Rifle Scopes Optic help for 16" 308 AR

[Jmccracken1214]

Putting together a somewhat lightweight ar10, aero build with a rainer ultra match 16" barrel. The rifle will be used 50-600 yards max. So, Im thinking LPVO is good to go on this.
Im really wanting the gen 3 razor 1-10, but then the PA platinum 1-8 caught my eye, and even though its not a 10x like I'd want to have, it's $1000 +/- less than the razor, even with my military discount.

Anyone got hands on time with both? The only other optic in the price range of the PA ive noticed to be worth it would be the trijicon credo, but Im not crazy about the reticle in that.

You guys think the razor brings $1000 more worth of scope to the table over the PA ?

 

[JDB55]

My brother has a Vortex Razor 1-10x24. Pros is it's extremely bright, does 1x and 10x decently and has great glass in a lightweight body. He's still thinking about selling it because of the eye relief/eye box and the reticle on 1x is really hard to see without illumination(if there was ever a situation where some happened to it). Honestly if the Eotech 1-10x28 turns out to be just daylight bright(not nuclear like the Razor) he'll probably switch. The 28mm objective on the Eotech should help the Exit pupil and make it a bit easier to get behind.

On the PA 1-8 PLx I've never looked through it, but I know their giving it an overhaul currently and it will come out smaller and much lighter. So it looks interesting, looking forward to seeing the reviews.

I recently purchased an 18" barreled AR10 and went with a higher mag scope and an offset RDS, I really like that set up for that cartridge, but the LPVO can definitely work and will be cheaper most likely... unless you get the Razor 1-10. My opinion is it's not worth $1000 more. But I may be in the minority.

 

[Jmccracken1214]

My brother has a Vortex Razor 1-10x24. Pros is it's extremely bright, does 1x and 10x decently and has great glass in a lightweight body. He's still thinking about selling it because of the eye relief/eye box and the reticle on 1x is really hard to see without illumination(if there was ever a situation where some happened to it). Honestly if the Eotech 1-10x28 turns out to be just daylight bright(not nuclear like the Razor) he'll probably switch. The 28mm objective on the Eotech should help the Exit pupil and make it a bit easier to get behind.

On the PA 1-8 PLx I've never looked through it, but I know their giving it an overhaul currently and it will come out smaller and much lighter. So it looks interesting, looking forward to seeing the reviews.

I recently purchased an 18" barreled AR10 and went with a higher mag scope and an offset RDS, I really like that set up for that cartridge, but the LPVO can definitely work and will be cheaper most likely... unless you get the Razor 1-10. My opinion is it's not worth $1000 more. But I may be in the minority.

Do you have a link to any info on the new PA? I haven’t heard anything about the overhaul.

 

[FuhQ]

Of those 2 options... The Razor Gen3.

 

[JDB55]

Do you have a link to any info on the new PA? I haven’t heard anything about the overhaul.

https://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-new-products#plx1to8
Here is the official release

Rifle Scopes - New Primary Arms PLXC 1-8 FFP

Announced yesterday and I didn't see a thread in the first few pages. https://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-new-products#plx1to8 This is their Japan made line. Looks like they dropped down to a 30mm tube and were able to shed some weight. Will be interested to see what price these come in...

www.snipershide.com

And here is the link to the discussion about it on this website. There is a rep from primary arms in there who talks about it more and their are some reticle pictures.


Let me clarify something I said, I think you would enjoy the 10x over the 8x at your longest distance of shooting (600 yards) so in that regards the 10x would be nice. But overall, if it was me and my experience with the Razor, I couldn't justify it with some of the quirks. Having said that my financial situation may be different and it's still a fantastic scope, you just don't hear a lot of people talk about the tighter eyebox and some diminished eye relief, that's just the nature of what they had to do with the dimensions of the scope and physics.

 

[r.tenorio671]

.... in a FFP scope, the reticle at both the lowest and highest settings most likely will the deciding factor for you as price sounds like it's not a factor for you. IMHO, if the dot/circle/chevron of the scope at 1x is too small to be be picked up quickly as a RDS would be, then it defeats the purpose of being an alternative for a RDS. Conversely, if at the maximum X power the reticle design covers up the intended target that could be problematic. As you stated "lightweight" for your build, then weight of a scope will be your 2nd desired criteria. Good luck!

