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Optimal Barrel Time and Quickload

ShtrRdy

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
  • Sep 17, 2011
    2,943
    803
    High Plains
    I'm trying to see if I can come up with numbers that agree between Quickload and OBT predictions.

    Since Quickload gives a Barrel Time from 10% of Pmax to exiting the barrel, do you need to add the time spent from zero to 10% of Pmax? Should this sum be approximately equal to the OBT prediction?

    Or do you simply use the Quickload Barrel Time and ignore the time from zero to 10% of Pmax?

    Note : I know how to adjust Ba to make the predicted velocity equal to the actual velocity. I am also using the case capacity of water weight, and the bullet length in Quickload.
     
    Part of the problem with the online information made available by Chis Long (creator of OBT) is that his focus is on the "how come," not the "how to." I might still be spinning my wheels if I had not come across the work of a shooter by name of David Wilson. David posted much more practical information, which included the answer to your question:



    I took that to mean I should use the barrel time given in the 'Results' window (from 10% of Pmax), not the one given in the 'Diagram' window (from ignition). So I do. Seems to work for me. I suspect that means the shock wave doesn't get fired up at primer ignition but early in the pressure rise.

    If you're interested in reading what else David had to say about using OBT, he's let his web site lapse so the pages no longer at the original address, but they are still available at the Internet Archive. At least for now. They're here, here and here. The third of those three is a PDF (from which I captured the image above). The second already is missing some of the images so it might not be long for this world.

    You might be interested to know that Ba isn't the only QL property that is/can be used to match range data to QL predictions. Weighting Factor and bullet weight both also are used, and potentially all three in combination with each other. Chris Long wrote in a different gun forum that he begins with Ba (up to 5%), then tweaks Weighting Factor (up to 10%), then finally bullet weight. But I know other OBT shooters who tweak bullet weight or Weighting Factor first, and to equal effect. I also happen to shoot hBN or WS2 coated bullets, which also gives me the "Friction reduction multiplier" to use. The point is to get QL's predictions to match your range data at at least two points.

    OBT is 80% science and 20% voodoo, and sometimes the voodoo part can be a bitch.
     
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    Tag, for when I am back at my computer. I gotta admit, although use quickload quite a lot, I don't think I am using it to its full potential.
     
    I've had great results just tweaking Ba & Weighting factor. I use actual measured bullet weight.

    With everything input properly, I usually get within .03grains of my OCW just using QL, with it being dead on to the grain a few lucky times. I still have to do a mini OCW to confirm, but the range I have to test is much smaller.
     
    I agree, I'm not using mine to full potential either. Please explain what the difference between barrel time and 10% PMAX to muzzle is. I'm not clear on that. Thanks-
     
    I believe Chris Long specifically states he uses 10% in Quick Load for simplicity. Also be sure to use your measured water capacity; it makes a huge difference not only for BT but also for velocity and especially pressure for safety (big deal for all the 308 commercial and mil brass).
     
    I ran an experiment this weekend in which I loaded a couple rounds with 0.7 gr more and 0.7 gr less, than my accurate load, and shot them for accuracy. I noted the results from Quickload for these two points along with the accurate load.

    From this, it looks like the Barrel Time result in Quickload is the one to use to predict accuracy by getting close to a OBT node.

    When I obtained the time from zero to 10% of Pmax, and added it to Barrel Time, this did not match well with the OBT node in terms of accuracy prediction.
     
    Good day,

    Better results with total barrel time rather than 10% times. Worked better with a number of different calibers and bullets.

    Thanks,
    DocB
     
    This is fascinating to me and i think it's absolutely spot on. One thing I will add is that after years of shooting and loading I believe you can feel a load that is optimally timed and or ocw through the type of recoil. I seem to be able to feel the vibration or resonance of the barrel when I fire it. When the load is on there is no lasting recoil felt to me. It's simply sharp and done if that makes sense. Maybe I'm nuts tho. Lol
     
    I believe Chris Long specifically states he uses 10% in Quick Load for simplicity....
    CharlieNC, I was going to disagree because I was certain Chris had neglected to specify that detail, but I HATE the taste of feet so I went back through his stuff first to reduce the chances I might have to stick mine in my mouth and, SHAZZAM, and you are right. My apologies to Chris Long for besmirching his work. From the Optimal Barrel Time Paper:

    ...The simulation was used to predict the optimum bullet barrel dwell times (10% Pmax to exit) as a function of barrel length, as shown in Table 1:...

