F T/R Competition Optics Help

[CharlieNC]

In a few weeks I will participate in my second match, which is 300 yds again. Did ok the first time (581) using my Weaver 4-20 x 50 on the Savage 223; assessing areas for improvement I had issues resolving the x ring as the day progressed. Had a booster lens attached to get around 25X, and I think this also helps quite a bit to reduce parallax. So for a couple of days I have tried my Weaver T36, and today even at 75 degrees the mirage was terrible and I was unable to achieve a steady image of the bulls-eye. Parallax seems worse with this scope too, even dialing various settings. So it looks like I will go back to the 4-20 to combat mirage, and investigate a new scope for the future. Right now I'm considering a Sightron 10-50 1/8MOA, and will research this a bit more. Besides a new scope, any other tricks to consider?

 

[jim_k]

That's just about Master classification shooting. Just shoot more. Master level (194/200) shooting at 300 yds. with a .223 is pretty dang good. Even with .308, there are only a few High Masters at 600 yards. I don't think anybody shoots High Master (197/200) scores in F-class with a .223 at 600 yards. However, you can shoot the Savage F/TR in .223 at 600 yards, and do quite well, with practice. I'm not speaking from my own experience, but I have a friend who has done well at 600 yards with .223. At 600 and beyond, expect only the .308 shooters with 29-32" barrels to win. If you're not wound around the axle about winning, shoot the .223, and have a great time with less recoil and less expense. I have another friend, a doctor from San Antonio, who has been in the habit of winning any prone match he shoots, since his very first one at Waco about 8-9 years ago. I can only be jealous; the guy is just gifted. You might be surprised at your rate of improvement. Another guy I know from San Marcos shot F/TR there, then won the Texas F/O championship last year with a borrowed rifle, IIRC. The Texas Mid-Range (600 yard) championship is next week, and I'll let you know if I win F/TR with my 26" barrelled Savage. Hey, don't laugh; lightning only has to strike once to make me happy. Bushnell and Vortex make good scopes. Anything with side parallax and 25-30 power should work. I have not tried Sightron, but there are a lot of good options.
Jim

 

[Tristian19]

Do not have any long real experience with either scope manufacturers you mentioned but have been hearing nothing but good things about Vortex's HD Gen II 4.5-27. Take a look at this thread: http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...x-razor-ii-4-5-27x56-range-5.html#post3185969 You should find a lot of good information on this scope. This scope will most likely be my next purchase to replace my current scope on my CZ 750 Sniper .308.

I ran my first F Class 500 Yard match a few weeks ago. Scored 558-10 (183-3, 191-5 & 184-2). I did a poor job at reading wind but at least I have a starting point from here on to beat. Had NO issues with my SB PMII. Saw wind mirage but just did not do a good job at reading it through scope either.

Just my two cents to share. Hope is was worth something.

 

[gstaylorg]

Here is a scope I would buy in a heartbeat for F-Class:

Nightforce NXS 8-32x56 .125 MOA NP-R1 C317 On Sale

FWIW - I have two of these exact scopes on rifles I shoot in F-TR from 300 to 1000 yd and I can assure you I paid a lot more than that for them new. I also have several of the 12-42x56 NP-2DD scopes. Some prefer the extra mag of the 12-42 or the newer Competition models (50X or greater), particularly at 1000 yd. However, I often find myself turning the 12-42s down to somewhere very close to 32X when the mirage is high. I personally would never use 50X or higher, but to each their own. For a couple hundred or so more, EuroOptic has some Competition models that might work for you:

Nightforce Competition 15-55x52mm DDR Riflescope C492 for sale!

You can certainly get away with something in the 20-25X range at 300 yd, but it won't be optimal and you'll really notice the lack of mag if you start competing at 600 yd or farther. The Sightrons are very good scopes as well, and reasonably priced for the features. The things you probably want to avoid for F-Class shooting are scopes with 0.1 mil turrets, which is a fairly coarse adjustment (unless you can find something with .05 mil turrets), and first focal plane scopes. There is really no need for FFP in F-Class, and it can actually hamper you because the reticle stadia are often much thicker than is preferable and may obscure the target center somewhat when dialed up to the highest mag setting. As I mentioned, I have several NF scopes with the NP-2DD (dot-type) reticle, and the NP-R1 reticles on the others. Both types work well for F-TR, and reticle choice often comes down to personal choice.