 

[TacticalPlinker]

Vortex G3 1-10 . I even run this on my 6.5 Creedmoor hog bolt gun. This combo ain't cheap , but it does almost everything I ask of it from 25 out to 600y (steel)

 

[JDB55]

Vortex G3 1-10 . I even run this on my 6.5 Creedmoor hog bolt gun. This combo ain't cheap , but it does almost everything I ask of it from 25 out to 600y (steel)

I like that RDS on top, seems like a good solution.

 

[TacticalPlinker]

I like that RDS on top, seems like a good solution.

Thanks. In my opinion no scope can do everything well. Always tradeoffs. Adding the RMR solves getting caught at high magnification when the moment suddenly demands a 1X solution.

I was stalking a piggy at 6x with my SR25, and his 160 lb uncle charged me from a blind spot. I almost shit myself. At the time I had a DeltaPoint / Razor combo. I've run a magnified/RDS combo ever since.
Happy ending. Local soup kitchen served lots of pork that week .

 

[dogman]

I ran a Leupold Mk 6 1-6x on my lightweight(ish) AR10 and easily shot it out to 800 yds.

 

[JDB55]

Thanks. In my opinion no scope can do everything well. Always tradeoffs. Adding the RMR solves getting caught at high magnification when the moment suddenly demands a 1X solution.

I was stalking a piggy at 6x with my SR25, and his 160 lb uncle charged me from a blind spot. I almost shit myself. At the time I had a DeltaPoint / Razor combo. I've run a magnified/RDS combo ever since.
Happy ending. Local soup kitchen served lots of pork that week .

That's a really good point. I run a set of 45 degree offset irons on my 1-6x24 Delta stryker 16" AR15...I need to practice more with that transition as it'll be less natural than your solution.

 

[JDB55]

Wanted to leave this for your viewing original poster. His experience jives with what I've seen. Seems if you can live with the eyebox then it's your huckleberry. I think C_does is a very fair and accurate scope reviewer, he's pretty meticulous. I do know that Ilya or koshkin really loves the 1-10 razor and his opinion is highly revered as he knows his stuff. Maybe you could get your hands on one before you buy. Good luck buddy.

 

[TacticalPlinker]

Regarding the eyebox - the video mentioned the Unity mount. If its higher than 1.50" then you're definitely going to have issues. Small objective @ 10x requires a consistent cheek weld. 1.50 " or absolute co-witness height (Bobro) makes for a rock solid cheek weld. The higher Unity mounts create a chin weld. Great for most - not for this scope IMO.

As for 1x - I run this pretty fast and his description in my opinion is over the top on how bad it is . Dialing in the optic sometimes takes longer. A 1-10 pushes LPVO limits . This scope requires more attention to setup , but once you're there, its a beast.

 

[TacticalPlinker]

Training means everything

 

[rlsmith1]

If you’re not set on an LPVO I love my MK5 3.6-18 and think it’s fantastic for a gas gun, especially a large frame

 

[Jmccracken1214]

If you’re not set on an LPVO I love my MK5 3.6-18 and think it’s fantastic for a gas gun, especially a large frame

I’ve got the same Mk5 on a 308 bolt gun, I may try it on the ar10.
I just applied for eotechs pro account, if that gets approved then their 1-10 will be a likely choice

 

[JDB55]

Regarding the eyebox - the video mentioned the Unity mount. If its higher than 1.50" then you're definitely going to have issues. Small objective @ 10x requires a consistent cheek weld. 1.50 " or absolute co-witness height (Bobro) makes for a rock solid cheek weld. The higher Unity mounts create a chin weld. Great for most - not for this scope IMO.

As for 1x - I run this pretty fast and his description in my opinion is over the top on how bad it is . Dialing in the optic sometimes takes longer. A 1-10 pushes LPVO limits . This scope requires more attention to setup , but once you're there, its a beast.

