Once fired brass, FL resize AND shoulder bump?
- Thread starter thefitter
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Re: Once fired brass, FL resize AND neck bump?
Depends on the context in which this conversation took place. You can do both operation with a standard FL sizer die or you can do these operation one at a time with the appropriate die set. But we need more information to help you make sense of this.
Depends on the context in which this conversation took place. You can do both operation with a standard FL sizer die or you can do these operation one at a time with the appropriate die set. But we need more information to help you make sense of this.
Re: Once fired brass, FL resize AND neck bump?
This is not a simple question and you will get varied answers. Some say that once your brass is fire formed to your chamber don't mess with it again until it starts getting tight. Then their are those that say to FL resize after every firing for reliability. And yet other will say to only bump the shoulders and leave the body taper alone after fire forming. The truth is probably somewhere in between and depends on what you do with the rifle. Were I you I think I would just neck size until the brass begin getting tight in the chamber then FL resize and set the shoulders back about 2 thousands. Unless it is an autoloader, then I would FL resize and set the shoulders back after ever firing.
This is not a simple question and you will get varied answers. Some say that once your brass is fire formed to your chamber don't mess with it again until it starts getting tight. Then their are those that say to FL resize after every firing for reliability. And yet other will say to only bump the shoulders and leave the body taper alone after fire forming. The truth is probably somewhere in between and depends on what you do with the rifle. Were I you I think I would just neck size until the brass begin getting tight in the chamber then FL resize and set the shoulders back about 2 thousands. Unless it is an autoloader, then I would FL resize and set the shoulders back after ever firing.
Re: Once fired brass, FL resize AND neck bump?
Here is a simple answer.
Keep shooting those cases until they get tight when you try to chamber them. So after you shoot a round put the empty brass back in and try and chamber it. If it goes straight in, reload it again and try again until you get to a point where the brass feeds like its harder to chamber.
At this point your brass has expanded to the point that its meeting the internals of your chamber.
All you need to do at this point, is bump back the shoulder 0.001 to 0.002 using an FL sizing die. This is easy to do if you have the tools, which every reloader should invest in. You measure the head to datum length on the case thats hard to chamber (using hornady/sinclair headspace guage and caliper), and then adjust your FL die until you shorten that cases length by 0.001 when you FL size.
You have now bumped back the shoulder enough to allow easy chambering AND gone for the option of bare minimal resizing saving the life of the brass and increasing safety by reducing the chance of case head seperations on old brass thats over worked. You should still check cases from time to time to see if the web is thinning at any points.
So to further answer your question, an FL sizing die does both size the body and the shoulder provided you set up the die properly.
Here is a simple answer.
Keep shooting those cases until they get tight when you try to chamber them. So after you shoot a round put the empty brass back in and try and chamber it. If it goes straight in, reload it again and try again until you get to a point where the brass feeds like its harder to chamber.
At this point your brass has expanded to the point that its meeting the internals of your chamber.
All you need to do at this point, is bump back the shoulder 0.001 to 0.002 using an FL sizing die. This is easy to do if you have the tools, which every reloader should invest in. You measure the head to datum length on the case thats hard to chamber (using hornady/sinclair headspace guage and caliper), and then adjust your FL die until you shorten that cases length by 0.001 when you FL size.
You have now bumped back the shoulder enough to allow easy chambering AND gone for the option of bare minimal resizing saving the life of the brass and increasing safety by reducing the chance of case head seperations on old brass thats over worked. You should still check cases from time to time to see if the web is thinning at any points.
So to further answer your question, an FL sizing die does both size the body and the shoulder provided you set up the die properly.
Re: Once fired brass, FL resize AND shoulder bump?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thefitter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Two separate individuals said to do this. Why both? Thanks </div></div>
Not that this is the ONLY right answer, but this has been my bible so far and its been working out great:
Reloading 101 sticky
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Doc76251</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Resizing Brass:
First let me say that I Full Length (FL) resize ALL my brass EVERY time. I have never understood the concept of neck sizing brass. Nor do I agree with the idea that I am working the brass too much by full length sizing each time.
Here is why: If you only size the neck of the brass, the body will continue to grow as the brass springs back less and less after each firing. It makes sense to me that if the outside is growing, the inside (case volume) must be getting larger also. That means that the volume is increasing, which ultimately means you are getting less pressure each time you reload. Your velocities will get lower (or at least will be changing) after each reload. This does not lend itself to consistency in my eyes. Add to that is given that you will have to run your case through a FL die (or body die) after about 5 reloads anyway because it won’t fit into your chamber anymore. Full Length sizing it at that time means that you just squoze it back down to the minimum dimension all in one shot and have really worked the brass. More Consistent? Easier on brass? I can’t see it.
