One set of rules for all comps

#51
Re: One set of rules for all comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hypertex</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01...

We don't need a governing body. </div></div>

I agree that the NRA or other body is not needed or desired. The ten commandments are common sense, but eventually needed to be codified.

But promoting anarchy so openly and in a public forum! tsk,tsk,tsk [/quote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hypertex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[quote=Rob01...

We don't need a governing body. </div></div>

I agree that the NRA or other body is not needed or desired. The ten commandments are common sense, but eventually needed to be codified.

But promoting anarchy so openly and in a public forum! tsk,tsk,tsk </div></div>

Your statements show that you do not know how toploaders work. You know - those rifles in widespread LE service that you suggest should be rendered extinct.

Figure out how to get the rounds out of an ADL or BDL where there's no hinged floorplate, and then explain how "bolt up mag out" is a whole lot safer than simply leaving the bolt back in this circumstance.

Then explain why leaving the bolt back with a round in the magazine or well is a dangerous condition and while a shooter is moving, cannot be tolerated.

You are evading questions, and are not backing the positions you are taking with any facts or good reasons.

You say you neither need nor desire a governing body, yet in the very next sentence you advocate codifying rules - <span style="font-weight: bold">BECOMING</span> a governing body.

I can't wait to see the response when you hand the paper to a match director and state that he has to follow the rules you are providing, ..........or else.

This is a useless and circular discussion, and serves no purpose other than to inflate the chairperson's post count.

--Fargo007
 
#52
Re: One set of rules for all comps

It's not anarchy. There are rules in how a match is run and the safety aspects of the match. They are just the rules of the people running the matches. They have them for the safety of the shooters. Do you honestly think any match director wants something to happen to a shooter? They make rules that they see as fit for the safety of the shooters and I have never been to a match where if a safety issue is noticed and brought up it was not taken care of.

There will be differences in the rules from one match to another. They don't need to be the same as long as they are safe.

Obviously from the posts the overall feeling of this community doesn't come in line with your feelings on the matter.
 
#53
Re: One set of rules for all comps

And yes, I will admit that stage design and rules are sometime engineered to level the playing field, and this may sometimes seem to be discriminatory against semi's, but I personally have made stages such that a DBM on a boltgun is not an advantage over a top-feeder.

The rules are the rules, and in most cases they are very well thought out.

Basically, the only rule I ran into that I would (and do) run differently is to have the action completely empty when changing ports on a barricade, and I have ran into that being a problem at one match. With a little aforethought, it wasn't much of a problem-I shot the "roof" to action open on a empty mag, and moved to teh barricade and single fed a round into mag and dropped bolt when on target, repeated for each bolt and then repeated the process for the end of the stage that was moving form tire to tire.

I have already confessed and apologized elsewhere for blaming my poor performance that particular weekend on the rules being "anti gas gun", and now use my experience of said match as a training tool to improve my mental game.
Never again will I let a malfunction or challenge throw my game to the extent that I did there. I am embarassed that I openly bitched about it, but I have learned from it since. Last monthly match here, I had 7 case head seperations, but did not let them get to me and I still placed fifth after blanking multiple stages-I made the shots that went off count and had an better than usual hit ratio of the shots I did get off. Valuable lesson in mental management learned (and a lesson in checking chamber depth on a new barrel
wink.gif
).

As long as safety is maintained, let the MD's set their rules as thye see fit.
 
#54
Re: One set of rules for all comps

First off, the anarchy comment was meant as humor. Your comment is the definition of anarchy though, the good kind of anarchy where everyone works together. As far as the match director, wouldn't his job be easier if there were a simple set of rules, recognized by the community at large, his peers, that could be cited? The competitor would know, before the match, that certain basic rules will be observed. That is actually the point of this thread.

The list at the top of this thread is being compiled from the posts in this topic. That list is short compared to this
 
#55
Re: One set of rules for all comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hypertex</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> That list is short compared to this </div></div>

That's actually a pretty set of range rules....
 
