Rifle Scopes  Philosophy of high end optics...

xxflyingturtlexx

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I would like to know what more do i get if i left Banana Republic and walked into a Neimun Marcus. I would only like intelligent answers, and would prefer a reply of highest standards... gtfo. People would would explain if you get it, but you won't. If you did, or was smart enough to do the homework yourself so, you wouldn't have started this thread. I love the virtue signalling though.... calling people swj and s..t haha
 

brianf

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i never understand how people can
I would just as happy with my 2400sqft house and myvranch in Wyoming and my fishing boat in the Keys as the guy in his 30,000sqft house. For me it's about bang for the buck......not bragging rights. I just cant see why seeing the hair on a nat's nutsack at 2 miles is so much more important than just seeing his nutsack? I fully understand quality, but at some point there's diminishing returns .....I think.
Hey if ya got it...spend it! The economy needs tha help!


why cant i have both the mansion and the boat

i want the mansion, the yacht, the vacation home and the scope...

but im a type A person (so im told), i always want better or more

its not bragging rights its enjoyment, not every expensive car is bought to brag to your neighbor

people get confused between their particular situation and someone else.

the OP didnt speak of budget it was a question of price to worth ratio

im 99% sure that if everyone on this site had won lotto they would have a AI with a TT etc

every other post (with in reason) is trying to justify why they are not buying those items

there is a reason why every rifle thread starts with AI vs ??? or is a SB or TT worth it
 
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Bakwa

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I would like to know what more do i get if i left Banana Republic and walked into a Neimun Marcus. I would only like intelligent answers, and would prefer a reply of highest standards... gtfo. People would would explain if you get it, but you won't. If you did, or was smart enough to do the homework yourself so, you wouldn't have started this thread. I love the virtue signalling though.... calling people swj and s..t haha

Your English is horrific friend.
But from what I gather you're trying to say, I would respond with, why even have a forum then? That is if all questions can easily be answered by a little simple research. Also, by saying what you said, I feel that you missed the point of what I'm trying to get at in this thread.

I was attempting to have a focused conversation on what motivated people to choose optics in one price range over another and if they feel that their choice was justified after the fact. I wanted people to articulate more than what can be found on a simple spec sheet. I want to know if people think that the glass on their S&B is really that much better than the ATACR they had before, or if they feel like it's the same. And then if they feel like the S&B was worth the extra premium...

But I'm the one virtue signalling? The one trying to have open conversation about a topic, while others are trying to suppress it, naming an imaginary source where all this information that I want is already at but yet can't connect me to this source. I'm just calling them out for what they are.

Yes, I do understand that people have voiced their opinions about my topic all over the internet within random threads. So are you and others telling me to familiarize myself with all possible threads on this forum instead of attempting to start a focused conversation with an appropriate title for the intended subject matter within?
 
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hafejd30

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    I was at a match last weekend. Shooting to 1200 yards. Lots of top shooters there running several optics and rifle platforms. Some customs, AI, Sako’s topped with NF, ZCO, Burris, TT, Vortex, Nikon and a few others

    Couple guys running AI rifles were having some feeding issues. One barely would run at all after trying several different mags. Neither would run reliably through an entire stage. Guys looked very frustrated. Couple customs went down with trigger lockups and failing to eject.

    Also personally witnessed 2 ATACR go down with tracking issues and 1 ZCO with a failed parallax. The range was very bright sunshine. Although the TT ran flawlessly you couldn’t make out the targets with the heavy mirage. Vortex Razor has the same issue. Owner was shopping for another scope before the match was over.

    The only scope to function flawlessly was a Bushnell Banner. Was mounted on a older Cabelas special savage in 6.5. The guy said he had about $700 total in the gun with the savage, banner and weaver tactical rings/base off eBay.

    The 5 top match spots went to 6.5 savage and Ruger rifles with the most expensive optic being a vortex Gen 1 PST.

    ^^^
    Here is the post all of @TheGerman poors are looking for when creating these threads.

    Just FYI this is all total BS (The winner obviously had a 308 and not the 6.5 as I stated above) and everyone used MOA/MOA optics
     

    Krob95

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    I was at a match last weekend. Shooting to 1200 yards. Lots of top shooters there running several optics and rifle platforms. Some customs, AI, Sako’s topped with NF, ZCO, Burris, TT, Vortex, Nikon and a few others

    Couple guys running AI rifles were having some feeding issues. One barely would run at all after trying several different mags. Neither would run reliably through an entire stage. Guys looked very frustrated. Couple customs went down with trigger lockups and failing to eject.

