Gunsmithing Opinions on buying a used Hurco KMB1 CNC?

[Kelly The Lionfish Hunter]

I have an opportunity to buy one of these, used, for $6000. The two guys that used it decided to close their shop and sell their gear. They said they have updated the software for it and would be willing to coach me in the programming and use of the thing until I'm proficient, which is included in the price.

I know nothing about CNCs and am just getting into fabricating using these machines. My question is, is this a fair price for the grade of machine this is?

I'm also open to the idea of buying something new, with a warranty, for around the same price. It should be capable of milling a new rifle receiver sized part with all of its nook and crannies.

Any advice on new ones that will serve my purposes for under 10k?

 

[CS223]

Re: Opinions on buying a used Hurco KMB1 CNC?

In the same price range is the smaller Tormach and probably a Bridgeport Boss. The BP Boss & KMB1 are essentially converted knee mills. I believe there are a number of KMB1 owners in the Hurco forum on CNCzone.com. Seems to be a good bit of user support just from what I've seen. You might cruise Ebay and see what some have sold for. Also check the price of the tool holders while your at it. If the machine comes nicely equipped for $6k and has been operational and had regular maintenance, it's probably a fair deal. If it looks like hell, then you might be buying someones problems. Also keep in mind, unless I'm mistaken, the KMB1 doesn't have an automatic tool changer so it still requires some hands on effort.

Keep in mind too that you'll have to either do a lot of your more complex programming with g-code or invest in a CAD/CAM package which can easily be $3k or more.

 

[LRI]

Re: Opinions on buying a used Hurco KMB1 CNC?

Cyle Miller, former owner of Miller Arms in St Onge SD has used Hurco machines for years and swears by them.

If the ways are in good shape, the spindle's quiet, and the ball screws aren't shot, then chances are it's a decent enough machine.

CNC is easy. If a guy can learn spanish, he can learn FANUC.

Just a language. . .


Good luck and hope it works out for you.

C

 

[Kelly The Lionfish Hunter]

Re: Opinions on buying a used Hurco KMB1 CNC?

Cool. Thanks for ya'lls input. This thing is supposed to have been used regularly with very little issues and I'm not sure about the tooling it has. He was touting how easy the programming is on the thing saying it prompted him with simple questions to program a design into it. He said if you wanted to drill equally spaced holes around the center of something, you tell it where to put the center hole and it gives you a menu of sorts to decide what you want to next after the initial hole is drilled. Intuitive software, I guess, is the way I took it.

I'll give it good going over and look for screw and nut marring, new parts, etc. and ask about any specific repairs its had, etc, take notes, then research what I learned and make an offer if everything is in order. I just can't afford to buy a piece of shit machine the first time out. There's just too many expenses getting into this to have to worry about the machine failing.

Thanks again guys.

Almost forgot, what's the difference in a knee mill and a regular mill? What are the benfits and negatives of each kind?

 

[CS223]

Re: Opinions on buying a used Hurco KMB1 CNC?

Knee mill verses a CNC VMC "Vertical Machining Center" A CNC knee mill has limited spindle travel in the Z direction, the coarse Z movement comes from the "knee" to which the table is mounted. Since it has a lot of mass associated with it, it doesn't move very fast, gravity works against it. In a VMC, the spindle head moves up & down and the table is stationary in Z, gravity works to it's advantage. In addition, this is a little less rigidity associated with the spindle on a knee mill especially when it's extended and with the overarm that supports the head.

Hurco uses both NC and their own "Conversational" language. Conversational is designed to be programed at the control and will handle most of your 2.5D parts. If you want something like a 3D solid model, lets say something like a handset for a phone where you have varying contours then you'll need software to produce the code for that.

Pick up a copy of Peter Smid's book on CNC programming, it will help with a lot of the basics as well as programming.

 

[Kelly The Lionfish Hunter]

Re: Opinions on buying a used Hurco KMB1 CNC?

Excellent, thank you sir!

 

[LRI]

Re: Opinions on buying a used Hurco KMB1 CNC?

My advice:

If at all possible buy something with either a FANUC or HAAS control. Both use legit G code. Some manufacturer's use thier own proprietary "conversational" language, but once you get into G code/Fanuc the conversational stuff is more trouble than its worth IMHO.

Much nicer to sit my fat arse in a chair and ding out code than it is to stand in front of a machine all afternoon with a calculator/drawing trying to sort out endpoints, arc centers, etc.