    I must admit I had overlooked that detail. Or forgotten. Most likely overlooked.


    ShtrRdy, one thing to consider is that OBT doesn't claim to be able to determine the location of all accuracy nodes, only those nodes created by a specific harmonic node, the one Chris theorizes to be most influential to accuracy. It does not rule out the existence of other accuracy nodes. One of its drawbacks is that if you use OBT to full effect, use it to make your load development process as abbreviated as possible, you necessarily are leaving other, possibly more accurate combinations untested.

    That said, I'm not sure what you were hoping to discover, but I don't think your data supports your conclusion. Since you arrived at that original OBT charge weight by your own tweaking, the fact that other charge weights grouped tighter does nothing to indicate whether the problem was in your tweaking, or in your choice of barrel times, or in something altogether different.

    In any case, a charge weight increment of 0.7 grains can only move you from one OBT node to the next adjacent node in the case of a light bullet in a low capacity cartridge fired through a short barrel. I just checked my pet .204 load in QL and doubling that charge amount to 1.4 grains will get me onto the next node, exactly, but only in the case of an already compressed load, and only then if I dial the barrel length back to 16", which moves the nodes closer together. So unless you're shooting a 45-gr bullet from a 14 1/2" M4, I fail to see the practical application.


    The objective of the initial OBT range sessions has nothing to do with OBT per se and everything to do with truing your QL settings to your range data. It takes at least two points of data to establish a trend, and the greater the distance between them, the more validity to the trend. Which means you have to load at least two different charge weights, as widely separated as practicable, and then tweak QL's parameters to make the data from both loads fit. From your description I don't get the sense that that's what you've done.

    There is no reason you couldn't begin trying to match data at two points on your first range session, but I liken that to trying to build a bridge by starting in the middle of the river and working toward either bank. I don't bother with a second charge weight until I finally get QL and the chrono to agree on the first load -- which sometimes takes as many as three range sessions -- because up until then, none of the QL settings has proved itself. At least when QL and the chrono finally agree on one load, I know I have one valid point of data.

    But only one. And one is not enough. One point you can match by pure coincidence. The more points you match, the more the Principle of Occam's Razor rules out coincidence. So you might be guessing at the QL settings, but the more points you can match, the greater the likelihood that your guesses are causing QL to create a simulation that accurately represents a real world phenomenon.

    Which also is why there are multiple properties available for tweaking. Tweaking for one load is no challenge whatsoever. If that was all there was to it, Ba is all you'd ever need. But you might find that increasing Ba moves two loads closer together for a while, but then they cease converging. Or you reach Pmax. So you leave Ba where they came closest, then try tweaking weighting factor. Or bullet weight.

    Tweak QL, predict new charge weight, load, test, repeat. Until QL and chrono agree. The process is a converging spiral, and it takes as long as it takes before you hit dead center. Only then do I introduce the additional complication of the second charge weight. If its MV doesn't match QL's prediction (anything else is a rare as hobbyhorse shit), then I begin the complex process of arbitrarily tweaking whatever QL property trips my trigger, but always aware that these fudged settings still have to match the MVs from BOTH loads.


    Then I turn to finding the optimal seating depth. I typically fire more rounds tweaking seating depth than finding the OBT charge weight, at least when it's the first time I've tested a particular bullet. But it's not the charge weight that's magic, it's the MV, because the MV is the indicator of OBT. So that charge weight might change when tweaking seating depth. In my .308 loads, for instance, each change of 0.01 in seating depth roughly correlates to 0.1 gr in charge weight. So I tend to start seated to max magazine length, then seat deeper, reducing charge weight as necessary to maintain that magic MV.

    So just because you've got your OBT node's MV nailed, you've still not made optimal use of it, not exploited it's full accuracy potential, until you've found the optimal jump that also maintains the magic MV.
     
