I read/hear all about these "NFA trusts" is there any difference between this and normal trust? Can I set up a trust and purchase NFA items through it or does the trust have to be set up for NFA items specificaly/only?
thanks
thanks
Suppressors NFA trust?
- Thread starter 2ndamendfan
- Start date
Re: NFA trust?
They do not have to be set up ONLY for NFA items. You can be as creative as you like, within the limits of the law.
That said, it would be recommended to include specific clauses that address NFA ownership and the legalities surrounding such. This is why appropriate legal advice is recommended...to ensure that the trust is documented correctly to address your specific needs / interests.
They do not have to be set up ONLY for NFA items. You can be as creative as you like, within the limits of the law.
That said, it would be recommended to include specific clauses that address NFA ownership and the legalities surrounding such. This is why appropriate legal advice is recommended...to ensure that the trust is documented correctly to address your specific needs / interests.
Re: NFA trust?
a trust is simply a legal entity which can own property, while you technically can put NFA items in any trust, you shouldn't. an "nfa trust" has specific language, generally legal instructions on how to transfer the nfa item(s), additionally a seperate trust keeps your nfa purchases seperate from the rest of your estate, which could be a benefit if laws change at some point.
a trust is simply a legal entity which can own property, while you technically can put NFA items in any trust, you shouldn't. an "nfa trust" has specific language, generally legal instructions on how to transfer the nfa item(s), additionally a seperate trust keeps your nfa purchases seperate from the rest of your estate, which could be a benefit if laws change at some point.
Re: NFA trust?
A Revocable Living Trust from Quicken Willmaker will suit your needs. If you feel more comfortable, there are now attorneys that specialize in NFA-oriented trusts.
Personally, my trust was created 6 years ago with Quicken and I have had zero issues through many transfers.
A Revocable Living Trust from Quicken Willmaker will suit your needs. If you feel more comfortable, there are now attorneys that specialize in NFA-oriented trusts.
Personally, my trust was created 6 years ago with Quicken and I have had zero issues through many transfers.
Re: NFA trust?
What they said. Another advantage is that you can have additional people be able to use the NFA items. You can also change or remove people as you like. Careful on this though. Including a felon in your trust could end up bad for you.
What they said. Another advantage is that you can have additional people be able to use the NFA items. You can also change or remove people as you like. Careful on this though. Including a felon in your trust could end up bad for you.
Re: NFA trust?
I chose to spend some money and have lawyer set up an Nfa trust for me. It was worth the piece of mind.
I chose to spend some money and have lawyer set up an Nfa trust for me. It was worth the piece of mind.
Re: NFA trust?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SuppressorJunkie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How much is it usually? What if the nearest trust lawyer with experience is far away can this all be done over the phone and mailed to me? </div></div>
I've heard 250 at the cheap. but seen online quotes at 600.
Yes. I believe the attorney should reside in the same state as you though.
The trust papers themselves are not official until you and the named parties are together having it notirized. The trust is not recognized by the BATFE until they get a copy.
The attorney will likely email a PDF for you to print the trust packets, and charge you CC .
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SuppressorJunkie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How much is it usually? What if the nearest trust lawyer with experience is far away can this all be done over the phone and mailed to me? </div></div>
I've heard 250 at the cheap. but seen online quotes at 600.
Yes. I believe the attorney should reside in the same state as you though.
The trust papers themselves are not official until you and the named parties are together having it notirized. The trust is not recognized by the BATFE until they get a copy.
The attorney will likely email a PDF for you to print the trust packets, and charge you CC .
Re: NFA trust?
I found an ATF-reviewed and approved (meaning several folks have used it and gotten NFA items) trust on mdshooters and modified it to have NFA-specific language (referencing federal code, exclusions, etc.), worked no problem.
PM me, I'll be happy to send you a copy you can play cut and paste with.
I found an ATF-reviewed and approved (meaning several folks have used it and gotten NFA items) trust on mdshooters and modified it to have NFA-specific language (referencing federal code, exclusions, etc.), worked no problem.
PM me, I'll be happy to send you a copy you can play cut and paste with.
Re: NFA trust?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SuppressorJunkie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey thanks for the info...Im considering this route but it is very easy for me to get the sheriff of my county to sign off so Im not really sure if there is a benefit for me? </div></div>
The trust is much more flexible than the individual form 4.
The trust can change as your life changes. The individual form 4 cannot.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SuppressorJunkie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey thanks for the info...Im considering this route but it is very easy for me to get the sheriff of my county to sign off so Im not really sure if there is a benefit for me? </div></div>
The trust is much more flexible than the individual form 4.
The trust can change as your life changes. The individual form 4 cannot.
Re: NFA trust?
