New member requesting advice/insight

berzerkrobot

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May 31, 2010
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Washington
Hello, I am new here and new to precision bolt actions in general. I figure before I ask my question I will give you some info that might be relevant to my question.

I just bought a Remington sps tac 308 and dropped it in an AICS 2.0 last month and have been shooting it at 100 yards. With Federal GMM I have been able to shoot under .5MOA 3 round groups and with 17 year old mil surplus ammo I have recorded several .5MOA 3round groups as well, but more often than not the groups are larger with the surplus ammo. Seeing as that I am a noob to this, we can surely agree these numbers will shrink with more experience, and I am not about to blame my shortcomings all on ammo selection. I zero'd my scope using 168gr Fed GMM at 100yrds.

Which brings me to my question at hand. This weekend I was shooting german surplus 147gr, which before adjusting elevation on my reticle consistently hit about 2MOA high. I noticed a troubling pattern arise every few groups, where my first two rounds' POI would be touching, but the third would be way off - by about an inch. After shooting 20 3round groups, 5 or six looked like this, ALWAYS with the third shot being the one way off. I attached a pic of three of them to give you an idea of what I mean. Im sure if I were using nicer ammo this would have been less extreme, but I was hoping someone could lend some insight (other than the obvious 'more practice') that might help me get better and avoid this.

Note* Im still figuring out scope adj. for cheap 147gr vs. Fed 168gr, hence the POI's being way off center in these 3 groups.
img9565n.jpg
 

Sean the Nailer

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  • May 20, 2006
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    Re: New member requesting advice/insight

    FORUM RULES:

    "From this day forward I am deleting any 3 shot groups, and especially any groups that are groups within a group.

    So here are the revised rules for posting groups on Sniper's Hide.


    1. You must show the Entire target unedited.

    2. Inside 300 yards you must post at least (4) 5 shot groups that can be identified on target or you may post (1) 10 shot group for record. I will also accept (6) 3 shot groups on the same paper or target.

    3. Anything beyond 300 yards a minimum of 5 shots is required. Please note Rule #1 about the unedited target.

    4. The group shot rules can be bypassed with a target using 10 or more 1/2" dots with one individual round on each dot for a minimum of 10 shots. You can download the Sniper's Hide Dot Drill Target from this site to use in place of showing a group that does not meet the above criteria. You can also show a group containing less than required if you have it as part of a video showing you actually shooting the group.

    5. Shots on steel can only be used for demonstration purposes and not as part of an exhibition of group shooting. These images must be in conjunction with rifles, optics, etc... they cannot be standalone.

    6. Groups shots must be within 2 MOA of the aiming point, otherwise I consider the shots a miss.


    This is my effort to help everyone strive to be a better shooter and to shun mediocrity. At Sniper's Hide we want to set the standard of what shooting good groups means, and we encourage those who are practicing to display their groups especially if you are working on improving your skills.

    Any group currently posted on the site will be grandfathered in, however moving forward I ask the membership to be vigilant in enforcing the group shot rules and regulations. However this does not give any member license to be combative or argumentative with another member simply because they failed to adhere to the guidelines proposed. I do not want a thread destroyed from a member simply because they did not understand this policy. I think you'll thank me in the long run and we'll help raise the bar for everyone."

    Just to let you know, if/when this thread is deleted, so's you know why. Feel free to try again, with further insight.
     

    berzerkrobot

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    May 31, 2010
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    Re: New member requesting advice/insight

    My apologies - I figured because this isnt for bragging or merits, and only to show my shortcomings/errors as a new shooter, this would be an exception to the rule.
     

    UKDslayer

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  • Jan 29, 2005
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    Re: New member requesting advice/insight

    Please fill out your profile. We don't want to be helping the wrong side. That being said - seriously consider subscribing to the online teaching forum. I'd recommend some instruction or courses - but I don't know your AO.
     

    Lindy

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    Mar 26, 2003
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    Re: New member requesting advice/insight

    Stop shooting military surplus in that rifle.

    Some of it is steel-cored, and can actually damage the barrel.

    And there is simply no point is shooting crappy ammo through a precision rifle. Even if it doesn't harm the rifle, which it probably won't, you don't learn anything doing that, because you don't know whether your problems are due to the ammo or your technique.

