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Night Vision Photonis PD-Pro-B review

"Plastic" will bend and flex if impacted, dropped, or whatever. It doesn't perminently deform. Metal is more rigid and if pushed too far with just break or crack. Pmag vs USGI(like them both).
For MILSPEC housings like a polymer PVS-31 the housing won't bend or flex with the impacts I think you're talking about since the housing must be able to withstand pressure at 20 meters underwater. Any flexing would render the housing non-waterproof. When I say "flexing" I'm not talking about barely measurable "give" at the point of impact, I'm talking about housing flex. This was an issue with military PVS-14s and still is. The polymer housings flex a bit too much under pressure, which is why we have our more rugged Vyper line of PVS-14s. Our housing is also sold to third party NOD makers, so you'll see our design in a variety of commercial market NODS. We have tested some other well known NODS at actual underwater depths and have found some polymer NODS that did flex and thus lost their watertight seal. Most of these are Chinese' housings. Our tests show that the greatest threat to polymers is chipping, crazing and stress cracking at attachment points and fasteners. That data point has been matched by military long-term use. The issue with metal frames is not breaking or cracking, it's more corrosion and metal to metal wear. In both cases, by the time MILSPEC NODs get to that point the device is probably 10 or 15 years old and needs to be replaced anyway.
 
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@French1966
Thanks for pointing out the little difference in weight. We used the specs from Photonis. Interestingly enough I had an older IG post showing one on a scale and I missed the slight difference between the two. I have corrected our product description and kept the stated weight and made a note that we weighed them in at 15.9 ounces. I did it this way to avoid misinterpretation.


I would like to point something out then I’ll stop beating my lonely dead horse, but first let me just say I don’t think you meant to belittle my concerns/remarks in any way, but my next comment is going to be centered around the use of the word “little” in this case.

15.9oz -25% comes out to roughly what the advertised weight was: 12oz.
So it depends on how you word things. 1/4 of somethings total weight is not such a little difference. This is not even accounting for the aluminum version which is heavier yet (equating to a roughly 30% addition over the originally listed weight)

I’m guessing the person commenting here is in some way affiliated with Photonis, so I’ll refer to him as the Subject Matter Expert in this case. The SME has stated there was a mistake in their listed Vs actual specifications, which was subsequently copied by every vendor that I’ve seen. Conveniently the 25% error in listed weight happened to fall on the side which favors the marketability of the product. If (huge if) this was purposely done then that would turn me off to a company completely, as I don’t take false advertising lightly. Benefit of doubt given however.

The size and weight of this system are what make it attractive. **Most people wouldn’t pay $11K for it otherwise, especially when you consider Filmless offerings in a plethora of other housings of your choice.
Apart from looks, size alone isn’t really all that relevant. Yeah it’s cool that it’s small, but I’ve not found the size of a RNVG, DTNVS, PVS31, etc to ever be an issue in an operational sense. Weight on the other hand is one of the most important factors, period. It’s a large part of the reason why many modern/popular housings exist. Weight is a reason why popular aftermarket lenses exist, and why people have developed different battery housings for pvs14s, lightweight version of BNVD, I can go on… but you likely get my point.

So lets say a company advertises its product to be 25% superior in any regard, and then it turns out that it was incorrect information after many people have made a purchase. Is that not a considerable issue? On a Amazon product you got for $25 probably not, but a night vision bino system which competes in a market driven by weight/lightweight materials and costing as much as a nice used vehicle, well….. it’s kinda not a “small” mishap.

Not a bash post, mistakes happen. It looks like an awesome product and I can’t wait to check it out.

**Most people: I understand and respect the other attributes and intricacies that this product brings to market. “Most” buyers I encounter spending this much are very simple in their selection process however: Filmless, high specs, no spots, Gucci housing, done.
 
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LarryJStack (ljstack) is the CEO of Photonis in the USA.
I hope he doesn’t mind me calling him a subject matter expert then 😆

For what it’s worth, I think a CEO coming to this dark corner of the internet speaks volumes. If he didn’t care what people thought about his company’s products then he wouldn’t be here.
 
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I brought it up with them the first month of my distributorship, that there was an error in pamphlets they printed thousands of. they told me they weren’t going to reprint them but would fix the online stats. They’ve known about their marketing “flaws” for lack of better terminology. the truth is Photonis only makes tubes man (atleast in the nvg space). And they only care about the bottom $$$ line, not me; you or any of their customers. The new tech in this thread is actually from other companies just using their tubes. I got to play with a early prototype of the “fusion handheld binos” They rebrand stuff as their own. The Pd pro line is from nvls . The vyper binos are actually katana’s that Nocturn industries built for them with a couple design (looks-changes ) features. That was why the guy that took my solicitation from under me (now the VP) was promoted , because he came up with a way to sell echos at a higher markup. Wasn’t allowed to say that in the past, now I just DGAF.

They made the original 5 distributors buy 3 devices to sign up. I spent 65k to become a distributor.

Then 1 year later they were signing everyone and anyone for one Bino set.
Why? Because they couldn’t sell them , I was the only distributor to sell the first year. Not my words… that’s the words of the now VP.