Basic CAM software packages aren't that expensive anymore. Especially for 2D machining. As mentioned, surface modeling, splines, circular hole interpolation, etc is more in the domain of multi axis and a dedicated, stand alone PC set up with the right hardware to drive the models, code, etc.

CAD/CAM uses video cards quite different from the ones used for gaming. (learned that the hard way)

Good luck and welcome. Once you get the jist of it, you'll be hooked!

C

 

[gregt]

Re: Opinions on buying a used Hurco KMB1 CNC?

I bought a little Tormach 1100 late last year as a bit of a toy and it hasn't stopped since. Realistically, to buy one and have it set up to do some real work you're looking at 12 grand or so. For that price though you have a 4 axis machine that can do some nice work. If you were going to run a machine flat out doing production, you'd go for something bigger but for prototyping and fiddly stuff, it can't be beaten. I use it most days for work in my engine shop that I never even thought about when I bought it.

For a second hand machine, particularly an old one, do some research for spare parts. Computer boards and the like can be pretty pricey if you can find them and they're usually the same age as what you're replacing. I just bought a Cincinnati Sabre 750 which is a mid 90's model. There's a lot of spares around for them and this machine came out of a university so it hasn't been worked hard and I know a few of the blokes who used it. I've priced up a retrofit for the controller and even with that included it's a cheap machine if it ever needs it. All I keep thinking of is the PC I owned in 1995 and how it would be running now.

I suppose the benefit of buying the one you mentioned is if you can get it set up and running and get some training in your workshop. That is invaluable.

Chad is dead right above, get a machine that will run proper g code. It's nice to be able to touch up generated code or just run it straight into the machine from a CAM program. If you look around and you haven't got overly complicated parts to make, you can pick up a very usable CAM program to make 2.5d parts for $200 or so, sheetcam is worth a look, I don't think you could beat it for the money.

Cheers,
Greg

 

[Kelly The Lionfish Hunter]

Re: Opinions on buying a used Hurco KMB1 CNC?

I guess I'll pass on this machine then for a few reasons.

#1 I only have about $7000 saved right now for one and I want to buy one machine to use for the next 10 years but I can keep saving and in a few months afford what I really need.

#2 I can wait on just the right deal on just the right machine. Time is not of the essence.

#3 I'll need this machine to turn out 3D parts like a gas gun receiver and I don't think this one will do that per ya'lls posts.

Thank God I have ya'll to learn me on these things because it would take me a chitload longer to get just this level of insight on my own. Thank you!

I'll check out the Tormach 1100 and consider only machines that use gcode. I had intended on buying a dedicated PC or laptop for the thing so I'm glad I decided on that already.

I think I might offer to contract with these guys the designs that I want prototyped, if they'll go for it. I kind of doubt they will since I won't be buying their machine and they're retiring.

Do any of you do small work like that for customers?

 

[300sniper]

Re: Opinions on buying a used Hurco KMB1 CNC?

i've been using a tormach for a few years now. while it has been a great machine and is more than capable of doing full 4 axis work, it is slow and small. although some people are using them for production, i would not get one with the intention of producing receivers.

the advantages of it are the price is affordable for a new machine with warranty, some of the best customer service in any industry, it fits in a garage, it's light enough that a few people with some creativity can move it around/load/unload from a low trailer, has many great accessories available, and it can run off of typical household power supply. the disadvantages of it are the limited work envelope, lighter weight means that it is less rigid than a full size machine, max 5100 rpm spindle speed, 90 ipm rapids (like watching paint dry), no tool changer (although i see they are working on one, but it will likely cost as much as the machine).

for hobby and prototype use, it is a great machine. for full production, i'd seek out a second hand true vmc provided i had the space and power to run it.

 

[Kelly The Lionfish Hunter]

Re: Opinions on buying a used Hurco KMB1 CNC?

My intention is to to develop prototypes for myself and make a little money doing the same for small inventors and gunsmiths, etc. who don't have a CNC to kill 2 birds with 1 stone; make a little back on the machine and help the little dude that has a good idea. After all, Kalashnikov was a tank mechanic before he developed one of the best, if not THE best, assault rifle in the world. I'm all about finding the Kalashnikov of our time.

Once I get my designs worked out the way I want them, I plan on contracting out any amount of real production work to someone with a production sized machine and if I make any real money at it then I'll look at upgrading to do my own production.

Thank you for the input though. I need as many different perspectives as possible right now.

 

[300sniper]

Re: Opinions on buying a used Hurco KMB1 CNC?

the tormach 1100 may be worth looking at then. if you have any specific questions about the machine, feel free to ask.

