Pistol Caliber Carbine?

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: keithtb1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All our team training inside a home is done with the use of a handgun and flashlight attached. Now with respect to your training if you feel more comfortable, and you train with a rifle to do your CQB work, thats what works for you. But I can't believe you would say its easier to take a subject into custody with an AR over a pistol. Or check under a bed, Open a closet door etc. As far as moving through tight area's we don't move through a house with our arms extended, rather close to the chest with pistol facing forward which is now extended about 12 inches from our chest. Now if you can figure a way to keep your AR that tight I would definately like to learn that technique and pass it on to the rest of our guys. </div></div>

We do 99.99% of our training indoors or out with carbines and submachineguns. Generally the only one who goes in without a rifle is the breacher or possibly medic depending on the situation.

I am planning on being in Clearwater for Sniperweek next month. If you want to PM me, I will give you my cell number. I would be happy to throw the M4 in the truck and do a POI on CQB tactics with the M4 in an enclosed space. I may not change your mind, but more tools in the toolbox is never a bad thing.

Keep in mind I came up in a Marine Corps that issued 20" M16's. Those were what we learned to clear buildings with. An M4 is cake by comparison.

 

[keithtb1]

Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

And my response to some of your responses are

In regards to your rifle VS pistol, once again its a differance of opinion. But to make statements that its a failure to train correctly why most people can't hit a moving target in low light but will be able to do so with a rifle. Well failure to train is failure to train. Point shooting with a pistol in low light having night sights requires no manipulation. No turning on sights, no battery failures, no loading of ammunition into your rifle, (unless your saying you keep a loaded rifle next to your bed, or beside it!) And in regards to the Great Clint Smith's saying: "I WOULD" need a hand gun to get to my rifle because its going to be locked in my safe where I keep all my weapons except my duty pistol which is in a Quickly accessable lock box. Some of you may have the luxory of leaving rifles easily available but I have children and there friends in my home all the time, Not to mention its a crime to leave a weapon unsecured but thats a whole other argument.
As far as the use of gas, bangs, pole cameras, mirrors, I don't know where that came in to play, But we use all those items and more. My other area of what might be described as expertise, is the use of electronics in surveillance. I spent the better part of my career running a technical surveillance unit and helped design one of the better pole cameras on the market today made by ZISTOS Corp. The same units used in the World Trade center during 9-11. So beleive me we are on the cutting edge of technology and not STAGNANT in our training.
As far as FALLING BACK on what my team does with tactics I never even mention how a team would handle this only what I prefered. And if you read the original post it was about pistol calibers in a carbine, so way to stay on point. Also, lets say your going to go to your child and out of great fear your child is unable to move and you must carry him or her to get to safety, could you do so with a rifle? Could you boost them up or lower them out a window while still maintaining your weapon? All food for thought and probably not germain to the situation, but still food for thought. I would have preferred that you started off your post by stating this is another way of looking at the same situation and gave your "OPINION" as to what you thought was a better way to go. But to say something "STRUCK A NERVE" and caused you to blast someones post may show some underlying issues on your part. Feel free to pm me if you want to discuss this further as it really has taken away from the original post. Also everything here was said with the utmost respect and humility. Also, you made some valid arguable points.

 

[keithtb1]

Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

Lonewolf USMC. Sorry was typing the above when you posted up. If I can make it up there I will call to let you know. Competed for several years at Snipercraft and it was always a blast. Derrick Bartlett does a hell of a job and have trained with him when he was with Fort Lauderdale at West Palm's range. Will PM either way if time permits.

 

[Andrew Blubaugh]

Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

Keith,

I have no need to send you a PM. You contradicted your self more than once and it is becoming exhausting. Yes, we are straying off topic but it all relates.

You mentioned "Point Shooting". Point shooting is a by product of proper sighted shooting. You can not effectively point shoot with out having a solid grasp on the fundamentals of marksmanship. This is the point of using a long gun, that it will be easier for the average joe.

My point about your team tactics… You said in an earlier post, “All our team training inside a home is done with the use of a handgun and flashlight attached.” That is a statement I took the most issue with. Sure it is one way of doing things but if you are utilizing pole cams and mirrors it takes the majority of the effort out of clearing confined spaces and makes flowing through a structure easy. I only mentioned your team tactics because you brought it up. Don’t get so defensive if you are going to continue to paint yourself into a corner.

I am done commenting on your posts, you have proven to have a narrow view of the topic and unfortunately it will limit your abilities. You have to ask your self, why does 99% of the worlds SRT, HRT, SWAT, CT, SO all utilize a long gun when ever possible? Are they all wrong? Good luck with that answer.