The detail that catches folks' attention is that let's say you're married. The suppressor is licensed to you. You can't even hand that to your wife to shoot without breaking federal law. Members of a trust can all use the property within the law. Hense why families are the most to use it for NFA items.
The detail that catches folks' attention is that let's say you're married. The suppressor is licensed to you. You can't even hand that to your wife to shoot without breaking federal law. Members of a trust can all use the property within the law. Hense why families are the most to use it for NFA items.
Re: NFA trust?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Savager</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The detail that catches folks' attention is that let's say you're married. The suppressor is licensed to you. You can't even hand that to your wife to shoot without breaking federal law. Members of a trust can all use the property within the law. Hense why families are the most to use it for NFA items. </div></div>
Having one NFA Item already but not through a trust I am 99% sure that is NOT true. It has been explained to me many times that someone else can use the NFA item as long as the owner is present. The owner must monitor/control it's use. If my wife took my NFA item, even without my knowledge I could get arrested for allowing her access it. She is not suppose to know the combination to our vault according to the ATF.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Savager</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The detail that catches folks' attention is that let's say you're married. The suppressor is licensed to you. You can't even hand that to your wife to shoot without breaking federal law. Members of a trust can all use the property within the law. Hense why families are the most to use it for NFA items. </div></div>
Having one NFA Item already but not through a trust I am 99% sure that is NOT true. It has been explained to me many times that someone else can use the NFA item as long as the owner is present. The owner must monitor/control it's use. If my wife took my NFA item, even without my knowledge I could get arrested for allowing her access it. She is not suppose to know the combination to our vault according to the ATF.
Re: NFA trust?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SuppressorJunkie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey thanks for the info...Im considering this route but it is very easy for me to get the sheriff of my county to sign off so Im not really sure if there is a benefit for me? </div></div>
What about the next sheriff that's elected? He might very well not be NFA friendly.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SuppressorJunkie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey thanks for the info...Im considering this route but it is very easy for me to get the sheriff of my county to sign off so Im not really sure if there is a benefit for me? </div></div>
What about the next sheriff that's elected? He might very well not be NFA friendly.
Re: NFA trust?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2ndamendfan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Savager</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The detail that catches folks' attention is that let's say you're married. The suppressor is licensed to you. You can't even hand that to your wife to shoot without breaking federal law. Members of a trust can all use the property within the law. Hense why families are the most to use it for NFA items. </div></div>
Having one NFA Item already but not through a trust I am 99% sure that is NOT true. It has been explained to me many times that someone else can use the NFA item as long as the owner is present. The owner must monitor/control it's use. If my wife took my NFA item, even without my knowledge I could get arrested for allowing her access it. She is not suppose to know the combination to our vault according to the ATF. </div></div>
I'll have to disagree with that one. Handing it to someone IS relinquishing control of the item. Seems pretty straight-forward legal-ese to me. It's YOURS, you are not to allow anyone to "control/possess/access" to the item. I don't see how you handing it to someone is "control".
Honestly, I'd love to know the LEGAL answer, not what your buddies told you. If you want to lose your shit then by all means do what you want with it. Recommending others just "take your advice" is pretty stupid in my mind. You don't have a Trust, are not a lawyer. But you're advising others about something your buddies told you. Please don't, that's how people get screwed up with all these laws in the first place. Some guy with zero actual experience comes into a conversation with his soapbox spouting rumors. Come on man, keep your brothers SAFE first, if you don't know say you don't know FOR SURE. For all we know you could be only a confiscation away from losing all your toys.
I'm not taking NOBODY'S word for this kind of thing. I'm currently reading my own state's laws on it now and god this is a complete waste of time TBH. Until I find out different nobody gets within 5 feet of my Class III stuff, not even the woman of my dreams. /sadface
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2ndamendfan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Savager</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The detail that catches folks' attention is that let's say you're married. The suppressor is licensed to you. You can't even hand that to your wife to shoot without breaking federal law. Members of a trust can all use the property within the law. Hense why families are the most to use it for NFA items. </div></div>
Having one NFA Item already but not through a trust I am 99% sure that is NOT true. It has been explained to me many times that someone else can use the NFA item as long as the owner is present. The owner must monitor/control it's use. If my wife took my NFA item, even without my knowledge I could get arrested for allowing her access it. She is not suppose to know the combination to our vault according to the ATF. </div></div>
I'll have to disagree with that one. Handing it to someone IS relinquishing control of the item. Seems pretty straight-forward legal-ese to me. It's YOURS, you are not to allow anyone to "control/possess/access" to the item. I don't see how you handing it to someone is "control".
