S&B ?
Leup
USO?
and Why
Leup
USO?
and Why
Rifle Scopes OK here goes if one scope wich one??
Re: OK here goes if one scope wich one??
As long as repairs go to Germany, I can't see myself entertaining an S&B, even if I could afford one.
When I have that much tied up in a scope, I can't do without it for months on end should it break.
As long as repairs go to Germany, I can't see myself entertaining an S&B, even if I could afford one.
When I have that much tied up in a scope, I can't do without it for months on end should it break.
Re: OK here goes if one scope wich one??
USO, The are here, they support all the matches, they have great CS, and it's like Burger KIng. Order it the way you want it.
And I have S&B and USO.
USO, The are here, they support all the matches, they have great CS, and it's like Burger KIng. Order it the way you want it.
And I have S&B and USO.
Re: OK here goes if one scope wich one??
Why not include Premier Reticles and Nightforce in the list too? Both companies offer optics with similar features compared to scopes from the companies you listed and at similar prices. Additionally their manufacturing and repair centers are here in the states and they generally have better customer service than two out of the three companies you listed.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rijndael</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As long as repairs go to Germany, I can't see myself entertaining an S&B, even if I could afford one.
When I have that much tied up in a scope, I can't do without it for months on end should it break. </div></div>
+1 This your scope is in Germany but we don't know when it'll be back BS is getting old.
Why not include Premier Reticles and Nightforce in the list too? Both companies offer optics with similar features compared to scopes from the companies you listed and at similar prices. Additionally their manufacturing and repair centers are here in the states and they generally have better customer service than two out of the three companies you listed.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rijndael</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As long as repairs go to Germany, I can't see myself entertaining an S&B, even if I could afford one.
When I have that much tied up in a scope, I can't do without it for months on end should it break. </div></div>
+1 This your scope is in Germany but we don't know when it'll be back BS is getting old.
Re: OK here goes if one scope wich one??
I would say my most versital scope would be my USO SN3 1.8x10. It would work well on a bolt gun,Ar,or M1A.
I would say my most versital scope would be my USO SN3 1.8x10. It would work well on a bolt gun,Ar,or M1A.
Re: OK here goes if one scope wich one??
I asked myself that question. the answer was a PR heritage
I asked myself that question. the answer was a PR heritage
Re: OK here goes if one scope wich one??
savvy what wins matches....and who supports what we do here by ALWAYS contributing to the booty......
savvy what wins matches....and who supports what we do here by ALWAYS contributing to the booty......
Re: OK here goes if one scope wich one??
You wont go wrong with any of them. The points about CS are important. I have used the CS from USO and Premier. I can vouch that both are top notch. The same goes for Leupy.
I have never owned an S&B, so I have one on the way. I have always heard that S&B is iffy when it comes to CS, so I hope I dont need to use it.
You wont go wrong with any of them. The points about CS are important. I have used the CS from USO and Premier. I can vouch that both are top notch. The same goes for Leupy.
I have never owned an S&B, so I have one on the way. I have always heard that S&B is iffy when it comes to CS, so I hope I dont need to use it.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: OK here goes if one scope wich one??
Im going NF, if I have to choose one scope. Great glass. Indestructible, or darn close. And, half the price of those others.
S&B may be better scopes, but are they TWICE as good as a NF, to command TWICE the price? No.
Im going NF, if I have to choose one scope. Great glass. Indestructible, or darn close. And, half the price of those others.
S&B may be better scopes, but are they TWICE as good as a NF, to command TWICE the price? No.
Re: OK here goes if one scope wich one??
Apples to apples; although more expensive, S&B's are not 2X the $.
Apples to apples; although more expensive, S&B's are not 2X the $.
Re: OK here goes if one scope wich one??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shaggyback</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Im going NF, if I have to choose one scope. Great glass. Indestructible, or darn close. And, half the price of those others.
S&B may be better scopes, but are they TWICE as good as a NF, to command TWICE the price? No. </div></div>
The F1 NF's are well over $2K, arent they?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shaggyback</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Im going NF, if I have to choose one scope. Great glass. Indestructible, or darn close. And, half the price of those others.
S&B may be better scopes, but are they TWICE as good as a NF, to command TWICE the price? No. </div></div>
The F1 NF's are well over $2K, arent they?
Re: OK here goes if one scope wich one??
For my money, and still with everything else out there, as of today, the 4-16x42 or 3-12x50 SB is still the best all-around tactical scope.
Premier is coming up very strong, has the advantage of being made here, and just might top the list very soon, but it isn't quite 'there yet' as a whole package.
NF is the best value by far, and probably the most durable, but not the best all-around.
I have seen new USO's (compared to the 'old' ones) that have had tracking issues, reticle issues, and durability issues. But, then, I've also seen a lot of USO's. Otherwise, they are great - as is their customer service. USO stands behind its product and will fix anything wrong, so I wouldn't hesitate to buy one. I'm not trashing them, just being truthful - and I have a new one on order.
Today, forget Leupold.
For my money, and still with everything else out there, as of today, the 4-16x42 or 3-12x50 SB is still the best all-around tactical scope.
Premier is coming up very strong, has the advantage of being made here, and just might top the list very soon, but it isn't quite 'there yet' as a whole package.
NF is the best value by far, and probably the most durable, but not the best all-around.
I have seen new USO's (compared to the 'old' ones) that have had tracking issues, reticle issues, and durability issues. But, then, I've also seen a lot of USO's. Otherwise, they are great - as is their customer service. USO stands behind its product and will fix anything wrong, so I wouldn't hesitate to buy one. I'm not trashing them, just being truthful - and I have a new one on order.
Today, forget Leupold.
Re: OK here goes if one scope wich one??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hydro556</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The F1 NF's are well over $2K, arent they?</div></div>
$2290 street price and that includes rings and a sunshade along with the standard matching mil/mil, illuminated reticle, and zero stop. Just got my second one zeroed the other day and love it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hydro556</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The F1 NF's are well over $2K, arent they?</div></div>
$2290 street price and that includes rings and a sunshade along with the standard matching mil/mil, illuminated reticle, and zero stop. Just got my second one zeroed the other day and love it.
Re: OK here goes if one scope wich one??
S&B customer service is second to none! I sent my scope in for service and Yes it took 8 weeks but they sent a brand new one with BO rings from New Hampshire within days to use while my scope was getting repaired. No complaints here about S&B!!!!
S&B customer service is second to none! I sent my scope in for service and Yes it took 8 weeks but they sent a brand new one with BO rings from New Hampshire within days to use while my scope was getting repaired. No complaints here about S&B!!!!
