note, I might make said lines taper out further and wider. They look thin enough to be frustrating when looking at a deer in a thicket on a sunny day.

Otherwise I really like this reticle and may have a hard decision to make between this and a ZCO...
Click to expand...

I own both March and ZRO. I can tell you first hand that the ZRO line is far superior. Not knocking March as they are fine but as others have stated, there are a few things that could be improved.
 
1576974592417.jpeg


To me, it’s a personal prefernce I guess.

1576974699662.png
 
DellaDog said:
View attachment 7207138

To me, it’s a personal prefernce I guess.

View attachment 7207139
Click to expand...
Keep in mind that is at 42x, backed off to 25x and they might be very close. The MR4 goes all the way to within .2 mil of the dot while the FML-TR1 has the .2 mil width cross. But yes, the MR4 and Gen 3XR are my favorite right now. I’ll be curious to see how this looks in real world, I didn’t think I’d like the EBR-7 in the AMG but found it to be very usable in the field.
 
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wjm308 said:
Based on another thread and information that can be gleaned off the interweb, the following scopes will make their appearance at the 2020 SHOT Show.
Click to expand...

I own the Genesis 6-60 Mil and it is a good scope. I do have some feedback and recommendations.

I have a Wilcox Raptar and the Rail on the top of the Genesis would be good for this, except it has a serious inclination to it. For some reason the engineers decided to make the rail perpendicular to the top of the center body of the optic and not perpendicular to the rail mounting surface. This needs to be changed. This rail section should have 0 mils, not ~60 mils. Please make the top rail level with the base and provide a modified top rail to adapt the older scopes.

It would be nice to have a better system for elevation indication. It is quite easy to get lost in the revolutions of the elevation turret, especially in low light.

I currently have the Genesis mounted on an Anschutz 22 trainer and I have taken it hunting a few times to do some ELR crows, squirrels, etc. It actually works surprisingly well. The listed weight is high but you must remember that the weight includes the mount and overall it doesn't really weigh any more than something like a Zero Comp in a Spuhr mount. I do get concerned with knocking the objective end of the scope and breaking it. I have been assured by March that they have tested the optic on 50 BMG and other magnums, but my concern is how it would hold up of it was dropped while mounted on the rifle. This may, or may not, be a legitimate concern but it seems to me that it would be a simple solution for March to offer a guard that mounts to the rail at the end of the objective and creates a hoop in which the objective would sit to protect it if you would drop the gun or bash it into a tree, etc. (especially with the proposed 4-40x Genesis as this is targeted as more of a 'do-everything' optic)

When I received the Genesis 6-60x in May 2019 it had a faulty elevation turret. The customer service was horrendous. I mean horrendous. Ultimately, the scope had to go all the way back to Japan and essentially be rebuilt with a whole new turret assembly. It works beautifully now but it was a scope that was shipped DOA and took until September 2019 for me to actually have a scope to use. More than that, the distributer decided to fire sale all of their inventory shortly after I bought mine pretty much flooding and ruining the market for the rest of the retailers who were selling March products in the USA. Not sure what all of the politics are with March's retail arrangement in the USA, but I hope everything gets figured out with their recent shake-up. Fortunately, I think that March has no where to go but up in this department, so I think the changes will be for the better.

I attribute the customer service problems to the USA distributer and not to March/Deon in Japan. For those looking to buy, it is my understanding that March is going to have a new USA distributer and that these type of problems should be rectified in the future.
 
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Also, the new reticles look good and the Mil reticle in the Genesis works well.

A am excited for the future of March and it sounds like you are on the right track with these new products.
 
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Additionally, I would argue that it is a mistake to focus on the elevation range as the primary benefit of the Genesis optic. March would likely be better served by focusing on the optimal optical performance of always having everything optimally aligned no matter the windage or elevation. Very few people need that much elevation but everyone appreciates superior optical performance.

If the focus was that March set out to build a scope with ideal optical performance and the extreme adjustment range was a byproduct this would be more marketable than focusing on the extreme adjustment range and not really highlighting the optical performance.

I also see the overall design of the Genesis as a way to potentially incorporate some technology in a way similar to the Hensoldt 6-24x72 SAM, although it would be easier to just mount a Wilcox Raptar S on top.

 
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I know quite a bit about the history behind the GENESIS, but while I have played with one at SHOT 2019, I've never used one so I will defer to The Crusader's first hand knowledge in the field. The kerfuffle during the year regarding the rapid exit of the distributor for the Americas is now history and things have stabilized. There is not a new distributor in the Americas, there are several retailers who carry the March line. One needs to remember that March scopes are not mass production; they are all hand built in Japan and the production rate is not great so you may have to wait a while to get the scope you desire.