Also, anyone remember the announcements about the Ukraine/nato tube deal and how photonis wouldn’t have tubes for years.. I fed y’all that crap because I was told it was true. guess who has tubes again… lol.

Imho it was just a marketing hype thing to sell the new product (Vyper binos ) , and their sitting inventory. and they actually sent me a memo that they were out of tubes and wouldn’t have them until their 100million dollar 3 years of production line exclusivity for NATO was up. That they wouldn’t have any more echos for atleast that time period. This was less then 12 months ago. shortly before we parted ways….

They also hired me and my brother to do marketing / videos for them.

Never went anywhere, even after I spent 10k on a camera to bring next level content to the “home team.”

Instead they dragged their feet until I popped, sent a assholish text with my distaste in the mismanagement and was subsequently “terminated”.

Oh not to mention me flying to Brazil to attempt to pioneer the market there for photonis . I have the exclusive representative Letter. I keep all communications logged. Out of my pocket this trip came, of course. I came back once I got wind of the DHS thing.

Fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice with creative wording, shame on you. Fool me three times , undercut me from a serious government bid that I secured for those I called “the home team”… well shit… there’s really a point where people’s behavior becomes disgusting and intolerable.. I’ve learned not to let degenerates sour my mood any longer.



Sincerely ,
Felipe Bastos
EliteUAS

1669793342296.gif
 
I brought it up with them the first month of my distributorship, that there was an error in pamphlets they printed thousands of. they told me they weren’t going to reprint them but would fix the online stats. They’ve known about their marketing “flaws” for lack of better terminology. the truth is Photonis only makes tubes man (atleast in the nvg space). And they only care about the bottom $$$ line, not me; you or any of their customers. The new tech in this thread is actually from other companies just using their tubes. I got to play with a early prototype of the “fusion handheld binos” They rebrand stuff as their own. The Pd pro line is from nvls . The vyper binos are actually katana’s that Nocturn industries built for them with a couple design (looks-changes ) features. That was why the guy that took my solicitation from under me (now the VP) was promoted , because he came up with a way to sell echos at a higher markup. Wasn’t allowed to say that in the past, now I just DGAF.

They made the original 5 distributors buy 3 devices to sign up. I spent 65k to become a distributor.

Then 1 year later they were signing everyone and anyone for one Bino set.
Why? Because they couldn’t sell them , I was the only distributor to sell the first year. Not my words… that’s the words of the now VP.


Also, anyone remember the announcements about the Ukraine/nato tube deal and how photonis wouldn’t have tubes for years.. I fed y’all that crap because I was told it was true. guess who has tubes again… lol.

Imho it was just a marketing hype thing to sell the new product (Vyper binos ) , and their sitting inventory. and they actually sent me a memo that they were out of tubes and wouldn’t have them until their 100million dollar 3 years of production line exclusivity for NATO was up. That they wouldn’t have any more echos for atleast that time period. This was less then 12 months ago. shortly before we parted ways….

They also hired me and my brother to do marketing / videos for them.

Never went anywhere, even after I spent 10k on a camera to bring next level content to the “home team.”

Instead they dragged their feet until I popped, sent a assholish text with my distaste in the mismanagement and was subsequently “terminated”.

Oh not to mention me flying to Brazil to attempt to pioneer the market there for photonis . I have the exclusive representative Letter. I keep all communications logged. Out of my pocket this trip came, of course. I came back once I got wind of the DHS thing.

Fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice with creative wording, shame on you. Fool me three times , undercut me from a serious government bid that I secured for those I called “the home team”… well shit… there’s really a point where people’s behavior becomes disgusting and intolerable.. I’ve learned not to let degenerates sour my mood any longer.



Sincerely ,
Felipe Bastos
EliteUAS
Sounds like good’ol capitalism.

Pretty sure L3 and Elbit ain’t philanthropic enterprises…
 
I brought it up with them the first month of my distributorship, that there was an error in pamphlets they printed thousands of. they told me they weren’t going to reprint them but would fix the online stats. They’ve known about their marketing “flaws” for lack of better terminology. the truth is Photonis only makes tubes man (atleast in the nvg space). And they only care about the bottom $$$ line, not me; you or any of their customers. The new tech in this thread is actually from other companies just using their tubes. I got to play with a early prototype of the “fusion handheld binos” They rebrand stuff as their own. The Pd pro line is from nvls . The vyper binos are actually katana’s that Nocturn industries built for them with a couple design (looks-changes ) features. That was why the guy that took my solicitation from under me (now the VP) was promoted , because he came up with a way to sell echos at a higher markup. Wasn’t allowed to say that in the past, now I just DGAF.

They made the original 5 distributors buy 3 devices to sign up. I spent 65k to become a distributor.

Then 1 year later they were signing everyone and anyone for one Bino set.
Why? Because they couldn’t sell them , I was the only distributor to sell the first year. Not my words… that’s the words of the now VP.


Also, anyone remember the announcements about the Ukraine/nato tube deal and how photonis wouldn’t have tubes for years.. I fed y’all that crap because I was told it was true. guess who has tubes again… lol.