#56
Re: One set of rules for all comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hypertex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">First off, the anarchy comment was meant as humor. Your comment is the definition of anarchy though, the good kind of anarchy where everyone works together. As far as the match director, wouldn't his job be easier if there were a simple set of rules, recognized by the community at large, his peers, that could be cited? The competitor would know, before the match, that certain basic rules will be observed. That is actually the point of this thread.

The list at the top of this thread is being compiled from the posts in this topic. That list is short compared to this </div></div>

Here's an even shorter one with a proven record of working extremely well.

http://www.nrahq.org/education/guide.asp

Safety rules and match conduct rules are often discussed together but they are different things.

You'll hear about the rules, whatever they are at a mandatory safety briefing, conducted before any match. I won't ever rely on "the community" to already know and follow even these three basic rules without expressly pointing them out.

--Fargo007
 
#57
Re: One set of rules for all comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fargo007</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I won't ever rely on "the community" to already know and follow even these three basic rules without expressly pointing them out.

--Fargo007
</div></div>

wise man....

Funny part is the majority of shooters at matches haven't or won't see this little thread.....
 
#58
Re: One set of rules for all comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hypertex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">First off, the anarchy comment was meant as humor. Your comment is the definition of anarchy though, the good kind of anarchy where everyone works together. As far as the match director, wouldn't his job be easier if there were a simple set of rules, recognized by the community at large, his peers, that could be cited? The competitor would know, before the match, that certain basic rules will be observed. That is actually the point of this thread.

The list at the top of this thread is being compiled from the posts in this topic. That list is short compared to this </div></div>

Guess I missed the humor. I just don't find it funny when someone is trying to bring in an unneeded bureaucracy to a sport I love and have been shooting for years.

A basic gear list of what is allowed and not for that match and basic match overview is all that is needed before a match. When you arrive on the first day you get the match briefing including safety and basic rules. When you get to the stage you will get the specific stage rules. Has worked just fine in my years of competing.

No, the match director's job wouldn't be easier as he would have to set up his match around those rules. It's his match, his rules. The link you showed is how they do theirs. Others do it differently. As long as you know when you need to then all is well.



 
#59
Re: One set of rules for all comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fargo007</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Your statements show that you do not know how toploaders work. You know - those rifles in widespread LE service that you suggest should be rendered extinct.

Figure out how to get the rounds out of an ADL or BDL where there's no hinged floorplate, and then explain how "bolt up mag out" is a whole lot safer than simply leaving the bolt back in this circumstance.

Then explain why leaving the bolt back with a round in the magazine or well is a dangerous condition and while a shooter is moving, cannot be tolerated.

You are evading questions, and are not backing the positions you are taking with any facts or good reasons.

<span style="color: #333399">Indeed, hmm? All rifles, "bolt back mag out" means unload your rifles. It's common sense that in this situation, a top-loading rifle would not be exempt from unloading. Danger has nothing to do with it; unload means unload. If you cannot comply, bye bye</span>



You say you neither need nor desire a governing body, yet in the very next sentence you advocate codifying rules - <span style="font-weight: bold">BECOMING</span> a governing body.

<span style="color: #333399">
Absolutely, they are listed at the top of this topic. Does advocating a written list of safety rules make one a governing body? I suggest that it does not and should remain a peer reviewed process.
</span>

I can't wait to see the response when you hand the paper to a match director and state that he has to follow the rules you are providing, ..........or else.

<span style="color: #333399">
My feelings are that I would like to know that a minimum set of safety rules will be observed <span style="text-decoration: underline">before</span> I consider participating. The match director would have already considered this before offering the match to the public.
</span>

This is a useless and circular discussion, and serves no purpose other than to inflate the chairperson's post count. <span style="color: #333399">
you heard it here, this is a thread on safety, and people keep posting "I will run my matches the way I want." Why can't your competitors know the safety rules before applying Fargo007?

