Suppressors Newbie getting mixed info from local shops

[dark_archer]

Titles says alot about what I am having issues with I have been told by 4 lawyer's that trust are a good way to go and local class 3 dealers are saying otherwise recommended I file without a trust saying that the atf is removing the use of trust and i have read on multiple pages that efile is not working currently just need some info from people that have recently done efiles and if I do a trust a good way of doing it that isnt the 400 to 700 dollar range I have been quoted by local lawyer's any help is greatly appreciated

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[NICETRY]

Do the trust. Nothing has changed with the ATF as of now.

 

[dark_archer]

Did they have any changes that would affect people with a trust

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[jasonfaz]

It's tough to say as the fed govt can fuck with someone with a trust by simply pulling an Obama EA frenzy and declaring them illegal. Almost like the situation in CT where people bought ARs legally and were simply req'd to register or face the wrath of govt agents. A trust will only be what the govt says it is at the time. Lets look at a hypothetical scenario. Let's say the ATF didn't have to respond to 50k people that submitted responses to the proposed change related to trusts. Let's say they got around that or that people didn't take the time to respond. What happens then when you trust is revoked based on a new change to the law? I'd assume you'd be given a certain amount of time to comply and upon the expiration of that time period you'd become a wanted criminal. That's historically how liberals go about making misguided ideology a reality. They could do the same to people going through traditional routes but would have far less merit upon which to base an argument.

With a trust you essentially have risk based on the political environment at the time. Going the individual route - in which you have up to 5 different people that can sign the Form 4 - your less likely to get f'd with but you either have to roll your assets into a living trust that you might have going anyway - or work out a plan to transfer the class 3 items upon your death for $200 a pop just so you know your fam is good.

At the end of the day, if you have someone that will sign, just go that route. Your less likely to fly up on an LEO radar just because douche bags don't get out and vote for the conservative guy - or even worse - vote for the f'ing liberal.

 

[SilentG21]

Revocable living trust.

 

[TimeWillTell]

Please forgive my ignorance on this subject but once you have gone the individual route, can you just roll it over into a trust later? Or do you have to go through the whole transfer process to add it to a trust? And if you go individual route but add others to the form, do they have to also get their own signatures for it? is it limited to family members? I would assume they have to do their own finger print cards right? Just trying to learn, thanks!

 

[confused89]

You can put it on the trust at a later time, but you still have to pay a $200 fee per item to transfer it onto the trust just like when you actually bought the item because it is changing "hands". Once it is in the trust you do not own that item any more. The trust owns the item.

 

[jasonfaz]

Confused89 is not confused with respect the post above. You can transfer ownership into a trust at another time should one consider it necessary for a fee of $200. That said, you don't have to wait around to use or possess it. Neither would the individual becoming part of the trust as long as that person is "with" you. A trust is essentially a safeguard against the govt being able to repo your Class 3 possessions when your kids become old enough to use them on their own or a buddy wanting to use one on a hunting trip that is paranoid that the ATF will raid his camp on that particular week.

You cannot have anyone else on your form 4 when going the individual route. It's just you.

 

[jasonfaz]

And as SilentG21 said, a revocable living trust is exactly what I was referring to that you'd want to have in place to leisurely transfer ownership when the time is right. Ownership basically goes from your owning it as an individual to your owning it as the trustee of a living trust. You have a paper trail that is airtight and would have substantial legal advantages if trusts were to ever become a target of misguided political activity.

 

[dark_archer]

If you currently have a trust what did you pay to have it setup and were would be a good place to get it done I have seen some online places like the silencer shop just wondering

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[ZombieMonkey]

Trust all the way. They can restrict their requirements on new transfers to trusts through the rule making process or executive action, but they are not going to be able to do anything to make what was legally transferred illegal without legislative action. They would run into some stiff legal action in that particular case. The only time the trust is going to come back on you is if you had the transfer done on a trust that was not formed legally.

