Advanced Marksmanship POA/POI not the same ?

[Headgear]

My POI's are not always where the reticle is when the rifle goes off. I am new to long range, prone shooting but I love it and want to be better. I have been shooting for 3 or 4 months and have gotten better but I'm kind of stuck.

I just got a GAP 308 in an AI and got it all adjusted and I have a NF 8x32 NXS on it so my gear is good. I usually practice at 200 yards and my groups average 1.3". Sometimes I will shoot as good as 1/2", five shot groups but I'm inconsistent. I am wondering if the rifle is recoiling off of my shoulder differently sometimes.

When I shoot prone, I get the rifle set up on the target, get up and align myself, standing behind it then lay down being careful to stay as square as possible to the target line/rifle.
I like to get the reticle exactly on the target with very little or no pressure from my shoulder or cheek and when it is good, I press in and load the bipod and rest my cheek on the stock, check to make sure that my site picture is full with the reticle still on the target and then begin to press the trigger. I usually shoot three or four good tight shots and then get one that is and inch or so away.

When I dry fire even when aiming at something small way offin the distance the reticle never moves so I can't imagine that it is my trigger pull. The only thing that I can think that is throwing a couple of those SOB's is the rifle recoiling off of me differently meaning that I am doing something different each time. I just can't catch what it is. Again I'm green at this. Any ideas?

 

[RobertB]

Re: POA/POI not the same ?

Are you shooting match grade ammo?

 

[Chanonry]

Re: POA/POI not the same ?

Lots.

trouble is it isn't possible to narrow it down from the information you supplied.

IF it is always the last shot, the problem starts in your head.

 

[gugubica]

Re: POA/POI not the same ?

Dail you mag back to 8 and see if it makes a difference.

 

[Headgear]

Re: POA/POI not the same ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Are you shooting match grade ammo?
</div></div> I mostly shoot my hand loads but I have the same results with Fed. Gold Metal Match.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">trouble is it isn't possible to narrow it down from the information you supplied.
IF it is always the last shot, the problem starts in your head.
</div></div> No it is not always the last shot. It could be any one or two in a five shot string. Is there a way to give the correct or correct amount of info to get some Ideas? How can I help you to help me? I'll do whatever it takes.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Dail you mag back to 8 and see if it makes a difference.</div></div> I have had it all the way down but same result. When I bought the rifle it came with a fixed ten Super Sniper and same thing. I can shoot like crazy except for the times that I don't

I am still curious about the recoil because I have been reading so many posts about getting yourself/shoulders square behind the rifle. If I am not square, do you think that the rifle can recoil off to the side or up differently than when I am square and effect POI? My rifle usually jumps to the left. Or am I searching to cure my problem in the wrong place all together? Maybe something else is going wrong.

I'm afraid that setting up for a long range shot is going to be a lot like setting up for a golf shot...there are a million things that can go wrong but very few that can make it go right. But I love it and I am persistant!

Thanks

 

[sled_mack]

Re: POA/POI not the same ?

If you haven't already, join the online training. I'll be going through those lessons will work a lot of this out for you.

Somewhere in this forum is a thread on Avoiding Group Shooting, or some thing like that. Download the target on there. Changing the focus from shooting a group, to making each shot count on it's own, regardless of the rest of the shots you took that day, makes a difference.

 

[desertHK]

Re: POA/POI not the same ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sled</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you haven't already, join the online training. I'll be going through those lessons will work a lot of this out for you.

Somewhere in this forum is a thread on Avoiding Group Shooting, or some thing like that. Download the target on there. Changing the focus from shooting a group, to making each shot count on it's own, regardless of the rest of the shots you took that day, makes a difference. </div></div>

Agree. If you are new to long range shooting, the online training is a good thing to have. Out side of that, the only way to get better is to send many, many and many more rounds down range. Remember, each round sending down range has to have a purpose. Don't just blinding squeeze the trigger. When you go to the range, focus on one aspect of marksmanship and work on that. Eventually, it will come together. Shooting is a perishable skill. You have to practice regularly and frequently to retain that consistency. After all, consistency is what we are talking about.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: POA/POI not the same ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Headgear</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My POI's are not always where the reticle is when the rifle goes off. I am new to long range, prone shooting but I love it and want to be better. I have been shooting for 3 or 4 months and have gotten better but I'm kind of stuck.

I just got a GAP 308 in an AI and got it all adjusted and I have a NF 8x32 NXS on it so my gear is good. I usually practice at 200 yards and my groups average 1.3". Sometimes I will shoot as good as 1/2", five shot groups but I'm inconsistent. I am wondering if the rifle is recoiling off of my shoulder differently sometimes.

When I shoot prone, I get the rifle set up on the target, get up and align myself, standing behind it then lay down being careful to stay as square as possible to the target line/rifle.
I like to get the reticle exactly on the target with very little or no pressure from my shoulder or cheek and when it is good, I press in and load the bipod and rest my cheek on the stock, check to make sure that my site picture is full with the reticle still on the target and then begin to press the trigger. I usually shoot three or four good tight shots and then get one that is and inch or so away.