    Also personally witnessed 2 ATACR go down with tracking issues and 1 ZCO with a failed parallax. The range was very bright sunshine. Although the TT ran flawlessly you couldn’t make out the targets with the heavy mirage. Vortex Razor has the same issue. Owner was shopping for another scope before the match was over.

    The only scope to function flawlessly was a Bushnell Banner. Was mounted on a older Cabelas special savage in 6.5. The guy said he had about $700 total in the gun with the savage, banner and weaver tactical rings/base off eBay.

    The 5 top match spots went to 6.5 savage and Ruger rifles with the most expensive optic being a vortex Gen 1 PST.

    ^^^
    Here is the post all of @TheGerman poors are looking for when creating these threads.

    Just FYI this is all total BS (The winner obviously had a 308 and not the 6.5 as I stated above) and everyone used MOA/MOA optics
    You had me in the first half, not gonna lie 😂
     

    Bakwa

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    I was at a match last weekend. Shooting to 1200 yards. Lots of top shooters there running several optics and rifle platforms. Some customs, AI, Sako’s topped with NF, ZCO, Burris, TT, Vortex, Nikon and a few others

    Couple guys running AI rifles were having some feeding issues. One barely would run at all after trying several different mags. Neither would run reliably through an entire stage. Guys looked very frustrated. Couple customs went down with trigger lockups and failing to eject.

    Also personally witnessed 2 ATACR go down with tracking issues and 1 ZCO with a failed parallax. The range was very bright sunshine. Although the TT ran flawlessly you couldn’t make out the targets with the heavy mirage. Vortex Razor has the same issue. Owner was shopping for another scope before the match was over.

    The only scope to function flawlessly was a Bushnell Banner. Was mounted on a older Cabelas special savage in 6.5. The guy said he had about $700 total in the gun with the savage, banner and weaver tactical rings/base off eBay.

    The 5 top match spots went to 6.5 savage and Ruger rifles with the most expensive optic being a vortex Gen 1 PST.

    ^^^
    Here is the post all of @TheGerman poors are looking for when creating these threads.

    Just FYI this is all total BS (The winner obviously had a 308 and not the 6.5 as I stated above) and everyone used MOA/MOA optics

    That was good.
    You had me.

    To be fair, this is not one of those threads. Or should not be. I guess it's a failure on my part that so many have perceived it to be so.
     

    918v

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    If what you say is true, then why are ZCO's so hard to get right now and why do they resale for only $200-$400 off original price? The demand for their new reticle is nuts. Are you aware of ZCO' background with Nightforce and Kahles? This is one very misinformed post.

    What does ZCO’s background with NF and Kahles have to do with financial stability? Your point goes to quality and competence, not to sustainability.
     

    seansmd

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    I would just as happy with my 2400sqft house and myvranch in Wyoming and my fishing boat in the Keys as the guy in his 30,000sqft house. For me it's about bang for the buck......not bragging rights. I just cant see why seeing the hair on a nat's nutsack at 2 miles is so much more important than just seeing his nutsack? I fully understand quality, but at some point there's diminishing returns .....I think.
    Hey if ya got it...spend it! The economy needs tha help!
    You see you just made a bunch of buying decisions, that dude may value a compound over multiple places. Hopefully he has both!
     

    regency

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    What does ZCO’s background with NF and Kahles have to do with financial stability? Your point goes to quality and competence, not to sustainability.

    You missed my other point that their demand and resale speaks to sustainability, along with their experience. I waited about 2 months for a ZCO and I'm waiting about another month for another one.
     

    hlee

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    You missed my other point that their demand and resale speaks to sustainability, along with their experience. I waited about 2 months for a ZCO and I'm waiting about another month for another one.
    Market demand, especially secondary market, has essentially no bearing on sustainability. Sustainability in this sense is more about "how long can the company sustain itself in a prolonged recession, when the demand evaporates, or when supply lines dry up and force unforeseen product delays?" Lots of boutique manufacturers have a great product but external market forces make their business unsustainable. Cough JAE Cough...
     

    frank320

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    Every single one of us is different and every each of us have got our own unique set of circumstances. No one size fits all.
    Whether an X% incremental performance benefit is worth an additional Y dollars can only be answered by oneself. The question becomes how much is the incremental positive experience worth to YOU, given YOUR current circumstances?