Re: OK here goes if one scope wich one??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For my money, and still with everything else out there, as of today, the 4-16x42 or 3-12x50 SB is still the best all-around tactical scope.
Premier is coming up very strong, has the advantage of being made here, and just might top the list very soon, but it isn't quite 'there yet' as a whole package.
NF is the best value by far, and probably the most durable, but not the best all-around.
I have seen new USO's (compared to the 'old' ones) that have had tracking issues, reticle issues, and durability issues. But, then, I've also seen a lot of USO's. Otherwise, they are great - as is their customer service. USO stands behind its product and will fix anything wrong, so I wouldn't hesitate to buy one. I'm not trashing them, just being truthful - and I have an even newer one on order.
Today, forget Leupold. </div></div>
I have heard a lot of guys bashing Leupy lately. I am not ready to write them off. I have had a bunch of them and zero issues. Their CS is great. Something that has to be remembered when you hear a negative comment about Leupold is the fact that there are so many out there. I dont have any way to confirm how many, but the number of Leupolds vs the higher end glass is disproportionate, so the number of problems is going to be higher as well.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For my money, and still with everything else out there, as of today, the 4-16x42 or 3-12x50 SB is still the best all-around tactical scope.
Premier is coming up very strong, has the advantage of being made here, and just might top the list very soon, but it isn't quite 'there yet' as a whole package.
NF is the best value by far, and probably the most durable, but not the best all-around.
I have seen new USO's (compared to the 'old' ones) that have had tracking issues, reticle issues, and durability issues. But, then, I've also seen a lot of USO's. Otherwise, they are great - as is their customer service. USO stands behind its product and will fix anything wrong, so I wouldn't hesitate to buy one. I'm not trashing them, just being truthful - and I have an even newer one on order.
Today, forget Leupold. </div></div>
I have heard a lot of guys bashing Leupy lately. I am not ready to write them off. I have had a bunch of them and zero issues. Their CS is great. Something that has to be remembered when you hear a negative comment about Leupold is the fact that there are so many out there. I dont have any way to confirm how many, but the number of Leupolds vs the higher end glass is disproportionate, so the number of problems is going to be higher as well.
Re: OK here goes if one scope wich one??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Garcia</div><div class="ubbcode-body">S&B customer service is second to none! I sent my scope in for service and Yes it took 8 weeks but they sent a brand new one with BO rings from New Hampshire within days to use while my scope was getting repaired. No complaints here about S&B!!!! </div></div>
Thats good to hear.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Garcia</div><div class="ubbcode-body">S&B customer service is second to none! I sent my scope in for service and Yes it took 8 weeks but they sent a brand new one with BO rings from New Hampshire within days to use while my scope was getting repaired. No complaints here about S&B!!!! </div></div>
Thats good to hear.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: OK here goes if one scope wich one??
Twice the price of my $1475 (new-shipped) 5.5-22x56.
And, as I said, NOT twice the scope for twice the price.
Twice the price of my $1475 (new-shipped) 5.5-22x56.
And, as I said, NOT twice the scope for twice the price.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: OK here goes if one scope wich one??
See below.
See below.
Re: OK here goes if one scope wich one??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shaggyback</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As close to "apples to apples" as I can find, and yes, twice the fuckin price:
http://www.swfa.com/pc-2510-284-schmidt-bender-5-25x56-police-marksman-lp-34mm-riflescope.aspx
I'll even go lower with a 4-16x50, still over twice the price:
http://www.swfa.com/pc-2507-284-schmidt-bender-4-16x50-police-marksman-lp-34mm-riflescope.aspx
</div></div>
Twice the price of what? Not twice the price of NF's top of the line FFP optic. Not even close.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shaggyback</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As close to "apples to apples" as I can find, and yes, twice the fuckin price:
http://www.swfa.com/pc-2510-284-schmidt-bender-5-25x56-police-marksman-lp-34mm-riflescope.aspx
I'll even go lower with a 4-16x50, still over twice the price:
http://www.swfa.com/pc-2507-284-schmidt-bender-4-16x50-police-marksman-lp-34mm-riflescope.aspx
</div></div>
Twice the price of what? Not twice the price of NF's top of the line FFP optic. Not even close.
Re: OK here goes if one scope wich one??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shaggyback</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Twice the price of my $1475 (new-shipped) 5.5-22x56.
And, as I said, NOT twice the scope for twice the price. </div></div>
Where did you find a nightforce that cheap? The cheapest I found one new was 1632.00.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shaggyback</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Twice the price of my $1475 (new-shipped) 5.5-22x56.
And, as I said, NOT twice the scope for twice the price. </div></div>
Where did you find a nightforce that cheap? The cheapest I found one new was 1632.00.
Re: OK here goes if one scope wich one??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mooreguns</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shaggyback</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Twice the price of my $1475 (new-shipped) 5.5-22x56.
And, as I said, NOT twice the scope for twice the price. </div></div>
Where did you find a nightforce that cheap? The cheapest I found one new was 1632.00.
</div></div>
The older NFs were all priced around that. Just a bit more than a MKIV. The new F1's are right there with USO and Premier, but still about $6-700 cheaper than a PMII
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mooreguns</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shaggyback</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Twice the price of my $1475 (new-shipped) 5.5-22x56.
And, as I said, NOT twice the scope for twice the price. </div></div>
Where did you find a nightforce that cheap? The cheapest I found one new was 1632.00.
</div></div>
The older NFs were all priced around that. Just a bit more than a MKIV. The new F1's are right there with USO and Premier, but still about $6-700 cheaper than a PMII
Re: OK here goes if one scope wich one??
Hydro, that's excatly what Jacob and Frank have said: They've seen many Leupolds fail, but they've also seen more Leupolds than any other make.
I am not a fan of the Leupold 'lifetime' warranty. Warranties exist to protect the vendor, not the consumer. The Leupold fix-it-or-replace-it warranty is an alternative to quality control. On second thought, strike that: it IS their quality control.
I carry a spare scope, but in the vast scheme of things my 'missions' aren't that important. Some soldiers (those who can) carry two Leupolds as standard kit. Carrying a backup is good practice; but having to carry a backup is many different kinds of wrong.
Hydro, that's excatly what Jacob and Frank have said: They've seen many Leupolds fail, but they've also seen more Leupolds than any other make.
I am not a fan of the Leupold 'lifetime' warranty. Warranties exist to protect the vendor, not the consumer. The Leupold fix-it-or-replace-it warranty is an alternative to quality control. On second thought, strike that: it IS their quality control.