Honestly, I'd love to know the LEGAL answer, not what your buddies told you. If you want to lose your shit then by all means do what you want with it. Recommending others just "take your advice" is pretty stupid in my mind. You don't have a Trust, are not a lawyer. But you're advising others about something your buddies told you. Please don't, that's how people get screwed up with all these laws in the first place. Some guy with zero actual experience comes into a conversation with his soapbox spouting rumors. Come on man, keep your brothers SAFE first, if you don't know say you don't know FOR SURE. For all we know you could be only a confiscation away from losing all your toys.
I'm not taking NOBODY'S word for this kind of thing. I'm currently reading my own state's laws on it now and god this is a complete waste of time TBH. Until I find out different nobody gets within 5 feet of my Class III stuff, not even the woman of my dreams. /sadface
Re: NFA trust?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Savager</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I'll have to disagree with that one. Handing it to someone IS relinquishing control of the item. Seems pretty straight-forward legal-ese to me. It's YOURS, you are not to allow anyone to "control/possess/access" to the item. I don't see how you handing it to someone is "control".
Honestly, I'd love to know the LEGAL answer, not what your buddies told you. If you want to lose your shit then by all means do what you want with it. Recommending others just "take your advice" is pretty stupid in my mind. You don't have a Trust, are not a lawyer. But you're advising others about something your buddies told you. Please don't, that's how people get screwed up with all these laws in the first place. Some guy with zero actual experience comes into a conversation with his soapbox spouting rumors. Come on man, keep your brothers SAFE first, if you don't know say you don't know FOR SURE. For all we know you could be only a confiscation away from losing all your toys.
I'm not taking NOBODY'S word for this kind of thing. I'm currently reading my own state's laws on it now and god this is a complete waste of time TBH. Until I find out different nobody gets within 5 feet of my Class III stuff, not even the woman of my dreams. /sadface </div></div>
You are correct, I do not have a trust. That is why I am asking about trusts. Wow you are a fucking genius. Also no I am not a lawyer. My "buddies" did not tell me shit. The ATF agent that I talked to while doing my paper work told me what I told you. And he had a great example "the machine gun shoot at Knob Creek". It isn't just the "owners" shooting the NFA stuff at Knob Creek. Even if the NFA item is owned by a trust or Corp it has to have a list of "trustees". You can't put the whole contry on the trust. Yet if you pay the owner will allow you "rent" his machine gun. Thus transfering control to you while the owner watches.
Seems the ATF is not as big of a prick as you are.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Savager</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I'll have to disagree with that one. Handing it to someone IS relinquishing control of the item. Seems pretty straight-forward legal-ese to me. It's YOURS, you are not to allow anyone to "control/possess/access" to the item. I don't see how you handing it to someone is "control".
Honestly, I'd love to know the LEGAL answer, not what your buddies told you. If you want to lose your shit then by all means do what you want with it. Recommending others just "take your advice" is pretty stupid in my mind. You don't have a Trust, are not a lawyer. But you're advising others about something your buddies told you. Please don't, that's how people get screwed up with all these laws in the first place. Some guy with zero actual experience comes into a conversation with his soapbox spouting rumors. Come on man, keep your brothers SAFE first, if you don't know say you don't know FOR SURE. For all we know you could be only a confiscation away from losing all your toys.
I'm not taking NOBODY'S word for this kind of thing. I'm currently reading my own state's laws on it now and god this is a complete waste of time TBH. Until I find out different nobody gets within 5 feet of my Class III stuff, not even the woman of my dreams. /sadface </div></div>
You are correct, I do not have a trust. That is why I am asking about trusts. Wow you are a fucking genius. Also no I am not a lawyer. My "buddies" did not tell me shit. The ATF agent that I talked to while doing my paper work told me what I told you. And he had a great example "the machine gun shoot at Knob Creek". It isn't just the "owners" shooting the NFA stuff at Knob Creek. Even if the NFA item is owned by a trust or Corp it has to have a list of "trustees". You can't put the whole contry on the trust. Yet if you pay the owner will allow you "rent" his machine gun. Thus transfering control to you while the owner watches.
Seems the ATF is not as big of a prick as you are.
Re: NFA trust?
It's one thing for something "good enough" to get the ATF to stamp off. Almost all NFA dealers I've dealt with have a boilerplate trust that will past the muster so they can sell their goods. The ATF isn't going to run your trust through their legal department's microscopes and see if it would stand up in court.
Having it stand up to legal scrutiny is another thing, especially if you're adding other assets that will be shared with others, temporarily shared with others, or allocated in the event of your passing. The cheapest I've seen is around $100 for a no-frills NFA-specific trust from a law firm. Typically it's $500-600 for something tailored specifically for your situation and includes the ability to sit down with them in the future and change out beneficiaries and other details.