That's a fair point, and where some of my brothers frustration has come from. He's running an America defense standard mount and he keeps having to move it because he just keeps getting scope shadow. However, to be completely open he's a big guy which means a bigger head. Some of it may stem from his cheeks being bigger thus not able to get the proper cheek weld consistently. Also, with the diffractive* illumination they use, like in the video, the illumination completely disappears with to much scope shadow, from what I've heard thats just the nature of that illumination style. So for my brother whose used to the Razor 1-6, I think the combination of the tighter eye box and then losing the illumination and having no aiming reference has thrown him off. But he's not running another 1x solution like you, it's really smart and I'm going to mention it to him. Overall I really think it is fantastic and the reality is that physics limits all of this, so their has to be little compomises. I am interested to see if eotech making theirs a 28mm vs a 24 helps a bit on the eyebox.

 

[TacticalPlinker]

@JDB55

So I thought about this scope more. I don't want someone to pay for something that may not provide what they're looking for.

That being said this is my opinion after further review...

GEN3 1-10 is definitely better used as a DMR optic thats capable of being pressed into close range duty.

Its strengths for going long slows it down a bit at 1x. Eyebox sensitivity is more extreme than other optics in the 1-6/8x category. I've trained the eyebox issue to become a minor factor when using it up close. In retrospect I do remember accepting its limitations of speed in trade for its ability to quickly range targets and hold at distance.

If used along these lines its a good optic. But there are better fighting setups out there that are clearly faster. The tradeoffs would then be reduced long range capability.

Everything is a compromise.

 

[JDB55]

@JDB55

So I thought about this scope more. I don't want someone to pay for something that may not provide what they're looking for.

That being said this is my opinion after further review...

GEN3 1-10 is definitely better used as a DMR optic thats capable of being pressed into close range duty.

Its strengths for going long slows it down a bit at 1x. Eyebox sensitivity is more extreme than other optics in the 1-6/8x category. I've trained the eyebox issue to become a minor factor when using it up close. In retrospect I do remember accepting its limitations of speed in trade for its ability to quickly range targets and hold at distance.

If used along these lines its a good optic. But there are better fighting setups out there that are clearly faster. The tradeoffs would then be reduced long range capability.

Everything is a compromise.

Thanks for following up, your post I think sets this optic in the right paradigm, I didn't state it nearly as succinctly as you just did but that's what I was originally trying to say. I completely agree. I really think vortex did as good as they could with the 1-10x24 and it is what is with some of the minor drawbacks, these are limitations that anyone and everyone are going to run into. The 1-10x with an offset rds like you have might be the best set up you could ask for, for a gun that's going out to 600-800 yards but still want it to be lightweight. Granted, that's me saying this if money is no factor at all.

 

[Jmccracken1214]

With eotechs military discount, they are who I’ll go with.
The 1-10 vudu is so close to the new PA 1-8, that it’s not worth it to go that route. I really like the way the vudu’s reticle is also. Now I just have to wait until March and hope to get one

 

[JDB55]

With eotechs military discount, they are who I’ll go with.
The 1-10 vudu is so close to the new PA 1-8, that it’s not worth it to go that route. I really like the way the vudu’s reticle is also. Now I just have to wait until March and hope to get one

Sounds like your getting an in between and something you want. Good for you bud. Would love to see a follow up on your impressions, I'm interested in that optic big time.

 

[Jmccracken1214]

Sounds like your getting an in between and something you want. Good for you bud. Would love to see a follow up on your impressions, I'm interested in that optic big time.

I wanted a 1-10 mainly, which is what lead me to the razor, but I don’t really like the reticle, the Vudu is much nicer for trying to shoot more precisely at distance.
I know it’s cheaper than the vortex, but I’d imagine the quality is close to the same wjth the 2 companies.
I’ll def post a thread once I get one

 

[JDB55]

I wanted a 1-10 mainly, which is what lead me to the razor, but I don’t really like the reticle, the Vudu is much nicer for trying to shoot more precisely at distance.
I know it’s cheaper than the vortex, but I’d imagine the quality is close to the same wjth the 2 companies.
I’ll def post a thread once I get one

Looking forward to it!