Setting up the dies:
In the absence of a headspace gauge (which actually pretty worthless if you think about it, since they are made to a standard that may or may not match your chamber) or another device that allows you to measure the shoulder of the case, you will need the rifle that the ammo is intended for. For this text the brass we are resizing will not fit into your chamber. That gives you a starting point: The bolt won’t close.
How To:
Put the die into your press and raise the ram with a shell holder in place. Screw the die down until it hit’s the shell holder. Now back it off 1 full revolution. Size a piece of brass. Attempt to chamber the brass. Does the bolt close smoothly with NO resistance? If it does you’ll need to back off the die some more and try more brass until it DOES NOT chamber with out resistance. Remember to keep the brass lubricated during this phase. Once you are feeling resistance or can’t get the bolt closed, begin rotating the die clockwise about a 1/16th or a 1/8th of a turn at a time and resize the case again. Continue to check the brass against your chamber and reset the die as needed until you get to the point where it just closes smoothly and without resistance in the rifle. Don’t forget to keep the case lubed while doing this!! Now take a new piece of brass and resize it. It may fit your chamber cleanly but chances are you will need to give the die another 1/16th of a turn to ensure the first time through the die gets it right, even brass coming out of dies has spring back. At this point in time you have your dies set and are probably pushing the shoulder of the case back .001 - .002”, not a whole lot of work on the brass. Lock your dies in place and don’t touch them again.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thefitter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Two separate individuals said to do this. Why both? Thanks </div></div>
Not that this is the ONLY right answer, but this has been my bible so far and its been working out great:
Reloading 101 sticky
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Doc76251</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Resizing Brass:
First let me say that I Full Length (FL) resize ALL my brass EVERY time. I have never understood the concept of neck sizing brass. Nor do I agree with the idea that I am working the brass too much by full length sizing each time.
Here is why: If you only size the neck of the brass, the body will continue to grow as the brass springs back less and less after each firing. It makes sense to me that if the outside is growing, the inside (case volume) must be getting larger also. That means that the volume is increasing, which ultimately means you are getting less pressure each time you reload. Your velocities will get lower (or at least will be changing) after each reload. This does not lend itself to consistency in my eyes. Add to that is given that you will have to run your case through a FL die (or body die) after about 5 reloads anyway because it won’t fit into your chamber anymore. Full Length sizing it at that time means that you just squoze it back down to the minimum dimension all in one shot and have really worked the brass. More Consistent? Easier on brass? I can’t see it.
Setting up the dies:
In the absence of a headspace gauge (which actually pretty worthless if you think about it, since they are made to a standard that may or may not match your chamber) or another device that allows you to measure the shoulder of the case, you will need the rifle that the ammo is intended for. For this text the brass we are resizing will not fit into your chamber. That gives you a starting point: The bolt won’t close.
How To:
Put the die into your press and raise the ram with a shell holder in place. Screw the die down until it hit’s the shell holder. Now back it off 1 full revolution. Size a piece of brass. Attempt to chamber the brass. Does the bolt close smoothly with NO resistance? If it does you’ll need to back off the die some more and try more brass until it DOES NOT chamber with out resistance. Remember to keep the brass lubricated during this phase. Once you are feeling resistance or can’t get the bolt closed, begin rotating the die clockwise about a 1/16th or a 1/8th of a turn at a time and resize the case again. Continue to check the brass against your chamber and reset the die as needed until you get to the point where it just closes smoothly and without resistance in the rifle. Don’t forget to keep the case lubed while doing this!! Now take a new piece of brass and resize it. It may fit your chamber cleanly but chances are you will need to give the die another 1/16th of a turn to ensure the first time through the die gets it right, even brass coming out of dies has spring back. At this point in time you have your dies set and are probably pushing the shoulder of the case back .001 - .002”, not a whole lot of work on the brass. Lock your dies in place and don’t touch them again.</div></div>
Re: Once fired brass, FL resize AND shoulder bump?
You know thats exactly what ive been saying.
To me I see neck sizing as a something you perform if you want control over neck tension via a bushing... hench why they sell different size bushings.
You know thats exactly what ive been saying.
To me I see neck sizing as a something you perform if you want control over neck tension via a bushing... hench why they sell different size bushings.
Re: Once fired brass, FL resize AND shoulder bump?