Now, talking about the new GENESIS 4-40X52 and the 5-42X56, it is important to remember these two scopes introduce something new; the wide angle eyepiece. Now, I have not seen every other scope on the planet, but currently, I am not aware of any other one that has that feature. I looked through the 5-42X56 at SHOT 2019 and I really liked the wide angle eyepiece. I'm speaking from memory here (this was a year ago and I'm an old geezer so beware) the regular eyepiece has a 20degree field of view (could be 21), whereas this new wide angle eyepiece has a 26degree field of view, a 25% increase. I hope to find the complete specs on FOV and such at SHOT 2020 and will report here.

Also the GENESIS 4-40X52 is the second FFP scope with a 10X zoom ratio, the GENESIS 6-60X56 is the first. It is my belief that because the GENESIS system always uses the best optical path in the scope regardless of elevation or windage setting, this is the reason these scopes can have a 10X zoom ratio; the image is not messed up by having to zoom in off-center and closer to the edge of the glass with increased CA and parallax issues like on regular scopes with the traditional erector tubes.

High Master lenses, 10X zoom, wide angle eyepiece, the image always through the best optical path, no need for a seperate mount; this scope is amazing.

ETA: I just checked the specs for the GENESIS 6-60X56, which has the wide angle eyepiece also. At 60X it does indeed have an FOV that is 25% wider than the regular riflescope at 60X.
 
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rydah said:
Better than anything March has had so far but they’re all just too complicated and distracting. Not streamlined.
.2 mil hashes vertical and horizontal with no breaks or gaps just run them straight to the centre with a floating dot. So in other words MPCT1 and then play with thickness and length of the hashes, alternating lengths etc.
Click to expand...

The reason for the gap is to differentiate between line thicknesses. For the +/- 2 mrad from center, the lines are a lot thinner than the ones outside of that.

Making everything equally thin does note work well on low power, while thick lines around the center would look kinda massive on high power.

ILya
 
Looks like TacomHQ makes something like what I was talking about to protect the Genesis.

Armor Optic

tacomhq.com tacomhq.com

Although what I was talking about is substantially simpler.
 
More specs can be found on March's website for the 5-42x56 High Master - https://marchscopes.com/news/3718/

A 5-42x56 with 40 mil of total travel is impressive, and 3 inches shorter than the Schmidt 5-45 and 2" shorter than the Nightforce ATACR 7-35, if this focuses close it might be a great option for rimfire work as well as ELR.

Nice to finally see this scope come to fruition, really curious to see these new 10 mil turrets.
 
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wjm308 said:
More specs can be found on March's website for the 5-42x56 High Master - https://marchscopes.com/news/3718/

A 5-42x56 with 40 mil of total travel is impressive, and 3 inches shorter than the Schmidt 5-45 and 2" shorter than the Nightforce ATACR 7-35, if this focuses close it might be a great option for rimfire work as well as ELR.

Nice to finally see this scope come to fruition, really curious to see these new 10 mil turrets.
Click to expand...

I can't really see why someone would choose the 5-42x56 High Master when the 4-40x52 Genesis is available. In nearly everything where the traditional scope excels the Genesis is even better, including length. It would probably come down to price but I doubt that the baby Genesis would be much more expensive by the time you add in an Era Tac Adjustable Inclination Mount or similar and almost surely less expensive if you were pricing in a Charlie Tarac as well.

Also, as I am sure most of you know, the real usable elevation on the 6-60 Genesis is limited by the clearance between the scope and the barrel because the objective gets closer to the barrel the more elevation you dial in. The 6-60 Genesis includes a riser for the scope to account for this but then the scope is way up there field target air rifle style. The 4-40 Genesis will likely have more usable elevation due to the shorter and smaller objective even though the total elevation is smaller.

Some people ask why more of the King of 2 Mile and other competitive shooters do not use the Genesis and there are a bunch or reasons which mostly come down to the specifics of the competition (and thereby the rifles used). If there were something such as 'field ELR' or the equivalent of an ELR PRS series where time and portability were factors there would probably be almost exclusive use of the Genesis. In reality, something like a Desert Tech HTI with a March Genesis is a pretty ideal man-portable 'field' setup. The shorter overall length of the HTI also mitigates the problem of barrel interference with the line of sight.

It really comes down to whether you think you should always have a 100 yard zero and whether or not you want to be adding and stripping extra equipment such as the Charlie. And if you have a 10 foot long rifle the Genesis is not going to work because all you will see is your barrel.
 
Once I figured out the center crosshair sub-tensions, the FML-TR1 is growing on me. I really like March's ability to parallax down to 10 yards.