I carry a spare scope, but in the vast scheme of things my 'missions' aren't that important. Some soldiers (those who can) carry two Leupolds as standard kit. Carrying a backup is good practice; but having to carry a backup is many different kinds of wrong.
Re: OK here goes if one scope wich one??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hydro556</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shaggyback</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As close to "apples to apples" as I can find, and yes, twice the fuckin price:
http://www.swfa.com/pc-2510-284-schmidt-bender-5-25x56-police-marksman-lp-34mm-riflescope.aspx
I'll even go lower with a 4-16x50, still over twice the price:
http://www.swfa.com/pc-2507-284-schmidt-bender-4-16x50-police-marksman-lp-34mm-riflescope.aspx
</div></div>
Twice the price of what? Not twice the price of NF's top of the line FFP optic. Not even close. </div></div>
I'm pretty sure $2290.00 multiplied by 2 would not equal to $3,148.95. Unless my math is wrong
I just commited myself in buying a Premier since it's made here. It was either a Premier or USO, support your country man!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hydro556</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shaggyback</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As close to "apples to apples" as I can find, and yes, twice the fuckin price:
http://www.swfa.com/pc-2510-284-schmidt-bender-5-25x56-police-marksman-lp-34mm-riflescope.aspx
I'll even go lower with a 4-16x50, still over twice the price:
http://www.swfa.com/pc-2507-284-schmidt-bender-4-16x50-police-marksman-lp-34mm-riflescope.aspx
</div></div>
Twice the price of what? Not twice the price of NF's top of the line FFP optic. Not even close. </div></div>
I'm pretty sure $2290.00 multiplied by 2 would not equal to $3,148.95. Unless my math is wrong
I just commited myself in buying a Premier since it's made here. It was either a Premier or USO, support your country man!
G
Guest
Guest
Re: OK here goes if one scope wich one??
Hydro, mine is a brand new NF, purchased a few months ago. You just gotta know a dealer and he's gotta trust you enough to do it.
Okay, you guys were correct, not twice the price. I did the math. They are 38% more expensive.
Now, not one of you has answered my question: are they 38% better, commanding the extra 38% pricetag? If they are, please feel free to explain. (An actual explanation with facts and numbers. Not, "because I think...")
Hydro, mine is a brand new NF, purchased a few months ago. You just gotta know a dealer and he's gotta trust you enough to do it.
Okay, you guys were correct, not twice the price. I did the math. They are 38% more expensive.
Now, not one of you has answered my question: are they 38% better, commanding the extra 38% pricetag? If they are, please feel free to explain. (An actual explanation with facts and numbers. Not, "because I think...")
Re: OK here goes if one scope wich one??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shaggyback</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now, not one of you has answered my question: are they 38% better, commanding the extra 38% pricetag? If you feel they are, please feel free to explain.</div></div>That is something that Premier is coping with as we speak: In a global economy, geography no longer matters. What matters is whether capital investment is being used to build something or to buy something. The former is real investment; the latter is speculation. When other scope companies use international trade on a massive scale to source cheap parts, then assemble the unit here, that is a way of avoiding the WTO's dumping rules. It has the effect of uncoupling production cost from sales price. The result: corporate profits go up; but growth goes down.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joeyhotfizzle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just commited myself in buying a Premier since it's made here... It was either a Premier or USO, support your country man!</div></div>Good for you. Ballsy move; great scope!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shaggyback</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now, not one of you has answered my question: are they 38% better, commanding the extra 38% pricetag? If you feel they are, please feel free to explain.</div></div>That is something that Premier is coping with as we speak: In a global economy, geography no longer matters. What matters is whether capital investment is being used to build something or to buy something. The former is real investment; the latter is speculation. When other scope companies use international trade on a massive scale to source cheap parts, then assemble the unit here, that is a way of avoiding the WTO's dumping rules. It has the effect of uncoupling production cost from sales price. The result: corporate profits go up; but growth goes down.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joeyhotfizzle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just commited myself in buying a Premier since it's made here... It was either a Premier or USO, support your country man!</div></div>Good for you. Ballsy move; great scope!
G
Guest
Guest
Re: OK here goes if one scope wich one??
So, your argument is that NF makes a cheap product bc they are made in Japan?
***Serious question, not trying to be flippant.
So, your argument is that NF makes a cheap product bc they are made in Japan?
***Serious question, not trying to be flippant.
Re: OK here goes if one scope wich one??
Shaggy,
Yes, outsourcing parts makes for a less expensive product. No, Japan is no longer a source for cheap parts. I would still buy a NF any day of the week.
My explanation was not so much an argument as it was an observation about facts on the ground in a global economy: Companies that manufacture here remain very vulnerable - to price in the marketplace, and to venture capitalists otherwise.
My argument is that the economic crash of last year proved that Globalization is dead. The success of China, and its huge growth rate, is not the product of it embracing Globalization. Why? because it had capital controls and limits on investment that allowed it to remain buoyant through the crisis.
But don't take what I am saying too far: I'm not a fan of the Chinese 'way': they still have the most dangerous, most exploitive, and most polluted manufacturing system on the planet.
And they still make shitty scopes.
Shaggy,
Yes, outsourcing parts makes for a less expensive product. No, Japan is no longer a source for cheap parts. I would still buy a NF any day of the week.
My explanation was not so much an argument as it was an observation about facts on the ground in a global economy: Companies that manufacture here remain very vulnerable - to price in the marketplace, and to venture capitalists otherwise.
My argument is that the economic crash of last year proved that Globalization is dead. The success of China, and its huge growth rate, is not the product of it embracing Globalization. Why? because it had capital controls and limits on investment that allowed it to remain buoyant through the crisis.
But don't take what I am saying too far: I'm not a fan of the Chinese 'way': they still have the most dangerous, most exploitive, and most polluted manufacturing system on the planet.
And they still make shitty scopes.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: OK here goes if one scope wich one??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
1 outsourcing parts makes for a less expensive product
2 Japan is no longer a source for cheap parts.
3 I would still buy a NF any day of the week.
4 Companies that manufacture here remain very vulnerable - to price in the marketplace, and to venture capitalists otherwise.
5 I'm not a fan of the Chinese 'way': they still have the most dangerous, most exploitive, and most polluted manufacturing system on the planet.
6 they still make shitty scopes.</div></div>
Agree x6
I agree completely.
I appreciate the clarification bro. I was trying to relate that to my question and figure out if that was a response regarding my question of, if the S&B cost X number of dollars more, are they X amount better. (38% better to be exact.)
