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New metal ideas form amunition?

P

pre64marksman

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jan 24, 2010
353
1
47
Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA
Apologies if this is the wrong place to post this. It is ammo related.

World wide prices of metals are all going up. Copper is getting up there faster than other metals it seems. Is there developement or thought regarding finding substitute metals for ammunition? When I ask this I'm wondering if it is possible to use something other than copper for long range match ammo? The old Winchester silver tip used a tin-like bullet covering. The silvertip is not a precision rifle ammo brand but, but could a cheaper metal be workable for precision ammo?
I don't know much about the manufacturing of ammo, but I predict that inflation, and rising materials costs are going to be a problem for shooting sports in the not too distant future. The ammo shortage now occuring may become long term. I hope there is thought to find alternatives to help ease this shortage.

 
Re: New metal ideas form amunition?

Black powder.
smile.gif


Actually HK tried to make a caseless design but I believe could not get around the ammo cooking off.
 
Re: New metal ideas form amunition?

Black powder is very fun!
Its amazing how accurate they got in the 1800s especially the rifles the confederates smuggled in from Britain for use by their "skirmishers!"

Caseless has always interested me. To bad the bugs are still not worked out yet. I wonder if the combustable case desing used by the M1A1/A2s gun could apply. Maybe an engineered ceramic case could be used while not being combustible, could maybe be much cheaper than a brass case and still allow for extraction of unfired rounds.
 
Re: New metal ideas form amunition?

I forgot to mention, a big factor(I've been told) with the ammo shortage is primers. Unfortanetly until something becomes really popular, anything new tech or material-wise will start out costly. However if ammo shortage continues much longer, I think nescessity would strengthen popularity for any new alternatives. It would be nice to see more initiative from the ammo makers.
 
Re: New metal ideas form amunition?

Thanks Cartman. After reading that I always wondered why the went the direction of fixing the propellant when they could fix cookoff with open bolt firing like an M10 or the MG42 or such. Would not have to worry about the

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cartman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_&_Koch_G11
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caseless_ammunition</div></div>
 
Re: New metal ideas form ammunition?

IMHO, people look at steel jackets with a jaundiced eye, but maybe not for valid reasons. 'Common wisdom' is often neither logical nor accurate.

For the most part, such jackets (and cases) are actually made from a ductile iron alloy, and are softer than barrel metal. Maybe not as soft as conventional gilding metal used in conventional jackets, but not the horrific bore thrashing menace many attribute to them. IMHO the primary threat is from the effects of iron oxide accumulations; which I would address with careful storage and steel (actually iron) wool.

We hear the term burnishing being bandied, with regard to copper, which results in a bimetallic bond and serious potential for bimetallic/galvanic corrosion (aka 'pitting'). Consider the consequences of replacing that copper burnish with one of iron. IMHO, that's maybe even potentially advantageous, reducing the potential/consequences in terms of such corrosion. I think it's an issue worth considering, at any rate.

Caseless ammo could be primed differently, with electric/electronic initiation, eliminating the need for metallic priming components.

Steel(iron) cases don't reload well, since <span style="text-decoration: line-through">combustion can leave corrosive residues</span> steel and iron are far more vulnerable to corrosion. Propellent combustion products which would not be sufficiently corrosive to harm brass can and usually does begin corrosion to iron/steel case interiors immediately after firing. Other materials might be substituted for cartridge brass, including polymers, but my suspicion is that a coating could be developed for iron cases that would defeat the effects of corrosion, one which might even be restored/replaced as part of the handloading process.

For a projectile core, I would use bismuth granules; either compressed or sintered.

For most intents and purposes, the same basic properties are reproduced, in a non-toxic and effective manner. I don't know the actual and precise economics, but I suspect it could be less costly, too.

Greg
 
Re: New metal ideas form ammunition?

I just added up all of the hash marks on one of my ammo boxes and it totaled 57. So I have reloaded these Lapua cases 57 times for my AR-15. That brings the cost down to about .01 for each reload.
myerfire
 
Re: New metal ideas form ammunition?

CSAT uses a swinging chamber so that the cartridge can be pushed out to the front.