Imho it was just a marketing hype thing to sell the new product (Vyper binos ) , and their sitting inventory. and they actually sent me a memo that they were out of tubes and wouldn’t have them until their 100million dollar 3 years of production line exclusivity for NATO was up. That they wouldn’t have any more echos for atleast that time period. This was less then 12 months ago. shortly before we parted ways….

They also hired me and my brother to do marketing / videos for them.

Never went anywhere, even after I spent 10k on a camera to bring next level content to the “home team.”

Instead they dragged their feet until I popped, sent a assholish text with my distaste in the mismanagement and was subsequently “terminated”.

Oh not to mention me flying to Brazil to attempt to pioneer the market there for photonis . I have the exclusive representative Letter. I keep all communications logged. Out of my pocket this trip came, of course. I came back once I got wind of the DHS thing.

Fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice with creative wording, shame on you. Fool me three times , undercut me from a serious government bid that I secured for those I called “the home team”… well shit… there’s really a point where people’s behavior becomes disgusting and intolerable.. I’ve learned not to let degenerates sour my mood any longer.



Sincerely ,
Felipe Bastos
EliteUAS
Photonis reprinted all brochures and all data sheets and distributed these to all of our distributors in 2021. The website was also corrected back in 2021. It appears that the older version of the website was used when the vendor revamped our site. Photonis tubes production is currently maxed out due to the conflict in Ukraine - which means that all NATO countries with Photonis contracts are executing their contract options for tubes and/or NODS with Photonis tubes. Thus tubes are in extremely short supply (short supply means all tubes received in the US will go into NODS and not be sold as individual tubes), and this will continue until at least 2024-2025. All tube types will be affected except for the Ultimate tubes which are not fully productionized yet (fully productionized means mass production). Once they are they will be available to our distributors - it is a game changing tube and I'm sure one of our distributors will design a set of NODS around them. On the comments from a prior distributor, all we can point out is that this company is no longer a distributor for Photonis Defense, and this same company was banned from Sniper's Hide a while back, and we're happy that they're back. It's always good to have at least one voice in the back. With that said, Photonis stands behind it's products so if anyone out there has a pair that they purchased thinking they were 12 ounces and are disappointed that they weigh slightly over 15 ounces, then please contact our Night Vision department directly and I'll make sure you're taken care of. You can find the contact info on our website.
 
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Sounds like good’ol capitalism.

Pretty sure L3 and Elbit ain’t philanthropic enterprises…
Photonis reprinted all brochures and all data sheets at great expense back in 2021. The website was also corrected back in 2021. It appears that an older instance of the website was used when our vendor revamped our site. All of our distributors know that tube production is currently maxed out due to the conflict in Ukraine - "due to the conflict" means that all NATO countries with Photonis contracts are executing their contract options for tubes and/or NODS with Photonis tubes. Thus tubes are in extremely short supply and this will continue until at least 2024-2025. This applies to all companies that make tubes, so if any of you are thinking about NODS, then this is a good time to get them no matter what set of NODS you want to get. This shortage has me now scouting the US to determine where a manufacturing site can be located. If we build a plant in the US then we're going to need savvy night vision operators and technicians that might be interested in working within the industry. I'll keep you all posted on how that goes. We're on a tight timeline to make a decision regarding a new plant. Photonis and its distributors stand behind our products so if anyone out there has a pair that they purchased thinking they were 12 ounces and are disappointed that they weigh slightly over 15 ounces (edit: for our magnesium binos), then please contact our Night Vision department directly and lets discuss. You can find the contact info on our website.
 
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I would like to point something out then I’ll stop beating my lonely dead horse, but first let me just say I don’t think you meant to belittle my concerns/remarks in any way, but my next comment is going to be centered around the use of the word “little” in this case.

15.9oz -25% comes out to roughly what the advertised weight was: 12oz.
So it depends on how you word things. 1/4 of somethings total weight is not such a little difference. This is not even accounting for the aluminum version which is heavier yet (equating to a roughly 30% addition over the originally listed weight)

I’m guessing the person commenting here is in some way affiliated with Photonis, so I’ll refer to him as the Subject Matter Expert in this case. The SME has stated there was a mistake in their listed Vs actual specifications, which was subsequently copied by every vendor that I’ve seen. Conveniently the 25% error in listed weight happened to fall on the side which favors the marketability of the product. If (huge if) this was purposely done then that would turn me off to a company completely, as I don’t take false advertising lightly. Benefit of doubt given however.

The size and weight of this system are what make it attractive. **Most people wouldn’t pay $11K for it otherwise, especially when you consider Filmless offerings in a plethora of other housings of your choice.
Apart from looks, size alone isn’t really all that relevant. Yeah it’s cool that it’s small, but I’ve not found the size of a RNVG, DTNVS, PVS31, etc to ever be an issue in an operational sense. Weight on the other hand is one of the most important factors, period. It’s a large part of the reason why many modern/popular housings exist. Weight is a reason why popular aftermarket lenses exist, and why people have developed different battery housings for pvs14s, lightweight version of BNVD, I can go on… but you likely get my point.