If the discussion resumes about safety rules, I'll stop posting to try to steer us back on topic. Regardless of how many posts it takes, WTF, over?
</span>



--Fargo007
</div></div>
 
#60
Re: One set of rules for all comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fargo007</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I won't ever rely on "the community" to already know and follow even these three basic rules without expressly pointing them out.

--Fargo007
</div></div>

wise man....

Funny part is the majority of shooters at matches haven't or won't see this little thread..... </div></div>

This topic worked for a while. Some rules were mentioned. Bad idea on my part: no interest.
 
#61
Re: One set of rules for all comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scottmilk9</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OH yeah, FARGO, the NRA has no business trying to tell us how to run our matches. Keep them out!! Theres a reason why all the NRA sports are starting to become antiquated, i.e. smallbore/olympic pistol/standard high power..... </div></div>

2nd this
 
#62
Re: One set of rules for all comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hypertex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
................. Does advocating a written list of safety rules make one a governing body? I suggest that it does not and should remain a peer reviewed process.
[/color]
</div></div>

<morose tropical music plays in the background>

<span style="font-style: italic">"........Hypertex, the tribe has spoken."</span>

<the flame emanating from the muzzle of a toploading .308 is ceremoniously extinguished>

--Fargo007
 
#63
Re: One set of rules for all comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hypertex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bad idea on my part: no interest.</div></div>

Agreed.
 
#64
Re: One set of rules for all comps

Coming from the 3-Gun practical shooting world, this question doesn't make a whole lot of sense. We (practical shooting, including pistol and 3-Gun) have already worked out a set of safety protocols that have worked for decades-- not to mention scoring and fairness principles.

To be honest, some of the long-range rifle matches do not have staff with this background and it shows in terms of lax safety and downright weird scoring.

The "outlaw" nature of practical long-range shooting is one of its advantages, just like it is an advantage for 3-Gun. By "outlaw", I mean no over-arching organization that dictates rules. If we go back and look at 3-Gun matches over the last ten years, all the major matches (RM3G, SMM3G, FB3G, MGM) are based on the core IPSC/USPSA safety rules, with a few modifications, some of which have evolved over time. There is no over-arching organization that "rules" them (such as USPSA); however, there is definitely a peer review/feedback/modification process that goes on amongst match directors.

Some examples of divergence from USPSA rules include: pre-loading shotguns, safety protocols around abandoned guns, hot reholstering, and types of targets that are used, and scoring systems. Shooters should know enough to demand the base standard of safety protocols in place. Match directors who do not incorporate the "standard practices" are just inviting disaster. On the other side, it is not chaos because it helps everyone if divisions are substantially identical from big match to big match, and this is not done prescriptively but iteratively as the MD's hone in on the best breakdown. Now in long-range, historically, there has essentially been just one "open" division, with the only restrictions being for safety reasons (ie rifle must have functioning safety) and caliber restrictions to prevent target system damage (or danger fan issues).

I agree with Rob 100% in that communicating the expectations, requirements, rules, and procedures is the match director's responsibility. I've seen some match web sites that had virtually no information about match format, what guns would be required or allowed, etc. There are already plenty of rule-sets out there a potential MD can read and learn from, and if they don't and end up with poor safety, it means they are just doing a half assed job.

As as a MD involved with 3-Gun, multi-gun, and LR formats, I want to make the safety rules clear. Keep in mind other than a number of safety rules that should be countable on one hand, much of safety is encapsulated in the stage briefing and specific RO behavior.

I also do not want to tell everyone exactly what to bring-- I'll tell them the challenges they will have to meet and what equipment is prohibited, and let them solve some of those problems by thinking about them. I am not about telling you how to do things or what tools to use, or what you have to carry: that's part of succeeding at the match. I'll only do so for safety and procedural reasons.

