Suppressors NFA Process for an AR upper?

[AkosPrime]

All,

I know this is the suppressor forum, but questions about the NFA process are likely to be seen by more people familiar with it here I thought. If it needs to be moved by the mods to a more appropriate forum, I get that.

Issue synopsis: At some point in near future I want to order a 9" AR upper in 300 Blackout. The uppers aren't serialized, of course. So what's the process with regards to NFA? Do I have to have already submitted a Form 4 for a lower and gotten it approved, with tax stamp and everything BEFORE I can order the upper? I'm assuming having a 9" upper in the house with any AR lower and without a ATF/NFA approved lower amounts to 'constructive possession' even if they're not mated together.

So do I get a lower, engrave it (because I have a trust for NFA stuff), and submit a Form 4 for that? Even though all it is/will be is a lower by itself? If so, does this mean that once I have one lower that's been ATF/NFA approved I can have multiple SBR uppers or do I have to have a matching number of AR lowers for each NFA upper?

 

[WileyG]

Re: NFA Process for an AR upper?

Submit a Form 1 on an existing lower. Show the shortest length that you would EVER build. When the approved Form 1 comes back to you, get the lower engraved. After that you can run any upper that you choose so long as it's not shorter than what the Form 1 lists.

 

[AkosPrime]

Re: NFA Process for an AR upper?

Wiley - thanks! That's short, succinct, and full of all the information I needed! You rock!

 

[fireguyty]

Re: NFA Process for an AR upper?

He is right except I have never heard that the upper's length on the Form 1 should be the shortest. I have only heard that what ever length/caliber you have on the Form has to be in the safe. The rest of the uppers don't matter in length or caliber.

I am in no way saying that I am right and he is wrong, but that is the way it was explained to me. Keep in mind that if you intend to get parts for SBR uppers that you are breaking the law if you don't have a way to legally assemble them.

Example: You have a normal 16" AR-15 rifle, along with a 9" AAC barrel, you would be illegal because you could assemble an illegal SBR. You can get away from this buy owning a stamped AR-15 pistol lower in you possession. That is what I did. I bought an AR pistol lower, form oned that, in the mean time got all the parts I intended to put together.

Good luck! 300 AAC shorty is fun.

 

[raider1v1]

Re: NFA Process for an AR upper?

what i did on mine was list what i would use the most and what would be the "official" configuration. then since its an AR, you can configure it without the use of tools, the caliber changes are OK.

I added on mine in the additional description box was add every possible caliber that you could use.

Additionally, you can send an addendum letter to the ATF to amend your tax stamp paperwork. Its something to the effect of "I also will be using X" length barrel in X caliber.

This isnt super clear cut as how to handle multiple calibers, only that you cant put MULTI in the caliber box.

Lastly - DO NOT BUY THE UPPER UNTIL YOU GET YOUR FORM 1 BACK. I also did a trust, so on my lower I had engraved the trust name & the city and state where I lived.

Listed somewhere on the rifle (while assembled) you need , make, model, caliber, city of manufacturer, maker, and serial #. All of that is on the lower except for the caliber. That will be on the upper on the barrel.

Let me know if this isnt clear or if you have more questions, Ill be happy to help.

 

[vinsonr]

Re: NFA Process for an AR upper?

I recommend getting the lower engraved before you submit the Form 1 - if they hose the job you may want/need to use another lower.

Having it engraved obviously does not mean anything w/o the stamp.

 

[Shoot 1st]

Re: NFA Process for an AR upper?

its on you if you have an NFA item in your possession and not taken the proper steps to protect yourself. You can buy a shorty upper without having the tax stamp, lower etc already. Just dont have that upper and a lower around each other until your legal.

 

[softcock]

Re: NFA Process for an AR upper?

Hey Quick question .

Whats the Deal with guys wanting a factory Nondenominational of Caliber marked Lower , For getting a SB stamp ?
I see lots of guys running around with short barrels of 9mm to whispers/.30 cals & there standard .556 Lowers as far as I can see .
.

 

[raider1v1]

Re: NFA Process for an AR upper?

for SBR's that "multi" stamp means nothing. you have to have a caliber designated in the caliber box on the Form 1. you can make tool-less swaps between calibers, but when you "make" the SBR, you need to designate a specific caliber.

 

[bm11]

Re: NFA Process for an AR upper?

From what I understand, the form 1 has to have a specific caliber listed (5.56x45, for example,) but once approved, there are no restrictions saying that you cannot run a different caliber upper, 300 BLK, for example.

 

[Helidriver]

Re: NFA Process for an AR upper?