So lets say a company advertises its product to be 25% superior in any regard, and then it turns out that it was incorrect information after many people have made a purchase. Is that not a considerable issue? On a Amazon product you got for $25 probably not, but a night vision bino system which competes in a market driven by weight/lightweight materials and costing as much as a nice used vehicle, well….. it’s kinda not a “small” mishap.

Not a bash post, mistakes happen. It looks like an awesome product and I can’t wait to check it out.

**Most people: I understand and respect the other attributes and intricacies that this product brings to market. “Most” buyers I encounter spending this much are very simple in their selection process however: Filmless, high specs, no spots, Gucci housing, done.
Photonis and its distributors stand behind our products so if anyone out there has a pair that they purchased thinking they were 12 ounces and are disappointed that they weigh slightly over 15 ounces (edit: for our magnesium version of the bino), then please contact our Night Vision department directly and lets discuss. You can find the contact info on our website.
 
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Photonis sells all of their type tubes in the US market - we no longer make the INTENS tube, that was phased out years ago. The highest spec Photonis tubes are our 18mm "Ultimate" tube which are very thin and are pared with a CMOS to produce true digital night vision with better performance than analog tubes by themselves. They have just finished testing in the US. They have exceptionally high FOM, high gain, plus all of the other features of Photonis tubes (highest contrast, lowest halo, fastest auto-gating, very wide dynamic range, and high light resolution). They are, in fact, the best tubes on the planet, however they're not designed to fit into standard housings because they're so thin - in other words they are designed for digital night vision and no one has made a housing for them yet to be used as a straight analog system.

Even these tubes are offered in the US market, however, they are specialized tubes and you have to know about them in order to get one. Even if you know about them we have to approve the purchase, as they are not advertised on our website, nor are they carried by distributors. They are made very specifically, for now, for specialized usage for specialized platforms, and someday they will find their way into the mass commercial market.

We just completed a strategic night vision seminar where we invited all of our distributors and a slew of high ranking civilians to discuss night vision advancements and where we're going into the future - one of the products showcased was the digital night vision camera developed for the special warfare community. The completed unit is about the same size as a standard 18mm image intensifier tube and the performance is nothing short of spectacular even under overcast starlight conditions. So digital night vision has finally arrived, however the price point isn't where it needs to be quite yet.

I see on our website that the weight of PD-PRO-16B lists the weight as less than 490 grams and less than 12 ounces. Obviously one of those in incorrect. The correct weight is less than 490 grams or a tad under 17.2 ounces with battery. That information will be corrected and thanks for pointing out the error. The magnesium version of PD-PRO-16B is 15.9 ounces (with battery).

All distributors have the latest marketing materials and we double checked those and all of those are correct. If you have any questions that our distributors can't answer then please reach out directly via our website.
I imagine this is the nano-wire photocathode with a gradient bandgap that was patented a few years ago?

Regarding availability you planning to release it as a digital system? If not, as it's a glass out tube are you planning or developing glass out bino housings for the US market?

Finally any idea on when they are going to be avaible to the civilian market?
 
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I imagine this is the nano-wire photocathode with a gradient bandgap that was patented a few years ago?

Regarding availability you planning to release it as a digital system? If not, as it's a glass out tube are you planning or developing glass out bino housings for the US market?

Finally any idea on when they are going to be avaible to the civilian market?
The answer to question one is no, however it is patented. The answer to Q2 is yes and yes; and for Q3 the answer is yes, we have a target time, however we’ll need to consider actual and potential civilian demand.
 
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The answer to question one is no, however it is patented. The answer to Q2 is yes and yes and for Q3 is yes we have a target time, however we’ll need to consider actual and potential civilian demand.
Good to hear that it's coming it out. I'll be in line for one when it comes out. I've been waiting for a glass out system for a long time! It'll also be a contest between digital ultimate tubes and the EBAPS systems that are coming out 2-3 years also. Should be an interesting comparison. Finally some substantial changes in night vision tech.

I guess it's time to go look through the patents. Could be one of the new mcp materials/architectures, but I imagine going glass out alone and removing the FO inverter should be enough to get the finer pitch Photonis mcp's up to 100 lp.
 
If you mean the 18mm Ultimate tube, there have not been any housings designed for them (yet). We are working with the military in that regard as the Ultimate tube can be used in its analog version, or mated to a CMOS for digital night vision. We'll be at Shot so make sure you bring your GEN3 system and compare it yourself to a Photonis system. We will probably have the Ultimate Digital Night Vision camera on display. It has a 72 degree FOV.

June 2023 update: Thales has designed the first housing for the European military market using the Photonis 18mm 5G tube for their SPECOPS personnel. We should be getting the tubes here in the USA soon. They are awesome tubes. Expect XD-5, XR5 and ECHO tubes to be phased out over the next couple of years with 4G and 5G becoming our standard moving forward. Unfortunately, the tubes are not getting cheaper.
 