 

[fillmore]

Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

I'm no expert, but out of all the guns I have I keep a 20ga 1100 next to my bed with 5 high brass 6's in it.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: coondog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm no expert, but out of all the guns I have I keep a 20ga 1100 next to my bed with 5 high brass 6's in it. </div></div>

God I don't even want to go down that path.

 

[alpha6164]

Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: coondog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm no expert, but out of all the guns I have I keep a 20ga 1100 next to my bed with 5 high brass 6's in it. </div></div>

God I don't even want to go down that path. </div></div>

You and me both

 

[marduk185]

Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

not sure what safest caliber or ammo is for indoor use but i know personally i see absolutely zero benefit to a rifle length pistol. id use a pistol for handiness or a rifle for terminal effect but never a loong clumsy stik that is only spitting pistol ammo. as for hiding in my own home....please.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

I did some comparison of the ballistics between the 20ga saboted slug and the 44Mag carbine. They came out in similar ballparks.

The 20ga has more options, with slugs, sabots, buck, and conventional shot loads more easily available.

Greg

 

[BillCominos]

Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

Gotta say that I love my Thompson M1 carbine in .45 acp with 50 round straight mags for a CQB weapon! Heck of a lot of fun to practice with too!! Gotta reload to be able to afford the ammo you will go through with the M1 as the fun factor is just that high!! Proper training with the tools you have trumps all gizmos and gadgets!

 

[jagged77]

Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

Get a big dog...
Actively deterring criminals is surely the best start? Here in the UK its almost unheard of nowadays to defend your property - you hurt a burgler he's likely to sue you and win... Plus firearms are all locked securely away and only a small minority of folks are lucky enough to have them for sporting purposes.
My German Shepherd (who is actually as soft as a brush even tho he's ex police) will bark the house down if anyone gets anywhere near the property line. I subscribe to the belief that criminals will generally tend to avoid houses with dogs unless there's something they really want. Sorry this is slightly off topic but have been reading the thread with interest and thought I'd chuck this in...

 

[Longshot38]

Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

Jagged I agree with having a K9 burglar alarm. This is why I keep a mastiff around. But a K9 does not replace a firearm. Like is preached around here you need the proper tool for the task at hand. And for getting rid of intruders in my home, a K9 is second rate.

As for the UK current firearm situation. It is sad state of affairs when criminals are given more rights then property owners. But this is where the UK stands. Luckily in most of the US we still have the rights to protect our property.

 

[jagged77]

Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

You are correct, a K9 is certainly the 2nd rate option but hopefully it might just be enough to sway things so the worst never happens. Nothing like being prepared for the worst though.

When I lived in the US I kept a 12g loaded with 3" mag buckshot in the bedroom - in hindsight probably not a good choice given the thin walls of the condo and the comments on some of the posts....

 

[eleaf]

Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jagged77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">in hindsight probably not a good choice given the thin walls of the condo and the comments on some of the posts....
</div></div>

From what I gather, NO round is a "good" choice for indoor use due to penetration issues. Perhaps those super frangible bullets designed for use in airplanes with the explicit goal of NOT penetrating through?

 

[black_ump]

Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vulcan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">H&K USC 45 would fit your bill. </div></div>


i second this..... get one you will love it, do the ump clone on it, ya lot of money but lots of fun

 

[Andrew Blubaugh]

Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did some comparison of the ballistics between the 20ga saboted slug and the 44Mag carbine. They came out in similar ballparks.

The 20ga has more options, with slugs, sabots, buck, and conventional shot loads more easily available.

Greg </div></div>

How about sharing the numbers with us? Type of ammo, muzzle velocity, penetration into ballistic gel with various barriers such as: light, and heavy clothing, basic construction materials etc... I'd love to see what you have because the last dozen ballistic seminars I attended the only shotgun slug worth a damn was the Hornady and to date they still won't market it directly at LE because of the over penetration. A large number of agencies don't allow shotgun slugs to be carried on duty, that should tell you something.

Go to http://www.hornadyle.com/_img/hornady_tap_report.pdf and check out the numbers on Hornady's ballistic testing. Notice the lack of numbers for their 00 Buck. They provide no info of barriers. A rep at a ballistic seminar told us none of the manufacuters willingly provide hard data on 00 Buck or shotgun slugs BECAUSE they are far from being truely desireable for defense use. From my hands on observations with 00 buck that it has a lack of penetration and the slug goes beyond over penetration. I derived this from actually observing dozens of rounds striking various barriers in relationship to ballistic gel.