Oof! Were you able to harvest the tender loins?
- Thread starter Joshua1:9b
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Nice situation to be in. I joined our Depts SWAT unit so I could upgrade my crap LE6920. Then got into their "sharpshooter" program which was the red headed stepchild of the Dept. We got Remington 700 with garbage synthetic stocks and crap 3-9x rifles. We were shooting soft point 175s and it was dept policy that you never took a shot past 100 yards. Those factors (gun, ammo, policy) resulted in the death of 2 of my close friends in 2011. Had they allowed me to setup with my personal equipment my friends would be alive today.. That was the end of my SWAT experience and the beginning of the end of my LE career. Consider barrier penetration. IME it is crucial when trying to protect the lives of your team. I would pick a good match grade practice round but I would zero with a solid copper round. Its not difficult to correct for known shift at practice.
My thoughts are with you on surviving and moving on.
A couple of us here have pretty negative thoughts about the fucking idiots who run most LE depts then and now., after giving a bunch of our life to LE.
Best to you, and hopefully a blessed future.
The only thing I didn’t get off of him was 1/2 of one side of the backstrap due to a preexisting injury. You can see it at the top of his back. A roughly 6”x4” swath scraped nearly down to the bone. It didn’t seem to be affecting him.
The major deficiency in using deer as a surrogate discussion point for human targets is the disparity in will to live. They will absorb massive damage, without pharmaceutical enhancement, and run way farther than you’d think.
I am very new to deer hunting (no successful hunts yet). But I imagine it's harder to "psychologically incapacitate" a deer.
Back in the 20th Century when Sniper Country still had its Duty Roster blog, one of our number (a former Naval Corpsman, Doc K.) was a deer culling expert in Maryland. He had shot hundreds of deer in public spaces to reduce crop damage and lower the risk of vehicle collisions.
His rifle of choice was a Remington 700 and favored cartridge was Federal 168 Gold Medal Match. He eschewed torso and neck hits for the sure thing -- central nervous system shutdown with cranial or spine shots.
For law enforcement purposes you need a consistently precise weapon, glass, and ammunition -- and the skill and discipline to place the shot correctly.
Research and be selective. The FBI used to offer training, as well as the NRA and some POST-certifying colleges and junior colleges.
Example (Texas Engineering Extension Service at Texas A&M):
His rifle of choice was a Remington 700 and favored cartridge was Federal 168 Gold Medal Match. He eschewed torso and neck hits for the sure thing -- central nervous system shutdown with cranial or spine shots.
For law enforcement purposes you need a consistently precise weapon, glass, and ammunition -- and the skill and discipline to place the shot correctly.
Research and be selective. The FBI used to offer training, as well as the NRA and some POST-certifying colleges and junior colleges.
Example (Texas Engineering Extension Service at Texas A&M):
| LET574 | Basic Sniper | Basic Sniper uses practical exercises to provide law enforcement designated marksmen the knowledge, skills, and abilities to effectively engage threat targets in response to an active shooter, hostage rescue, or barricaded shooter situations. This course meets Texas Commission on Law Enforcement (TCOLE) requirements SWAT Sniper Training Course #3324. |
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They are not.
For sure.
The bullets that Sierra produces and markets as TMK are actually "MK" in name only.
All of the MatchKing BTHPs that Sierra has produced for decades have a specific ogive profile that has been proven to provide the best accuracy across a wide variety of throats, lead lengths and chambers. This is why the entire Federal GMM line has been so successful.
When Sierra introduced their new line of Tipped MatchKing bullets, they were under pressure for higher BCs to compete against Berger and others. Accordingly, they designed the ogive profile on all their "TMK" line that is longer and pointier. The BC was increased but the legacy MK profile was abandoned.
When Federal decided to get off their ass and stop letting Hornady take all of their L.E. business, they started a project they dubbed as their TAP killer.
They knew the relatively new TMKs would not be as forgiving across a wide variety of LE rifles. They wanted GM308M accuracy and consistency but with optimum terminal performance for "open air/non-barricaded deployments.