Are these coming to the US as ICMOS tubes or analog tubes? If analog will they fit in existing housings? Also what is the availability timeline and rough pricing?
 
I have to say, I was very (VERY) impressed with my PD-Pro16B’s. The form factor and build quality are second to none — better than L3 PVS-31A’s by a long shot. You could fit them into your pocket in cargo pants.

And the PACKAGING(!!!) Where L3 gives you a $20 soft Multicam pouch, Photonis puts their Night Princess in a sweet, non-Chinesium fitted Pelican with an excellent extended G24-type mount, and all accessories, documentation, etc. It’s a really nice, well-thought-out factory kit.

The 4G Intens tubes are very solid performers. In my AO, they can be on the dark side in light-deprived environments compared to L3 WPs, but… I absolutely LOVE that you don’t have to look away when a vehicle with their highbeams comes heading your way. I LOVE that there are no light trails burned into your NODs for 10 minutes after you expose them to intense light sources. I LOVE that the resolution doesn’t degrade in highlight environments.

In a mixed lighting or urban environment, I think I’d actually *choose* the 16B’s over a set of 31A’s if I could have only one.

And did I mention the SIZE of the damn things?!

IMG_4177.jpeg


Yeah… that’s my hand (and no, I’m not Andre the Giant).

Packaging:
IMG_4180.jpeg
 
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Are these coming to the US as ICMOS tubes or analog tubes? If analog will they fit in existing housings? Also what is the availability timeline and rough pricing?
The 5G Ultimate tube is very unique. For the Thales system I mentioned it's a glass-on-glass system, meaning it has no twister fiber and the Thales NVG FOV is 47.5 degrees. No twister means less distortion in the image. In the US we'll probably get both versions - a twister version and one without a twister. Both are designed to be used in analog NVGs, except that the housing for the glass-on-glass is special and only the glass-on-glass 5G will fit in it. That means we'll need to design a new Photonis housing for glass-on-glass 5G systems. The twister version of the 5G should be able to fit in most any standard 18mm housing, except that it'll only be available in our own Vyper housing for a few years. We'll have 50 degree optics available for the Vyper in a few months, as well as 50 degree optics for the PD-PRO. So for anyone with a PD PRO system they may want to upgrade to 50 degree optics when they come in. The 5G (and 4G for that matter) can also be fitted to a CMOS. When used in that configuration it has no twister. For CMOS configurations the tube is adapted to the specific CMOS required by the customer and still outperforms all solid state sensors, even those that claim to be "night vision" capable. I should have some 5G tubes for our internal testing in Lancaster PA next month. As far as pricing, we still haven't nailed that down, but they won't be cheap, more than the current 4G's. Minimum FOM will be around 2800 or higher for the 5G and if you like the ECHO or 4G, you'll love the 5G.
 
The INTENS replacement is the 4G tube. The current line of Photonis tubes for the commercial market is on our website at www.photonisdefense.com. Basically, ECHO tubes are commercial line tubes with MILSPEC performance that don't meet the specifications for our 4G tubes for one reason or another. It could be spots in one of the critical zones, or any of the other parameters that define our 4G line. You won't go wrong with an ECHO tube and a quick search of the internet will showcase performance. ECHO tubes are available now. Our 4G tubes are MILSPEC that meet the requirements of the US Army and our own specifications, they are also available now. Our 18mm Ultimate "5G" tube is a very specialized tube with a minimum FOM of 2800 with a target of 3000. The Ultimate tube is a thin tube which we designed for the special operations community specifically to be mated to a CMOS sensor for digital night vision. I'll attach a photo (an older photo as it shows the INTENS tube). In this photo you will see the 18mm 5G thin tube, a 16mm tube, an 18mm 4G hybrid which is used in our PD-PRO-Q, and an industry standard INTENS 18mm tube. As an update the 5G thin tube will be made without a twister and with a twister. The tube without a twister is made to be coupled to a CMOS and/or used in a glass-on-glass analog system and only Thales has a system that currently is designed for glass-on-glass. The tube with a twister is designed to be used in standard analog systems. When purchasing tubes from Photonis Defense ask for XD-4, XR5, ECHO (with a target FOM), or 4G (with a target FOM). 5G tubes are not available for sale yet. Our PD-PROs come with 16mm 4G tubes, so you cannot ask for an ECHO or less, and Vyper systems come with 18mm ECHO or 4G tubes. All are White Phosphor. All are true filmless. True filmless means just that, no film. GEN3 filmless tubes actually still have a film. Both Vyper and PD-PROs will have 50 degree FOV optics soon.
 
I’ve always considered the echoes to be way too dark, especially compared to high FOM Intens+ Tubes from back in the day.

The thing that’s really annoyed me, is a complete lack of the ability to get decent Photonis tubes in the US. (the fact that I was able to get 2800 FOM Intens tubes years ago, and nothing like that in recent years, has made me give up on photonis.
 
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I don’t take advantage of old dudes on fixed incomes.

Have another Ensure, geezer.
Horta, I will give you a deal that appeals to your charitable nature.

I'll give you $2,000 for them.