Really...it is not that big an investment if you're going to put all your NFA items on it. Three NFA tax stamps already pays for a trust and a trust is that basket you're putting all your eggs in, so it would behoove folks to make sure their basket is sturdy. There are lawyers around that specifically do NFA trust work. I would do research on them and see who has a credible background, then talk to them. There are at least several at each gun show and $500 is a pretty small price to pay given all the federal legal nightmare that could occur should the freebie trust at the gun store not be good to go.
My situation? I got the freebie boilerplate trust at the gun store. It doesn't even let me add folks. I'm going to sit down with a NFA trust lawyer the next week or two, pay him the $500 and buy some peace of mind. An NFA trust is different from a revokable living trust or any other type of trust-like document because there are specific federal laws around NFA items, so Quicken or some other program isn't going to cover all your bases.
It's one thing for something "good enough" to get the ATF to stamp off. Almost all NFA dealers I've dealt with have a boilerplate trust that will past the muster so they can sell their goods. The ATF isn't going to run your trust through their legal department's microscopes and see if it would stand up in court.
Having it stand up to legal scrutiny is another thing, especially if you're adding other assets that will be shared with others, temporarily shared with others, or allocated in the event of your passing. The cheapest I've seen is around $100 for a no-frills NFA-specific trust from a law firm. Typically it's $500-600 for something tailored specifically for your situation and includes the ability to sit down with them in the future and change out beneficiaries and other details.
Really...it is not that big an investment if you're going to put all your NFA items on it. Three NFA tax stamps already pays for a trust and a trust is that basket you're putting all your eggs in, so it would behoove folks to make sure their basket is sturdy. There are lawyers around that specifically do NFA trust work. I would do research on them and see who has a credible background, then talk to them. There are at least several at each gun show and $500 is a pretty small price to pay given all the federal legal nightmare that could occur should the freebie trust at the gun store not be good to go.
My situation? I got the freebie boilerplate trust at the gun store. It doesn't even let me add folks. I'm going to sit down with a NFA trust lawyer the next week or two, pay him the $500 and buy some peace of mind. An NFA trust is different from a revokable living trust or any other type of trust-like document because there are specific federal laws around NFA items, so Quicken or some other program isn't going to cover all your bases.
Re: NFA trust?
The attorney I'm using is a big gun guy and his practice includes 23 years of "estate & gift tax planning, estate & gift tax audits, asset protection, business planning and succession, advanced estate and charitable planning"
This is an example of what a trust can do for you, according to information on one of the NFA trusts he offers:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A...firearms trust is also designed to allow for multiple users of the items held by the trust. This is in direct contrast to a standard/generic revocable living trust. The ...trust specifically allows for any named trustee, successor trustee, and any named beneficiary to have the ability to use the trust assets. There is even a provision that will deem any person that you are shooting with a beneficiary of the trust. The trust also allows for the formal appointment of beneficiaries for a limited duration with a set expiration date. An “automatic beneficiary” and a “limited duration beneficiary” have no rights for inheritance unless they are also listed as a “remainder beneficiary.”
A...firearms trust also has many standard trust features such as avoiding the probate process for your firearms and the public record that it would create. There is also the ability to create and update a tangible personal property memorandum which grants different people specific items of a collection.
...is designed for the firearms collector who understands the value of proper planning when dealing with NFA items (suppressors, etc.) as well as non-NFA items (regular rifles pistols and shotguns). Our trust system is designed to protect everyone that may come in contact with the collection and to avoid the likelihood of an “accidental felony”.
... is designed to own, allow sharing, and eventually distribute your firearms whether NFA or conventional firearms. The trust contains benefits provisions to protect those you engage in firearms to ensure that both friends and family members can be covered and protected by the terms of the trust. A personal property memorandum is incorporated which allows the client to make a list giving specific firearms to specific individuals. This list can be updated without attorney involvement at any time for any reason. And, items not specifically given to someone are provided for by percentage bequests to one or more persons or even a charity, so that the entire collection is properly distributed.
When it eventually comes time for a successor trustee to take over and manage the collection, the trust system provides guidance in plain language meant to help anyone, not just somebody who knows guns. The trust strips away many powers which are included in traditional or generic revocable living trusts that would allow a trustee to commit accidental felonies. Further, the trust provides detailed guidance on how both NFA and non-NFA items must be transferred.