Thread got awfully quiet after I asked that....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
1 outsourcing parts makes for a less expensive product
2 Japan is no longer a source for cheap parts.
3 I would still buy a NF any day of the week.
4 Companies that manufacture here remain very vulnerable - to price in the marketplace, and to venture capitalists otherwise.
5 I'm not a fan of the Chinese 'way': they still have the most dangerous, most exploitive, and most polluted manufacturing system on the planet.
6 they still make shitty scopes.</div></div>
Agree x6
I agree completely.
I appreciate the clarification bro. I was trying to relate that to my question and figure out if that was a response regarding my question of, if the S&B cost X number of dollars more, are they X amount better. (38% better to be exact.)
Thread got awfully quiet after I asked that....
Re: OK here goes if one scope wich one??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shaggyback</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hydro, mine is a brand new NF, purchased a few months ago. You just gotta know a dealer and he's gotta trust you enough to do it.
Okay, you guys were correct, not twice the price. I did the math. They are 38% more expensive.
Now, not one of you has answered my question: are they 38% better, commanding the extra 38% pricetag? If they are, please feel free to explain. (An actual explanation with facts and numbers. Not, "because I think...") </div></div>
That question just cannot be answered accurately. Varies between users. Just like the deal with slur of the day, bashing Leupold. I have had a bunch of them and they have been perfect. But other guys, who are rough on gear, (I admittedly am not, just have no reason to be) are saying they are failing at a higher rate than the scopes costing twice as much. If I want a budget optic, I can live with that. Especially since all mine have performed 100%.
Is a NF worth more than 200% what a MKIV costs me, for my needs? No.
Is an S&B worth 38% more than a NF, maybe not, but I have one coming anyway. I just like trying out different stuff. If lives were on the line in my shooting, I would think the 38% to be something of a no brainer.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shaggyback</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hydro, mine is a brand new NF, purchased a few months ago. You just gotta know a dealer and he's gotta trust you enough to do it.
Okay, you guys were correct, not twice the price. I did the math. They are 38% more expensive.
Now, not one of you has answered my question: are they 38% better, commanding the extra 38% pricetag? If they are, please feel free to explain. (An actual explanation with facts and numbers. Not, "because I think...") </div></div>
That question just cannot be answered accurately. Varies between users. Just like the deal with slur of the day, bashing Leupold. I have had a bunch of them and they have been perfect. But other guys, who are rough on gear, (I admittedly am not, just have no reason to be) are saying they are failing at a higher rate than the scopes costing twice as much. If I want a budget optic, I can live with that. Especially since all mine have performed 100%.
Is a NF worth more than 200% what a MKIV costs me, for my needs? No.
Is an S&B worth 38% more than a NF, maybe not, but I have one coming anyway. I just like trying out different stuff. If lives were on the line in my shooting, I would think the 38% to be something of a no brainer.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: OK here goes if one scope wich one??
Hydro, I agree with that. Fact is, 99% of the guys on here arent shooting in life on the line scenarios. Hell, of the total membership, I'm willing to bet 90% have never been nor ever will be in a life on the line scenario.
S&B does have more of some things, which IS why guys (not saying youre one of em) do fork over the cash for em and drool over them:
38% more "Scout Snipers use em!"
38% more cool factor
38% more perceived inches to their dicks
Not everyone, but quite a few are following this mentality. There are lots of examples of it all over this site. That was my main point.
Again, they are better scopes. I agree. Ive shot plenty with em. And, bro, youre gonna be happy as a pig in shit when you take yours out the first time.
But, LL's post at the beginning of the year comes to mind. Less gear queer*. More time getting back to good fundamentals of shooting and practicing our asses off.
And, I found it very telling that people were fast to pile on me about my math, but when I asked a simple question for them to justify their purchase, no one stepped up. No one could come up with anything.
Why do I shoot a NF over a Tasco? Its a better scope. Better glass. Better reliability. Better reticle selection. Better tracking. But, why do I shoot a NF over an S&B, etc? Preference. At some point, getting small doses of "better" dont add up when looking at the price tag.
*Not saying you are one.
Hydro, I agree with that. Fact is, 99% of the guys on here arent shooting in life on the line scenarios. Hell, of the total membership, I'm willing to bet 90% have never been nor ever will be in a life on the line scenario.
S&B does have more of some things, which IS why guys (not saying youre one of em) do fork over the cash for em and drool over them:
38% more "Scout Snipers use em!"
38% more cool factor
38% more perceived inches to their dicks
Not everyone, but quite a few are following this mentality. There are lots of examples of it all over this site. That was my main point.
Again, they are better scopes. I agree. Ive shot plenty with em. And, bro, youre gonna be happy as a pig in shit when you take yours out the first time.
But, LL's post at the beginning of the year comes to mind. Less gear queer*. More time getting back to good fundamentals of shooting and practicing our asses off.
And, I found it very telling that people were fast to pile on me about my math, but when I asked a simple question for them to justify their purchase, no one stepped up. No one could come up with anything.
Why do I shoot a NF over a Tasco? Its a better scope. Better glass. Better reliability. Better reticle selection. Better tracking. But, why do I shoot a NF over an S&B, etc? Preference. At some point, getting small doses of "better" dont add up when looking at the price tag.
*Not saying you are one.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: OK here goes if one scope wich one??
And, wtf? I like my Leupys. Ive got a 20 year old Leupy that sits on my first deer rifle, that I still use. I sight it in every year before season. Ive not had to make a single adjustment to it since I was in junior high school. No joke.
And, wtf? I like my Leupys. Ive got a 20 year old Leupy that sits on my first deer rifle, that I still use. I sight it in every year before season. Ive not had to make a single adjustment to it since I was in junior high school. No joke.
Re: OK here goes if one scope wich one??
.......Is a NF worth more than 200% what a MKIV costs me, for my needs? No. ....
I must be confused.
Mark IV 6.5-20X50 er/t m1 tmr say $1,400.00
NXS 5.5-22x50 illum. say $1,700.00
Both about same features. No mil/mil on Mark IV.
Is there a much cheaper location to get Mark IV? Maybe I would have to re-evaluate.
.......Is a NF worth more than 200% what a MKIV costs me, for my needs? No. ....
I must be confused.
Mark IV 6.5-20X50 er/t m1 tmr say $1,400.00
NXS 5.5-22x50 illum. say $1,700.00
Both about same features. No mil/mil on Mark IV.
Is there a much cheaper location to get Mark IV? Maybe I would have to re-evaluate.