You keep $500 for yourself and can send him $1,500 worth of Ensure. :LOL:

Everyone wins !!! :LOL:
 
I’ve always considered the echoes to be way too dark, especially compared to high FOM Intens+ Tubes from back in the day.

The thing that’s really annoyed me, is a complete lack of the ability to get decent Photonis tubes in the US. (the fact that I was able to get 2800 FOM Intens tubes years ago, and nothing like that in recent years, has made me give up on photonis.
If you’d like higher FOM tubes all you have to do is ask for them. All Photonis tube types are available in the US. If we have them in stock you can purchase them, either via a distributor or direct from Photonis Defense. It’s pretty much that simple. If we don’t have it in stock we’ll get it for you. If you’re in Maryland then drive on up to our Night Vision demo room in Lancaster, PA and bring your NVGs for a side by side comparison.
 
The 5G Ultimate tube is very unique. For the Thales system I mentioned it's a glass-on-glass system, meaning it has no twister fiber and the Thales NVG FOV is 47.5 degrees. No twister means less distortion in the image. In the US we'll probably get both versions - a twister version and one without a twister. Both are designed to be used in analog NVGs, except that the housing for the glass-on-glass is special and only the glass-on-glass 5G will fit in it. That means we'll need to design a new Photonis housing for glass-on-glass 5G systems. The twister version of the 5G should be able to fit in most any standard 18mm housing, except that it'll only be available in our own Vyper housing for a few years. We'll have 50 degree optics available for the Vyper in a few months, as well as 50 degree optics for the PD-PRO. So for anyone with a PD PRO system they may want to upgrade to 50 degree optics when they come in. The 5G (and 4G for that matter) can also be fitted to a CMOS. When used in that configuration it has no twister. For CMOS configurations the tube is adapted to the specific CMOS required by the customer and still outperforms all solid state sensors, even those that claim to be "night vision" capable. I should have some 5G tubes for our internal testing in Lancaster PA next month. As far as pricing, we still haven't nailed that down, but they won't be cheap, more than the current 4G's. Minimum FOM will be around 2800 or higher for the 5G and if you like the ECHO or 4G, you'll love the 5G.
How will these tubes play in a clip on system?
 
The 5G Ultimate tube is very unique. For the Thales system I mentioned it's a glass-on-glass system, meaning it has no twister fiber and the Thales NVG FOV is 47.5 degrees. No twister means less distortion in the image. In the US we'll probably get both versions - a twister version and one without a twister. Both are designed to be used in analog NVGs, except that the housing for the glass-on-glass is special and only the glass-on-glass 5G will fit in it. That means we'll need to design a new Photonis housing for glass-on-glass 5G systems. The twister version of the 5G should be able to fit in most any standard 18mm housing, except that it'll only be available in our own Vyper housing for a few years. We'll have 50 degree optics available for the Vyper in a few months, as well as 50 degree optics for the PD-PRO. So for anyone with a PD PRO system they may want to upgrade to 50 degree optics when they come in. The 5G (and 4G for that matter) can also be fitted to a CMOS. When used in that configuration it has no twister. For CMOS configurations the tube is adapted to the specific CMOS required by the customer and still outperforms all solid state sensors, even those that claim to be "night vision" capable. I should have some 5G tubes for our internal testing in Lancaster PA next month. As far as pricing, we still haven't nailed that down, but they won't be cheap, more than the current 4G's. Minimum FOM will be around 2800 or higher for the 5G and if you like the ECHO or 4G, you'll love the 5G.
Thanks for the great info. Will the 5G tubes be operating in a similar spectral range or will it have extended spectral range beyond the current 4g+ tubes?
 
Very interesting developments. I have the Photonis PD Pro 16M and couldn't be happier.
Next time I an in PA, I need to stop by. I was asked to write a couple of article on night vision, so it is worth a visit.

ILya
 
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Is the resolution being pushed higher, or is spectral range sensitivity where the progress is being made?
 
Basically everything is pushed higher. This tube is less than half the size, lengthwise, of a standard 18mm. Quantum efficiency is better because of that. Look at the photo we posted of the 4 different types of tubes we make for Night Vision. Our tubes for Scientific research are even better, however not suited for tactical Night Vision. As an example the resolution on one of our scientific tubes is 100 lp/mm.
 
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Folks,

I just want to thank Larry Stack, CEO of Photonis Defense USA, for providing me with a tour of their PA facility and a general rundown of their equipment lineup.

They have a very large facility in Lancaster, PA, and a number of folks that work there diligently to produce their products, many of which most of us are completely unaware of (e.g. not just night vision equipment).

There were a number of impressive developments that were shared, and, frankly, some of them we had to believe they were so cool. (For example, they have complete tube assembly that appears to be somewhere in the 1/3-1/2in in height area, an NV tube coupled to a CCD [digital camera], 16mm tubes, 18mm tubes, 16mm to 18mm tube converters, housing systems milled out of blocks of aluminum or magnesium, etc. etc…)

We also spent time in their NV showroom, where it simulates a number of conditions, to including the rapid flashing of weapons fire / general simulated battlefield conditions.