Federal went to Sierra and had them design a tipped bullet with a traditional MatchKing ogive that had optimal jacket and core for best terminal ballistics on meat with feet. Federal purchases a gazillion bullets from Sierra so obviously Sierra was on board.
To my knowledge, these projos are exclusive to Federal and cannot be purchased from Sierra as a component.
If you look at the 168 in T308T side by side with Sierra's branded TMK, you can spot the difference even with your basic Mk1 Mod0 eyeball.
Federal loads these bullets on the same machines as the GM308M line.
It is obvious when you shoot it too!
So, now you can have true Gold Medal performance but with a mission specific bullet.
I believe the T308T is the best open air/general issue L.E. ammo.
Paired with Federal's werewolf rounds for barriers, our OP will be well equipped.
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About 12 yrs ago, we were invited to an LE get-together that was supposed to be an Aoudad hunt on a ranch close to Carrizo Springs, TX.
About 25 attended.
Turns out a couple of previous groups jacked up the aoudad before we arrived so it turned into a pig/hog hunt. I think I was the only MFr that brought a .308 with game bullets. Almost everybody else was slinging their free issue GM308M.
I dumped a good size hog close to a feeder right a dark the first evening which we ate off of the next day. Excellent bullet performance (150gr. Nosler pointed Partition).
About 30 other swine were killed over the 3 day stay with the MatchKings. Two thirds of them looked like they were stabbed with a steel rod. The other third looked like the bullets exploded on the shoulder with little penetration.
My opinion of first hand dissection and inspections is that the Gold Medal is super erratic and inconsistent on meat.
Just like we already suspected....
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Seriously?
If the OP is still looking for more info, he needs to have the mods push this over to another channel.
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I would heavily weigh the overall cost of achieving proficiency and sustainment -systemically- over notional terminal performance. Get a good enough system, good enough weapon / optics / range finder .. meaning reliable and repeatable accuracy. The rounds spent in training and proficiency in getting a small piece of metal where it's supposed to go.. are far more important than chasing some hyper-optimized "terminal ballistics". I'd rather have a guy that can put m80 ball where it needs to go.. because they have the requisite practice.. than supercool widgets they can't employ in any condition on demand because they overspent on widgets, instead of training time.
m855 works, mk262 works, mod1 works, m80 works, m80a1 works, ab39 works.. of more importance.. can the shooter get the rock where it needs to go. I have never seen any rifle caliber not do the job.. pistol calibers are for more dependent on placement / projectile
In short 308 is a beast at LE distances... IMO 300m and with the vast majority closer in. GMM is great if if functions well in your system. Frankly if not for intermediate barriers 556 is probably a better choice because the cost benefit of more training via ammo and system cost.
m855 works, mk262 works, mod1 works, m80 works, m80a1 works, ab39 works.. of more importance.. can the shooter get the rock where it needs to go. I have never seen any rifle caliber not do the job.. pistol calibers are for more dependent on placement / projectile
In short 308 is a beast at LE distances... IMO 300m and with the vast majority closer in. GMM is great if if functions well in your system. Frankly if not for intermediate barriers 556 is probably a better choice because the cost benefit of more training via ammo and system cost.
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Seems that most replies are either assuming or comparing their experiences with ammunition and open air shots. Obviously when you shoot something/someone directly in the heart or head unimpeded......terminal performance is generally very good (though there's plenty of documented FGMM failing in things like nasal cavities).
Ever tried shooting that deer behind glass? How about behind glass, but 15-30ft behind the glass? Acrylic glass? Polycarbonate glass? Laminated Glass? Tempered Glass? I mention glass because that's generally the most common barrier. And for many callouts, will be more common than an open air engagement.
FGMM already has marginal performance on soft tissue. Let alone when you add in a mouse fart.