    This is fascinating to me and i think it's absolutely spot on. One thing I will add is that after years of shooting and loading I believe you can feel a load that is optimally timed and or ocw through the type of recoil. I seem to be able to feel the vibration or resonance of the barrel when I fire it. When the load is on there is no lasting recoil felt to me. It's simply sharp and done if that makes sense. Maybe I'm nuts tho. Lol


    No,,you aren't nuts, I know what you mean, I just wish it worked all of the time...
     
    CharlieNC, I was going to disagree because I was certain Chris had neglected to specify that detail, but I HATE the taste of feet so I went back through his stuff first to reduce the chances I might have to stick mine in my mouth and, SHAZZAM, and you are right. My apologies to Chris Long for besmirching his work. From the Optimal Barrel Time Paper:

    I must admit I had overlooked that detail. Or forgotten. Most likely overlooked.

    ShtrRdy, one thing to consider is that OBT doesn't claim to be able to determine the location of all accuracy nodes, only those nodes created by a specific harmonic node, the one Chris theorizes to be most influential to accuracy. It does not rule out the existence of other accuracy nodes. One of its drawbacks is that if you use OBT to full effect, use it to make your load development process as abbreviated as possible, you necessarily are leaving other, possibly more accurate combinations untested.

    That said, I'm not sure what you were hoping to discover, but I don't think your data supports your conclusion. Since you arrived at that original OBT charge weight by your own tweaking, the fact that other charge weights grouped tighter does nothing to indicate whether the problem was in your tweaking, or in your choice of barrel times, or in something altogether different.

    In any case, a charge weight increment of 0.7 grains can only move you from one OBT node to the next adjacent node in the case of a light bullet in a low capacity cartridge fired through a short barrel. I just checked my pet .204 load in QL and doubling that charge amount to 1.4 grains will get me onto the next node, exactly, but only in the case of an already compressed load, and only then if I dial the barrel length back to 16", which moves the nodes closer together. So unless you're shooting a 45-gr bullet from a 14 1/2" M4, I fail to see the practical application.


    The objective of the initial OBT range sessions has nothing to do with OBT per se and everything to do with truing your QL settings to your range data. It takes at least two points of data to establish a trend, and the greater the distance between them, the more validity to the trend. Which means you have to load at least two different charge weights, as widely separated as practicable, and then tweak QL's parameters to make the data from both loads fit. From your description I don't get the sense that that's what you've done.

    There is no reason you couldn't begin trying to match data at two points on your first range session, but I liken that to trying to build a bridge by starting in the middle of the river and working toward either bank. I don't bother with a second charge weight until I finally get QL and the chrono to agree on the first load -- which sometimes takes as many as three range sessions -- because up until then, none of the QL settings has proved itself. At least when QL and the chrono finally agree on one load, I know I have one valid point of data.

    But only one. And one is not enough. One point you can match by pure coincidence. The more points you match, the more the Principle of Occam's Razor rules out coincidence. So you might be guessing at the QL settings, but the more points you can match, the greater the likelihood that your guesses are causing QL to create a simulation that accurately represents a real world phenomenon.

    Which also is why there are multiple properties available for tweaking. Tweaking for one load is no challenge whatsoever. If that was all there was to it, Ba is all you'd ever need. But you might find that increasing Ba moves two loads closer together for a while, but then they cease converging. Or you reach Pmax. So you leave Ba where they came closest, then try tweaking weighting factor. Or bullet weight.

    Tweak QL, predict new charge weight, load, test, repeat. Until QL and chrono agree. The process is a converging spiral, and it takes as long as it takes before you hit dead center. Only then do I introduce the additional complication of the second charge weight. If its MV doesn't match QL's prediction (anything else is a rare as hobbyhorse shit), then I begin the complex process of arbitrarily tweaking whatever QL property trips my trigger, but always aware that these fudged settings still have to match the MVs from BOTH loads.