Some of you probably have seen my posts in the past where I’ve explained my experiences with a Phontonis Intens based AB Night Vision Mob3B system from, probably, 5-6 years ago. The biggest thing that I miss from that system was that the center resolution was 81lp/mm, with a FOM of ~2600/2800 for the two tubes. It was a great system, and especially when you include the ability to mitigate high light situations faster than the human eye. Most importantly, the clarity of the center resolution of the system. (I‘m very sensitive to that for whatever reason.)

We actually spent some time comparing competing vendor’s NV technology, and it was very interesting to see how even in VERY [almost non-exisitant] lighting conditions the Photonis equipment did better with definition. My assumption is that the amount of scintillation in the GaAs tubes in near complete darkness impacts the ability to see definition in specific lighting conditions; that the Photonis tubes excel in conditions that would normally cause visual distortion, such as extreme high light and near complete darkness. (In near complete darkness if you use a small light sources, it seems the Phontonis tubes provide a dark image, but one with usable definition of objects - Which in todays demonstration were a bunch of what appeared to be 1951 USAF Resolution Test Charts at various intervals, as you could not seem them well with comparable technology of the SAME FOM and general specs; Phontonis has clearly created a tool that work exceedingly well in conditions where other vendor’s NV tubes exhibt trade offs in performance.)

Now, I DO have an RNVG with L3 40:1 90+lp/mm tubes (e.g. INSANELY expensive) to compare this with. However, while they are VERY good, they do not deal well with ANY sort of higher light conditions. Basically, they’re just too sensitive in some regards. The Photonis stuff holds its own very well, and it took a CRAZY amount of money to get an L3 system with the kind of clarity you see in a typical Echo/4G Photonis system, which would probably be about half the price currently.

Larry’s demonstration was impressive.

As some of you know, one of my chief issues has been attempting to get a hold of devices made using the Intens/Intens+/4G/4G+. Larry was quite frank about the market situation with the war in Ukraine and the general disposition of tubes as a result; Effectively, you should be able to get what you want, but it may take time to come in depending.

He also indicated that they had some updates coming out to their product line.

Again, I want to thank him for his and Photonis’ time today.

Larry is also a retired Navy Captain (e.g. Colonel for the other services). As such, thank you for your service Swabbie ;)
 
Folks,

I just want to thank Larry Stack, CEO of Photonis Defense USA, for providing me with a tour of their PA facility and a general rundown of their equipment lineup.

They have a very large facility in Lancaster, PA, and a number of folks that work there diligently to produce their products, many of which most of us are completely unaware of (e.g. not just night vision equipment).

There were a number of impressive developments that were shared, and, frankly, some of them we had to believe they were so cool. (For example, they have complete tube assembly that appears to be somewhere in the 1/3-1/2in in height area, an NV tube coupled to a CCD [digital camera], 16mm tubes, 18mm tubes, 16mm to 18mm tube converters, housing systems milled out of blocks of aluminum or magnesium, etc. etc…)

We also spent time in their NV showroom, where it simulates a number of conditions, to including the rapid flashing of weapons fire / general simulated battlefield conditions.

Some of you probably have seen my posts in the past where I’ve explained my experiences with a Phontonis Intens based AB Night Vision Mob3B system from, probably, 5-6 years ago. The biggest thing that I miss from that system was that the center resolution was 81lp/mm, with a FOM of ~2600/2800 for the two tubes. It was a great system, and especially when you include the ability to mitigate high light situations faster than the human eye. Most importantly, the clarity of the center resolution of the system. (I‘m very sensitive to that for whatever reason.)

We actually spent some time comparing competing vendor’s NV technology, and it was very interesting to see how even in VERY [almost non-exisitant] lighting conditions the Photonis equipment did better with definition. My assumption is that the amount of scintillation in the GaAs tubes in near complete darkness impacts the ability to see definition in specific lighting conditions; that the Photonis tubes excel in conditions that would normally cause visual distortion, such as extreme high light and near complete darkness. (In near complete darkness if you use a small light sources, it seems the Phontonis tubes provide a dark image, but one with usable definition of objects - Which in todays demonstration were a bunch of what appeared to be 1951 USAF Resolution Test Charts at various intervals, as you could not seem them well with comparable technology of the SAME FOM and general specs; Phontonis has clearly created a tool that work exceedingly well in conditions where other vendor’s NV tubes exhibt trade offs in performance.)

Now, I DO have an RNVG with L3 40:1 90+lp/mm tubes (e.g. INSANELY expensive) to compare this with. However, while they are VERY good, they do not deal well with ANY sort of higher light conditions. Basically, they’re just too sensitive in some regards. The Photonis stuff holds its own very well, and it took a CRAZY amount of money to get an L3 system with the kind of clarity you see in a typical Echo/4G Photonis system, which would probably be about half the price currently.

Larry’s demonstration was impressive.

As some of you know, one of my chief issues has been attempting to get a hold of devices made using the Intens/Intens+/4G/4G+. Larry was quite frank about the market situation with the war in Ukraine and the general disposition of tubes as a result; Effectively, you should be able to get what you want, but it may take time to come in depending.