41p, the current proposed rule change is still going through the rule making process / review and will not be able to be enacted until likely beginning of 2015 if it will even happen. Based on the delay as a result of the comment period and the required responses they must provide to each comment, I have a feeling that things are going much slower than the ATF originally anticipated or they are stalling out due to legal pressures. Nobody will know including your dealers or any lawyers what any changes will be enacted until the ATF provides a formal notice of the rule change approval and a date on which they would go into effect. Regardless, the trust is here to stay even if 41p is enacted, there will just be a whole slew of new steps for the members of the trust to have to go through.

Eforms is down for Form 4 for the foreseeable future, do everything on paper rather than wait around hoping that it will come back. Otherwise you're going to be waiting around for quite some time.

Still waiting to hear from the ATF on my comment regarding 41p, curious if anyone else has received their reply or if they will all go out at the very end. Still pissed that they had a cap on the length of comment as I had to really edit mine down.

 

[TimeWillTell]

So what is the best route for setting up a trust? I would also like to have all my firearms and accessories (mags) in the trust as well. I cannot find a lawyer fairly locally that charges less than $1000. Some people say quicken loans type deal but that scares me a little also... anyone done it on their own before?

 

[CoryT]

There are two advantages to using a trust, one is you don't need a LEO signature on the Form 4, this can be important if you live in an area where the Chief LEO will not sign off. The other advantage is that a trust, like a corporation, may have multiple 'responsible parties'. This means if you have family members, etc, who might want/need to have access to the NFA item without you being present, you can include them in the trust and they can legally have possession of that item.

The down side of the trust is the cost involved in establishing a good and proper legal trust. The ATF is working on rules that would require trust members each be fingerprinted, have the background check and LEO signoff, which would eliminate reason one for the trust. If they do establish such rules, existing trust transferees can expect to be getting ATF letters that would get the trust paperwork updated with the FP cards and background checks. This may or may not happen, but I expect it will at some point.

If you transfer to an individual, no other person can have access to the NFA item without you being present. This means you need it to be locked up in an area that only YOU have the key/combination, not your wife, sister, son, etc.

Other can use the NFA item if you are present, they just can't take it to the range without you.

NFA items in an estate transfer tax free on a Form 5 to any legal heir, documenting this in the will is nice, but not required.

I'm a Class II mfg, and I've been doing Class III since they had 4 digit ID numbers, so feel free to ask any other questions.

 

[CoryT]

IF you really want a trust, pay the lawyer to di it right. If the trust is broken, the NFA items become contraband and will be forfeit to the ATF.

If your local LEO will sign, I would normally advise an individual transfer, unless you already have a trust or corporation, or have enough assets that you need to set one up anyway.

 

[TimeWillTell]

Well I don't currently have a trust or any NFA items. I do have a fair amount of value in firearms and accessories. I have read there is even some protection in trusts down the road for things like 30rd mags (depending on the legislation of course) that wouldnt be available for individuals. My CLEO will sign (and OK just passed a law that requires them to sign for those ones that won't sign). As I understand it the possession issue is worrisome: if I do individual transfer, but my wife or brother has the combo to the safe, if they open it without me being there, is that breaking the law?

 

[SilentG21]

My class 3 dealer created my trust from the quicken will maker thing you buy at best buy. Dealer charged me a whopping $00.00 for the trust as long as I was purchasing from them. Now, three suppressors later and not a single hick-up identified by the BATFE. Lawyers charging big bucks like that is a RIP OFF. My bank has a notary so that was free also.

 

[CoryT]

While you can certainly go the Quicken route, there are reasons a lawyer charges for the service. I would not have all that much faith in a free trust standing up to any real scrutiny.

>> As I understand it the possession issue is worrisome: if I do individual transfer, but my wife or brother has the combo to the safe, if they open it without me being there, is that breaking the law?

Yes, that would be a violation, it would be considered an illegal transfer. In fact, just having the combination, even if they never open the safe, is in fact a violation. Now, can anyone prove that or is it really going to cause a problem? Depends. Avoid the problem and keep the combo to yourself, or keep the items locked in another box, or cabled to the interior, etc.