This trust is an excellent choice for the majority of our clients. It provides unparalleled and specific protection for firearms when compared to any generic revocable living trust; in fact it has many features unknown to other firearms-specific trusts.</div></div>
The attorney I'm using is a big gun guy and his practice includes 23 years of "estate & gift tax planning, estate & gift tax audits, asset protection, business planning and succession, advanced estate and charitable planning"
This is an example of what a trust can do for you, according to information on one of the NFA trusts he offers:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A...firearms trust is also designed to allow for multiple users of the items held by the trust. This is in direct contrast to a standard/generic revocable living trust. The ...trust specifically allows for any named trustee, successor trustee, and any named beneficiary to have the ability to use the trust assets. There is even a provision that will deem any person that you are shooting with a beneficiary of the trust. The trust also allows for the formal appointment of beneficiaries for a limited duration with a set expiration date. An “automatic beneficiary” and a “limited duration beneficiary” have no rights for inheritance unless they are also listed as a “remainder beneficiary.”
A...firearms trust also has many standard trust features such as avoiding the probate process for your firearms and the public record that it would create. There is also the ability to create and update a tangible personal property memorandum which grants different people specific items of a collection.
...is designed for the firearms collector who understands the value of proper planning when dealing with NFA items (suppressors, etc.) as well as non-NFA items (regular rifles pistols and shotguns). Our trust system is designed to protect everyone that may come in contact with the collection and to avoid the likelihood of an “accidental felony”.
... is designed to own, allow sharing, and eventually distribute your firearms whether NFA or conventional firearms. The trust contains benefits provisions to protect those you engage in firearms to ensure that both friends and family members can be covered and protected by the terms of the trust. A personal property memorandum is incorporated which allows the client to make a list giving specific firearms to specific individuals. This list can be updated without attorney involvement at any time for any reason. And, items not specifically given to someone are provided for by percentage bequests to one or more persons or even a charity, so that the entire collection is properly distributed.
When it eventually comes time for a successor trustee to take over and manage the collection, the trust system provides guidance in plain language meant to help anyone, not just somebody who knows guns. The trust strips away many powers which are included in traditional or generic revocable living trusts that would allow a trustee to commit accidental felonies. Further, the trust provides detailed guidance on how both NFA and non-NFA items must be transferred.
This trust is an excellent choice for the majority of our clients. It provides unparalleled and specific protection for firearms when compared to any generic revocable living trust; in fact it has many features unknown to other firearms-specific trusts.</div></div>
Re: NFA trust?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2ndamendfan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2ndamendfan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Savager said:Seems the ATF is not as big of a prick as you are. </div></div>
Look sunshine, I'm not looking to have a dick-size contest with you in a public forum. All I'm saying is that you're talking third person and I'm looking for a quote from the law. My advice to folks don't get them in prison if I'm wrong. Your advice is a bit different. I'm learning here too man, but since I don't run through the bushes in some clothes looking like a forest tree or have even attended a shooting match of any kind I really don't have the all-glorious experience to judge things. What I see is a pretty hefty price to pay for being wrong.
If you're right then more power to you and I'm actually HAPPY about it. I'm not trying to 'win' anything here man. I'm looking for LAW, not what somebody told you. I don't care if they were your mom or God, it's still 3rd-party information. I'm asking for clarity, not story-telling time.
**added**
I'm really not trying to be harsh to you or anybody else. I'm trying to be VERY particular in clarifying a very important concern we ALL have in the matter. Can anyone clarify with something their lawyer said in his Trust relating to the subject chime in? I know I can print out of Quicken and it might get approved. That is FAR from being legal or safe by any stretch of the imagination. I want to be POSITIVE, not "pretty sure" ya know.
Re: NFA trust?
I don't know if I'd take what an ATF agent says as gospel any more than assuming all cops know the law...because many cops aren't that legally knowledgeable and will make honest mistakes when giving legal advice. Many folks would rather see the ATF write a nice letter back clarifying issues or saying what is okay or not...it holds more value than what a field agent tells you.
I don't know if I'd take what an ATF agent says as gospel any more than assuming all cops know the law...because many cops aren't that legally knowledgeable and will make honest mistakes when giving legal advice. Many folks would rather see the ATF write a nice letter back clarifying issues or saying what is okay or not...it holds more value than what a field agent tells you.
Re: NFA trust?
OK standing down myself. You are right that it is 3rd hand info I am passing along. And I would urge everyone to study the law as best as they can. Each state can be different. You are also correct in that reading law is a pain in the ass.
I didn't want to come across as giving legal advise, just the way I understand it to be. You may interpret the law different.
OK standing down myself. You are right that it is 3rd hand info I am passing along. And I would urge everyone to study the law as best as they can. Each state can be different. You are also correct in that reading law is a pain in the ass.
I didn't want to come across as giving legal advise, just the way I understand it to be. You may interpret the law different.
Re: NFA trust?
Oh I 100% agree with that. A letter I think would give you something to stand on, but would you get the same letter everytime. A agent is answering the letters also. Also we are getting way off course I think. Back to info on trusts if possible.