When I dry fire even when aiming at something small way offin the distance the reticle never moves so I can't imagine that it is my trigger pull. The only thing that I can think that is throwing a couple of those SOB's is the rifle recoiling off of me differently meaning that I am doing something different each time. I just can't catch what it is. Again I'm green at this. Any ideas?
</div></div>

You may want to get some basic marksmanship training. Although you probably think you understand the basics, not hitting what you're aiming at reveals that you don't know where the barrel is pointed; and, therefore, you may not know as much as you think you do. Thing is, since targets at relatively short distance can be hit intuitively, folks simply don't recognize they don't know the fundementals. They think when they miss at longer distances the error has something to do with long range shooting being somehow different than other shooting, when the reality is it's just more demanding of marksmanship perfection.

So, right now, I'd say you do not understand what's important to good shooting. You've already discovered having a relationship between the target and reticle, and a steady bipod rest does not assure a good result, and in fact, if you analyze it you will also see that the scope and bipod have actually distracted you and undermined good shooting.

I'm not going to give you a lesson here, but what's important to long range is reducing angular error. To do that you must have a relationship with the gun and ground which is consistent, for your entire string of fire. Building a steady position for the best results at LR is beyond what most folks are interested in, it's just too painful, mentally and physically, to be perfected for more than a few shots.

Nevertheless, there are two areas where concentration will help you get better results. First, recognize the importance for a consistent relationship between the eyeball and eyepiece, where the eye is centered to the eyepiece and anchored there though a stockweld, <span style="color: #FF0000">with the full weight of the head resting on the comb</span>. Second, follow through, maintaining consistent control of the rifle until recoil has subsided. For consistent control you will need to know something about the elements and factors of a steady position. They describe the relationship between shooter, gun, and ground.

One more thing, you must believe, that with perfection, you can send every bullet through the hole vacated by the first arriving bullet. If you don't believe that's possible, you will never get through the pain of practice to be all the shooter you can be. Entering long range and/or high power rifle competitions will inspire you, allowing you to both test and celebrate your skill. These competitions will sustain you with rewards for all of your hard fought practice.

 

[JeffinTX]

Re: POA/POI not the same ?

Once you get beyond the beginner levels of prone rifle shooting regarding gross errors in NPA, sight alignment, breathing, etc, then you can graduate to the more subtle details of how seemingly minor variables such as cheek pressure, right elbow position, etc between shots will be the cause of what others will call "flyers". Not to mention the changes in the wind and light on the target. Knowledge of these "details" is what seperates the 10 percent from the rest of the field. Welcome to precision rifle shooting, as in golf; easy to learn, but a long road to truly master.

 

[GOING FOR 2000]

Re: POA/POI not the same ?

Try this;

When you are in position have a friend insert one round at a time and close the bolt without you looking. you will not know if it is a loaded round or empty case. Video record your shooting, you should be able to see what the problem is immediatly.

It almost sounds like you might have developed a flinch or movement of some kind.

I did this and discovered a slight facial mussle movement at the moment I fired not much, but enough to move the POA thus changing the POI.

 

[squirrelsniper]

Re: POA/POI not the same ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Headgear</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I usually practice at 200 yards and my groups average 1.3". Sometimes I will shoot as good as 1/2", five shot groups but I'm inconsistent. I am wondering if the rifle is recoiling off of my shoulder differently sometimes.</div></div>

If those are actual group sizes in inches and not MOA (1.3 MOA @ 200 equals roughly 2.6"), then you're not flinching or making other drastic mistakes. To me it sounds like you may be trying to "muscle" the rifle perfectly onto the target. In other words you set up the rifle and get behind it as neutral as possible, but the crosshair may not be exactly where you want it, so you push it where you want it. This bit of stress you've just induced between shooter, rifle and rest then basically "unwinds" itself as the rifle begins to recoil, resulting in a slight POI change. With heavier recoiling rifles the effect is much more pronounced than with 308-class weapons.

As someone already mentioned, try dialing back on the magnification just a bit and see what happens. It's common for people to use a very high magnification and then basically fight the rifle to remove all the little twitches that become very apparent through high magnification optics. As long as you are in physical contact with the rifle, you'll never remove <span style="font-weight: bold">all</span> movement from the sight picture when using high magnifications, so just do the best you can and then go ahead and send it.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: POA/POI not the same ?

The previous poster is describing the need to adjust NPA. New shooters are typically distracted by both the scope and bipod; and, when building the position, these shooters attempt first to get a relationship with the reticle and target. To get the relationship, they will steer with the non-firing hand, or shoulder; and, thereafter, they will maintain the relationship with muscle. These shooters do not recognize muscle will preclude the stability of the ground from being transferred to the position. They do not know muscle tension will promote divergent shot to shot recoil.