 

[troupe]

It has not been mentioned, but Tract has their new 1x8 out and in stock. It is well worth the look with the Schott glass and no middleman to get into the cost. Tract has some of the finest glass for the price range. The glass compares to scopes costing double the price.

 

[FN15]

A LPVO or red dot + mag combo.

Trust me, adding a full scope really weighs that beast down!

 

[Jmccracken1214]

It has not been mentioned, but Tract has their new 1x8 out and in stock. It is well worth the look with the Schott glass and no middleman to get into the cost. Tract has some of the finest glass for the price range. The glass compares to scopes costing double the price.

I love tract, I’ve had a few of their top end glass. My ONLY issue with them, was the eye box was a bit tight. Wonder if the 1-8 is like that too.

 

[JDB55]

I love tract, I’ve had a few of their top end glass. My ONLY issue with them, was the eye box was a bit tight. Wonder if the 1-8 is like that too.

My brother in law just bought the tract 1-8 and though I haven't had eyes on yet, we've conversed alot about it and he's sent me pictures. I posted a thread about it in this forum with some basic pictures through the scope. Two things that might be a negative for you(maybe not), #1- it's a sfp 8x, so for shooting out to distance imo after 6x your gonna want FFP so you can use more of that mag range #2- The illuminated dot though bright for an LED is not as bright as some other options in or around that price range using either Fiber optic illumination or diffractive illumination (more expensive price range). However, I haven't had eyes on yet due to sickness. When I'm able I'm gonna get behind it and compare it to some of my lpvos/friends LPVOs:Razor Gen III 1-10, Razor gen 2E 1-6, Burris XTR II 1-8 SFP, Delta Stryker 1-6x24, PST Gen 2 1-6x24. I'll post over there my general thoughts to hopefully be a help.

New Tract Toric UHD 1-8x24 LPVO

I had heard this was coming, it just dropped today. It looks decent for a SFP 1-8, assuming L.O.W Japan made as the other torics I believe are manufactured there. Has anyone gotten to see these early? Any thoughts? Discuss :) Reminds me of the eotech 1-8x24 sfp just looking at specs. Moa and...

www.snipershide.com

 

[Jmccracken1214]

While I wait for the Vudu 1-10, the idea of maybe running higher mag on this rifle is popping into my head.
I’d love the keep the weight down but I think it’ll be heavy ish either way.
Toying with the idea of taking the Mk5 3.6-18 off my 308 bolt gun and putting on the AR and buying the Vudu 5-25 for my bolt gun.

 

[JDB55]

While I wait for the Vudu 1-10, the idea of maybe running higher mag on this rifle is popping into my head.
I’d love the keep the weight down but I think it’ll be heavy ish either way.
Toying with the idea of taking the Mk5 3.6-18 off my 308 bolt gun and putting on the AR and buying the Vudu 5-25 for my bolt gun.

Definitely a viable option, it'll get down to your personal requirements of what your wanting to do with it and the pros/cons of the weight increase vs. the benefits of having higher mag. I'm running a Vortex Razor LHT 4.522x50 with an offs RDS on my 18" .308 gas gun. I like it for it's purpose, but even though the LHT is extremely light, it's just a heavy rifle being a large frame AR with all the accessories. Weight starts adding up quickly, if your not planning on toting it around that's one thing, but if you are, skimping on ounces when you can will absolutely have an effect on you when carrying it. You'll feel it.

 

[Jmccracken1214]

The rifle is together. Not super light but not as heavy as I thought.
Aero build with a Rainer ultra match 308 fluted 16” barrel.
G2s trigger, dead air brake and KAC mags.

The weight makes me want to throw a lpvo on it to keep the weight down… but I do have a spare bipod and a 3-18 ish would be nice too.

First world problems

 

[JDB55]

The rifle is together. Not super light but not as heavy as I thought.
Aero build with a Rainer ultra match 308 fluted 16” barrel.
G2s trigger, dead air brake and KAC mags.

The weight makes me want to throw a lpvo on it to keep the weight down… but I do have a spare bipod and a 3-18 ish would be nice too.

First world problems View attachment 7798437

Sweet! Good call on the G2s trigger, running one on my ar10 and love it. What's the weight at currently out of curiosity?