The other thing that is relevant here is that the facility/geography available to each match can dramatically change what specific safety rules must be in place, what stage procedures are viable, and what match formats will work. As a specific example, what is possible at the RM3G Nat'ls at Raton is much different than what you can run in 8 square range bays, just like what we do at the Sporting Rifle Match and the Steel Safari & Team Challenge in Logan are much different than what you can do on a High-Power range.

So I guess in summary, this is really old news to people who have been around practical shooting. There is some value to central rules (USPSA), but a lot of downsides for 3-Gun, multigun, and long-range matches. The safety issues have been sorted out already and are effectively standardized by anyone who has been paying attention.
 
#66
Re: One set of rules for all comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's not anarchy. There are rules in how a match is run and the safety aspects of the match. They are just the rules of the people running the matches. They have them for the safety of the shooters. Do you honestly think any match director wants something to happen to a shooter? They make rules that they see as fit for the safety of the shooters and I have never been to a match where if a safety issue is noticed and brought up it was not taken care of.

There will be differences in the rules from one match to another. They don't need to be the same as long as they are safe.

Obviously from the posts the overall feeling of this community doesn't come in line with your feelings on the matter. </div></div>

+1 on this.

Safety rules and SOPs are tailored to the event and facility.

Our club runs 18 monthly matches, 1 new shooter clinic, and 1 Annual TBRC a year. Our safety rules and SOPs will change slightly between all three events due to the nature of the event and level of shooters the event attracts. That being said, the core of our safety rules and SOPs never change.

People that have shot with us, know we are anal about safety in NorCal. Chamber flags, muzzle control, and bolts BACK (not just open)and finger out of the trigger gaurd during any movement or transition is the core of our safety rules and SOPs.

Then there are rules/SOPs that are specific to the range our competitors are on. For example: Muzzle up on our ranges where we have a concrete deck, but muzzle up or down on our 1K range since it a soft (all dirt/natural) deck.

One set of rules and safety standard will not work for our discipline. The matches, ranges/AOs, COFs, and hardware requirements vary. What is considered safe on your range, may not be safe on mine.

I am sure that most would agree all the different flavors of matches in our discipline is what makes it what it is. I wouldn't want to see our game turn into something like HP or F-Class.

Also, there is a lot more that come into play to making an event safe than just having some rules and sops written down on paper.

Vu









 
#67
Re: One set of rules for all comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Also, there is a lot more that come into play to making an event safe than just having some rules and sops written down on paper.
</div></div>

+1

The stage design itself is more important for safety than the match "safety rules". Things like the 180* rule are good but not sufficient when you have team matches with multiple active shooters and lateral or especially forward movement involved in the stage.
 
#68
Re: One set of rules for all comps

A few key elements an MD needs to look into IMO are:

Range commands: Are all of your ROs using the same wording and sequence in their range commands?

Is the command to fire the same across the board for all you ROs?

COF (course of fire) and prop design: Just to add to what Taliv already mentioned with movement.

Are your COFs designed so they can be safely shot in all weather conditions. A prop that may be bad ass when dry, could be a death trap in the rain.

If you have multiple shooters, or stages being shot at the same time, is everyone safe if a shooter happens to break the 180 rule?

Simple things such as can your ROs be heard clearly when a shooter wears ear plug with muffs can become hazardous if over looked.

We have been doing this for 6+ years now, and our Safety Rules/SOPs and RO SOPs still get reviewed and updated.



 
#70
Re: One set of rules for all comps

Variety is one of the things I like about this disipline. I enjoy reading a match description and deciding what type of rifle and gear will work best, sometimes I get it right, sometimes I get it wrong...either way, I learn something for the next time.

I have never been to a match where I felt safety was not the highest priority.

If I were to even find a situation where I felt it was unsafe, I would leave. If a MD were to run a match like that, he would have a hard time getting competitors.