Ever tried shooting that deer behind glass? How about behind glass, but 15-30ft behind the glass? Acrylic glass? Polycarbonate glass? Laminated Glass? Tempered Glass? I mention glass because that's generally the most common barrier. And for many callouts, will be more common than an open air engagement.
FGMM already has marginal performance on soft tissue. Let alone when you add in a mouse fart.
Human target, yes.
Difficult to see 15-30 feet behind glass, day or night. Most often impossible to get the correct angles.
Acrylic glass? Yes
Polycarbonate glass? Yes
Laminated Glass? Yes, including aircraft and that chicken-wire reinforced stuff they use in school doors..
Tempered Glass? Yes
There's no panacea, no single ammunition type that will defeat any and all types of barriers. The original poster is looking for a recommended cartridge to start. Many have recommended he determine what he needs to start a generic team (armed with a variety of guns) for the most likely and most dangerous jobs his department faces.
If he has to defeat all those windows and barriers he may need something besides a .308 autoloader, and back-up shooters.
I'm not sure his team is even in crawl mode if his department isn't buying him ammo and training.
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I didn't imply there was a single ammunition for any of that. I'm merely stating that many of the responses are assuming terminal performance is only an open air situation. When in fact, most engagements are going to have a very high potential to be a through barrier engagement.
Obviously we could continue on with things past just defeating those barriers and into what happens after penetration such as the spawling each type produces and how that does/does not restrict your ability to engage depending on the scenario. As well as what you mentioned about needing a different system or successive shooters for some types. But that's training much later down the road.
The above poster asking why anything larger than a .223 is needed is a good example.
Just go with the 150 grain Gold Dot, our dept has used it for as long as I can remember. Never had an issue with it. Most of our "engagements" were less than 125 yards so long range ballisitics do not even figure into it. Your mileage may vary but its a damn good round
Both myself and Google are unaware of Federal werewolf ammunition. Can you provide a link to the product?
Our team (3 dept combined), and two half sister depts, used the ASA guidelines for ammo, and we have 5 sniper shootings among the depts. I'm an ASA member and have all their data and understand their reasoning. And glad they will support you in court, just in case.
However, (as Derrick says), I have no trouble with using fgmm, bc I did it for 17 years... based on FBI position papers, training, and support. FGMM is still the back up ammo when the distributors can't supply eldm fast enough. Or...
Now, if TC will do a position paper on the "new" fed ammo, I'd switch to that tomorrow. Just sayin...
BC, if you read all this, you will discern that TC isn't sold on eldm, and you will see TC and Dave mention soft Hornady brass, and you will see me mention a two year horribilus test w eldm and ar10's... AND not mentioned b4 today, but, that soft brass would shave & lock up the ejector plunger in our test ar10's in 5 rounds..
And, yes, I have three of the heaviest buffers ever made, a collection of adjustable gas blocks, and had a bolt carrier weight system sitting in a parts box after those two years of frustration. AR10s are back to almost stock conditions and shoot fine with fgmm 168/175, 118LR, any US ball ammo, and some lots of Hornady black.
We have one case of eldm ar we are testing now... results aren't ready to report... one DD glitched with it....
Why the emphasis on ar10's and eldm ??? That is part of the original post request for info and type of ammunition.
The answers have strayed far far far from that.
In our departments AI's, I have no problem with any of the acceptable picks of sniper ammo out there. It's not in question at all. Zero..
Pick the most accurate of the acceptable ammo and practice practice practice, then practice some more... replace the barrel as needed, repeat. Repeat until hell freezes.
And yes, we have a couple of semi autos. . None of which have the dependability of the bolt guns. And we have a 5 year continuing experiment with them since eldm non ar ammo created this nagging doubt and the question the original poster posed here. Just sayin..
@Terry Cross ,
Txt me when u are back in civilization, non freezing your ass off, and can do a phone call please ...
Txt me when u are back in civilization, non freezing your ass off, and can do a phone call please ...