Oh I 100% agree with that. A letter I think would give you something to stand on, but would you get the same letter everytime. A agent is answering the letters also. Also we are getting way off course I think. Back to info on trusts if possible.
Re: NFA trust?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2ndamendfan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK standing down myself. You are right that it is 3rd hand info I am passing along. And I would urge everyone to study the law as best as they can. Each state can be different. You are also correct in that reading law is a pain in the ass.
I didn't want to come across as giving legal advise, just the way I understand it to be. You may interpret the law different. </div></div>
^^^Real Man^^^
/bow
Happy to hear all that they said man. Interested as hell to be honest. Just presenting it for what it is and isn't you know.
Sorry if I sounded like a jerk. It's genetic and the pills they offered me for it sounded worse than the fucking symptoms.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2ndamendfan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK standing down myself. You are right that it is 3rd hand info I am passing along. And I would urge everyone to study the law as best as they can. Each state can be different. You are also correct in that reading law is a pain in the ass.
I didn't want to come across as giving legal advise, just the way I understand it to be. You may interpret the law different. </div></div>
^^^Real Man^^^
/bow
Happy to hear all that they said man. Interested as hell to be honest. Just presenting it for what it is and isn't you know.
Sorry if I sounded like a jerk. It's genetic and the pills they offered me for it sounded worse than the fucking symptoms.
Re: NFA trust?
Thanks, key board commando-ing can get out off hand. The "look sunshine" made me laugh. One problem is the next ATF director could interpret the law as you do. Which is not wrong by the way, and we would all be screwed (without a trust, that is why i am looking into it). Laws are suppose to be "rock solid" but always seems everyone is "interpreting" them different. IRS is much the same way.
Also wanted to add it takes two to tango so obviously I was out of line also.
Thanks, key board commando-ing can get out off hand. The "look sunshine" made me laugh. One problem is the next ATF director could interpret the law as you do. Which is not wrong by the way, and we would all be screwed (without a trust, that is why i am looking into it). Laws are suppose to be "rock solid" but always seems everyone is "interpreting" them different. IRS is much the same way.
Also wanted to add it takes two to tango so obviously I was out of line also.
Re: NFA trust?
I guess if law was absolute they wouldn't have to "practice" at it all the time.
Decided to just do normal Form-4. I don't see any reason for it to be out of our sight for any reason anyway. I've got a few copies of things but none of them really addressed all of my concerns. If this Trust mess ever gets safer to get into I'll be happy to revisit it sometime down the road. With ordering a new AAC Cyclone this week I figure the 'bug' might get the best of me in the end but having one item outside of something we may write up later isn't so bad a deal. /shrug
Thanks for everything guys, really. If anybody would like a copy of the stuff I did find then you're more than welcome to it. I don't stand behind ANY of it! PERIOD. But I do think it's a great platform to get a good idea of what you're doing. The NFA-specific language is a hurdle you'll still have to face.
Best of luck all.
I guess if law was absolute they wouldn't have to "practice" at it all the time.
Decided to just do normal Form-4. I don't see any reason for it to be out of our sight for any reason anyway. I've got a few copies of things but none of them really addressed all of my concerns. If this Trust mess ever gets safer to get into I'll be happy to revisit it sometime down the road. With ordering a new AAC Cyclone this week I figure the 'bug' might get the best of me in the end but having one item outside of something we may write up later isn't so bad a deal. /shrug
Thanks for everything guys, really. If anybody would like a copy of the stuff I did find then you're more than welcome to it. I don't stand behind ANY of it! PERIOD. But I do think it's a great platform to get a good idea of what you're doing. The NFA-specific language is a hurdle you'll still have to face.
Best of luck all.
Re: NFA trust?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SuppressorJunkie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey thanks for the info...Im considering this route but it is very easy for me to get the sheriff of my county to sign off so Im not really sure if there is a benefit for me? </div></div> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SuppressorJunkie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey thanks for the info...Im considering this route but it is very easy for me to get the sheriff of my county to sign off so Im not really sure if there is a benefit for me? </div></div>
No photos. No fingerprints. No sign off. Unless your state requires it, why bother?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SuppressorJunkie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey thanks for the info...Im considering this route but it is very easy for me to get the sheriff of my county to sign off so Im not really sure if there is a benefit for me? </div></div> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SuppressorJunkie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey thanks for the info...Im considering this route but it is very easy for me to get the sheriff of my county to sign off so Im not really sure if there is a benefit for me? </div></div>
No photos. No fingerprints. No sign off. Unless your state requires it, why bother?
Re: NFA trust?