    Will you miss your target because you used a NF NXS instead of a NF ATACR? Extremely unlikely. But if this is your hobby and passion, then paying an additional $1500 more for an "premium" better engineered scope is well worth it, as long as it allows you to enjoy your Sunday at the range that much more of a positive end to end experience.
     

    steve123

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    So let me ask this. If we are just punching hole in paper or banging bullets off steel. Does the difference between reading the grain structure of the steel or paper matter if everything else holds its own? I can understand the $50 Ebay vs $500 insert name brand glass. Should if I like the crosshairs up and thr bullet hit where I aim all that matters? Now unless a come into a windfall of money will never be able to afford a $2000+ optic and probably wouldn't spend that much if I could. I have Lee's than that is rifle and scope that hit what I aim at. I guess if I was shooting 2-3 miles like the creedmore guys I might need one....

    I want to "SEE" where I miss in the dirt, etc, so I can correct as needed. Often with cheaper scopes I see where the debris is wafting away in the wind but I'm not sure how far out I missed, or how low or high I missed, so it might take 2-3 shots Fn around till I have it figured out.

    Happens with great glass too but it's easier to make out what's going on.
     

    regency

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    Market demand, especially secondary market, has essentially no bearing on sustainability. Sustainability in this sense is more about "how long can the company sustain itself in a prolonged recession, when the demand evaporates, or when supply lines dry up and force unforeseen product delays?" Lots of boutique manufacturers have a great product but external market forces make their business unsustainable. Cough JAE Cough...

    No but it does show demand and demand has not ‘evaporated’ for ZCO. This is starting to make my head hurt.
     

    Bakwa

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    I demoed every scope I could and then bought the one that I liked the most. Pretty simple really.
    I wish I could.
    All of the guys at the long ranges I've been to shoot Razor's, Burris', and NF.
    I don't even know where I could find a S&B or ZCO in north Florida.
    And I really don't want to wait till I travel out of state for a match again. That likely won't be until 2021.
    I envy you guys that can just demo stuff.
     

    TheBigCountry

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    I wish I could.
    All of the guys at the long ranges I've been to shoot Razor's, Burris', and NF.
    I don't even know where I could find a S&B or ZCO in north Florida.
    And I really don't want to wait till I travel out of state for a match again. That likely won't be until 2021.
    I envy you guys that can just demo stuff.

    Volusia County has a pretty big range and they hold matches; there’s a user here who shoots there

    First coast Guns shoots at ancient city, and I’ve seen their FB ads where they run some nice gear at matches including SB, NF, etc.

    If you drive over to the panhandle Altus is there

    And lastly, OTM tactical is here in Jax and they carry some nice stuff.
     
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    Bakwa

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    Volusia County has a pretty big range and they hold matches; there’s a user here who shoots there

    First coast Guns shoots at ancient city, and I’ve seen their FB ads where they run some nice gear at matches including SB, NF, etc.

    If you drive over to the panhandle Altus is there

    And lastly, OTM tactical is here in Jax and they carry some nice stuff.
    Thank you!

    I had no idea Altus was in FL. Guess I never looked. This is good to know.
    Jax is close. I'll have to make the drive to visit OTM Tac.
     

    TheBigCountry

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    Thank you!

    I had no idea Altus was in FL. Guess I never looked. This is good to know.
    Jax is close. I'll have to make the drive to visit OTM Tac.
    You’re welcome.

    no idea where you’re at in N FL, but there’s several spots around that offer long range shooting and I’m sure if you linked up with some of the crowd they’d let you see some of the mentioned scopes.
     
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    Lazyfaire

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    Perhaps I'm going about this in the wrong way.
    Can one of you more intelligent that me posters direct me to a set of words or a phrase to search for that will address this topic of conversation? Or link a particular thread?
    Have you ever known anyone who was a stereo and speaker nut in the old days? A better stereo amp with more power, to drive bigger monitor speakers, to play at a louder decibel level until the windows shake? Point it, yes I think you can certainly spend enough money but unless you want to shoot 2 miles do you need to? That's the question you have to ask.
     
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    TacticalPlinker

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    Why buy a Lambo when a Vette is almost as fast ?

    Because you can.... :)
     

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    Lazyfaire

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    I'm a hunter and a self taught long range shooter.
    I have two 800m ranges and a 1000m range at my disposal depending on where I'm at in FL.
    I eventually want to take some long range classes but want to seek the best avenue. [Many advanced classes require their own in house basic class as a prerequisite, so I might want to pick the right basic course to set me up.]