 

[LRI]

Re: Opinions on buying a used Hurco KMB1 CNC?

I do quite a bit of one off prototyping, fixturing, and gauging work between rifles.

As for machines.

You need to start seriously hunting for equipment. The deals are out there.

Right now I'm working on a guy for a Kitumura Mycenter 1. A small machine but about as robust as they come. Fanuc control, rigid tapping, 4th axis, hand scraped box ways, big ol monster of a spindle drive and up to 18k on the rpm with a spindle chiller.

(Kitumuras are BAD ASS)

Did I mention Kitty's are bad ass??

I want it for one singular purpose; blueprinting Remington 700's and Model 70s by the gross.

The price on the table right now is $8,000K (it's an older machine) but I think I can get it for around $6,000.

Ebay is one place, so is used equipment dealers, auctions, etc.

devote your time to sorting out what requirements you need now, and what you think you'll need in the future.

It's a buyers market right now. Machine shops are drying up all over the place. This stuff is pretty much junk to a bank. They wholesale it and wash their hands of it.

FWIW you can LEASE a new Haas or Hurco for around $300 a month.

Can't spend it when your dead right???

Good luck

C

 

[Kelly The Lionfish Hunter]

Re: Opinions on buying a used Hurco KMB1 CNC?

Wow, that was a whole lot of useful info right there! Especially about the renting one part. That makes things a ton easier for me right now. As soon as I learn enough to actually operate one at a basic level I can rent a small one, build a bunch of prototypes, then return it while I test the prototypes. Since I'm not in a hurry to go full bore with it yet, renting one would work out better for me, I think.

Until I'm ready to buy, I'll keep learning as much as I can and keep working on designs.

What does everyone else think about the Kitimuras?

 

[LRI]

Re: Opinions on buying a used Hurco KMB1 CNC?

It doesn't exactly work that way.

"Leasing" is a colorful term for "buying under contract."

Haas doesn't want the machine back. Once it's in place, your an owner.

The only way your getting rid of it is to go tits up or sell it.

The expense of transporting one of these things is expressed in terms like; "thousands of dollars." It's not a car that can be driven back to the dealer.

Speaking of transport. DO NOT TAKE THIS LIGHTLY. Use ONLY a bonded, insured rigging company and prior to anything moving anywhere talk with your insurance company about carrying a writer on the equipment for the REPLACEMENT COST. If it were me I'd use an escrow company and hold any payment there until it sits on the floor of your shop.

My favorite saying: "experience is never cheap."

A good friend of mine just bought a high frequency drive CNC router from a guitar hippy out in SF that went tits up. This machine was bad ass. (emphasize "was") Vacuum table, tool changer, high resolution encoders, gantry style mast, etc.

Well the truck driver moving the piece wasn't exactly spooled up on running a fork. He dropped the thing and it cased out in the parking lot.

This machine was worth over 60k. He got $3500 bucks and waived freight for his trouble.

I know everyone is screaming "idiot" right now. Maybe. The point is INSURANCE exists for a reason. Be specific, get it writing, and have it reviewed if in doubt. This crap costs too much to play around.

Good luck.

C

 

[Mike308Bell]

Re: Opinions on buying a used Hurco KMB1 CNC?

Yes....what Chad said on the shippers. We require our dealer to handle all that stuff. The new machines we get are not ours untill after they are installed and set up. We when sell or trade in old ones....they are bought and paid for before we even unhook the electric and air lines! ( Really Good dealer!)

When you do get a machine...make sure the fork lift is big enough to move it.

We had one shipper show up with no fork lift because somebody (riggers) messed up the paper work and it took us about 8 hours to get one rented that was big enough. Truck with machine showed up a day before the rigging crew. That was not a good day!

next day wasnt good for the riggers when they showed up and we already had the machine inside the shop leveled out already.

 

[Kelly The Lionfish Hunter]

Re: Opinions on buying a used Hurco KMB1 CNC?

It sounds like I better fork out the cash for the customer service then and a good warranty also.

 

[Kelly The Lionfish Hunter]

Re: Opinions on buying a used Hurco KMB1 CNC?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My favorite saying: "experience is never cheap."</div></div>

This is what I keep telling myself at every turn of this process. If I don't listen to ya'll that have done this for years, I'm going to have redo all the work you all have already done. Granted, I'll have my own learning curve and forget some important lessons ya'll impart, and cost myself a bunch of money and time but I'll still save myself thousands of dollars and years of trial an error if I set my ego aside and just be a student. I don't remember my ego putting in on this anyway so he doesn't get a say, lol.