LSAT is the same, but it actually has a case.
 
Re: New metal ideas form ammunition?

Good points all!

Greg, I never figured on the corosive issues-that there is some form with both. I'm reminded of what a plumber told me as to why its bad form to have both copper and steel piping in a system. Its that electric differential or whatever that can encourage corosion. I wonder if a barrel would have to be coated or plated to better deal with a new jacketing
 
Re: New metal ideas form ammunition?

Bimetallic or galvanic corrosion is a very common issue in our world.

It's what makes most batteries function, and a combination of copper, steel, powder/primer fouling, and atmospheric oxygen and moisture actually creates a fairly effective form of dry-cell battery. Ion transfer is the process which produces the resulting pitting.

The combination of dissimilar metals is a key factor in the process. While copper and barrel steels are very efficient components in such a process, steel and iron share enough similarity that the efficiency would probably be an order of magnitude or two less.

My introduction to galvanic/bimetallic corrosion was in maintaining overhead railway power. At 11KV, and amperage levels sufficient to propel a freight train, bimetallic corrosion is not just an inconvenience. All of the catenary (primary distribution net, the part that the train draws power from directly) components were made from brass. When we replaced parts, we had to fabricate them from brass rod and bar stock. The alloy composition was critical. Even small dissimilarities would result in rampant corrosion due to the enormous currents involved. That's why the train ran on 11KV; running at a lower voltage would require more amperage, and that would simply melt down the power distribution net.

Bore coatings would probably be far less necessary/effective with iron bullet jackets. Copper fouling is removed by solvents which dissolve and transport it. A solvent that would be effective against iron fouling would also attack bore metal. In such instances, inert bore coatings, like chrome, might be effective, but chome plating may not be compatible with peak accuracy.

Greg
 
Re: New metal ideas form ammunition?

I guess the nature of the beast is, if the metal is soft enough to be grabbed by the lands, it is also soft enough to come off with friction, and than needs to be solved out. If there was a way to detach the residue without solvents. The heat makes it cake on so that it takes disolving for it to come loose? My guess is dry scrubbing wouldn't do, maybe a soap of sorts? Maybe that's out there.
You mentioned peak accuracy with chrome, is it problematic because the friction could be inconsistant? I decided long ago to stay away from moly coat bullets as I (maybe wrongly) speculated that they might create inconsistent friction, some bullets might slip faster than others etc. Is that an actual problem with chrome plating or is it something else.
 
Re: New metal ideas form ammunition?

I comment on the chrome bore plating simply because I've read posts here that suggest it affects accuracy, but personally, I'm not sure about it. I've used steel/iron jacketed 7.62x39, and not really had any particular problems with cleaning, although it was copper washed.

As for special bore cleaning or bullet coating processes, I'd be wary of predicting or anticipating problems. This would be, for me, a matter of testing and observing. A borescope would be very important to the process.

But these are not new problems. Military ammunition was made with steel jackets during WWII, and there are no horror stories that I'm aware of that can be attributed to the practice.

Greg
 
Re: New metal ideas form ammunition?

It used a steel jacket more recently than WWII. The Germans ran the HK G3 on the stuff...
 
Re: New metal ideas form ammunition?

Being wary of the poly bullets was for me just speculation, no actual testing I've done or have seen has put it down. I get the impression that its hard to sell a gun that has had a lot of molly bullets down it, so others are thinking the same. I've read were it might be better to actually do a molly process on the barrel rather than rely only on the bullets being moly. That way the coating is even on the rifling. I'm not too worried about it, though if I ever owned a 338Lapua or a 50, I might think about it if it helped extend barrel life.
 
Re: New metal ideas form ammunition?

The absolutely simplest way to employ moly is to add it to the powder charge. BR shooters have been doing this for years.

It coats the bore in precisely the same way as the powder kernel's already existing graphite coating does, producing a moly fouling layer very similar to the carbon fouling layer that comes from the graphite coating.

Instead of treating carbon/graphite fouling as a hindrance, maybe it might pay better to treat it as a dry bore lube with the beneficial properties many attribute to moly. In the first instance it's already there.