    Scope wise,
    I want objectively great glass/coatings. [I've looked through a S&B (idk what model it was) on a bad day next a PST, Mk4, & Steiner Predator. I want to chase that level of clarity and usability under harsh conditions.]
    50mm objective.
    35oz max weight.
    I'm still reticle shopping, but I'm used to very basic mil reticles. So most anything will be an upgrade. I'd like something for easier holdovers but I don't like a cluttered picture. I'm studying and leaning towards the MPCT2 or MPCT3. The 2 being less cluttered looking and the 3 appearing easier to use.
    A locking turret would be very nice but not necessary.
    Zero stop of some sort.
    Not as concerned with tube size as I'll be running ARC M10's.
    It has to be FFP. [It's going on a 22" 6.5CM I'm having built and I was either going to move a FFP over from another shorter rifle and grab a NXS as an appropriate workhorse for that shorter rifle, or buy a higher end FFP just for this new rifle. That's really why I started this thread.]
    I want the parallax to be forgiving.
    The controls just have to be usable. [I don't need TT clicky's to make me feel better about this one.]
    And the last thing but perhaps one of the most important, I need for it to be durable. [I want to have the best chance of me never having to send this optic in after I've abused it for years to come.]

    Perhaps I just described an ATACR too. I've shot from one a few times even. Great scope. It just didn't wow me like the S&B did. And the ZCO has my attention based reviews alone.
    I just wanted to know why many of you jumped to that next tier of optic. I know all of you can't be just that rich.

    Cheers
    The new Tract Toric 34 mm 4.5-30x56 $1800
     

    Bakwa

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    Have you ever known anyone who was a stereo and speaker nut in the old days? A better stereo amp with more power, to drive bigger monitor speakers, to play at a louder decibel level until the windows shake? Point it, yes I think you can certainly spend enough money but unless you want to shoot 2 miles do you need to? That's the question you have to ask.

    Why buy a Lambo when a Vette is almost as fast ?

    Because you can.... :)

    Good points.
    I guess I've just seen how much more performance a Vette gives over a Camry firsthand, and I'm attempting to extend that logic onward to the next tier.
    So in this discussion, if we were to consider a Vortex Viper to be our Camry, then what would the Vette be? An ATACR?
     

    Maedho12

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    Very few people can say the have the best of anything- car, house, wife etc. For $3500 you can honestly say you have the best optic money can buy, it seems like a bargain to me.

    The average Joe spends more money on fast food, beer, and cable television per year. I say buy whatever makes you happy and enjoy it because if you don't your wife will spend it for you.
     

    SRPowah

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    Have you ever known anyone who was a stereo and speaker nut in the old days? A better stereo amp with more power, to drive bigger monitor speakers, to play at a louder decibel level until the windows shake? Point it, yes I think you can certainly spend enough money but unless you want to shoot 2 miles do you need to? That's the question you have to ask.
    I actually disagree with your analogy. I spend more on my audio gear to have a cleaner sound. Makes music much more enjoyable when everything is balanced out properly. No window rattling.

    Just like a tier 1 optic will likely shine vs the cheaper options even at 800 yards on a day with shitty environmental conditions. You don't need to shoot 2 miles to see a difference in optic tiers. If you can't see it, that might be your eyes or your financial brains holding you back.
     

    Lazyfaire

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    I actually disagree with your analogy. I spend more on my audio gear to have a cleaner sound. Makes music much more enjoyable when everything is balanced out properly. No window rattling.

    Just like a tier 1 optic will likely shine vs the cheaper options even at 800 yards on a day with shitty environmental conditions. You don't need to shoot 2 miles to see a difference in optic tiers. If you can't see it, that might be your eyes or your financial brains holding you back.
    Probably a lot of both
     
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    SRPowah

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    Good points.
    I guess I've just seen how much more performance a Vette gives over a Camry firsthand, and I'm attempting to extend that logic onward to the next tier.
    So in this discussion, if we were to consider a Vortex Viper to be our Camry, then what would the Vette be? An ATACR?

    Viper starting as the Camry will exaggerate whatever gap there is.
    This is going to piss people off when I offend their optic of choice with my bad placement but...

    Camry/Civic = SWFA Fixed 10x
    Camaro/Mustang = Vortex PST
    Corvette = Athlon Cronus/Razors
    Super Cars: Ferrari/Lambo = S&B/Kahles
    Hyper Cars: McLaren P1/Bugatti = ZCO/TT

    You can roughly place anything you want anywhere, or shift it around. Plenty of scopes punch above their weight like a hopped up Stang. As someone that currently owns two ATACRs, I don't know where to put them. lol I love them, but I think they are a tier below S&B or Kahles most days.
     
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    TheBigCountry

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    Here’s my drops in the bucket

    I remember a while ago @Rob01 posts about dumping his S&B for the Razors. His posts and talking to him helped me drop the coin on one of the new 3-18’s when they first came out (thanks Rob you had me come to the dark side and I still can’t leave). It was an amazing scope, and if it wasn’t for Jody and his treachery I would have never sold that scope.

    you could buy once/cry once, but always remember it’s the Indian, not the arrow. I bet if you gave one of the top shooters a Savage and a Quigley Ford they could outshoot me with a laser guided rifle.
     