In any event, it sounds like you're doing very well so far, especially with a .223. If you decide to buy a new scope more suited to F-TR, just do your homework carefully and try to find one that you can look through before buying, if it's at all possible. Good luck!

 

[RStewart]

Even with .308, there are only a few High Masters at 600 yards. I don't think anybody shoots High Master (197/200) scores in F-class with a .223 at 600 yards.

We have at least 9 FTR High Masters at Palo Alto and one shoots a .223.

Here's a fun little video one of our guys put together. We have our Louisiana Championship this weekend. Four .223's on the line for it. 600 yards.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrxR5eDuA54

 

[CharlieNC]

Now that's a creative video! The severity of the mirage using 36x st 300 yd surprised me, and it is often bad at our range. So a variable power is certainly in my future. Now to decide whether to stick with the 223 or maybe switch to my 6BR.

 

[jim_k]

Love the video! I still say that CharlieNC shouldn't be ashamed of his score - that's my point. You guys at Palo Alto are an awesome group of shooters! I'll try to get there when I move closer, which will be soon. One question: did the High Master who shoots .223 get his High Master F/TR card shooting .223 at 600 yards, or did he get it with a .308, then switch over? I'm not saying it can't be done. Like I said, I've heard of .223 winning at 600 yards, but anybody who can do that should be attentively listened to by the rest of us.
Jim

 

[RStewart]

I believe he did it with his .308 but has recently won a couple of different matches shooting the .223.
I have only shot .223 and should be going HM in the next couple of months. I have also won with it.
At 600 yards the .223 will hold its own. When you get out beyond that it gets tougher but still doable.
Rick

 

[Down South]

I believe he did it with his .308 but has recently won a couple of different matches shooting the .223.
I have only shot .223 and should be going HM in the next couple of months. I have also won with it.
At 600 yards the .223 will hold its own. When you get out beyond that it gets tougher but still doable.
Rick

Rick, i think Tony made HM with his .223......I'll ask him to be sure, either way it doesn't matter.......His last couple matches he shot 590s with the .223 for sure, its a hammer at 600 yards with the 90s.

I've heard guys say on forums how easy it is to make HM at midrange in FTR but most guys that make it shoot 300, 500, 600.......Its a little tougher to make it when all you shoot is 600 yard matches.

 

[gstaylorg]

A lot depends on the predominant wind conditions where the shooter competes regularly. If the wind conditions are generally mild, it will be far less difficult to shoot HM scores at 600 yd in F-TR, regardless of whether the shooter is using a .223 or .308. If the typical wind conditions are pretty challenging, it's going to be a lot tougher, and someone shooting a .308 load with a heavy high BC bullet will have a definite advantage.

As far as shooting the .223, if you can get the 90s to work, it's pretty much a game-changer as far as previous thinking about using a .223 for F-TR goes. So far, I have been extremely pleased with the results I have gotten at 300 and 600 yd. Of course, that may change after using them for the first time in a 1000 yd match next weekend (LOL). Regardless of how they perform at 1000 yd, I will still have an awesome 600 yd setup, so it hasn't been a waste of time or effort IMO. I can state with some confidence that they seem every bit as good as my 185 Juggernaut load out to 600...with essentially no recoil. Gotta love that.

 

[RStewart]

A lot depends on the predominant wind conditions where the shooter competes regularly. If the wind conditions are generally mild, it will be far less difficult to shoot HM scores at 600 yd in F-TR, regardless of whether the shooter is using a .223 or .308.

Agreed, but Palo Alto winds have never been what you would call "generally mild." Anyone shooting High Master here has earned it.
Being surrounded by sugar cane fields, winds can change greatly depending on whether it's growing or whether it has been cut. Put a berm 100 yards long down the left side and it can make for fun times. lol

10-15 mph and variable this weekend.

 

[steve123]

In a few weeks I will participate in my second match, which is 300 yds again. Did ok the first time (581) using my Weaver 4-20 x 50 on the Savage 223; assessing areas for improvement I had issues resolving the x ring as the day progressed. Had a booster lens attached to get around 25X, and I think this also helps quite a bit to reduce parallax. So for a couple of days I have tried my Weaver T36, and today even at 75 degrees the mirage was terrible and I was unable to achieve a steady image of the bulls-eye. Parallax seems worse with this scope too, even dialing various settings. So it looks like I will go back to the 4-20 to combat mirage, and investigate a new scope for the future. Right now I'm considering a Sightron 10-50 1/8MOA, and will research this a bit more. Besides a new scope, any other tricks to consider?