Re: OK here goes if one scope wich one??
One scope?
Leupold mk4 60000 illum TMR 4.5-15
One scope. Best all around scope in terms of weight, size, flexibility, features, value, and clarity.
100moa of elvation and windage adjustment
TMR reticle for holdovers or ranging
Illumination allows Bindon fast response shooting
Lightweight 22oz compared to others
Compact
Great optics (maybe not THE BEST) , but it is a rifle sight not a device for digi-scoping
Flexible enough to enable experienced user to get all any field use rifle can provide.
How much does your Field-Use Rifle weigh?
Had an AR-10(T) that went almost 19lbs with Magpul sniper stock, NXS 8-32x. Now it weighs 14lbs with a full magazine, no Magpul and a #60000. Which is better?
Better is a subjective term. Is the 8-32x NXS "better" than the 60000? Maybe, but I am not going to carry a 20lb rifle as easily as a 14lb rig. If your idea of Field-Use is to shoot off a 5' high tripod with a gimbled rifle mount then go for the NXS.
I do not see much Field-Use potential from a 20lb rifle unless you are shooting from a trench or bunker over desert or prairie. Not my AO. Got lotsa places to shoot 1000+ yards in your area?
Shooting at dime-sized targets at 1000? Are ya? Got everything in your shooting kit maximized for that shooting mission? If so, you are dangerously over-specialized.
THE BEST RIFLE is one that is light enough to be halfway comfortable to carry, accurate enough to place a hit on any target you can identify with fast response from an off-hand position. The scopesight is a component in the rifle equation. Optics are not the prime concern. Accurate reticle movements and durability are more critical.
Just as a .408 Chey-Tac or .50 BMG can deliver a round at greater distance, they are not usually individually fielded weapons, but more crew-supported tools of warfare. Do you go for a hike with a 35lb rifle? Would you choose a 20lb rifle based on the possibility of getting a shot at 1200+ yds; or would you save 1/3 the weight and try to get closer?
What serves better purpose at longrange? A bolt rifle or AR-10T? Fire 2-3 rds from the AR-10T with similar relative accuracy as the bolt rifle, before the 2nd shot is chambered in the bolt gun.
A 14lb, AR-10T with 20rd magazine and 4.5-14x 50mm TMR mk4 is a formidable longrange rifle system if you weigh all the options and probabilities.
One scope?
Leupold mk4 60000 illum TMR 4.5-15
One scope. Best all around scope in terms of weight, size, flexibility, features, value, and clarity.
100moa of elvation and windage adjustment
TMR reticle for holdovers or ranging
Illumination allows Bindon fast response shooting
Lightweight 22oz compared to others
Compact
Great optics (maybe not THE BEST) , but it is a rifle sight not a device for digi-scoping
Flexible enough to enable experienced user to get all any field use rifle can provide.
How much does your Field-Use Rifle weigh?
Had an AR-10(T) that went almost 19lbs with Magpul sniper stock, NXS 8-32x. Now it weighs 14lbs with a full magazine, no Magpul and a #60000. Which is better?
Better is a subjective term. Is the 8-32x NXS "better" than the 60000? Maybe, but I am not going to carry a 20lb rifle as easily as a 14lb rig. If your idea of Field-Use is to shoot off a 5' high tripod with a gimbled rifle mount then go for the NXS.
I do not see much Field-Use potential from a 20lb rifle unless you are shooting from a trench or bunker over desert or prairie. Not my AO. Got lotsa places to shoot 1000+ yards in your area?
Shooting at dime-sized targets at 1000? Are ya? Got everything in your shooting kit maximized for that shooting mission? If so, you are dangerously over-specialized.
THE BEST RIFLE is one that is light enough to be halfway comfortable to carry, accurate enough to place a hit on any target you can identify with fast response from an off-hand position. The scopesight is a component in the rifle equation. Optics are not the prime concern. Accurate reticle movements and durability are more critical.
Just as a .408 Chey-Tac or .50 BMG can deliver a round at greater distance, they are not usually individually fielded weapons, but more crew-supported tools of warfare. Do you go for a hike with a 35lb rifle? Would you choose a 20lb rifle based on the possibility of getting a shot at 1200+ yds; or would you save 1/3 the weight and try to get closer?
What serves better purpose at longrange? A bolt rifle or AR-10T? Fire 2-3 rds from the AR-10T with similar relative accuracy as the bolt rifle, before the 2nd shot is chambered in the bolt gun.
A 14lb, AR-10T with 20rd magazine and 4.5-14x 50mm TMR mk4 is a formidable longrange rifle system if you weigh all the options and probabilities.
Re: OK here goes if one scope wich one??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And, I found it very telling that people were fast to pile on me about my math, but when I asked a simple question for them to justify their purchase, no one stepped up. No one could come up with anything.</div></div>
I did not come up with anything since I dont own a S&B but I'm a future owner of a Premier - like I stated above. I was just pointing out your over exaggeration with the math that is all.
Swamper I think you just described my set up w/o the illum and it's 4.5-14
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And, I found it very telling that people were fast to pile on me about my math, but when I asked a simple question for them to justify their purchase, no one stepped up. No one could come up with anything.</div></div>
I did not come up with anything since I dont own a S&B but I'm a future owner of a Premier - like I stated above. I was just pointing out your over exaggeration with the math that is all.
Swamper I think you just described my set up w/o the illum and it's 4.5-14
Re: OK here goes if one scope wich one??
us optics sn3 3.8-22x44. moa moa.
us optics sn3 3.8-22x44. moa moa.
Re: OK here goes if one scope wich one??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AugeredIn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I must be confused.
Mark IV 6.5-20X50 er/t m1 tmr say $1,400.00
NXS 5.5-22x50 illum. say $1,700.00
Both about same features. No mil/mil on Mark IV.
Is there a much cheaper location to get Mark IV? Maybe I would have to re-evaluate.</div></div>
FYI-The Mark 4 er/t and the NXS 5.5-22x don't have "about the same features." That Leupy is FFP.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AugeredIn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I must be confused.
Mark IV 6.5-20X50 er/t m1 tmr say $1,400.00
NXS 5.5-22x50 illum. say $1,700.00
Both about same features. No mil/mil on Mark IV.
Is there a much cheaper location to get Mark IV? Maybe I would have to re-evaluate.</div></div>
FYI-The Mark 4 er/t and the NXS 5.5-22x don't have "about the same features." That Leupy is FFP.
Re: OK here goes if one scope wich one??
but the night force is a much better built scope
but the night force is a much better built scope
Re: OK here goes if one scope wich one??