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    Bakwa

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    Viper starting as the Camry will exaggerate whatever gap there is.
    This is going to piss people off when I offend their optic of choice with my bad placement but...

    Camry/Civic = SWFA Fixed 10x
    Camaro/Mustang = Vortex PST
    Corvette = Athlon Cronus/Razors
    Super Cars: Ferrari/Lambo = S&B/Kahles
    Hyper Cars: McLaren P1/Bugatti = ZCO/TT

    You can roughly place anything you want anywhere, or shift it around. Plenty of scopes punch above their weight like a hopped up Stang. As someone that currently owns two ATACRs, I don't know where to put them. lol I love them, but I think they are a tier below S&B or Kahles most days.

    For some reason, your list makes me want a ZCO more.
    ZCO, the Bugatti of scopes... I like the sound of that.
    :ROFLMAO:
     

    jgsh1375

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    Can someone please explain to me why it is that there's always one individual who seems to be compelled to respond to a legitimate question with a sarcastic, rude and usually unintelligent response? Is it that the question is insulting to one's great wisdom that the mere thought of the question is beneath their intelligence level and just frustrates them to no end? Or is it that there's a need to show dominance and superiority? Regardless, why can't they just not respond, turn the page and go on to another thread? An insulting response is a sure sign of one's low intelligence level. Not everyone is a professional shooter and, those that are not, ask questions to learn and educate themselves. But time and time again, it turns out the ones with demeaning and insulting responses are typically amateurs themselves, trying to impress others. Just my thoughts.
     

    rottenruger

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    I want to start a conversation about why someone would want to pay $3500+ for optics like Tangent Theta or ZCO over $1500-$2000 options, and under what circumstances one feels justified in doing so.

    After peering through enough glass, it becomes evident what you're paying for when you spend a bit more. The difference between a $500 scope and a $1500 may even be evident to an untrained bystander who doesn't know what they're looking for.
    But how much are you really gaining by moving from that mid tier price range to the high end game? Is the ZCO more durable than a NXS? Does it have better glass than a Razor? Do the Tangent Theta's track better and 'click' that much nicer than a BTR?

    My question for those that own higher end optics is, why did you choose what you did over other proven solid options that come in at half the price?
    In the end, is A ZCO or S&B PMII really worth two NXS's?

    EDIT:
    Update: Anyone seeking to read about the topic of this thread should start at post #38 and proceed from there, and it get's better on the second page. Warning: Almost all posts before #38, you will have to wade through trolls who are warning about how this topic will go to crap, which is ironic and self fulfilling because they are the ones that are posting off topic.
    Cheers
    I think of this as mostly a "what can you afford that you know how to use" question. In this affluent age, many of us can afford equipment FAR beyond our needs, our abilities and our purposes. But we aspire to better, so if we can afford it, we get it.

    My goal is to shoot a thousand yards reliably, so I keep upgrading my rifles, my optics and my reloadings. I'm pretty sure I've got the rifles to do the job adequately now, and I'm increasingly confident in my loading skills and equipments. Optics and their mounts are where I still see room for improvement. I want a Sphur mount and an undetermined scope. I am shooting with mid-range vortex and sightron, while I dream of nightforce or even more special. DO I need even what I have now? Hell no, unless the SHTF, in which case I'll need everything I ever dreamed of, you know? I don't hunt, but I've ALL the equip I need to do so on the hardware end.

    Oh, Technique! I still need to work on that, too, particularly not pulling the trigger. I'm good for minus MOA at 500 (on my good days), but that's far short of 1000.

    RPR 6.5 Creedmoore with Vortex scope.


    ps: I'm 70 without the best sight, if that adds some perspective here!
     

    rottenruger

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    Can someone please explain to me why it is that there's always one individual who seems to be compelled to respond to a legitimate question with a sarcastic, rude and usually unintelligent response? Is it that the question is insulting to one's great wisdom that the mere thought of the question is beneath their intelligence level and just frustrates them to no end? Or is it that there's a need to show dominance and superiority? Regardless, why can't they just not respond, turn the page and go on to another thread? An insulting response is a sure sign of one's low intelligence level. Not everyone is a professional shooter and, those that are not, ask questions to learn and educate themselves. But time and time again, it turns out the ones with demeaning and insulting responses are typically amateurs themselves, trying to impress others. Just my thoughts.
    Smartassism?
     

    Bakwa

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    I think of this as mostly a "what can you afford that you know how to use" question. In this affluent age, many of us can afford equipment FAR beyond our needs, our abilities and our purposes. But we aspire to better, so if we can afford it, we get it.