    Then I turn to finding the optimal seating depth. I typically fire more rounds tweaking seating depth than finding the OBT charge weight, at least when it's the first time I've tested a particular bullet. But it's not the charge weight that's magic, it's the MV, because the MV is the indicator of OBT. So that charge weight might change when tweaking seating depth. In my .308 loads, for instance, each change of 0.01 in seating depth roughly correlates to 0.1 gr in charge weight. So I tend to start seated to max magazine length, then seat deeper, reducing charge weight as necessary to maintain that magic MV.

    So just because you've got your OBT node's MV nailed, you've still not made optimal use of it, not exploited it's full accuracy potential, until you've found the optimal jump that also maintains the magic MV.

    I think you may be applying some assumptions to your reasoning. I was applying this to a 300 Win Mag, so 0.7 grain increments do not move me to the next node. At 0.7 gr off, I experienced one shot very close to the "accurate" shots, and the other two shots were in another location about 1" away. This occurred for both the +0.7gr and the -0.7gr, with the movement being in different directions.

    Thanks for sharing your experiences and suggestions. I don't know if I want to take QL to the level you are suggesting. I'm happy that I came across a precise load with minimal effort. - Todd
     
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    For the benefit of anyone trying to follow my logic concerning truing QL to your range data, let me make clear what I'm talking about by detailing the procedure.

    Suppose I want to work up a 168-gr SMK .308 load with Varget for a rifle with a 20" bbl. Hodgdon lists the max charge for that load at 46 grains, so that's what I enter as the starting charge weight in QL. For the sake of this example, I used default values for everything else.

    46 grains gives me a predicted barrel time of 0.999, but that is nowhere near close to an OBT node (nodes listed according to barrel length here), and I need to match the node's BT at least to the first two decimal places. So I have to either add or subtract powder in QL until I get to one.

    I don't want to add any more powder because I'm already at the published max, so I look for the charge weight that will produce a barrel time matching the next slower (numerically higher) node. In this case that would be 1.0257. So I reduce charge weight in QL to get as close as possible to that figure. Which happens to be 45.1-gr., with a BT of 1.027 at 2623 fps. So my initial QL-truing loads will be 45.1-gr.

    Then I chrono those loads. In general I'm happy if the difference between predicted and actual is no more than the change in MV represented by a 0.1-gr difference in charge weight, but not so much as 0.2-gr. In this case, 0.2 grains makes about 12 fps difference. So 12 fps is my hard limit, but I'd prefer no more than 5-6 fps.

    So let's say I shoot those 45.1-gr loads and they average to 2604. The target was 2623, so that's outside my 12 fps hard limit, which means I have to tweak QL to bring them closer together. So I start fudging the load's burning rate factor (Ba), chasing after that 2604 fps. Default Ba is 0.6150, and Chris's rule for tweaking Ba is not to exceed 5%, which comes to 0.030. But 0.6060 gets me 2604 fps exactly, and I'm still well shy of the 5% limit. So my new Ba is 0.6060.

    You can't change the default Ba in QL; you have to create a custom powder file. I prefer to just record the new Ba in the log file I keep for that load.

    But a Ba of 0.6060 isn't as fast as a Ba of 0.6150, so when I change the Ba, QL also changes the predicted barrel time. And that's not good because the ultimate goal is that my real world barrel time match the OBT. Which means the next load will need a heavier charge weight to get the BT back o 1.0257.

    Follow me? When I change the Ba to make that charge weight's predicted MV match the range data, QL also changes the barrel time. Because the reduced Ba means the bullet takes longer to leave the barrel. So the act of tweaking Ba (or any other property) to make the predicted and actual MVs match ALWAYS screws up your barrel time. So any time you use a different Ba, you also need to change the charge weight, otherwise you'll miss the targeted barrel time, the OBT node. This is the reason you get that converging spiral I referred to above.

    With a Ba of 0.6060, 45.5-gr gets me a predicted BT of 1.026 (target is 1.0257), and a MV of 2626 fps, so my next experimental loads will have a charge weight of 45.5-gr. And if they average to between 2621 and 2631, I'll mark it a hit. Less than 2614 or more than 2638 and it's mandatory to do additional QL tweaking and shoot another round of tests. Anywhere in between is a judgement call.