LE308TT2
Law Enforcement - Federal Premium LE, Speer LE, BLACKHAWK!, Eagle - Rifle Details
See Federal Premium LE Rifle details
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Why?
Any barrier in the way....
There is no replacement for displacement…
I would assume this barrier is glass? When has it or would it be a scenario where a police sniper is shooting through opaque barriers? Is there not barrier blind ammo in .223?
Nobody engages a threat they can't see... there are two posts here detailing intermediate barriers to overcome, ho back and read them, should answer any question you could have.
Best to you.
Edited my question
There is plenty of 556 ammo that will penetrate glass, but no 556 ammunition yet that will penetrate AND maintain both accuracy and energy like the 762 nato/308 barrier rounds. .gov testing exists in both .mil and LE avenues and has born out this.
HLee said above, there is no replacement for displacement.
Kinda why 50bmg is infantrys favorite for this need.
Not specific to 308 ARs, but I have had a couple instances of plastic tips breaking during loading, one of which found its way into the locking recess of my AR. That one deadlined my rifle in the middle of a stage.
Full disclosure, this was a 6.5 Grendel with 123 Hornady eld-m.
The ELD-M bullets have great bc, but the bthps don’t bend or break during loading…
In the last 15 years running various ar10 platforms, we haven't had issues that fixing overgas from adding suppressors didn't fix and kept them running all that time.
Wasn't until the soft brass blended powder eldm appeared we started having problems.
I'm shooting other tipped ammunition with no problem .
Thats what i was thinking. For a semi i would stick with the bthp
Buddy your arguing with guys with decades of actual work in police and military sniper realms
It’s a very common happenstance to have to shoot through barriers
Where do you get I am arguing? I am merely asking questions in hopes to understand the police sniper, because as you said, there are highly experienced and qualified subject matter experts here.
My apologies Having done the job for several decades I found the question so basic it seemed out of place I read it differently than you intended
You have some links to this testing? 5.56 penetrates armor plates more/better than 308, so I am curious why it's also not a popular choice for police snipers in the typical engagement distances of police snipers. Also sparks curiosity of the longer 6mm bullets with higher sectional density of the bullets. In a gross extreme question, why not use a low recoiling and hyper accurate PRS round & rifle for 50yds ish shots? (Solid copper monos come to mind too)
I get the impression a police sniper, I guess if he's doing it right, is always going to assume he will need to shoot through glass in every call out, and it's a bonus when the police sniper can get an "open air" shot.
It's all good in the hood! I have zero experience personally with police sniping, other than I knew some and saw some deploy in critical incidents. Last year some state snipers were in search of a range for qualifications and I let them shoot on my airfield. I didn't geek out on them and ask a bunch of questions because it was neither the time nor place. Really, it wasn't until this thread the whole barrier shooting was brought to light. So, here we all are online forum with time to bullshit on the topics and I let fly my quest for knowledge.
Never assume....
In most police agencies, budget determines equipment, ammunition, and training time.
SWAT is relatively new in history, with LE snipers/counter snipers/marksman coming into effect after an incident in Austin TX, a former jarhead, and a tower...
The FBI eventually created a defenseable curriculum for the position, and using all .gov data available, determined the 308/762 nato round the best to meet the perceived needs.
Which are/were a cartridge that performed from 0 yards to 200 yards, maintained sufficient energy and ability to do both open air and intermediate barriers, which are/were primarily glass, or automotive sheet metal.
For one to focus on the 50 yard and other distance bullshit, and pick a specific cartridge for 50 yards, ignores the history of longer shots.... 50 is an average.... of some 500 documented shootings with two of them over 500 yards and the shortest at 3 yards....
Administrators have to choose a platform that will meet the perceived needs of recorded police sniping, which the FBI studies still hold sway, fund the platform, its ammunition, and training.
Based on history, the FBI curriculum, ASA data, and other numerous un-named "trainers" that have proliferated since the war on terror, all agreeing that the 308/762 nato is the best compromise at this time, as well as the ammunition industry providing reliable quantity & quality ammunition to meet the perceived needs.