    My goal is to shoot a thousand yards reliably, so I keep upgrading my rifles, my optics and my reloadings. I'm pretty sure I've got the rifles to do the job adequately now, and I'm increasingly confident in my loading skills and equipments. Optics and their mounts are where I still see room for improvement. I want a Sphur mount and an undetermined scope. I am shooting with mid-range vortex and sightron, while I dream of nightforce or even more special. DO I need even what I have now? Hell no, unless the SHTF, in which case I'll need everything I ever dreamed of, you know? I don't hunt, but I've ALL the equip I need to do so on the hardware end.

    Oh, Technique! I still need to work on that, too, particularly not pulling the trigger. I'm good for minus MOA at 500 (on my good days), but that's far short of 1000.

    RPR 6.5 Creedmoore with Vortex scope.


    ps: I'm 70 without the best sight, if that adds some perspective here!
    I guess the reason I started this thread is because I don't want to keep upgrading. I want to buy something that will work for me for years to come. I'm confident that my current P4Xi 4-16x56 is all that I "need" for the ranges I shoot. I'm also confident that I can use that scope to the extent of it's ability in the field and on the range. But instead of getting the same scope [they're a great value] for my next rifle, I plan to move up to something better because I want a more rugged more usable sighting tool.
    The question is, if I'm already spending money, then how far should I go? What will I be satisfied with 5 years from now?
    It's a hard question I know, and only one that I can answer. I do like reading other's opinions though. Just in case I can gain some valuable perspective.
     
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    FourT6and2

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    Feb 13, 2017
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    I guess the reason I started this thread is because I don't want to keep upgrading. I want to buy something that will work for me for years to come. I'm confident that my current P4Xi 4-16x56 is all that I "need" for the ranges I shoot. I'm also confident that I can use that scope to the extent of it's ability in the field and on the range. But instead of getting the same scope [they're a great value] for my next rifle, I plan to move up to something better because I want a more rugged more usable sighting tool.
    The question is, if I'm already spending money, then how far should I go? What will I be satisfied with 5 years from now?
    It's a hard question I know, and only one that I can answer. I do like reading other's opinions though. Just in case I can gain some valuable perspective.

    It's gonna come down to the features you want and the features you're willing to pay for and the price of the scope. Nobody else can make the decision for you. Figure your own shit out. I don't mean this as an insult. If you are willing to pay more money for some feature, then do it. If not, then don't. I can sit here and tell you that $4.5K for a TT is worth it to me, but that don't make it worth it to you.
     
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    TripleBull

    This one goes to 11
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  • Feb 13, 2017
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    I think of this as mostly a "what can you afford that you know how to use" question. In this affluent age, many of us can afford equipment FAR beyond our needs, our abilities and our purposes. But we aspire to better, so if we can afford it, we get it.

    ^^^ One of the more balanced perspectives in the thread.

    I use to work in propagation of error determination in measurement science, so I look at my shooting realistically. Do I really "deserve" a 0.2 MOA rifle if my typical shooting error is 0.3 MOA? If I prioritize it by eating raman and working overtime, damn right I do. But I do know my place in the shooting world.

    If you look at any endeavor, there is a nonlinear relationship between cost and benefit. Cars, cigars, stereos and hos - if you want the best, you're gonna pay for it. But what good is making a ton of money if you don't get some personal enjoyment out of all your hard work?
     

    rottenruger

    Sergeant of the Hide
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    Minuteman
    May 31, 2020
    287
    123
    I guess the reason I started this thread is because I don't want to keep upgrading. I want to buy something that will work for me for years to come. I'm confident that my current P4Xi 4-16x56 is all that I "need" for the ranges I shoot. I'm also confident that I can use that scope to the extent of it's ability in the field and on the range. But instead of getting the same scope [they're a great value] for my next rifle, I plan to move up to something better because I want a more rugged more usable sighting tool.
    The question is, if I'm already spending money, then how far should I go? What will I be satisfied with 5 years from now?
    It's a hard question I know, and only one that I can answer. I do like reading other's opinions though. Just in case I can gain some valuable perspective.

    The only VALUABLE perspective I can give you is that it's a hell of a lot easier to spend a fortune on rifles, optics, reloading etc than you'd ever imagine!
    Do your homework up front, get what you need, avoid the rest.


    Ps: Let me know if I can sell you this, this and that, I've got PLENTY more than I need!!! Wish it were all the kind of gear I want NOW !!!

    I started out with only 22L. Figured ALL my guns were going to be one caliber, for savings on ammo etc. A nice target pistol, a nice little 10/22, a nice little 22 semiauto pistol, thousands of rounds of cheap ammo, how could you go wrong

    Now I've got the range except for the Boys Tank Gun, and can't afford than nor have a place to shoot it.