I'll be ordering one and look forward to seeing it in person.
(Anyone looking for a nicely kept 5-40?)
How long after shot show till it's available?
 
The Crusader said:
I can't really see why someone would choose the 5-42x56 High Master when the 4-40x52 Genesis is available. In nearly everything where the traditional scope excels the Genesis is even better, including length. It would probably come down to price but I doubt that the baby Genesis would be much more expensive by the time you add in an Era Tac Adjustable Inclination Mount or similar and almost surely less expensive if you were pricing in a Charlie Tarac as well.
Click to expand...

Weight (33.5 vs 45.2oz is a lot in the field), presumably cost (I doubt they cut more than $2k off the cost of the 6-60), and if you’re shooting a cartridge that runs out of steam for spotting impacts well before you need more than the ~36mrad of down elevation you can get from the 5-42 (like pretty much everything that has a .589 or smaller rim diameter).

I think they’re pretty well differentiated into “ELR excellence” and “practical excellence”.
 
DellaDog said:
Once I figured out the center crosshair sub-tensions, the FML-TR1 is growing on me. I really like March's ability to parallax down to 10 yards.

I'll be ordering one and look forward to seeing it in person.
(Anyone looking for a nicely kept 5-40?)
How long after shot show till it's available?
Click to expand...

My understanding is that it is now production ready, which I suspect means it's about to enter production. Understanding that DEON is not a mass production entity, everything is built by hand and I would think they will be able to ship some in early 2020. I'll find out more at SHOT in 3 weeks or so.
 
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So March just posted on their website they have a new 1-10x24mm Shorty FFP scope. With the news this week from Vortex about their new Razor Gen III 1-10x24, this sure makes things interesting on the LPVO front. It is a 30mm tube and is short, light and has a side parallax which is pretty cool. While I'm not too excited about the existing reticles; however, they do mention they have more that are being designed, if they can get a good mil reticle with Christmas tree that works from 1x to 10x that would be impressive indeed.

marchscopes.com

New concept model March-F 1-10×24 FFP Shorty Scope | Products | MARCH Scopes | DEON Optical Design CorporationMARCH Scopes | DEON Optical Design Corporation

MARCH Scopes Official Site
marchscopes.com marchscopes.com


1578682664975.png
 
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Steel head said:
top reticle
All the information you need with being busy,obtrusive and confusing.

bottom reticle
Lots of pizazz to attract someone who doesn’t know what they truly want in a reticle yet.

the MR4 and ZCO tree I think are close to perfection for what I want.
Click to expand...
I think you meant to say "without being busy..." above, but I hear what you are saying. I agree that the MR4 is one of the best out, I had the ZCO MPCT2 in some of my reviews and while I like the overall design and thickness I do not like the solid horizontal lines in the Christmas tree, I found them to be distracting when I was hunting for targets, the SKMR3 has a similar design and while thinner than the MPCT2 it too can be distracting. I'd love to see a MPCT3 that has dots in the Christmas tree instead of solid lines. A blend of the MR4 and MPCT2 would be ideal IMO. The FML-TR1 reticle provides enough information without being too busy once you figure out the center crosshair is .2 mil away from the center dot and .2 mil across, some might find that confusing at first and some will like that only the cross and dot are illuminated, but I actually prefer the whole reticle to be illuminated for low light holds.
 
wjm308 said:
I think you meant to say "without being busy..." above, but I hear what you are saying. I agree that the MR4 is one of the best out, I had the ZCO MPCT2 in some of my reviews and while I like the overall design and thickness I do not like the solid horizontal lines in the Christmas tree, I found them to be distracting when I was hunting for targets, the SKMR3 has a similar design and while thinner than the MPCT2 it too can be distracting. I'd love to see a MPCT3 that has dots in the Christmas tree instead of solid lines. A blend of the MR4 and MPCT2 would be ideal IMO. The FML-TR1 reticle provides enough information without being too busy once you figure out the center crosshair is .2 mil away from the center dot and .2 mil across, some might find that confusing at first and some will like that only the cross and dot are illuminated, but I actually prefer the whole reticle to be illuminated for low light holds.
Click to expand...

If the MR4 and MPCT2 mated and had a baby it could awesome.

I also like a fully lit reticle.
on lowish powers in dark ground/last light conditions with my Cronus it’s nice to have a visible reticle when leading a coyote on the trot.
 