There's a solution to all of this. Pony up the bucks and get one drafted, simple, done, piece of mind. I can tell you that the verbage, as prepared by Walker, Rice, and Wisdom (Houston), is strong. Of course, this is state specific...
There's a solution to all of this. Pony up the bucks and get one drafted, simple, done, piece of mind. I can tell you that the verbage, as prepared by Walker, Rice, and Wisdom (Houston), is strong. Of course, this is state specific...
Re: NFA trust?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Savager</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2ndamendfan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Savager</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The detail that catches folks' attention is that let's say you're married. The suppressor is licensed to you. You can't even hand that to your wife to shoot without breaking federal law. Members of a trust can all use the property within the law. Hense why families are the most to use it for NFA items. </div></div>
Having one NFA Item already but not through a trust I am 99% sure that is NOT true. It has been explained to me many times that someone else can use the NFA item as long as the owner is present. The owner must monitor/control it's use. If my wife took my NFA item, even without my knowledge I could get arrested for allowing her access it. She is not suppose to know the combination to our vault according to the ATF. </div></div>
I'll have to disagree with that one. Handing it to someone IS relinquishing control of the item. Seems pretty straight-forward legal-ese to me. It's YOURS, you are not to allow anyone to "control/possess/access" to the item. I don't see how you handing it to someone is "control".
Honestly, I'd love to know the LEGAL answer, not what your buddies told you. If you want to lose your shit then by all means do what you want with it. Recommending others just "take your advice" is pretty stupid in my mind. You don't have a Trust, are not a lawyer. But you're advising others about something your buddies told you. Please don't, that's how people get screwed up with all these laws in the first place. Some guy with zero actual experience comes into a conversation with his soapbox spouting rumors. Come on man, keep your brothers SAFE first, if you don't know say you don't know FOR SURE. For all we know you could be only a confiscation away from losing all your toys.
I'm not taking NOBODY'S word for this kind of thing. I'm currently reading my own state's laws on it now and god this is a complete waste of time TBH. Until I find out different nobody gets within 5 feet of my Class III stuff, not even the woman of my dreams. /sadface </div></div>
i can help on this. the attorney who did my NFA trust specifically brought this up. one of the guys who he did a trust for had this happen. long story short, he left the house the suppressor was out in the garage, and for an un-related issue the police stopped by the house (a call in the neighborhood). they saw this and asked who owned that and the wife said "my husband". since he wasn't there, she was in constructive possession of an unsecured item. when the husband showed up he was able to smooth things over, but the next day the wife was added to the list.
while the police were they they called the BATFE and did in fact confirm that unless you are specifically named in the trust or on the stamp, you cannot posses the item.
The BATFE also verified that if you needed to have an NFA item stored somewhere that you cannot be, it needs to be in a secured (locked) location. This is to cover if you needed to leave it at someones house.
this was in KS if that makes a difference. my trust cost $375.
I added my future wife, and two friends who i trust to my NFA trust. This will leave me with plenty of options for storage/use/whatever.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Savager</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2ndamendfan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Savager</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The detail that catches folks' attention is that let's say you're married. The suppressor is licensed to you. You can't even hand that to your wife to shoot without breaking federal law. Members of a trust can all use the property within the law. Hense why families are the most to use it for NFA items. </div></div>
Having one NFA Item already but not through a trust I am 99% sure that is NOT true. It has been explained to me many times that someone else can use the NFA item as long as the owner is present. The owner must monitor/control it's use. If my wife took my NFA item, even without my knowledge I could get arrested for allowing her access it. She is not suppose to know the combination to our vault according to the ATF. </div></div>
I'll have to disagree with that one. Handing it to someone IS relinquishing control of the item. Seems pretty straight-forward legal-ese to me. It's YOURS, you are not to allow anyone to "control/possess/access" to the item. I don't see how you handing it to someone is "control".
Honestly, I'd love to know the LEGAL answer, not what your buddies told you. If you want to lose your shit then by all means do what you want with it. Recommending others just "take your advice" is pretty stupid in my mind. You don't have a Trust, are not a lawyer. But you're advising others about something your buddies told you. Please don't, that's how people get screwed up with all these laws in the first place. Some guy with zero actual experience comes into a conversation with his soapbox spouting rumors. Come on man, keep your brothers SAFE first, if you don't know say you don't know FOR SURE. For all we know you could be only a confiscation away from losing all your toys.