And honestly, the "rules" you set out earlier are pretty much common across all shooting disiplines and all shooters...muzzle dicipline, trigger disipline, assumption that a firearm is always loaded, etc.

Which brings me to the biggest reason I have settled into this disipline, the level of shooters I compete with is the top of the line. You don't often run into a squid that does dumb shit with their firearm. Everyone knows what they are doing and are respectful of others and their safety, noone is going to see an unsafe situation and not say anything about it.

Summary: non-issue...leave it alone.
 
#72
Re: One set of rules for all comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bolt open, loaded mag in is inherently safer than a semi with the bolt help open.

A boltgun with the bolt open cannot be bumped in such a way as to make the bolt go forward into battery chambering a live round.

Not so with the semi (of an AR design for sure, and any other that use a small lever to hold the bolt back against spring tension).

-that's pretty much why the mags have to come out.</div></div>

I think there's still paint on my scope from shoving my bolt gun through the port so fast/hard in NM.
I know if that were an AR with the bolt locked back over a loaded mag that I would have jarred the bolt from it's catch and ended up with a loaded rifle.
 
#73
Re: One set of rules for all comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are your COFs designed so they can be safely shot in all weather conditions. A prop that may be bad ass when dry, could be a death trap in the rain.</div></div>

I remember running up an icy ramp in Mesa a few years ago on the first stage of the day, before the sun was out to melt the ice.
Lots of fun with a loaded carbine...
 
#74
Re: One set of rules for all comps

I would just point out that USPSA/IPSC pistol, USPSA/IPSC rifle, international combat shotgun, 3-Gun, IDPA, and the other run-n-gun matches do NOT require action open. You can move with the firearm pointed in a safe direction with your finger off the trigger, you don't even need the safety on.

The only reason IMO that "we" have more stringent safety rules for precision rifles is that there are too many idiots who have mucked up their guns so the striker can fall or the trigger is too light. The right way to remedy this is to use regular action shooting rules and ensure rifles are in a safe operating condition. That means you cannot make the striker fall by butt stroking the rifle (or anything else other than pulling the trigger) and the sear is set up to never fall when you run the bolt. Either of those will get you a DQ from my match, and if I find out before you AD, you can't continue until you repair your rifle.
 
#76
Re: One set of rules for all comps

This is a very informative thread, and being new to the sport and a TOP LOADER at present, I usually don't load more rounds than I need for each target of the stage. Say you have a stage with five targets and you move to five different shooting positions. If I am to take two shots at each target, I only load two rounds and shoot that target, open the bolt, and move to the next position load two more and shoot, etc. I haven't run into any time issues doing this even at Gunsite.
 
#77
Re: One set of rules for all comps

I actually had forgot about this thread, but to address the top loaders.

Most work exactly as posted above, they only load what they need, and in cases of speed and movement will single load most of the time. The issue usually is not the rifle as much as where to keep their rounds. I have seen people use a variety of carriers, they put the Federal Plastic Holders on their belt, etc, they just draw exactly what they need.

Is it a disadvantage, sure it could be, like anything else, but it is a also a personal choice. How and with what you use is a choice, how efficiently you run it a product of training and practice. I have also seen guys with a round or two extra just drop the floor plate and move on. Whatever the COF and the MD calls for...

Triggers are a huge issue with precision rifle shooters. People just don't get and feel they only work well with 1.5# triggers and are usually an accident or ND waiting to happen. You can't regulate very well who is running what trigger and using what pull weight. Guys are all about these light bench rest triggers, and the lighter they are, the more chance of a problem.

We have seen a lot of issues with bolt guns, from barrels spinning loose, to broken extractors, etc. Generally you see more problems because of light triggers, reloads, etc that hurt a bolt gun, than people having issues with carbines. Even with the rules clearly laid they will try to squeeze in whatever they can. Especially if they traveled far, spent too much money and they gun breaks on the second or third stage. There is always one guy who will follow you around trying to get back in with something else, or to use their broken scope hoping to hold the reticle to 1000 yards or something.