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I see where March is extending its warranty from 5 years to 10 years. Fully transferable, it's based on the date of production, regardess of owner history. They also state that if the problem is due to a manufacturing defect, they will repair the scope at no additional cost to the owner even after the warranty has expired.
 
wjm308 said:
So March just posted on their website they have a new 1-10x24mm Shorty FFP scope. With the news this week from Vortex about their new Razor Gen III 1-10x24, this sure makes things interesting on the LPVO front. It is a 30mm tube and is short, light and has a side parallax which is pretty cool. While I'm not too excited about the existing reticles; however, they do mention they have more that are being designed, if they can get a good mil reticle with Christmas tree that works from 1x to 10x that would be impressive indeed.

marchscopes.com

New concept model March-F 1-10×24 FFP Shorty Scope | Products | MARCH Scopes | DEON Optical Design CorporationMARCH Scopes | DEON Optical Design Corporation

MARCH Scopes Official Site
marchscopes.com marchscopes.com


View attachment 7221817
Click to expand...
Really stupid question, but where do rings go on that tube?
 
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wjm308 said:
So March just posted on their website they have a new 1-10x24mm Shorty FFP scope. With the news this week from Vortex about their new Razor Gen III 1-10x24, this sure makes things interesting on the LPVO front. It is a 30mm tube and is short, light and has a side parallax which is pretty cool. While I'm not too excited about the existing reticles; however, they do mention they have more that are being designed, if they can get a good mil reticle with Christmas tree that works from 1x to 10x that would be impressive indeed.

marchscopes.com

New concept model March-F 1-10×24 FFP Shorty Scope | Products | MARCH Scopes | DEON Optical Design CorporationMARCH Scopes | DEON Optical Design Corporation

MARCH Scopes Official Site
marchscopes.com marchscopes.com


View attachment 7221817
Click to expand...
Appears the 1-10 is concept only and production is 1-8??

March Optics® - Home of the World's Best Rifle Scopes

marchoptics.com marchoptics.com
 
Winny94 said:
Really stupid question, but where do rings go on that tube?
Click to expand...

I was wondering the same thing. I did a google search of the March 1-8x24 shorty since they share the same design. I came across this video. Looks like a company in the UK makes a mount that has a larger (40 mm) ring to clamp over the bell.

 
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BootyLord said:
I just read the same thing. Apparently they won’t even have a prototype at shot this year. Only “more details”
Click to expand...
That is correct, their website says concept, they are going to have the concept 4.5-28x52 so hopefully they'll also have the concept 1-10x24 FFP at SHOT.
 
koshkin said:
There are a couple of 1-10x24 prototypes in existence. Hopefully, they will have one.

1-8X24 Shorty is in production. I have one.

ILya
Click to expand...
Ilya, any chance, that you‘re aware of, of the adjustable parallax being an option on the 1-8 moving forward? Or perhaps that, plus the greater magnification range, will differentiate the 1-10.
 
ohiofarmer said:
Ilya, any chance, that you‘re aware of, of the adjustable parallax being an option on the 1-8 moving forward? Or perhaps that, plus the greater magnification range, will differentiate the 1-10.
Click to expand...
I should think that adding a side focus to the existing 1-8X24 is more than just adding "an option". That's a new scope.
 
BootyLord said:
I was wondering the same thing. I did a google search of the March 1-8x24 shorty since they share the same design. I came across this video. Looks like a company in the UK makes a mount that has a larger (40 mm) ring to clamp over the bell.

Click to expand...

That's pretty slick with the mount that clamps onto the front objective
 
Denys said:
I should think that adding a side focus to the existing 1-8X24 is more than just adding "an option". That's a new scope.
Click to expand...
Not an “option” as in a retrofit for the existing 1-8s, but now that they‘ve offered it in the Shorty package I doubt it‘s much of a leap for them to offer it in the 1-8.
 
ohiofarmer said:
Not an “option” as in a retrofit for the existing 1-8s, but now that they‘ve offered it in the Shorty package I doubt it‘s much of a leap for them to offer it in the 1-8.
Click to expand...

Theoretically, they could, but given that the 1-10x24 is effectively the same size has side focus, I am not sure what would be the reason to go through re-design of the 1-8x.

ILya
 
koshkin said:
It is generally not a good idea to clamp a ring right over the objective.

Many objective lenses have been cracked that way.

ILya
Click to expand...
i wondered if the objective housing would be a weak spot but figured they had tested that. Curious if the Vortex Gen III 1-10 would have a similar issue if you mounted too far forward. I bet a couple of ARC M10 X-High 30mm rings would fit behind the turret or a single mount like the Lancer SMRS and offer more flexibility or mounting position, any other single mount options out there?
 
These guys are doing some really cool stuff with their optics. I'm surprised I dont see more of these out there in the circles I run in.
 
I am patiently waiting for anew Batch of March scopes. I’ve held off buying a Minox or a ZCO just to get a new March.
Im getting antsy
 
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