Get a Headspace gage and throw away the instructions that come with all FL dies, use the gage to set up your FL die, when one uses a FL set up correctly it will resize the body of the case, the neck of the case, and bump the shoulder .001-.0015, this will ensure reliable feeding, prevent one from overworking the brass, and will make dam good shooting ammo. By using the headspace gage to set up your die you will notice that the brass gets longer before it get shorter, this is because the body is being resized before the shoulder comes in contact with the die, keep turning the die down until the desired amount of bump is achieved(.001-.0015), please do not use One-Shot, get some Imperial Sizing wax or Hornady Unique.
Get a Headspace gage and throw away the instructions that come with all FL dies, use the gage to set up your FL die, when one uses a FL set up correctly it will resize the body of the case, the neck of the case, and bump the shoulder .001-.0015, this will ensure reliable feeding, prevent one from overworking the brass, and will make dam good shooting ammo. By using the headspace gage to set up your die you will notice that the brass gets longer before it get shorter, this is because the body is being resized before the shoulder comes in contact with the die, keep turning the die down until the desired amount of bump is achieved(.001-.0015), please do not use One-Shot, get some Imperial Sizing wax or Hornady Unique.
Re: Once fired brass, FL resize AND shoulder bump?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Get a Headspace gage and throw away the instructions that come with all FL dies, use the gage to set up your FL die, when one uses a FL set up correctly it will resize the body of the case, the neck of the case, and bump the shoulder .001-.0015, this will ensure reliable feeding, prevent one from overworking the brass, and will make dam good shooting ammo. By using the headspace gage to set up your die you will notice that the brass gets longer before it get shorter, this is because the body is being resized before the shoulder comes in contact with the die, keep turning the die down until the desired amount of bump is achieved(.001-.0015), please do not use One-Shot, get some Imperial Sizing wax or Hornady Unique. </div></div>
Can you recommend a head space gauge?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Get a Headspace gage and throw away the instructions that come with all FL dies, use the gage to set up your FL die, when one uses a FL set up correctly it will resize the body of the case, the neck of the case, and bump the shoulder .001-.0015, this will ensure reliable feeding, prevent one from overworking the brass, and will make dam good shooting ammo. By using the headspace gage to set up your die you will notice that the brass gets longer before it get shorter, this is because the body is being resized before the shoulder comes in contact with the die, keep turning the die down until the desired amount of bump is achieved(.001-.0015), please do not use One-Shot, get some Imperial Sizing wax or Hornady Unique. </div></div>
Can you recommend a head space gauge?
Re: Once fired brass, FL resize AND shoulder bump?
Check out these hornady products
http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/sid=68..._Set_w_Bushings
"This affordable headspace gauge set from Hornady Lock-N-Load Products (formerly Stoney Point) allows the handloader to measure changes to the headspace of cartridges with a dial/digital caliper. Different bushing sizes (depending on cartridge family) insert into the Hornady Lock-N-Load Comparator Body, which attaches to a caliper. This handloader can then measure the changes between fired and sized brass. this enables the handloader to adjust his sizing dies for a proper fit in his chamber. When a handloader oversizes his cases it can cause excessive headspace problems, one of which is to shorten the life of the brass.
The Hornady Lock-N-Load Headspace Gauge Set will allow the user to measure brass from the case head to the datum line on the case shoulder. Five bushing sizes allow you to measure the headspace on most bottleneck cartridges from 17 Remington through the belted magnums. The bushings are sold either with the Comparator Body or without the Comparator Body (for those who already have one). "
I have this tool and think its great. If you already own a hornady comparitor body you can just buy the inserts. The comparitor body also fits other bits such as hornadys bullet comparitors, to allow you to measure from the ogive.
Good bits of kit imo.
Check out these hornady products
http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/sid=68..._Set_w_Bushings
"This affordable headspace gauge set from Hornady Lock-N-Load Products (formerly Stoney Point) allows the handloader to measure changes to the headspace of cartridges with a dial/digital caliper. Different bushing sizes (depending on cartridge family) insert into the Hornady Lock-N-Load Comparator Body, which attaches to a caliper. This handloader can then measure the changes between fired and sized brass. this enables the handloader to adjust his sizing dies for a proper fit in his chamber. When a handloader oversizes his cases it can cause excessive headspace problems, one of which is to shorten the life of the brass.
The Hornady Lock-N-Load Headspace Gauge Set will allow the user to measure brass from the case head to the datum line on the case shoulder. Five bushing sizes allow you to measure the headspace on most bottleneck cartridges from 17 Remington through the belted magnums. The bushings are sold either with the Comparator Body or without the Comparator Body (for those who already have one). "
I have this tool and think its great. If you already own a hornady comparitor body you can just buy the inserts. The comparitor body also fits other bits such as hornadys bullet comparitors, to allow you to measure from the ogive.