 

[Jmccracken1214]

Sweet! What's the weight at currently out of curiosity?

I’ll check it tomorrow. I’m guessing around the 10# mark give or take.
Much lighter than the last one I had with a bull barrel 22” 6.5 and a magpul prs stock

 

[JDB55]

I’ll check it tomorrow. I’m guessing around the 10# mark give or take.
Much lighter than the last one I had with a bull barrel 22” 6.5 and a magpul prs stock

It seems once you go to a higher mag range, it just makes sense to get a PRS type stock with a comb then weight increases and before you know it it's more precision ar10 then battle rifle ar10. Just kind of the nature of it. Which maybe that's what you want. If you define what roll you want this rifle to fill it will greatly help you in deciding on your optic. Just my thoughts love the look so far.

 

[Jmccracken1214]

It seems once you go to a higher mag range, it just makes sense to get a PRS type stock with a comb then weight increases and before you know it it's more precision ar10 then battle rifle ar10. Just kind of the nature of it. Which maybe that's what you want. If you define what roll you want this rifle to fill it will greatly help you in deciding on your optic. Just my thoughts love the look so far.

I was wanting a dmr type rifle. Just to use for 100-600 yard shots, may get back into competitions again this year. So carrying the rifle around might be a possibility. Possibly hunting rig for 100-300 yards.
I love the precision style ar10’s but hate the wait.
My original thoughts were 1-8 or 1-10 and thinking that would be plenty for a 600 yard shot.
Just need to find something with the smallest center dot possible

 

[JDB55]

I was wanting a dmr type rifle. Just to use for 100-600 yard shots, may get back into competitions again this year. So carrying the rifle around might be a possibility. Possibly hunting rig for 100-300 yards.
I love the precision style ar10’s but hate the wait.
My original thoughts were 1-8 or 1-10 and thinking that would be plenty for a 600 yard shot.
Just need to find something with the smallest center dot possible

I hear you. Keep everything as is and put a Leupold mark 5 3.6-18x44 with an offset RDS(if you really want a 1x); that would be sweet, but $$$. A 1-10 will definitely get you out to 600 yards, just may not see as much of the target as you want.

 

[Jmccracken1214]

I hear you. Keep everything as is and put a Leupold mark 5 3.6-18x44 with an offset RDS(if you really want a 1x); that would be sweet, but $$$. A 1-10 will definitely get you out to 600 yards, just may not see as much of the target as you want.

I called leupold today about a 2nd 3.6-18, but they’re not sure when they’ll have them back in stock. I hate the that illuminated ones are $500 more but still cheaper than nightforce or razor.

 

[Makinchips208]

I was wanting a dmr type rifle. Just to use for 100-600 yard shots, may get back into competitions again this year. So carrying the rifle around might be a possibility. Possibly hunting rig for 100-300 yards.
I love the precision style ar10’s but hate the wait.
My original thoughts were 1-8 or 1-10 and thinking that would be plenty for a 600 yard shot.
Just need to find something with the smallest center dot possible

Do you dial for further shots? Or hold over?
The center dot on my 1-8 is .2 mil but if I’m holding over the subtensions are .06 mil, so very fine. I don’t know if other LPVO are similar, but I assume so.

 

[JDB55]

I called leupold today about a 2nd 3.6-18, but they’re not sure when they’ll have them back in stock. I hate the that illuminated ones are $500 more but still cheaper than nightforce or razor.

Have you contacted Scott from liberty optics @LibertyOptics ? He's a dealer on here and usually has some of the best prices on optics. Not sure if in stock but worth a shot. Highly recommend.

NEW! Mark 5 HD scopes!! ALL GONE! SO LONG LEUPOLD!!

Pick up a Mark 5HD™ and you’ll feel the difference: it’s up to 20 ounces lighter than other scopes in its class. Get behind one and you’ll see the difference, from the superior edge-to-edge clarity and extreme low-light performance, to the versatility of the Combat Competition Hunter reticle...

www.libertyoptics.com

Edit: Looks like a 2-8 week ship time

 

[Jmccracken1214]

Have you contacted Scott from liberty optics @LibertyOptics ? He's a dealer on here and usually has some of the best prices on optics. Not sure if in stock but worth a shot. Highly recommend.