    If you can't afford to buy match grade ammunition, you might wish to learn to reload.
     

    Adician

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    Nov 11, 2009
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    Re: New member requesting advice/insight

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Stop shooting military surplus in that rifle.

    Some of it is steel-cored, and can actually damage the barrel.

    And there is simply no point is shooting crappy ammo through a precision rifle. Even if it doesn't harm the rifle, which it probably won't, you don't learn anything doing that, because you don't know whether your problems are due to the ammo or your technique.

    If you can't afford to buy match grade ammunition, you might wish to learn to reload.

    </div></div>

    +1 to reloading. It's a bit overwhelming for about eight hours, then you get the hang of it.


    I went from shooting 40-60 roudns of .308 on a budget a week to shooting 100-140 of my reloads which do just as well. I figure I'll have recouped my losses in reloading equipment in no time.
     

    berzerkrobot

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    May 31, 2010
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    Re: New member requesting advice/insight

    I have been considering reloading, but I have no clue how much it would cost for all the equipment. can one of you guys give me a rough ballpark of price?
     

    Lindy

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    Re: New member requesting advice/insight

    In my experience, reloading doesn't save you money.

    What it does it allow you to shoot a lot more for the money you were going to spend anyway.

    Lament of the Precision Rifleman: Rifles are cheap. Glass and ammo are expensive.
     

    High Binder

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    Jun 18, 2008
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    Re: New member requesting advice/insight

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: berzerkrobot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have been considering reloading, but I have no clue how much it would cost for all the equipment. can one of you guys give me a rough ballpark of price? </div></div>

    Reloading wont save you any money but you'll be able to a do a lot more with your new rifle. Plus it adds an element of fun to the whole thing and you'll learn a ton about shooting in the process. To answer your question; I bet I have $1500 into reloading equip just for the .308 and .223 but now that I have made the initial investment, I can do any caliber with a quick $30 set of dies. You can do quality reloads for $300-ish for everything no problem.
     

    Queequeg

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    May 16, 2008
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    Re: New member requesting advice/insight

    What Lindy says is gospel. Don't waste time trying to pin down the cause of 3 MOA ammo shooting 3 MOA groups!

    Reloading is the most practical way to make match grade ammo if you don't have wealth!

    To begin reloading it is best to do your homework first. By this I mean start reading the how to stuff on this forum and elsewhere. Also pick up a good book like Lymans or Lee's and read through the how to sections to understand the differences in types of rifle ammunition, pistol, revolver, etc.

    Short answer, a ballpark figure of $500.00 would get you a decent setup including a press, dies, scale, powder, primers, bullets, cases, manuals, and associated tools for at leat one caliber Probably less if you do your homework. It's best to buy quaity and build on it rather than buy cheap and have to replace it outright.

    Try looking around for used stuff. One member from right here in Tampa scored about $8000.00 worth of equipment and componets last week for $500.00!!!!! DOH

    I don't deny my envy. I'm working through it...

    Check out the reloading threads in the reloadng section here on the hide. BTW, I have the same rifle in a B&C stock and I can often get 5 shot groups that are .5 - .75 MOA. Yesterday I was hitting steel targets at 565, 735 and 850 yards with it firing 175 gr SMKs. It was a good day!

    I can only wonder what it could do with someone who can actually shoot worth a damn!

    Good luck
     

    ewoaf

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    Jan 25, 2009
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    Re: New member requesting advice/insight

    I like Lindy's humor, however you could look at it this way.....
    Lets say I spent $400 on reloading shit, I got a simple set up the way I want. Lets say that I have a bunch of brass from factory ammo shot before I started reloading. You sill periodically have to replace that brass, but for now let's leave it out of the equation. I get started and figure that I can load good ammo for about 55 cents a round. This comes out to about $11 a box of 20. So lets say my factory ammo of choice is TAP for around $25 a box. By reloading I've saved $14 per box, or .70 per round. So going by that, every round you reload, you've just saved $.70, and at that rate after you've reloaded your first 571 rounds of ammo, your equipment has now paid for itself. After that...well things get really cheap.
     

    High Binder

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    Re: New member requesting advice/insight

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ewoaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">your equipment has now paid for itself. After that...well things get really cheap. </div></div>

    Now I just have to stop buying equipment.
     