    But I need to go to a gun show to lose all my beginning mistakes, so I can afford to make some more.

    Good luck!
     

    FreedomLoader

    Private
    Minuteman
    May 22, 2014
    1
    1
    I am 68. Been shooting for awhile. Have a couple of S&Bs and a variety of mid priced scopes. Bought one that I paid $1,750 for and it blows everything else away....a Minox. German optics company that made minaturs spy cameras in WWI. They had some scopes made in China, $200 junk. Some made in USA, $500 durable but not the brightest. They have 2 lines, 30mm and 36mm tubes, made in GERMANY. That is the key to their best scopes, $2,000 to $2,500. Lifetime warranty means lifetime to Minox. Unlike Bushnell that decides what the lifetime of a product is.
     
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    Huskydriver

    Not here for a long time but here for a good time
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    Apr 17, 2018
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    I guess the reason I started this thread is because I don't want to keep upgrading. I want to buy something that will work for me for years to come. I'm confident that my current P4Xi 4-16x56 is all that I "need" for the ranges I shoot. I'm also confident that I can use that scope to the extent of it's ability in the field and on the range. But instead of getting the same scope [they're a great value] for my next rifle, I plan to move up to something better because I want a more rugged more usable sighting tool.
    The question is, if I'm already spending money, then how far should I go? What will I be satisfied with 5 years from now?
    It's a hard question I know, and only one that I can answer. I do like reading other's opinions though. Just in case I can gain some valuable perspective.

    Then yes if I were you I would be looking hard at a used ZCO or SB.


    Can someone please explain to me why it is that there's always one individual who seems to be compelled to respond to a legitimate question with a sarcastic, rude and usually unintelligent response? Is it that the question is insulting to one's great wisdom that the mere thought of the question is beneath their intelligence level and just frustrates them to no end? Or is it that there's a need to show dominance and superiority? Regardless, why can't they just not respond, turn the page and go on to another thread? An insulting response is a sure sign of one's low intelligence level. Not everyone is a professional shooter and, those that are not, ask questions to learn and educate themselves. But time and time again, it turns out the ones with demeaning and insulting responses are typically amateurs themselves, trying to impress others. Just my thoughts.

    Uhhh wut? Do you know what forum your on?
     
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    littlepod

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  • Oct 16, 2012
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    I had gotten behind quite a few expensive scopes and I was happy with the scope I had. Comparing clarity and resolution looking at holes in paper at 100/200y I couldn't see enough difference between a zco, atacr, and my Ares ETR or Tract Toric. Also spent a good amount of time behind the Razor AMG.

    Then we got to go out to do a 4 day training in Alaska out to 1000y. There were two days that the mirage was horrible. Most scopes could barely resolve the target. Some could see the target but the truing line with be totally washed out. The Kahles, S&B exos and the ZCO were the only ones that were able to see crisp through the mirage. If you were in a shitty situation like that, that caliber of scope might actually be the difference between a hit or a miss.

    I came home wanting to get the next tier of scope but ultimately didn't. I don't get to go out and shoot that far very often and my life doesn't depend on it. When I shoot enough and that next tier scope is the reason why I'm not making the podium or not in a match then I might consider getting one. For now I'll spend my time and $ just shooting more. Every year I wait, the optics get better and hopefully I'll get better as well.

    I'm happy at that 1800$ price range for now.
     
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    secm

    Private
    Minuteman
    Jun 4, 2018
    80
    18
    I want to start a conversation about why someone would want to pay $3500+ for optics like Tangent Theta or ZCO over $1500-$2000 options, and under what circumstances one feels justified in doing so.

    After peering through enough glass, it becomes evident what you're paying for when you spend a bit more. The difference between a $500 scope and a $1500 may even be evident to an untrained bystander who doesn't know what they're looking for.
    But how much are you really gaining by moving from that mid tier price range to the high end game? Is the ZCO more durable than a NXS? Does it have better glass than a Razor? Do the Tangent Theta's track better and 'click' that much nicer than a BTR?

    My question for those that own higher end optics is, why did you choose what you did over other proven solid options that come in at half the price?
    In the end, is A ZCO or S&B PMII really worth two NXS's?

    EDIT:
    Update: Anyone seeking to read about the topic of this thread should start at post #38 and proceed from there, and it get's better on the second page. Warning: Almost all posts before #38, you will have to wade through trolls who are warning about how this topic will go to crap, which is ironic and self fulfilling because they are the ones that are posting off topic.
    Cheers

    Sounds like a reasoable question to me. Questions can be the best teacher!
     