I didn't know S&B would make my dick bigger, I must get one now.....
I didn't know S&B would make my dick bigger, I must get one now.....
Re: OK here goes if one scope wich one??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: drmarc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I didn't know S&B would make my dick bigger, I must get one now..... </div></div>
Nice!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: drmarc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I didn't know S&B would make my dick bigger, I must get one now..... </div></div>
Nice!
Re: OK here goes if one scope wich one??
Joey,
That is it!
Mine has a Badger handguard from which I removed about 6 picatinny slots to fit the scope objective. With Med TPS rings it is perfect for a fast stockweld every time.
Also like the NXS 2.5-10 24mm for lightweight, as it is right at 16oz and tough. Also like the Leupold 1.5-5x MR/T w/SPR reticle, but haven't bought a .308 cam. Am thinking of selling the NXS and going MR/T.
Also like MK4 M3 6x & 10x fixed optics for the qualities I cited above. Have thought of converting the 60000 to M2 turret for elevation.
What single rifle can do as much in as many situations as the AR-10? I own bolt rifles, but more and more I wonder why?
For one go-to rifle, where I live, I would have to choose the AR-10; if combat defense were in the equation; and when isn't it in a site discussing sniping?
From my perspective, sniping has evolved into something much more than taking one or two shots from a hide or gillie suited position. It takes a lighter weight rig to give you the mobility, and a self-loader to enable multiple fast target depositions.
For all its "imperfections" compared to the top-tier boutique or mil-spec optics, the Leupold 4.5-14 weighs half as much or less, does not require the long-ass scope base and heavy-duty rings and is great in low-light situations. No, the 14x or 13.5x will not enable you to, at 800yds, read over your targets shoulder as he peruses a Penguin copy of Sun Tzu, but you carry a spotting scope for target identification, don't you? All the scopesight needs to do is orient your reticle on target and enable your confident adjustment for windage and elevation. Nice to have the illumination to better see your reticle but...
The old saying about the man with only a hammer sees everything as a nail. I am sure the .338 Lapua with 12-42x NightForce is an awesome tool, but a .308 AR-10T like Joey's up there is tremendously more versatile, and lighter to carry. Doesn't matter if you have a helocopter or other ride to your AO but if you are carrying gear on your back, every ounce counts.
Joey,
That is it!
Mine has a Badger handguard from which I removed about 6 picatinny slots to fit the scope objective. With Med TPS rings it is perfect for a fast stockweld every time.
Also like the NXS 2.5-10 24mm for lightweight, as it is right at 16oz and tough. Also like the Leupold 1.5-5x MR/T w/SPR reticle, but haven't bought a .308 cam. Am thinking of selling the NXS and going MR/T.
Also like MK4 M3 6x & 10x fixed optics for the qualities I cited above. Have thought of converting the 60000 to M2 turret for elevation.
What single rifle can do as much in as many situations as the AR-10? I own bolt rifles, but more and more I wonder why?
For one go-to rifle, where I live, I would have to choose the AR-10; if combat defense were in the equation; and when isn't it in a site discussing sniping?
From my perspective, sniping has evolved into something much more than taking one or two shots from a hide or gillie suited position. It takes a lighter weight rig to give you the mobility, and a self-loader to enable multiple fast target depositions.
For all its "imperfections" compared to the top-tier boutique or mil-spec optics, the Leupold 4.5-14 weighs half as much or less, does not require the long-ass scope base and heavy-duty rings and is great in low-light situations. No, the 14x or 13.5x will not enable you to, at 800yds, read over your targets shoulder as he peruses a Penguin copy of Sun Tzu, but you carry a spotting scope for target identification, don't you? All the scopesight needs to do is orient your reticle on target and enable your confident adjustment for windage and elevation. Nice to have the illumination to better see your reticle but...
The old saying about the man with only a hammer sees everything as a nail. I am sure the .338 Lapua with 12-42x NightForce is an awesome tool, but a .308 AR-10T like Joey's up there is tremendously more versatile, and lighter to carry. Doesn't matter if you have a helocopter or other ride to your AO but if you are carrying gear on your back, every ounce counts.
Re: OK here goes if one scope wich one??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swamper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Joey,
That is it!
Mine has a Badger handguard from which I removed about 6 picatinny slots to fit the scope objective. With Med TPS rings it is perfect for a fast stockweld every time.
Also like the NXS 2.5-10 24mm for lightweight, as it is right at 16oz and tough. Also like the Leupold 1.5-5x MR/T w/SPR reticle, but haven't bought a .308 cam. Am thinking of selling the NXS and going MR/T.
Also like MK4 M3 6x & 10x fixed optics for the qualities I cited above. Have thought of converting the 60000 to M2 turret for elevation.
What single rifle can do as much in as many situations as the AR-10? I own bolt rifles, but more and more I wonder why?
For one go-to rifle, where I live, I would have to choose the AR-10; if combat defense were in the equation; and when isn't it in a site discussing sniping?
From my perspective, sniping has evolved into something much more than taking one or two shots from a hide or gillie suited position. It takes a lighter weight rig to give you the mobility, and a self-loader to enable multiple fast target depositions.
For all its "imperfections" compared to the top-tier boutique or mil-spec optics, the Leupold 4.5-14 weighs half as much or less, does not require the long-ass scope base and heavy-duty rings and is great in low-light situations. No, the 14x or 13.5x will not enable you to, at 800yds, read over your targets shoulder as he peruses a Penguin copy of Sun Tzu, but you carry a spotting scope for target identification, don't you? All the scopesight needs to do is orient your reticle on target and enable your confident adjustment for windage and elevation. Nice to have the illumination to better see your reticle but...
The old saying about the man with only a hammer sees everything as a nail. I am sure the .338 Lapua with 12-42x NightForce is an awesome tool, but a .308 AR-10T like Joey's up there is tremendously more versatile, and lighter to carry. Doesn't matter if you have a helocopter or other ride to your AO but if you are carrying gear on your back, every ounce counts. </div></div>
Amen there Swamper! Also it would be tits to use just in case all these Swine Flu infected people turns into half pig half human zombies. I have an ar15 but my AR10 can do the job and then <span style="font-size: 14pt">SOME</span>... I would like to add a mini red dot that Tacticalnightvision sells, then she's done.
Also Leupold gives us Active duty folks an awesome deal which I cannot pass...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swamper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Joey,
That is it!
Mine has a Badger handguard from which I removed about 6 picatinny slots to fit the scope objective. With Med TPS rings it is perfect for a fast stockweld every time.