He also indicated that they had some updates coming out to their product line.

Again, I want to thank him for his and Photonis’ time today.

Larry is also a retired Navy Captain (e.g. Colonel for the other services). As such, thank you for your service Swabbie ;)
Glad you enjoyed the dog and pony show! It was a pleasure hosting you!
 
Would you say the photonis tubes are more relative to L3 thin or filmed tubes? I'm just trying to judge their ability relative to what I know.
 
The problem with that comparison is that every tube has its own set of specifications, which are unique to each tube.

A really high performing filmed tube might be better in overall visual quality than a medium or low performing unfilmed tube… etc.

IMG_2553.jpeg



The picture above is of an “Intens” tube, now known as a 4G now.

(81lp/mm @ 34.5:1 SN)

Notice how there is no crazy halo affect and resolution is very good.

That’s Las Vegas in the middle of the night.

Unfortunately, I don’t have a good picture of an L3 system… But trust me when I tell you, they would be a lot more light blooming going on… they would also be streaking across the tube where it is impacted or momentarily burned by light sources.

Same tube no moonlight:

IMG_2461.jpeg


Same tube full moonlight:

IMG_2408.jpeg


Keep in mind that I am not gods gift to photography.

What I’m trying to show you is that with even a small amount of light the tubes still perform extremely well. A lot of people do a lot of comparisons using spec sheets, but the Intens/Intens+/4G/4G+ perform very well compared to any L3 tubes. The thing they excel at is in the field of visual quality.

The thing to consider is that there are different strengths between different types of tubes.

It literally took an $8000 L3 unfilmed to get the level of clarity I was getting out of that intens tube six years ago.

I would spend a lot less time, looking at spec sheets and a lot more time looking through tubes to find out which ones your eyes actually like.

To be fair, I never met a WP tube from photonis I didn’t like.
 
The problem with that comparison is that every tube has its own set of specifications, which are unique to each tube.

A really high performing filmed tube might be better in overall visual quality than a medium or low performing unfilmed tube… etc.

View attachment 8174186


The picture above is of an “Intens” tube, now known as a 4G now.

(81lp/mm @ 34.5:1 SN)

Notice how there is no crazy halo affect and resolution is very good.

That’s Las Vegas in the middle of the night.

Unfortunately, I don’t have a good picture of an L3 system… But trust me when I tell you, they would be a lot more light blooming going on… they would also be streaking across the tube where it is impacted or momentarily burned by light sources.

Same tube no moonlight:

View attachment 8174198

Same tube full moonlight:

View attachment 8174199

Keep in mind that I am not gods gift to photography.

What I’m trying to show you is that with even a small amount of light the tubes still perform extremely well. A lot of people do a lot of comparisons using spec sheets, but the Intens/Intens+/4G/4G+ perform very well compared to any L3 tubes. The thing they excel at is in the field of visual quality.

The thing to consider is that there are different strengths between different types of tubes.

It literally took an $8000 L3 unfilmed to get the level of clarity I was getting out of that intens tube six years ago.

I would spend a lot less time, looking at spec sheets and a lot more time looking through tubes to find out which ones your eyes actually like.

To be fair, I never met a WP tube from photonis I didn’t like.
Very cool images
 
I’ve got a bunch of video of that same Vegas environment that I manage to get through that tube and you can see the car driving. There’s no blooming of headlights or anything like that…. If I can figure out how to post that.
 
I live in the sticks in Louisiana, so my nights are pretty dark. I need to find one of these in my price range.
 
If the nights are really dark, you’re better off with something with an insanely low EBI if you’re talking about US tubes.

No tube is gonna work well in under a quarter moonlight unless you have an illuminator. (well, unless you have some massive objective lens that’s bringing in all the possible light it can get its hands on… 2124-lr, PVS-30, PVS-27, etc. etc)

What’s very interesting is that as things get really really dark, the photonis tubes seem to do somewhat well because of their generally low EBI. In other words, while they have the same problem every other tube does when there’s no available light, you don’t get a bunch of scintillation like you see on US GEN3 tubes.

That being said, there is a good difference between an echo tube and a 4G+ tube… the image on the echoes tends to be a little darker, whereas the image on the 4G+ tubes is fairly comparable to USG Gen III stuff…
 
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If the nights are really dark, you’re better off with something with an insanely low EBI if you’re talking about US tubes.

No tube is gonna work well in under a quarter moonlight unless you have an illuminator. (well, unless you have some massive objective lens that’s bringing in all the possible light it can get its hands on… 2124-lr, PVS-30, PVS-27, etc. etc)

What’s very interesting is that as things get really really dark, the photonic tubes seem to do some wet well because of their generally low EBI. In other words, while they have the same problem every other tube does when there’s no available light, you don’t get a bunch of scintillation like you see on US GEN3 tubes.

That being said, there is a good difference between an echo tube and a 4G+ tube… the image on the echoes tends to be a little darker, whereas the image on the 4G+ tubes is fairly comfortable to USG Gen III stuff…
That helps.