Personally, I'd be adding graphite to the propellant charge, instead of moly. Maybe give new meaning to the term 'Fouling Shots'. It's easier to remove, and imposes no uncertainty at the time of sale.

Chrome bore plating was one of the very first improvements added to the M16 following its initially disastrous intro.

Many large caliber ammunition cases used for US Ordnance (20mm, etc.) are formed from aluminum. Ductile and easily alloyed, it serves well in its first firing. It is, however, also highly vulnerable to oxidation, and this could present a complexity when hand reloading. ...Or not, it remains to be seen by this observer.

By the same token, aluminum has the mechanical properties needed for a bullet jacket. Aluminum oxide can be abrasive, but maybe some anodized coating precess(es?) might allay this issue. ...And maybe a mildly abrasive bullet could have bore conditioning capacities that are as yet unexplored. I could see compressed bismuth powder cores with aluminum jackets being loaded into aluminum cases, with anodizing being a possible aid to the process. Even primer cups could be made from aluminum; and I think it could also be useful for .22LR rimfire casings.

CCI makes some of its Blaser handgun ammo line from aluminum cases. Although it's Berdan primed, a friend (a considerably more adventurous friend than I...) successfully modified a fired .45ACP case on a drill press, added boxer priming, and successfully reloaded and fired the case. Further experiments were neither anticipated nor performed, but this proof of concept does exist.

Just because a thing hasn't been, or isn't being done does not mean it's not a viable approach. Economics and other imperatives change constantly, adding to and detracting from the viability of many ideas on a constant basis.

If we insist on thinking entirely inside the box, our ideas are consequently and maybe unnecessarily limited.

"Think about it...." Think about a lot, and often...

Greg
 
Re: New metal ideas form ammunition?

Your insights are fantastic! You know the metals real well, thanks for the input. I hope this discussion can continue and maybe some experimenting can come of it, maybe someone than could start selling alternative ammo, especially match quality!

I'd happily go with aluminum! Aluminum comes in so many flavors now too so there are options! The anodizing and such is also extensive now. I do remember the blazer ammo. I have purchased and shot alum cased 9mmin in my Baretta 92 before and a freind of mine used to have a 44mag. All he bought and shot were those blazer rounds! A brass has aesthetic qualtiy, but if good consistency can be had with aluminum case and jacket, its worth looking more into that. The comodities prices will be rocketing as other countries expand. I'd hope we can stablilise the dollor but I fear not anytime soon, so inflation's the other nasty creature to deal with.

As for the carbon in a barrel, my brother(about 10years my senior) had a Marlin M25 bolt 22 from the eighties. The kid never knew what cleaning was. When I became old enough to shoot, and he was gone to college, he said I could shoot the gun and take care of it. It had some good cake in the barrel! First time I shot anything impressive was with that gun. I taped a dime to a stick and took my time cross legged at 100yds and the cold barrel shot(CCI stinger) took the dime off, still have the dime(tacod it). I was 16 or 17. Not trying to brag or anything but it was a very dirty barrel but had micro groove rifling. I started cleaning the gun and it started worsening accuracy-wise.
 
Re: New metal ideas form ammunition?

Not insights, or at least, not mine alone, or first. Most of it comes from several decades of reading gun rags, including the mass market ones that get slammed here from time to time. Most of what I'm suggesting has not only been written about, it's also been tried from time to time. Our own government ordnance folks have done all this before. In many cases the info was not followed up for economic reasons, and a large part of that was the government's huge degree of inertia when it come to changing course. The validity of this reasoning is not cut in stone.

With .22LR most of the preservative properties comes from the wax/grease lube, not carbon, but carbon's there anyway.

Carbon/graphite in kernel coating is there as an electrical conductor, to drain and prevent static electric buildup before it reached proportions that promote arc discharges within the powder mass. It's been there since the 19th century, at least; and powder cannot be produced and shipped safely without it, or something else that serves the same electrically conductive purpose.

Where aluminum casings, jackets, and primers are concerned, we are at the mercy of the manufacturers. Until they get this particular bee in their bonnets, such musings are going precisely nowhere.