    Scott Seigmund

    Private
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Sep 20, 2008
    94
    227
    VA
    It's important in this sport to get your priorities straight early on. Don't skimp on optics, mounts, and support systems.

    I tend to go with products that have some history and a proven track record. There are some very interesting new scopes in the market recently, but in my humble opinion they don't move the bar in any significant way compared the S-B 5-25. That was the scope that finally allowed us to realize the potential of heavy sniper rifles like the AW/AX 338 Lapua Magnums. I'm also a big fan of the Nighforce BEAST 5-25, and I have two of the very earliest samples. Those scopes have lived a very hard life and while cosmetically they show that usage, functionally and optically they are still perfect. The NF 7-35 ATACR is probably the most capable rifle scope currently available and can focus down to 11 yards. A stunning optic at a very fair price.

    Scott
     

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    steve123

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    Mar 16, 2008
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    none of your business
    The solution is simple! I think the question is, should I make the leap, or should I try to be satisfied with the ho hum. You wouldn't be here asking if you weren't "trying" .

    Now as to the solution, SELL that stuff you don't use, care fore, or are attached to, and apply to top tier stuff!

    This has been my montra for most of my adult life, and not having abundant $, the above was and is still my solution. I have some nice stuff that turns my crank when I use it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It can take awhile to stepping stone your way up but you'll get there. One of the tricks is buying used, trying it out, and reselling if it doesn't work out. Heck I've made $ sometimes when I resold stuff!

    Life is too short to settle....
     

    deersniper

    What would BurtGummer do?
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  • Feb 22, 2007
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    If a house is just a place for going to sleep at night does it matter my neighbors house is 30,000 SQ ft compared to my humble 2800 SQ ft house lol? Y'all are silly....you guys act like a central planning committee should allocate resources or something so that resources are not wasted.....



    View attachment 7385464
    priorities. .

    Could have had some land and a house half that size.
     

    Krob95

    Elite Sand Master Race
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  • Sep 7, 2019
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    I am that rich BUT I am not rich enough to buy cheap equipment. :p
    I don’t care how passionate you are about shooting. If you are going into debt or skimping on essentials to buy an optic, a rifle or whatever, then you’re crazy IMHO
    Why yes, I am skimping on essentials, but have you seen my sick ass ZCO 😂
     

    Littleluk

    Supporter
    Supporter
    Minuteman
    Jun 4, 2020
    7
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    Let me share the thoughts of someone who knows almost nothing about the subject in detail but quite a bit about the motivation. I certainly can't afford top tier and have been spending money on budget stuff as I get back into this sport. But I have some insight on how it works in the fishing world.

    I was once told that accuracy boiled down to two things. The shooter and the weapon. The worse a shooter was, the more he needed a better weapon. (if you can hold MOA at 200 yards and have a 2 MOA weapon... you can shoot about a 3 MOA group) If the shooter was a 2 MOA shooter ("half" as good) and had a 1 MOA weapon he could shoot the same 3 MOA group. The winner of course, is the shooter who hold sub MOA and shoots a sub MOA weapon for a MOA group in the X ring. Wisdom gained from a salty USMC double distinguished Staff Sergeant when I was a Corporal. The best tools lead to the best job. Nobody ever wishes they had shot a smaller group (excluding the sandbaggers out there) or scored a few less points in a contest. No-one has ever squeezed a trigger with an intent to kill and been happy with an unharmed or wounded target. Diminishing returns on equipment is a real thing but at the end of the day you remember and regret misses. They turn into next time resolutions. Did you just miss the wind change at the 800 yard mark on your 1000 yard target because you did not see the grass stop blowing. We work all our lives to make ourselves better in our skills and thought processes. Buying a better tool, even if you have to budget for it, means that you will always be a bit better for having that tool and knowing it. 98% of the performance is a 98. It is damn good but it is not 100. If you are not your 100% best and only can muster a 98% on your own.. then with the inferior tool you are now at 96.

    I know with fishing that there is nothing worse than loosing when you could have fixed it the day or night before. Bad knots, weak line, dull hooks etc.. can all equal loosing that one fish that matters. Spend 1000.00 on travel, 1000.00 on entry fees and god knows how much on fuel etc. and not getting a check because you did not put on new line at 40.00 a spool hurts. Yeah it is a hobby, as is shooting, and it is not what pays the mortgage or puts food on the table but damn it if I am going to do it, I damn sure care how well I do it.

    And even worse.. after thinking about this and typing it out... WTH did I buy a 1200.00 rifle, 1000.00 scope and also just order a rimfire scope etc.. Damn cheap shit.....