I'm not taking NOBODY'S word for this kind of thing. I'm currently reading my own state's laws on it now and god this is a complete waste of time TBH. Until I find out different nobody gets within 5 feet of my Class III stuff, not even the woman of my dreams. /sadface </div></div>
i can help on this. the attorney who did my NFA trust specifically brought this up. one of the guys who he did a trust for had this happen. long story short, he left the house the suppressor was out in the garage, and for an un-related issue the police stopped by the house (a call in the neighborhood). they saw this and asked who owned that and the wife said "my husband". since he wasn't there, she was in constructive possession of an unsecured item. when the husband showed up he was able to smooth things over, but the next day the wife was added to the list.
while the police were they they called the BATFE and did in fact confirm that unless you are specifically named in the trust or on the stamp, you cannot posses the item.
The BATFE also verified that if you needed to have an NFA item stored somewhere that you cannot be, it needs to be in a secured (locked) location. This is to cover if you needed to leave it at someones house.
this was in KS if that makes a difference. my trust cost $375.
I added my future wife, and two friends who i trust to my NFA trust. This will leave me with plenty of options for storage/use/whatever.
Re: NFA trust?
I put in an order for the AAC Cyclone today with the Hide group buy. When calling the local shop to have it shipped to he mentioned that there was a guy who helps set these up. I put in a call to him but he's out of town on a case so I'll try again tomorrow. Either way, the suppressor will be on the way here as soon as the Form 3 clears. The place doesn't have a range though so no playing with it for 6 more months. /sadface
I put in an order for the AAC Cyclone today with the Hide group buy. When calling the local shop to have it shipped to he mentioned that there was a guy who helps set these up. I put in a call to him but he's out of town on a case so I'll try again tomorrow. Either way, the suppressor will be on the way here as soon as the Form 3 clears.
Re: NFA trust?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cesiumsponge</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't know if I'd take what an ATF agent says as gospel any more than assuming all cops know the law...because many cops aren't that legally knowledgeable and will make honest mistakes when giving legal advice. Many folks would rather see the ATF write a nice letter back clarifying issues or saying what is okay or not...it holds more value than what a field agent tells you. </div></div>
I wouldn't trust the people who came up with this to be sensible about anything: ATF classifies a shoestring as a machinegun
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cesiumsponge</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't know if I'd take what an ATF agent says as gospel any more than assuming all cops know the law...because many cops aren't that legally knowledgeable and will make honest mistakes when giving legal advice. Many folks would rather see the ATF write a nice letter back clarifying issues or saying what is okay or not...it holds more value than what a field agent tells you. </div></div>
I wouldn't trust the people who came up with this to be sensible about anything: ATF classifies a shoestring as a machinegun
Re: NFA trust?
linked file is here: http://marylandshooter.com/ar15/trust/trust.asp
extra verbiage I inserted is this:
I. Trustee's Duty to Inform.
Each Trustee has a duty to inform all current trustees, Settlors, Beneficiaries, and the ATF of any ineligibility under the National Firearms Act which may arise while serving as a trustee. If any trustee becomes a prohibited person as defined under ATF regulation or Maryland law, such trustee shall immediately resign."
or this:
13. The power to buy, sell, manufacture, or use (even if such use diminishes the
value of the manufactured item,) or register and hold, or otherwise possess, any
property which is permitted by the National Firearms Act (i.e. Title II firearms,
including, but not limited to short barreled rifles, machine guns, and silencers) and
applicable state law, and when transferring or registering such property to make
proper application as required by Section 5812 of the National Firearms Act and
applicable state law, if any. When using a Form 1 for manufacturing, the full name of the trust must be engraved and no abbreviations may be used.
Read through the linked document and compare. You have to do quite a bit of editing to tailor it to your state laws. I'm a doctor. not a lawyer, but it's pretty easy (like a caveman lawyer could do it) and ATF approved it many times over.
Have fun.
Norm
linked file is here: http://marylandshooter.com/ar15/trust/trust.asp
extra verbiage I inserted is this:
I. Trustee's Duty to Inform.
Each Trustee has a duty to inform all current trustees, Settlors, Beneficiaries, and the ATF of any ineligibility under the National Firearms Act which may arise while serving as a trustee. If any trustee becomes a prohibited person as defined under ATF regulation or Maryland law, such trustee shall immediately resign."
or this:
13. The power to buy, sell, manufacture, or use (even if such use diminishes the
value of the manufactured item,) or register and hold, or otherwise possess, any
property which is permitted by the National Firearms Act (i.e. Title II firearms,
including, but not limited to short barreled rifles, machine guns, and silencers) and
applicable state law, and when transferring or registering such property to make
proper application as required by Section 5812 of the National Firearms Act and
applicable state law, if any. When using a Form 1 for manufacturing, the full name of the trust must be engraved and no abbreviations may be used.
Read through the linked document and compare. You have to do quite a bit of editing to tailor it to your state laws. I'm a doctor. not a lawyer, but it's pretty easy (like a caveman lawyer could do it) and ATF approved it many times over.
Have fun.
Norm