Also like the NXS 2.5-10 24mm for lightweight, as it is right at 16oz and tough. Also like the Leupold 1.5-5x MR/T w/SPR reticle, but haven't bought a .308 cam. Am thinking of selling the NXS and going MR/T.
Also like MK4 M3 6x & 10x fixed optics for the qualities I cited above. Have thought of converting the 60000 to M2 turret for elevation.
What single rifle can do as much in as many situations as the AR-10? I own bolt rifles, but more and more I wonder why?
For one go-to rifle, where I live, I would have to choose the AR-10; if combat defense were in the equation; and when isn't it in a site discussing sniping?
From my perspective, sniping has evolved into something much more than taking one or two shots from a hide or gillie suited position. It takes a lighter weight rig to give you the mobility, and a self-loader to enable multiple fast target depositions.
For all its "imperfections" compared to the top-tier boutique or mil-spec optics, the Leupold 4.5-14 weighs half as much or less, does not require the long-ass scope base and heavy-duty rings and is great in low-light situations. No, the 14x or 13.5x will not enable you to, at 800yds, read over your targets shoulder as he peruses a Penguin copy of Sun Tzu, but you carry a spotting scope for target identification, don't you? All the scopesight needs to do is orient your reticle on target and enable your confident adjustment for windage and elevation. Nice to have the illumination to better see your reticle but...
The old saying about the man with only a hammer sees everything as a nail. I am sure the .338 Lapua with 12-42x NightForce is an awesome tool, but a .308 AR-10T like Joey's up there is tremendously more versatile, and lighter to carry. Doesn't matter if you have a helocopter or other ride to your AO but if you are carrying gear on your back, every ounce counts. </div></div>
Amen there Swamper! Also it would be tits to use just in case all these Swine Flu infected people turns into half pig half human zombies. I have an ar15 but my AR10 can do the job and then <span style="font-size: 14pt">SOME</span>... I would like to add a mini red dot that Tacticalnightvision sells, then she's done.
Also Leupold gives us Active duty folks an awesome deal which I cannot pass...
Re: OK here goes if one scope wich one??
S&B 5x25 56mm is the best that I have put up to my eyes. The glass is awesome, just one look and it will be decided. Not that the others mentioned are wrong. Owned a NF 3.5x15 50mm, it is very strong built, but the glass compared to S&B's is not there. Have several Leupold Mark 4s, very good products for the price range and excellent service department. Not a know it all, just very satisfied with my S&B. It is a big jump to put out that kind of money on my family budget, but well worth the jack$$$$. kypdass
S&B 5x25 56mm is the best that I have put up to my eyes. The glass is awesome, just one look and it will be decided. Not that the others mentioned are wrong. Owned a NF 3.5x15 50mm, it is very strong built, but the glass compared to S&B's is not there. Have several Leupold Mark 4s, very good products for the price range and excellent service department. Not a know it all, just very satisfied with my S&B. It is a big jump to put out that kind of money on my family budget, but well worth the jack$$$$. kypdass
G
Guest
Guest
Re: OK here goes if one scope wich one??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swamper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1) From my perspective, sniping has evolved into something much more than taking one or two shots from a hide or gillie suited position. It takes a lighter weight rig to give you the mobility, and a self-loader to enable multiple fast target depositions.
2) compared to the top-tier boutique or mil-spec optics</div></div>
1) Yeah, the pros agree, thats why theyve switched from the M40/M24 config to...Oh, wait. No, they havent. While I agree, the days of the majority of missions involving a low crawl are gone, the necessary rifle has improved but not changed. Apparently, the pros agree with me. The arsenal may have expanded, yet the main tool remains steadfast.
2) I find it humerous that you would put MIL-SPEC and boutique in the same sentence. One means "trendy," and one means "tough enough to be dropped into a combat zone" (a place you have obviously never fucking been).
Fizzle, frankly, youve proven my point. My math was overexaggerated for a reason, yet my point was clear. And, of all of you people, not one could argue with anything other than the math. That proves what I thought. No one could justify the purchase with fact. Instead, guys simply want "what the pros have" without knowing why. Its nothing new, and its really not a cut down. They make up the vast majority of guys I see on the range. They have the best shit, yet they treat it like a Tasco with pretty glass because THEY DONT KNOW WHAT THEY HAVE OR HOW TO USE IT.
Phoenix Tactical's Pod Claws are the perfect example of this. As a friend and great shooter said, less than 1% of shooters know how to PROPERLY load a bipod. Yet everyone on here has a bipod. This is the beauty of the Pod Claws. Even the fumbledicks that dont know how to load a pod properly, with Pod Claws, still get the advantages of doing so. It is called Unconscious Competent, or UN-CO (Doing it right, without knowing how to do it correctly). (Now, knowing what youre doing WITH Pod Claws is the best thing since sliced bread. There is no reason to shoot without them!)
Glass is the biggest place to see UN-CO. They get the best because they equate (correctly) price with quality. Yet, they have ZERO fucking clue as to what makes one better than the other!
If you want to buy something bc that is what Scout Snipers use, or because you like having the most expensive scope at the firing line, or because you think it gives you the edge, then fine. By all means, use that scope. But, know why youre really using that scope.**
**Not directed toward everyone. Some S&B owners know what they have and why. More power too em. Ive used em in country and never had a problem with them. I'd recommend them to anyone.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swamper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1) From my perspective, sniping has evolved into something much more than taking one or two shots from a hide or gillie suited position. It takes a lighter weight rig to give you the mobility, and a self-loader to enable multiple fast target depositions.
2) compared to the top-tier boutique or mil-spec optics</div></div>
1) Yeah, the pros agree, thats why theyve switched from the M40/M24 config to...Oh, wait. No, they havent. While I agree, the days of the majority of missions involving a low crawl are gone, the necessary rifle has improved but not changed. Apparently, the pros agree with me. The arsenal may have expanded, yet the main tool remains steadfast.
2) I find it humerous that you would put MIL-SPEC and boutique in the same sentence. One means "trendy," and one means "tough enough to be dropped into a combat zone" (a place you have obviously never fucking been).
Fizzle, frankly, youve proven my point. My math was overexaggerated for a reason, yet my point was clear. And, of all of you people, not one could argue with anything other than the math. That proves what I thought. No one could justify the purchase with fact. Instead, guys simply want "what the pros have" without knowing why. Its nothing new, and its really not a cut down. They make up the vast majority of guys I see on the range. They have the best shit, yet they treat it like a Tasco with pretty glass because THEY DONT KNOW WHAT THEY HAVE OR HOW TO USE IT.