I just sent back a Sightron 10-50 mil/mil - .05mil/ 1/8th" at 100Y. I didn't like the fact that there was only 2.5 mils per revolution of the turret. Scope was pretty dark at 50x.

 

[RStewart]

In a few weeks I will participate in my second match, which is 300 yds again. Did ok the first time (581) using my Weaver 4-20 x 50 on the Savage 223; assessing areas for improvement I had issues resolving the x ring as the day progressed. Had a booster lens attached to get around 25X, and I think this also helps quite a bit to reduce parallax. So for a couple of days I have tried my Weaver T36, and today even at 75 degrees the mirage was terrible and I was unable to achieve a steady image of the bulls-eye. Parallax seems worse with this scope too, even dialing various settings. So it looks like I will go back to the 4-20 to combat mirage, and investigate a new scope for the future. Right now I'm considering a Sightron 10-50 1/8MOA, and will research this a bit more. Besides a new scope, any other tricks to consider?

The clearer the glass the longer you have before mirage begins to be an issue. The booster lens, while adding magnification adds more pieces of glass to create distortion.
I shoot Schmidt Bender PMII 12-50 scopes. They do a good job of seeing through the mirage, but come with a price. And I usually stay around 50X.
The NF 12-42 BR is an excellent scope. I had the CH3 reticle on the one I had. I also had the NF 8-32 and it also was very good. I just decided to upgrade another step. If you watch you can probably find one of the 12-42's on here or Accurate Shooter selling for around $1000. An 8-32 may run a little less. I recommend going with MOA also, as was stated earlier you can fine tune it better.

A good, solid bipod is a must. I don't know what you are currently using, but a Sinclair Gen III, Sinclair Tactical, Atlas along with some others are very good. But they will set you back around $250 or more.

A good back bag is also essential. Again, don't know what you have, but Protektor, for one has a variety of back bags. Some with high ears, some with low.

A good shooting mat will help make it more comfortable in the prone position. There's nothing worse than being in position with that rock under your thin mat grinding into your leg.

A spotting scope is useful, but not really needed at 300. At 600 it can be quite handy, I use mine to watch mirage between shots. I then use it when scoring.

Position behind the rifle is also a factor. Some folks like to have the rifle at an angle to the shoulder and some like to be straight behind the rifle. You'll have to decide what position works best for you.

You shot a 581, which is quite good.
Was that factory ammo or reloads?

Do you plan to shoot at longer ranges?

All of these play into your "Big Picture" plan for shooting.

These are all suggestions.

My advice is next match look around at what everyone is using and ask questions- why did you pick that one, etc. Most shooters are more than happy to help new shooters out by answering questions.

And I have exclusively shot .223 since I started, so I am well familiar with it. But being a Match Director has hampered me shooting the last 3 years, so I have not achieved High Master yet. I am a Master though.

A .223 is a lot of fun to shoot and when you beat the .308's it's a bigger smile.

Best of luck!
Rick

 

[gstaylorg]

Agreed, but Palo Alto winds have never been what you would call "generally mild." Anyone shooting High Master here has earned it.
Being surrounded by sugar cane fields, winds can change greatly depending on whether it's growing or whether it has been cut. Put a berm 100 yards long down the left side and it can make for fun times. lol

10-15 mph and variable this weekend.

I wasn't implying anything about the wind conditions at Palo Alto, just making a general statement about wind conditions and making HM in midrange. I occasionally follow the F-TR scores posted at Palo Alto matches and they are always VERY good. Many of us would be hard pressed to shoot that well in absolute calm conditions, let alone with any wind at all. As stated, you have many fine shooters there and whoever wins this weekend will have earned it. I'm sure it will be a great match.

Go get 'em, Jade!

 

[RStewart]

I wasn't implying anything about the wind conditions at Palo Alto, just making a general statement about wind conditions and making HM in midrange. I occasionally follow the F-TR scores posted at Palo Alto matches and they are always VERY good. Many of us would be hard pressed to shoot that well in absolute calm conditions, let alone with any wind at all. As stated, you have many fine shooters there and whoever wins this weekend will have earned it. I'm sure it will be a great match.