Good bits of kit imo.
Re: Once fired brass, FL resize AND shoulder bump?
I use the RCBS Precision Mic and find it to be very accurate. I resize .004 on my gas gun.
I use the RCBS Precision Mic and find it to be very accurate. I resize .004 on my gas gun.
Re: Once fired brass, FL resize AND shoulder bump?
I use a Stoney Point, simple easy and repeatable, make sure you punch out the primers before taking measurements, primers can/do flow backwards and will skew the headspace readings
I use a Stoney Point, simple easy and repeatable, make sure you punch out the primers before taking measurements, primers can/do flow backwards and will skew the headspace readings
Re: Once fired brass, FL resize AND shoulder bump?
I'm new at this, and have a current post going on a related issue. The chamber on my Rem 700 is tight- so much so that the fire-formed brass, AND the FL sized brass, are a tight fit in the chamber. MY Hornady die needs to be ground to get the headspacing correct. Not much, but four or five thousandths. My take is that every gun- and it's chamber characteristics- are different.
I'm new at this, and have a current post going on a related issue. The chamber on my Rem 700 is tight- so much so that the fire-formed brass, AND the FL sized brass, are a tight fit in the chamber. MY Hornady die needs to be ground to get the headspacing correct. Not much, but four or five thousandths. My take is that every gun- and it's chamber characteristics- are different.
Re: Once fired brass, FL resize AND neck bump?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thefitter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Sorry. This is my maiden reloading attempt.
The question is if I'm FL re sizing why would I also bump the shoulder.
I was thinking about bumping the shoulder after the next firing.
</div></div>
FL sizing will bump the shoulder back. you can't FL size without setting the shoulder back to what is supposed to be close to min. SAMMI dimentions so that round will chamber in another rifle with a minimum chamber.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thefitter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Sorry. This is my maiden reloading attempt.
The question is if I'm FL re sizing why would I also bump the shoulder.
I was thinking about bumping the shoulder after the next firing.
</div></div>
FL sizing will bump the shoulder back. you can't FL size without setting the shoulder back to what is supposed to be close to min. SAMMI dimentions so that round will chamber in another rifle with a minimum chamber.
Re: Once fired brass, FL resize AND shoulder bump?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Check out these hornady products
http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/sid=68..._Set_w_Bushings
"This affordable headspace gauge set from Hornady Lock-N-Load Products (formerly Stoney Point) allows the handloader to measure changes to the headspace of cartridges with a dial/digital caliper. Different bushing sizes (depending on cartridge family) insert into the Hornady Lock-N-Load Comparator Body, which attaches to a caliper. This handloader can then measure the changes between fired and sized brass. this enables the handloader to adjust his sizing dies for a proper fit in his chamber. When a handloader oversizes his cases it can cause excessive headspace problems, one of which is to shorten the life of the brass.
The Hornady Lock-N-Load Headspace Gauge Set will allow the user to measure brass from the case head to the datum line on the case shoulder. Five bushing sizes allow you to measure the headspace on most bottleneck cartridges from 17 Remington through the belted magnums. The bushings are sold either with the Comparator Body or without the Comparator Body (for those who already have one). "
I have this tool and think its great. If you already own a hornady comparitor body you can just buy the inserts. The comparitor body also fits other bits such as hornadys bullet comparitors, to allow you to measure from the ogive.
Good bits of kit imo. </div></div>
I have a Sinclair comparitor body, I wonder if it will fit.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Check out these hornady products
http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/sid=68..._Set_w_Bushings
"This affordable headspace gauge set from Hornady Lock-N-Load Products (formerly Stoney Point) allows the handloader to measure changes to the headspace of cartridges with a dial/digital caliper. Different bushing sizes (depending on cartridge family) insert into the Hornady Lock-N-Load Comparator Body, which attaches to a caliper. This handloader can then measure the changes between fired and sized brass. this enables the handloader to adjust his sizing dies for a proper fit in his chamber. When a handloader oversizes his cases it can cause excessive headspace problems, one of which is to shorten the life of the brass.
The Hornady Lock-N-Load Headspace Gauge Set will allow the user to measure brass from the case head to the datum line on the case shoulder. Five bushing sizes allow you to measure the headspace on most bottleneck cartridges from 17 Remington through the belted magnums. The bushings are sold either with the Comparator Body or without the Comparator Body (for those who already have one). "
I have this tool and think its great. If you already own a hornady comparitor body you can just buy the inserts. The comparitor body also fits other bits such as hornadys bullet comparitors, to allow you to measure from the ogive.