Greg
 
Re: New metal ideas form ammunition?

I would hope small time ammo makers could spring up and take up the initiative on new materials. Trouble is the system is vary predatorial and smaller companies have to be cunning. I'm not against big corporations, but I favor smaller start-ups because they are more adventerous, and better yet more willing to please the average joe.
 
Re: New metal ideas form ammunition?

Intresting, but I have strong doubts about frictionless coatings, because of their friction reduction, increasing barrel life. Unless I'm wrong, bore friction runs a distant second to heat checkering in the throat as the primary cause of barrel failure.

Greg
 
Re: New metal ideas form ammunition?

"The old Winchester silver tip used a tin-like bullet covering. The silvertip is not a precision rifle ammo brand but, but could a cheaper metal be workable for precision ammo?"

Silver Tip bullets had a thin aluminum alloy cap over a soft core.

Aluminum cases are used for some pistol ammo but it's not reccomended for reloading. (But, I've done it anyway, never did follow directions very well!
wink.gif
)
 
Re: New metal ideas form ammunition?

Sorry to rain on your parade, but we are victims not of commodities price increases, but a bunch of MBA bastiches toying around with the theory of what the market will bear.

How many POUNDS does your box of bullets weigh?

Take the most expensive per pound of the component metals--copper.

ASSume that the entire box is 100% copper. Multiply the cost per pound by the weight and you have the MAXIMUM commodities price component possible.

The rest is fabrication costs (doesn't change with commodities pricing for the metal, can change a little for energy costs), packaging costs, marketing costs, funding the pensions costs, and transportation costs.

So, copper goes up by an additional $3 max possible per box of bullets...???...then WHY did OUR costs go up by $10?

The analysis only gets worse when you figure in the true commodities costs of the lead cores and those lower per pound costs, and compute it on the smaller fraction of expense truly attributable to the copper.

BEND OVER, it ain't just the politicians who are trying to give it to us in the...
 
Re: New metal ideas form ammunition?

Lot of valid viewpoints here. Truth comes in a variety of shades

I like Bismuth for cores. Virtually identical mass/specific gravity with lead. Malleability, etc., probably acceptable. The non-toxic aspect enables the ducking of a huge bullet regarding EPA/Enviromental gun hater's potential leverage. Casting it is problematic. Compressing/sintering bismuth powders might work better for cores.

Aluminum is malleable, something pretty useful for jackets. It's also more chemically active than gilding metal, with a bigger potential for oxidation and bimetallic corrosive reactivity with bore metals. Maybe not so useful for jackets.

Cases, another set of issues. I wonder how aluminum and cartridge brass compare regarding repeated workability. For the military single use applications, they find the use of aluminum casings, especially for airborne cannon ammunition, has significant weight advantages.

Greg
 
Re: New metal ideas form ammunition?

I do agree there are other factors than just component costs for sure. I just figured it would be good to see what alternatives to copper there are. Copper is the most expensive metal in a cartridge, so it is good to see if alternatives would work in case there is a rationing in the future. What's the deal with primers? The primer shortage is what I find odd.
 
Re: New metal ideas form ammunition?

The military is looking a liquid propellants, rather than loading a 1 piece round (projectile, propellant,primer,case) or 2 piece like the M1 Abrams. This system injects propellant like a fuel injector on your car behind the projectile and it is fired electronically. As far as bullets themselves bore riders out of leaded steel have been around for years.Or banded steel bullets with a driving band of brass,bronze or copper. Or how about sabot rounds using long rod hardened steel projectiles with grooved segments so it breaks up on contact in a polymer sabot.
 
Re: New metal ideas form ammunition?

A banded steel bullet would be a great idea! So too the liquid propelent! It would definately require a new design of rifle. A singleshot falling block rifle might do the trick.
 
Re: New metal ideas form ammunition?

Zinc bullets were tried several years ago, and pure zinc is said to be easy to cast. Zinc is less dense than lead, so is lighter than lead for a given size.
Maybe galvanized lead bullets would work.
 
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