Comments? Many people around here don't engrave. Our dealers advise against it because is devalues the weapon. They consider you a modifier not the manufacturer of the firearm. Unless you machined the firearm from scratch you didn't make it. It was a firearm when you started. The engraving requirement would be correct if you did actually make the weapon. Such as a home made supressor or reciever. I was given this by a large well known class 3 dealer. Not saying it's correct I'm just putting it out there for debate.

 

[raider1v1]

Re: NFA Process for an AR upper?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Helidriver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Comments? Many people around here don't engrave. Our dealers advise against it because is devalues the weapon. They consider you a modifier not the manufacturer of the firearm. Unless you machined the firearm from scratch you didn't make it. It was a firearm when you started. The engraving requirement would be correct if you did actually make the weapon. Such as a home made supressor or reciever. I was given this by a large well known class 3 dealer. Not saying it's correct I'm just putting it out there for debate.

</div></div>

thats what my trust attorney told me too, but since its just an ar lower that i was doing, i wasnt too concerned about it, and did it anyway to be on the safe side.

he also confirmed the distinction between being a "maker" (me) and a "manufacturer" who originally made the firearm.

the thing that made me decide to engrave it was the fact that i was filling out a form 1, for the making of a firearm.

 

[WileyG]

Re: NFA Process for an AR upper?

Follow up letter from BATFE dated Feb 26, 2006 that supercedes the Feb 21 letter posted above. It says that since you are modifying the original weapon into an SBR that you are responsible for engraving your info as shown on the Form 1 for SBRs, etc....scroll down thru the posts and you'll find the letter.


http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-nfa-talk/37062-nfa-apologizes-gives-verdict-sbr-markings.html

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/3192/atffinalsbrverdictsmall1qs.jpg

 

[fireguyty]

Re: NFA Process for an AR upper?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fireguyty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He is right except I have never heard that the upper's length on the Form 1 should be the shortest. I have only heard that what ever length/caliber you have on the Form has to be in the safe. The rest of the uppers don't matter in length or caliber.

I am in no way saying that I am right and he is wrong, but that is the way it was explained to me. Keep in mind that if you intend to get parts for SBR uppers that you are breaking the law if you don't have a way to legally assemble them.

Example: You have a normal 16" AR-15 rifle, along with a 9" AAC barrel, you would be illegal because you could assemble an illegal SBR. You can get away from this buy owning a stamped AR-15 pistol lower in you possession. That is what I did. I bought an AR pistol lower, form oned that, in the mean time got all the parts I intended to put together.

Good luck! 300 AAC shorty is fun.</div></div>

I talked to a guy that has a FFL SOT. He says that indeed, the shortest length needs to be on the Form 1. WileyC is right on this matter, apologies for wrong information.

 

[wakajawaka]

Re: NFA Process for an AR upper?

Well... Stating the shortest length barrel that you think you'll use on the form 1, may not really give you carte blanche.

In practice, you should put the actual length of barrel you intend to use. You may temporarally change barrel length but "ATF recommends written notification to the NFA Branch when a firearm’s configuration is permanently changed".

 

[raider1v1]

Re: NFA Process for an AR upper?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dead-bird</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well... Stating the shortest length barrel that you think you'll use on the form 1, may not really give you carte blanche.

In practice, you should put the actual length of barrel you intend to use. You may temporally change barrel length but "ATF recommends written notification to the NFA Branch when a firearm’s configuration is permanently changed".
</div></div>

this is exactly what i did vs putting 5" for the barrel length. as long as the caliber/length change is tool-less, its OK. i put the length that I would use most of the time or whats called the permanent one.

 

[fireguyty]

Re: NFA Process for an AR upper?

Well that certainly sounds right, and maybe where I got the first bit of info.

 

[317millhand]

Re: NFA Process for an AR upper?

You can ask 10 differnt ATF agents and SOT holders and get all differnt answers. and just because an SOT states something does not make it written law. Last phone call that I had with the NFA branch, I was told that you did not need to engrave your name on an AR lower if it already had manufacturer markings. I put together a krinkov with a nds receiver and the NDS information on the receiver was good enought. Form 1 got approved. And as long as you hang on to the upper that gives you the correct length and caliber, you can use whatever length upper or caliber you like. I advise anyone to call the NFA branch and ask these questions and not rely on forums to get the law. And the best thing to do if you are really worried is write a letter, get a written response back, and keep that letter with your form 1 as extra insurance.

 

[Crispytortilla]

Re: NFA Process for an AR upper?

My local dealer said that the length didnt matter after it was registered sbr i could slap whatever length upper i wanted on it. however I would also advise you to call the ATF!(and let us know what they say) Im currently running a 9" on a 11.5" Registered lower so....