    ZLBubba

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    Jan 15, 2009
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    Re: New member requesting advice/insight

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queequeg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What Lindy says is gospel. Don't wste time trying to pin down the cause of 3 MOA ammo shooting 3 MOA groups!

    Reloading is the most practical way to make match grade ammo if you don't have wealth!

    To begin reloading it is best to do your homework first. By this I mean start reading the how to stuff on this forum and elsewhere. Also pick up a good book like Lymans or Lee's and read through the how to sections to understand the differences in types of rifle rifle ammunition, pistol, revolver, etc.

    Short answer, a ballpark figure of $500.oo would get you a decent setup including a press, dies, scale, powder, primers, bullets, cases, manuals, and associated tools for at leat one caliber Probably less if you do your homework. It's best to buy quaity and build on it rather than buy cheap and have to replace it outright.

    Try looking around for used stuff. One member from right here in Tampa scored about $8000.00 worth of equipment and componenets last week for $500.00.

    We all weep with envy.

    Check out the reloading threads in the reloadng section. BTW, I have the same rifle in a B&C stock and I can often get 5 shot groups that are .5 - .75 MOA.

    I can only wonder what it could do with someone who can actually shoot worth a damn!

    Good luck </div></div>

    ^This. Shitty in, shitty out. If you use bad ammo, you're going to get sub-par results. The reloading forum is incredibly helpful. There's a ton of people on here with decades of reloading experience that can answer your questions. But the first thing you're going to need is a reloading manual.

    If you're not ready to commit a good hunk of change to reloading, then look to purchase in bulk. I'd go with Black Hills 175s if you can find a case. Good ammo.

    Welcome to the Hide and the shooting community in general. It's a great place to be.
     

    Switchblade

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    Re: New member requesting advice/insight

    147gr surplus ammo is for HK's, FAL's and Machine Guns. You should be shooting 168SMK's or 175SMK's in match oads only. Practice with them, shoot them regularly. You will sooner or later invest in reloading gear so you can make your best load for YOUR gun.
    147gr surplus will always have flyers, so will M118LR(it's the reason my son beat me in the Smack the Smily). It will never shoot anything better than 1 - 2 MOA on a good day.


    Check, and read the SCOPE MOUNTING stuff in teh optics thread. Remove your , well strip your optics system and start over. DO it right. Zero your rifle at first, 100M with match. Shoot only match grade stuff. CLean it right and hopefully you have broken it in right, if not, use the last four Tubb's loads to final finish your bore to get the factory stuff right.

    After you have solid five to ten round groups at 100M, move to 300 and see what you do.
    Remember, round placement up and down in a string is you and your breathing. Sideways right to left strikes are you jerking the trigger instead of squeezing it. MArksmanship basics are more noticable in scoped shooting and the effects of poor marksmanship are very noticable.
    I am sure anyone will be happy to walk you through all this, or you can PM me and I'll really scrtew your dope up
    grin.gif
     

    berzerkrobot

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    May 31, 2010
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    Re: New member requesting advice/insight

    thanks for the info Switchblade! I will pay more attention to the breathing (among other things). Also, My scope was zerod with fed gold metal 168gr at 100 yards, and seems very accurate when I use Fed. GMM. I have not had great luck with the surplus stuff, which is to be expected but I figured even with crappy ammo if there is a consistant problem that I am probably doing a few things wrong. Ill stick to match ammo and see if what happens!
     

    Furtaker_.223

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    Apr 22, 2010
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    Re: New member requesting advice/insight

    If I can, I will put in my 2 cent's worth. Reloading don't really save you money, I am up to 3500.00 so far on equipt, supplies and material, books etc. etc

    It doe's keep you out of the way of the wife ( mine and I get along better and she likes to shoot more)

    As far as your groups go, I also have the remmy 700 SPS in a 308
    I was getting the same, I slowed down, I got the barrel to the temp it liked, and shot a round every 1-2 min. I started getting .5-.7 with federal GMM 168g. I used them since I did not have my dies on hand yet. I just set into a B&C medallist stock, waiting on my bolt from Keith, and now have my test ammo loaded up for a start. I am hoping to get much better.