Good bits of kit imo. </div></div>
I have a Sinclair comparitor body, I wonder if it will fit.
Re: Once fired brass, FL resize AND neck bump?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1sikpupi</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thefitter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Sorry. This is my maiden reloading attempt.
The question is if I'm FL re sizing why would I also bump the shoulder.
I was thinking about bumping the shoulder after the next firing.
</div></div>
FL sizing will bump the shoulder back. you can't FL size without setting the shoulder back to what is supposed to be close to min. SAMMI dimentions so that round will chamber in another rifle with a minimum chamber. </div></div>
Thanks. Now I just have to make sure I have my FL die set properly.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1sikpupi</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thefitter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Sorry. This is my maiden reloading attempt.
The question is if I'm FL re sizing why would I also bump the shoulder.
I was thinking about bumping the shoulder after the next firing.
</div></div>
FL sizing will bump the shoulder back. you can't FL size without setting the shoulder back to what is supposed to be close to min. SAMMI dimentions so that round will chamber in another rifle with a minimum chamber. </div></div>
Thanks. Now I just have to make sure I have my FL die set properly.
Re: Once fired brass, FL resize AND neck bump?
if you set your die up so the shell holder contacts the bottom of the die when you size a case, that will produce full length sized brass. that brass SHOULD chamber in any rifle chambered for that cartridge.
this is the easiest way to get sized brass, but don't forget case lube...
if you set your die up so the shell holder contacts the bottom of the die when you size a case, that will produce full length sized brass. that brass SHOULD chamber in any rifle chambered for that cartridge.
this is the easiest way to get sized brass, but don't forget case lube...
Re: Once fired brass, FL resize AND neck bump?
True, provided the FL die was made to correct dimensions AND the rifle in question is made to SAAMI specs.
True, provided the FL die was made to correct dimensions AND the rifle in question is made to SAAMI specs.
Re: Once fired brass, FL resize AND neck bump?
Do a Google search on the <span style="font-weight: bold">Digital Headspace Gauge</span>. Unlike ordinary headspace gauges, it is designed for reloading - not for fitting rifle barrels.
Your fired case is like a perfect casting of your chamber. Simply calibrate this gauge to <span style="font-weight: bold">YOUR</span> rifle by inserting one of your fired cases, and press the "zero" button. Then insert one of your handloads, and the gauge will display your chamber clearance "at the shoulder".
This clearance should be kept to a minimum, like -.002" or less. This requires going beyond the instructions that come with reloading dies. One FL die does the job when it's properly setup.
The Digital Headspace Gauge shows how YOUR handloads fit in YOUR particular chamber. <span style="text-decoration: underline">Then you can adjust your die height to make your handloads fit perfectly </span>- without guessing. The Digital Headspace Gauge needs no attachments or special bushings, and unlike the RCBS Pecision Mic ..... the Digital Headspace Gauge works on <span style="font-weight: bold">ALL</span> different calibers. It can also measure the bullet "jump" to your rifling.
Do a Google search on the <span style="font-weight: bold">Digital Headspace Gauge</span>. Unlike ordinary headspace gauges, it is designed for reloading - not for fitting rifle barrels.
Your fired case is like a perfect casting of your chamber. Simply calibrate this gauge to <span style="font-weight: bold">YOUR</span> rifle by inserting one of your fired cases, and press the "zero" button. Then insert one of your handloads, and the gauge will display your chamber clearance "at the shoulder".
This clearance should be kept to a minimum, like -.002" or less. This requires going beyond the instructions that come with reloading dies. One FL die does the job when it's properly setup.
The Digital Headspace Gauge shows how YOUR handloads fit in YOUR particular chamber. <span style="text-decoration: underline">Then you can adjust your die height to make your handloads fit perfectly </span>- without guessing. The Digital Headspace Gauge needs no attachments or special bushings, and unlike the RCBS Pecision Mic ..... the Digital Headspace Gauge works on <span style="font-weight: bold">ALL</span> different calibers. It can also measure the bullet "jump" to your rifling.
Re: Once fired brass, FL resize AND neck bump?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1sikpupi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">way to overwelm a new reloader so you can peddle your wares here without paying dues...
</div></div>
Can't get any more overwhelmed than I already am.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1sikpupi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">way to overwelm a new reloader so you can peddle your wares here without paying dues...
</div></div>
Can't get any more overwhelmed than I already am.