 

[ZombieMonkey]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the trusts created from Quicken or other software. The true advantage of a gun specific trust is that they contain specific language that addresses some of the legalities that are specific to NFA registered items. Either one formed legally will be valid and will satisfy the requirements; the NFA specific ones are just more specialized. For all of the fear and BS posted about all of the forums and on the NFA lawyers sites about the Quicken trusts, etc, there have been no documented citations of a legal case where a valid Quicken or other trust has been ruled insufficient and resulted in any legal action taken against them.

In full disclosure I did create my own trust, however I am very comfortable with legal documents while someone who is not as much so may be better served having a professional do one. If you do one on your own and are unsure of it, I recommend you at the very least have an attorney review it.

 

[confused89]

I don't want to come across as advertising for this guy but this is the lawyer that I used.

NFA Gun Trust Lawyer Blog :: Published by Florida Gun Trust Lawyer David Goldman

He charged me $600 for a trust. They will send you instructions with it on how to fill everything out in it. The local gun shop guy that I bs around with also used him and he got a discount for being in the military at one time. He will get it all set up for you and then transfer it to a lawyer within your state to finish the paperwork. I looked at it this way, I was paying him for reassurance that he knew what he was doing and if something were to go wrong I could fall back to him to help me sort it out unlike if you were to do it yourself with Quicken. I hope this helps to answer some of your questions.

By the way, it all starts with one suppressor and next thing you know you have ten of them.

 

[jasonfaz]

I can't stand reading the complete and utter BS around "If you own a suppressor and your family can open the safe they can be thrown in jail" type of fear mongering. C'mon man, really? Let's go through and establish a precedent then on current case law that cites a specific ruling that coincides with such a decision. I've never seen a legitimate case that has proven this to be true. However, because there is ample room in the relatively vague language used in the law and associated regulations with respect to suppressor ownership, law firms decide they can spew bullshit because it 'could happen' but it just never has. Why? Because it's BULLSHIT! How in the F are you going to prove that your wife or your kid or whoever "knows a combo" to a random safe? How does that legally constitute possession? All the guntrust douche bags quote '26 U.S.C. 5861(a)'. Well look that shit up real quick. It's just a list of penalties associated with violating NFA law without actually delineating between what is and what is not a violation.

The point is - with a trust, it is very possible for legislative action to transform your 100% legal trust into a 100% not legal trust should the local, state or federal govt entities with any authority on the issue, at any given time, decide that it should be so. It is this way because you could simply attach an amendment stating that every individual on an NFA trust must go through what anyone would need to go through when taking the individual route. You wouldn't be able to enact such legislative action on the "application by individual" process as you wouldn't me changing anything. Many note that your CLEO may not sign off and hence, youre SOL.

Speaking of CLEO signature, you have options. You have 1. Chief of Police (appointed official), 2. County Sheriff (elected official), 3.
Head of State Police (county agnostic), 4. a State or local district attorney or ANY prosecutor having jurisdiction in the transferee's area of residence or; 5. any other person whose certification is acceptable to the Director of the BATFE.

You have options. You have political leverage. You have subjective local precedent set by regional BATFE leadership. Don't drop a grand on all the hype. I live in BOULDER county in Colorado. It's a rather liberal epicenter and I could easily go the individual route and simultaneously help dismiss the public perception of suppressor ownership by going that route. No need to drop 1k even if my wife does know a combo. Which she doesn't, or does, wait....I don't even remember if I have a safe??? ?

 

[csireeves]

I had my trust drawn up through www.199trust.com (I got a $69 deal on Gear Hog). My eFile was accepted by the ATF on FEB 26th and I got my tax stamp today (JUNE 26th) for my suppressor. I made my suppressor purchase through silencershop so they handled everything after I purchased the suppressor and tax stamp (through them) and submitted my trust info (to them).

 

[Pinecone]

Shop around. I am getting my trust done by a local 2A friendly lawyer for $350. I prefer to leave something like this to a practicing attorney, rather than some software package.

If you have any local firearms forums, try them.