NEW! Mark 5 HD scopes!! ALL GONE! SO LONG LEUPOLD!!

Pick up a Mark 5HD™ and you’ll feel the difference: it’s up to 20 ounces lighter than other scopes in its class. Get behind one and you’ll see the difference, from the superior edge-to-edge clarity and extreme low-light performance, to the versatility of the Combat Competition Hunter reticle...

www.libertyoptics.com

Edit: Looks like a 2-8 week ship time

I’ll check, not sure if he can get to the same as their military discount.
May look into the nx8 2.5-20 as well. Seems like a good choice

 

[JDB55]

I’ll check, not sure if he can get to the same as their military discount.
May look into the nx8 2.5-20 as well. Seems like a good choice

I know he does give Leo/mil discounts because my cousin bought an optic from him at a good price. But not sure how it compares.

Maybe more people can speak to the nx8 but I have heard their are some depth of field issues because of the compactness of the scope and the erector ratio range. But I have never looked through one personally.

 

[Jmccracken1214]

I know he does give Leo/mil discounts because my cousin bought an optic from him at a good price. But not sure how it compares.

Maybe more people can speak to the nx8 but I have heard their are some depth of field issues because of the compactness of the scope and the erector ratio range. But I have never looked through one personally.

I’m reading that too, looks like that is a no go.
May just get another 34mm tract for my bolt gun and take the Mk5 off it for the ar10, I’ll keep you guys posted

 

[Jmccracken1214]

Just went ahead and got another Mk5 3.6-18 off a member here today.
I love it the scope on my bolt gun, so why not have 2.

 

[JDB55]

Good call, that's gonna be a slick set up. Are you gonna do an offset RDS? Just curious

 

[Jmccracken1214]

Good call, that's gonna be a slick set up. Are you gonna do an offset RDS? Just curious

Probably not right now, maybe down the road if the need for it comes up. I’ll probably throw a set of offset flip ups on it

 

[91Eunozs]

Ran a S&B 1-8 short dot on my AR10 for a couple years:

…but just swapped it to a Nightforce last weekend, also 1-8. I think it hits the sweet spot for a .308 with a 16” barrel.

Sorry, no good pic of it in this configuration yet, just walked it to a rough zero on paper before getting a real 100-yd zero; hopefully this weekend. After I got it close, I screwed on the can I normally use for this rifle to see the POI shift, but it was basically nil.

POA was the ‘8’ above the X ring:

 

[Makinchips208]

Ran a S&B 1-8 short dot on my AR10 for a couple years:

…but just swapped it to a Nightforce last weekend, also 1-8. I think it hits the sweet spot for a .308 with a 16” barrel.

Sorry, no good pic of it in this configuration yet, just walked it to a rough zero on paper before getting a real 100-yd zero; hopefully this weekend. After I got it close, I screwed on the can I normally use for this rifle to see the POI shift, but it was basically nil.

POA was the ‘8’ above the X ring:

Sweet! Is that nx8?

 

[91Eunozs]

Sweet! Is that nx8?

Yes…. Nice scope for the money.

Edit: Just read the comments above re: the NX8; not a lot of time on this scope (a few dozen rounds on a 5.56 upper, and now the .308), but zero issues so far on my end. Glass is awesome and zoom is smooth and flawless.

 

[RUTGERS95]

my choice, fantastic glass, eyebox, easy reticle. If you can find one

Legacy Products | Burris Optics

www.burrisoptics.com

 

[JDB55]

my choice, fantastic glass, eyebox, easy reticle. If you can find one

Legacy Products | Burris Optics

www.burrisoptics.com

The second focal plane (the only one I've looked through) one of that is absolutely fantastic and a steal if you can find it used. Great glass, nuclear illumination, good eyebox/relief. I hope Burris comes out with an XTRIII LPVO someday.

 

[Jmccracken1214]

Mk5 came in this morning. It’s nice that I have the same one on my tikka ctr. And my nomad L got out of jail yesterday!!! It’s like Christmas.
Only took 12 damn months for the can