Go get 'em, Jade!

I know you weren't. I've read too many of your posts over the last couple of years to know you weren't disparaging us.
I was just pointing out that even those of us that shoot here regularly never know what to expect.
Last year for the State match we had a hurricane which dropped to a Tropical Storm just off the coast. Now those were some interesting winds on Saturday. LOL

Jade will have his work cut out, but I don't think he would want it any other way!

 

[CharlieNC]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I'm pretty well set on everything now thanks to this forum except the scope upgrade. My 4-20 actually served OK at 300 until the final relay when fatigue began to set in; at 65 the eyes and energy aren't up to par like when I was a young 55! Yes these are handloads and I use a nice adjustable homemade bipod that a buddy and I plan to sell soon. Long term I'm thinking of switching to my 6BR to better handle the longer ranges.

 

[suberjc]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I'm pretty well set on everything now thanks to this forum except the scope upgrade. My 4-20 actually served OK at 300 until the final relay when fatigue began to set in; at 65 the eyes and energy aren't up to par like when I was a young 55! Yes these are handloads and I use a nice adjustable homemade bipod that a buddy and I plan to sell soon. Long term I'm thinking of switching to my 6BR to better handle the longer ranges.

Welcome to FClass sir. I am notnew to FClass but I am new to FTR. I have a couple of matches under my belt and I am currently using a high magnification fixed power Leupold cause its all I got for the moment. One thing I have learned a bit about is timing.
If you can make yourself wait on conditions you may be better served by the Weaver. Mirage usually doesnt last an entire string an unless you get a boil mirage isnt too big a problem anyway.
I'm glad to learn of yet another new shooter.
BTW Jade, Rick and apparently the other gentleman are truly good sources of FTR info.
Once again, welcome

 

[BC 6.8]

Charlie - You'll do fine with the 4-20x scope. Part of the reason you couldn't resolve the X ring after a few shots at Catawba is because they use Scotch tape as pasters that is hazy as all get out. They used to use a very clear Scotch tape, but I guess they ran out. I wouldn't be afraid to run either of the scopes you have. This time of year, you will probably have overcast conditions in the morning, so you won't be able to see the mirage anyway. I wish I would be there in a few weeks. I would let you get behind my Sightron 8-32x and try it out. I know Casey shoots the same scope and should be there at the match.

 

[CharlieNC]

BC you are right about the tape; and the sun angle during the third relay made that especially worse. Funny how such factors that you would not ordinarily think of can have such an impact; that's what experience is all about. One thing I learned last time is take the time to checkout gear and ask questions pre-match, because you will not have time during the comp. While my T36 might be okay for mirage at this match, it won't serve well at my home range for practice because the mirage is often terrible there, esp when it's cooler and the ground heats up. The 4-20 is back on the 223 and I will head to the range Sunday pm to fine-tune zero and get in some trigger time, and probably go back a couple of times next week before the match. Will spend one day with by hunting buddy to get our gear fine-tuned for an upcoming antelope hunt in a couple of weeks; we are retired, slow, but plod along to get it done! The prone F class shooting is great practice for this type of hunt, and gives a lot of confidence for taking longer shots on the plains.

 

[BC 6.8]

Charlie - I will actually be at the match this weekend. For some reason I thought it was on the 18th, but it is on the 11th. You can look through my scope before or after the match.

 

[CharlieNC]

BC I talked to Norm this week for clarification and the told me they stayed with 18th after-all since there was not a conflict with Butner. Leaving for a hunt on 18th so I will miss the match. Thanks for the offer.

 

[BC 6.8]

BC I talked to Norm this week for clarification and the told me they stayed with 18th after-all since there was not a conflict with Butner. Leaving for a hunt on 18th so I will miss the match. Thanks for the offer.

That's interesting because the NSSC website shows a 600 yd match at Butner on the 18th.

 

[CharlieNC]

That's interesting because the NSSC website shows a 600 yd match at Butner on the 18th.

That's why I called Norm to clear up my confusion because I had been told it was moving from Oct 18 to 11th. The state championship match was last weekend at Butner; I guess that was the conflict they wanted to avoid. Catawba website still shows 18th as well.