It can, and, may possibly change.
Should you handicap the LE Sniper with your 223 copper bullet 50 yard round, he's shit out of luck when the Prius is moving at 35mph at a defenseless victim and has to be stopped..
There are departments changing platforms/calibers/etc, and the test of time will prove them out.
The studies you ask about, are on line, and time searching them out is time well spent rather than reading opinions on am internet board. Doing your own searches is rewarding due to the knowledge you can gain and the satisfaction of doing it yourself.
Best to you.
In the police field we look for
Time proven rounds with long barrel life
Best to use something with lots of track record and many using
It’s all about getting job done with
Limited legal exposure because everything that can be attacked legally will be every time
Least amount of cost
Hence 308 is king because of history and lots of paper to
Back It up legally.
223 is fine for open air and at one time my old department had both calibers
So in short police snipers will probably never have the cutting edge in caliber technology
We always follow much later
We recommend an OTM projectile for any rifle that is intended for a use that centers on saving lives.
I have seen way too many polymer tips pop off, wedging into the barrel extension, or getting damaged during cycles, causing inconsistent POI, to recommend them for anything with that kind of expectation.
I have not seen this issue with Hornady A-Tips, but I do not have enough test data with .30 projectiles to have an opinion.
One other very important thing to ensure when selecting ammunition is that the primer is adequately retained for semi-auto rifles. My advice is to select a visibly staked/crimped primer and to confirm with the manufacturer that the ammunition is suitable for semi-auto use. Much like the projectiles themselves, I have seen too many primers drop from ammunition that was oriented to bolt-guns, causing the primer or the cup and anvil from the primer to float around inside the rifle until it eventually causes a pretty rough stoppage.
That's some good murphy management. Something I just thought about, and I don't know if it's police sniper SOP, but I've trained extensively "porting" the glass with 1-2 rounds with the 3rd an consecutive rounds flying unimpeded into the target. Seems like a police sniper could do the very same thing with an AR and have an advantage over a bolt gun in this regard.
This has been my experience with SMK’s as well in 223 and 308 on game. Most pencil through but sometimes they’ll grenade almost instantly. A lot of people swear by them as a hunting bullet but I won’t shoot another animal with them unless it’s just all that I had.
Kinda of a moot point on what ammo to use as majority of LE sniper teams have probably never taken a shot on a perp. Not knocking the OP, but I can’t remember the last time a sniper team has been successful
By your logic, the majority of LE have never been in a gunfight on a street, highway or bank so it is a moot point what handgun or ammo they carry.
At least the OP is attempting to gather information and make an informed decision on equipment used in high risk deployments.
Right at 500 PMO deployments documented so far where the long gun engaged a subject (successfully or unsuccessfully)
Best guess on numbers is that only about 1/4 to 1/3 of such deployments have post-shooting ASA surveys completed, so the majority do not get included in the data base.
If the best guess is close to being correct, we could assume 1,500 to 2,000 PMO engagements by L.E. covering the time span covered by the documentation/study.
Nobody I know would put their recent shoot on an internet board...
Not supposed to discuss it btw depts until after GJ no bills it... hmm
So, the most recent isn't likely to get publicity especially in today's anti le atmosphere...
"It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than be a gardener in war"
Porting the glass presents an unacceptable risk when LE must account for every round fired, know the backstop is "as safe as possible for the circumstances" and be able to justify your two porting rounds when they kill or injure an innocent party.
To deal with the increased resistance in glass, the 338 Lapua has been put into service and there are a couple of recorded successful deployments with them..
Your scenario with porting with a 223 on double pane hurricane glass is .... just not the right choice, the 338 proved it was in that case.
The case in question was in portland... do your own research on it.
You've graduated to my ignore list. I just can't take you serious. Between the contradictory statements in red, putting words in my mouth in blue, your overall condescending manner towards me, and all brought upon by mere question on cartridge use. Yeah, you are a hot mess.
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