    Tweak QL, predict new charge weight, load, test, repeat. Until QL and chrono agree.


    Understand too that this is a process engineered to economize on loading supplies, not necessarily on range trips, unless you can load at the range. If that is not a concern, if you are flush with loading supplies, or if you're simply in a hurry, just load up five or six loads either side of the predicted OBT load, plus the OBT load itself, all separated in increments of 0.5-1% of a 100% case fill. 0.5% increases the odds you'll get a direct hit on the perfect OBT charge weight, but 1.0% means you're casting a wider net, and increases the odds that you'll "bracket" the OBT load.

    Three loads each (for averaging MVs) at 11 different charge weights (five times two, plus one) makes 33 rounds. At 1% increments means you're going both up and down by 5% in charge weight. When you cross-reference your charge weights and MVs, it's a virtual certainty two of them will sit straddle the perfect OBT velocity. And you've identified the OBT charge weight for that first round to within, at most, 0.5% of case fill.

    Then all you have to do is predict the charge weight for that second test load. I usually target the slowest (numerically largest) OBT node that doesn't go below the mfgr's published minimum charge weight. And that's when the real hair-pulling begins. Tweaking this, that and the other until you've found the combination that suits both real world MVs.


    But if your goal was not to economize on rounds expended in the process, you'd have been better served to have done OCW or Audette instead. Because they leave no doubt about the non-OBT nodes that might be lurking about, at the expense of more rounds down range.
     
    Mr Fred_C_Dobbs, do you have any experience on what to do with QL if you just change primer brands and get a different velocity? - Todd
     
    Mr Fred_C_Dobbs, do you have any experience on what to do with QL if you just change primer brands and get a different velocity? - Todd
    Short answer, no. I've never changed primers and then tried to make everything balance in QL.

    You might try fiddling with Shot Start Pressure. One of QL's more glaring flaws is it has no variable to accomodate for differences in primer brisance. Its instructions don't mention changing SSP for that purpose but I know shooters who do.
     
    Factory loads and OBT

    Ok, so I am brand new to SH and still relatively new to long range shooting and trying to learn as much as I can. I already have a long range bolt rifle, and am thinking of getting myself a SASS as well. Looking at different semi-auto manufacturers and looking at different models with different barrel lengths caused me to wonder if there was a "better" barrel length for increased accuracy. To my primitive mind, I tend to prefer longer barrels with the (probably flawed) thinking that a longer barrel will have higher velocities, flatter trajectories, and in the end better accuracy at longer ranges. This mindset was challenged by the fact that after I bought my rifle (.300 WM with 24" barrel) and typically get 3/4 minute (sometimes less than .5) groups, my brother bought the same rifle (but in .308 Win with a 20" barrel) and less than .5 MOA is more common, even with me shooting it.

    In short, my brother tends to get better groups across a wider range of loads than I do with my rifle with a longer barrel. So I started researching if there was an ideal barrel length and stumbled across the concept of Optimum Barrel Time. I read Chris Long's paper on the topic and found it quite interesting, especially with the apparent corroboration that members on SH have given it.

    My issue then is as follows. All of the talk about Quick Load and OBT seems to be talking about how to best find the optimum loads for reloading. At the moment, I do not as yet do my own reloading. This is something that I intend on getting into, but haven't gotten to yet.

    So after this long winded explanation, I now have the following question.... Is there any data available on factory loads and what the OBT is for those loads? For instance, after playing around with several kinds of ammunition I have found that Black Hills 190 gr. BTHP tends to shoot better in my rifle than other rounds such as FGMM or HSM Bergers. However my brother's rifle tends to shoot it all right about the same. Is this a result of OBT on the various loads or is there something extra I am missing?

    Here is a target shot with Black Hills 190 gr. Match.

    IMAG0046.jpg

    Then a target shot with FGMM.
    IMAG0057.jpg

    So.... In the effort to find best factory loads for various rifles, is there a resource for what barrel lengths are best for different factory loads....?
     
    Can someone help me under stand on QL what the 10% of Pmax to muzzle means? Don need to add in the 10% to the number QL gives me?