Someone above said something about never feeling unsafe at a tactical (rifle) match, I can say I have... not fun.
 
#78
Re: One set of rules for all comps

In principle, I don't have a problem with people travelling with a loaded round in the chamber and bolt up, or safety on (autos), finger outside the trigger guard prior to moving.
 
#79
Re: One set of rules for all comps

I am moving in the direction of having a tech inspection, much like those found in motorsports, e.g. enduro/desert motorcycle races. For now I give discretion to the RO to stop the use of any rifle or ammunition deemed unsafe for any reason, which explicitly includes,
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any firearm that can be demonstrated by any RO or match staff to have a hammer/striker that will fall without the trigger being pressed shall be deemed unsafe and may not be used in the match until repaired. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All firearms must have a functioning safety, subject to verification by an RO at any time. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ammunition that must be "fired" to be unloaded once chambered is declared to be unsafe and may not be used in this match. All firearms must be able to be completely unloaded without firing a round. </div></div>
This should get people warmed up to a higher standard before I go to a tech inspection that includes a drop test.

 
#80
Re: One set of rules for all comps

I should clarify the "never felt unsafe" comment. I have never felt unsafe with the rules of a match, I have experienced unsafe situations. It has always been due to someone not following said rules...not much you can do about that but keep your eyes open for infractions. No set of standardized rules will make people adhere to them.
 
#82
Re: One set of rules for all comps

If the rules aren't skewed towards bolt guns and you really want to level the playing field then add a rapid fire stage into the mix.
 
#83
Re: One set of rules for all comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zak Smith</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've seen a match director break the basic, fundamental gun safety rules, and instruct shooters to do the same. We didn't go back to that match...</div></div>

I was at that match as well as a large number of members from the board . The stage in question was an absolute violation of all 4 basic firearms saftey rules and some of us there did not do what the match director wanted because of this .
 
#84
Re: One set of rules for all comps

This in no way is a personal "jab" at hypertex. Just a matter of fact observation.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hypertex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So let's see what we have so far:

1.Bolt back, mag out when moving.</div></div>
Are you talking about when moving from one stage/ venue to another? OK
If your talking about during the COF of a stage that would depend on the movement required.
EX: If you are required to fire 2 shots from location A (standing at a 2nd story "window"), move to loc B (Prone from a doorway 6' from the window)and fire 2 shots, stand and exit the building via the 2nd story balcony by rope/ladder and crawl into loc C (a culvert) 10 feet to the opposite end to fire your last 2 shots.
There is absolutely no reason to require mag out when moving from A to B. B to C? sure. Your making "RULES" that dont apply to EVERY situation (possibly only rules that apply to the kind of matches you personaly shoot at?) and thats no good.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hypertex</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> "Originally Posted By: fargo007
Sobr lays it out well. It strains credulity to guard against the circumstance that an opened bolt action rifle will suddenly close and lock unintentionally, forcing a round into the chamber and firing it."