 

[MaximumVelocity]

Re: NFA Process for an AR upper?

There are two ways to do the SBR. You can register the upper/barrel on a form 1 or you can register a lower receiver on a form 4. The latter will allow you to use any upper you want regardless of size and you do not have to engrave the barrel.

It's my understanding the form 1 route needs a size and also some engraving will be needed on the barrel. Example...If you are using a trust, I believe your trust name needs to be engraved on the barrel.

 

[m1garand30064]

Re: NFA Process for an AR upper?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MaximumVelocity</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are two ways to do the SBR. You can register the upper/barrel on a form 1 or you can register a lower receiver on a form 4. The latter will allow you to use any upper you want regardless of size and you do not have to engrave the barrel.

It's my understanding the form 1 route needs a size and also some engraving will be needed on the barrel. Example...If you are using a trust, I believe your trust name needs to be engraved on the barrel. </div></div>

Incorrect. Receiver only.

 

[wakajawaka]

Re: NFA Process for an AR upper?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 317millhand</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...Last phone call that I had with the NFA branch, I was told that you did not need to engrave your name on an AR lower if it already had manufacturer markings... </div></div>

This is only correct if the firearm was made by that manufacturer as a SBR.
If you modify the firearm then YOU are the maker and you'll need to mark the item with the following information...


"(i) The model, if such designation
has been made;
(ii) The caliber or gauge;
(iii) Your name (or recognized
abbreviation) and also,
when applicable, the name of
the foreign manufacturer or
maker;
(iv) In the case of a domestically
made firearm, the city
and State (or recognized abbreviation
thereof) where you
as the manufacturer maintain
your place of business, or
where you, as the maker, made
the firearm."

Just because you have received an approved form, may not guaurantee your compliance with the NFA.

 

[vinsonr]

Re: NFA Process for an AR upper?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MaximumVelocity</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are two ways to do the SBR. You can register the upper/barrel on a form 1 or you can register a lower receiver on a form 4. The latter will allow you to use any upper you want regardless of size and you do not have to engrave the barrel.

It's my understanding the form 1 route needs a size and also some engraving will be needed on the barrel. Example...If you are using a trust, I believe your trust name needs to be engraved on the barrel. </div></div>

This is definitely incorrect. No matter whether you intend to engrave your maker's mark on the upper/barrel or the lower you still submit a form 1 to put together an SBR. Only when transferring an existing NFA item such as a factory SBR, an SBR someone else put together and previously registered on a form 1, or a suppressor do you use a form 4.

Yes, you can engrave the barrel when doing a form 1, but that would reduce the utility of your SBR because the serial number would be on the lower and your engraving on the upper/barrel. This would effectively prevent you from using other short uppers since there is no engraving (or perhaps you could engrave them all). Rember that you can run any 16" or longer on a registered SBR effectively making it a Title 1 weapon for the time that it has that long upper.

If you believe that you must engrave then there's no reason not to do it on the lower. In that configuration then you can swap upper receivers or barrels at will (playing by the 'not permanent' ATF rules). My LMT SBR lower routinely gets use with a 10.5" MRP upper and a 12.5" Noveske Crusader.

Personally I think the whole engraving thing is silly and should be changed. You already have a serial number and manufacturer on the lower. No need for more identification. This is just old law being applied to a modular rifle that doesn't really make sense.

 

[MaximumVelocity]

Re: NFA Process for an AR upper?

Thanks for clearing that up as my understanding was off.

 

[redrocksmarc]

Re: NFA Process for an AR upper?

I have two SBR’s one on a form 4 and one on a form 1. I received the form 4 first and the dealer marked the Caliber on section 4-c as the one engraved on the lower and that was 223. Under 4-e and 4-f they are both marked N/A. They are both marked N/A as this was only a lower with no upper so there was no way to have a length of barrel or overall length. When I did my own on a form 1 I did the same thing and left the length with N/A. Both forms were approved with no revisions. They were not left blank they had N/A in them so that is all that is needed. As far as Caliber you can use any Caliber as long as there is no permanent modification to the change in caliber. This counts if you are using a drop on .22lr conversion bolt or a complete 9mm upper. If you are using a 300aac Blackout then you only need to change the barrel and use the existing bolt and magazines.

I run a LMT MRP upper on one SBR lower. I use .22lr, 5.56, 9mm, and 300aac Blackout. I have barrels from 5”, 10”, 10.5” and 18”. The BATF&E does not consider a longer barrel a change in status to the gun as long as it is not a permanent change. The lower is considered an SBR as long as you keep the barrel or other parts to make it an SBR.