Phoenix Tactical's Pod Claws are the perfect example of this. As a friend and great shooter said, less than 1% of shooters know how to PROPERLY load a bipod. Yet everyone on here has a bipod. This is the beauty of the Pod Claws. Even the fumbledicks that dont know how to load a pod properly, with Pod Claws, still get the advantages of doing so. It is called Unconscious Competent, or UN-CO (Doing it right, without knowing how to do it correctly). (Now, knowing what youre doing WITH Pod Claws is the best thing since sliced bread. There is no reason to shoot without them!)
Glass is the biggest place to see UN-CO. They get the best because they equate (correctly) price with quality. Yet, they have ZERO fucking clue as to what makes one better than the other!
If you want to buy something bc that is what Scout Snipers use, or because you like having the most expensive scope at the firing line, or because you think it gives you the edge, then fine. By all means, use that scope. But, know why youre really using that scope.**
**Not directed toward everyone. Some S&B owners know what they have and why. More power too em. Ive used em in country and never had a problem with them. I'd recommend them to anyone.
Re: OK here goes if one scope wich one??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fizzle, frankly, youve proven my point. My math was overexaggerated for a reason, yet my point was clear. And, of all of you people, not one could argue with anything other than the math. That proves what I thought. No one could justify the purchase with fact. Instead, guys simply want "what the pros have" without knowing why. Its nothing new, and its really not a cut down. They make up the vast majority of guys I see on the range. They have the best shit, yet they treat it like a Tasco with pretty glass because THEY DONT KNOW WHAT THEY HAVE OR HOW TO USE IT.</div></div>
The Math is all I was trying to prove nothing more.I did get a chance to look through one of my buddies S&B and they do feel robust and with the mil/mil configuration it was easy for me to spot and recommend corrections for his shots - this is the main reason I'm buying a Premier (also for the glass, compared to the S&B I cant tell the difference - that's just my opinion). The glass on the S&B was a lot nicer than my MK4 but my Sightron SIII came close to it although the FOV is a lot better on the S&B.
I dont know the area where you shoot at but the guys that I have met at the shooting range in my ares are mostly Hide members and some are taking LL's lessons on proper shooting. They have the gear and they know how to use them. But of course there is those few exceptions...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fizzle, frankly, youve proven my point. My math was overexaggerated for a reason, yet my point was clear. And, of all of you people, not one could argue with anything other than the math. That proves what I thought. No one could justify the purchase with fact. Instead, guys simply want "what the pros have" without knowing why. Its nothing new, and its really not a cut down. They make up the vast majority of guys I see on the range. They have the best shit, yet they treat it like a Tasco with pretty glass because THEY DONT KNOW WHAT THEY HAVE OR HOW TO USE IT.</div></div>
The Math is all I was trying to prove nothing more.I did get a chance to look through one of my buddies S&B and they do feel robust and with the mil/mil configuration it was easy for me to spot and recommend corrections for his shots - this is the main reason I'm buying a Premier (also for the glass, compared to the S&B I cant tell the difference - that's just my opinion). The glass on the S&B was a lot nicer than my MK4 but my Sightron SIII came close to it although the FOV is a lot better on the S&B.
I dont know the area where you shoot at but the guys that I have met at the shooting range in my ares are mostly Hide members and some are taking LL's lessons on proper shooting. They have the gear and they know how to use them. But of course there is those few exceptions...
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Re: OK here goes if one scope wich one??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joeyhotfizzle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">are mostly Hide members and some are taking LL's lessons on proper shooting. They have the gear and they know how to use them. </div></div>
Totally BRO!!! Whyd I go through school, when I couldve just learned on the fucking internet.
Your statement above is the punchline is CKA's "Sniper CLEP Test" joke.
***Not knocking the online training forum. It has its place and purpose. LL is a school house grad, so I know he knows his shit. The RO guys are fucking amazing. But, taking some lessons on the internet doesnt mean you "have the gear and know how to use it."
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joeyhotfizzle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">are mostly Hide members and some are taking LL's lessons on proper shooting. They have the gear and they know how to use them. </div></div>
Totally BRO!!! Whyd I go through school, when I couldve just learned on the fucking internet.
Your statement above is the punchline is CKA's "Sniper CLEP Test" joke.
***Not knocking the online training forum. It has its place and purpose. LL is a school house grad, so I know he knows his shit. The RO guys are fucking amazing. But, taking some lessons on the internet doesnt mean you "have the gear and know how to use it."
Re: OK here goes if one scope wich one??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shaggyback</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joeyhotfizzle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">are mostly Hide members and some are taking LL's lessons on proper shooting. They have the gear and they know how to use them. </div></div>
Totally BRO!!! Whyd I go through school, when I couldve just learned on the fucking internet.
Your statement above is the punchline is CKA's "Sniper CLEP Test" joke.
***Not knocking the online training forum. It has its place and purpose. LL is a school house grad, so I know he knows his shit. The RO guys are fucking amazing. But, taking some lessons on the internet doesnt mean you "have the gear and know how to use it." </div></div>
Wow... I just said they know how to use them. I did not say they are "proffesionals like you are". Some people have to start somewhere which I think LL's lessons are pretty good and not all of us were born amazing like you are and we dont piss excellence in the morning.
You do this shit for a living good for you that you went to school. No need to brag about it. Us common people do this shit for fun and for some friendly competition. Dont piss on people who can afford the expensive stuff just because they can - it's their money. The fact that they know how to use it or not is not your problem.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shaggyback</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joeyhotfizzle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">are mostly Hide members and some are taking LL's lessons on proper shooting. They have the gear and they know how to use them. </div></div>
Totally BRO!!! Whyd I go through school, when I couldve just learned on the fucking internet.
Your statement above is the punchline is CKA's "Sniper CLEP Test" joke.
***Not knocking the online training forum. It has its place and purpose. LL is a school house grad, so I know he knows his shit. The RO guys are fucking amazing. But, taking some lessons on the internet doesnt mean you "have the gear and know how to use it." </div></div>
Wow... I just said they know how to use them. I did not say they are "proffesionals like you are". Some people have to start somewhere which I think LL's lessons are pretty good and not all of us were born amazing like you are and we dont piss excellence in the morning.
You do this shit for a living good for you that you went to school. No need to brag about it. Us common people do this shit for fun and for some friendly competition. Dont piss on people who can afford the expensive stuff just because they can - it's their money. The fact that they know how to use it or not is not your problem.