No straining required, unloaded means unloaded. Bolt back, mag out infers being unloaded(but we press-check and visually check too)</div></div>
Here again, is YOUR version of unloaded. Some poeople's version (In some scenarios), is mag in, bolt back. And your reasoning behind it, like Fargo stated is "guard against the circumstance that an opened bolt action rifle will suddenly close and lock unintentionally, forcing a round into the chamber and firing it."
Given mag out is another step to insure this wont happen but the likelyhood of that actually happening is about the same as having a circus midget pop out of the ground while your not looking and close your bolt on you. Why not go a step further and require the firing pin be removed from the firearm before you move from your firing position. Once the gun is safe its safe. Adding more requirements to make it "more safe" is not needed. eventualy well get to the point where the shooter is required to carry a hand press and powder and bullets in seperate containers to be assembled one at a time just before loading it into the gun to make sure the round doesnt go off unintentionaly. (OK, I'm obviuosly getting carried away but thats my point)[Seriously though...watch out for Circus Midgets. You never see them til its too late.]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hypertex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">2.Rifle to be carried in a manner which leaves the hands free, muzzle up/down</div></div>
The match I help run and the other match I shoot at dont require hands free and never will. The Majority of the shooter dont even own a sling and the only time you see a sling on a rifle is when a few guys pull them out to shoot unsupported. Then they come right back off and back in the ruck sack.
#2 might be better stated as "Rifle to be carried in a SAFE manner."
When moving to another location I personaly carry my rifle inside my Voodoo drag bag/ mat. No reason for me to buy a sling just to move from one location to another. And even though that could be considered "hands free" its not muzzle up/ down so it still doesnt conform with your rule.
Again your adding your preference of carrying a weapon, not taking into account other ways to accoplish the same result, "Safety".
People running the matches KNOW what safety looks like. No reason to impose your (and by "Your" I mean a commity of people who are <span style="font-weight: bold">sure</span> they know whats best for everyone) personal version on everyone.

You state there is no uniformity in the matches. I disagree. The uniformity is that each match director and the RO's are there to insure everyone stays safe. The fact that it isnt done in the exact way YOU prefer doesnt make it wrong. It doesnt have to be written in stone.
If you feel the need to make a Stone tablet for the shooting sports to follow it should read " Safety, Safety, Safety, or go home." That about covers it.
If you go to a match where safety isnt being enforced, say something and if it isnt remedied, go home. I sure wouldnt stick around at a match I didnt feel safe at.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hypertex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">9.No alcohol on the range until all clear is called for the day.</div></div>
I'm assuming your range doesnt care about alcohol on the property? Ours does. It isnt aloud inside the gates. So you can scratch #9. maybe you caould change it to "No alcohol during a match" if it makes you feel better to have an alcohol rule. Personaly, it just seems like common sense not to drink while playing with weapons. No reason to make it a written rule. Making "rules" to govern common sence is...well...What the liberals do make everyone else follow what they see as "the right way".

You want to try to make a set of standard "RULES" for EVERY match to follow? be perpared to spend 5 hours at the safety meeting to read them all and cover every contingency you can imagine. There will always be someone who says "Yea, BUT what about if..." and there you go. Time to add another rule to cover THAT what if.

We have plenty of Liberals trying to make unneeded "rules" aka Laws for us the way it is. No reason to start doing it to ourselves.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hypertex</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> for any of you that have been to training or a comp at RO know that Jason's safety briefing is the standard all others should be held to. </div></div>

For those of us who HAVENT been to Rifles Only, please let us know the details. If it really is the standard we should all be held to lets have it.
I would LOVE to know exactly what is said at RO's safety breifings. I'm sure our safety meetings before a match could be improved upon and I'd LOVE to hear RO's.
Or if you know a way for me to get a written copy of it that would be great too.
Its hard to live up to a standard if no one tells you what the standard is.
wink.gif


As a matter of fact I'd love to see a written copy of ANYONE and everyone's safety breifings to perhaps make ours better.
 
#85
Re: One set of rules for all comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally Posted By: hypertex
"Originally Posted By: fargo007
Sobr lays it out well. It strains credulity to guard against the circumstance that an opened bolt action rifle will suddenly close and lock unintentionally, forcing a round into the chamber and firing it."

No straining required, unloaded means unloaded. Bolt back, mag out infers being unloaded(but we press-check and visually check too)</div></div>

Just to clarify, I wasn't disagreeing with the definition of unloaded. I stated that during the actual conduct of a stage with some position changes the comprehensive "unloading" described isn't a necessary lowest common denominator that cries out to be imposed on anyone acting differently. We agree on that.

LOL --- I'm always on the lookout for circus midgets. Sons-a-bitches are everywhere........

--Fargo007
 
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