From what I gathered in the OP's first post, it appears, the OP has had some exposure to the fundementals, but, does not fully comprehend them, or, perhaps, does not know how to properly manage the knowledge.

 

[Headgear]

Re: POA/POI not the same ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If those are actual group sizes in inches and not MOA (1.3 MOA @ 200 equals roughly 2.6"), then you're not flinching or making other drastic mistakes. To me it sounds like you may be trying to "muscle" the rifle perfectly onto the target. In other words you set up the rifle and get behind it as neutral as possible, but the crosshair may not be exactly where you want it, so you push it where you want it. This bit of stress you've just induced between shooter, rifle and rest then basically "unwinds" itself as the rifle begins to recoil, resulting in a slight POI change. With heavier recoiling rifles the effect is much more pronounced than with 308-class weapons.</div></div>

This souunds a lot like what I am doing. I have not had any type of training at all. Just hunting and general plinking/target shooting for fun and I can shoot pretty good. But now I would like to shoot better than pretty good. Yes that is inches. I use a calipers and measure all of the groups and divide by the number of them and I usually shoot right at 1.3" which is about 5/8 MOA +/- at 200. The problems that I am having are not too drastic and they don't happen every string of shots. I'll shoot a five shot group once in a while that is close to 1/4 MOA so I know I can do it, I just don't know exactly what to work on. I think I need to go and get some good hands on instruction. I'm in southeast Indiana and Thunder Valley is only about three hours from here. I hear that people are happy with the training that Tom puts on so I'm looking into that.

I do like to try what you guys are telling me also though. I'll dial the mag down and try that again. My brother recorded some shots I took last Sunday which I didn't know about. I can't wait to see them.

By the way, the title of this forum is advanced marksmanship. I am nothing like an advanced marksman, just don't know where else to ask these questions. If I am out of line posting such basic questions here, let me know.

Thanks

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: POA/POI not the same ?

How close are you to Louisville? I offer a basic marksmanship course which presents the USAMU's SDM curriculum. This sort of instruction will reveal everything there is to know about good shooting; and, with such knowledge, and practice, you can become the extraordinary shooter you want to be. To view my brochure, go to my profile and click my home page address.

 

[boom2336]

Re: POA/POI not the same ?

Just my 0.02. It also sounds like you could be focusing in on the wrong object. As a PMI when we have guys dancing around the black they are typically staring at the taget and not the front sight post.

When I got into optic shooting I has dancing around the black and had a Sniper watching me and he mentioned that alot of people that arent used to shooting High Mag optics tend to stare at the target and not the cross hairs thus resulting in my issue. Not to say that this isinfact what you are doing wrong but it was what I was doing wrong.

On Iron sights it is easy. Fuzzy rear sight apeture, clear front sight post, fuzzy target. That is what you want. With the glass it is so easy to think you are focusing in on the cross hairs but actually be focusing in on the paper.

Hope this helps.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: POA/POI not the same ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Headgear</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I can shoot like crazy except for the times that I don't

</div></div>

If it were easy everyone would be doing it.
To shoot to the best of one's abilities, each and every time takes A LOT more practice than even the above average precision shooter can squeeze in.

Stop driving yourself nuts shooting groups.

 

[Patriot Prepper]

Re: POA/POI not the same ?

You are not doing bad for only 3 months of shooting.

Practice is the key for everyone. Even great champion shooters need practice and shoot thousands of rounds every year.

I read some of the response posts (not all of them) and they seem to cover most of the aspects of precision shooting. I thought it might be your breathing or flinching. Sometimes your body reacts if you are shooting a lot of rounds and you can flinch. Also you may be heating up your barrel and that can affect the shot. Are you aware of any changes in wind?

It can also be psychological when you shoot a flyer. Shooting is a mind game, especially competition.

Are you concentrating on all your shots with the same intensity or do you get a little slack on a few shots?

It might help to get a front rest - shooting off a bipod is a discipline in itself. If you can shoot well with a decent front rest, then you know just need more practice with the bipod.

Take out as many variables in the equation as possible. Go through all the basics of marksmanship. Work on each one. If you learn everything you need to do, and you practice, in time you will achieve your goals.

Don't compare yourself to bench rest shooters or other shooters. Compete with yourself. Set goals each time you shoot.

Some times you need to slow down your shooting. The time between shots should be consistent. Some guns cool down at different rates. (But you do have a great rifle and scope.)

Lot of things can affect your groups, from ammo, temperature, wind to flinching, and breathing. As you keep shooting your will learn to recognize what caused a lost shot. But I think you are on the right track. Keep practicing.

 

[sst04]

Re: POA/POI not the same ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Headgear</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My POI's are not always where the reticle is when the rifle goes off. I am new to long range, prone shooting but I love it and want to be better. I have been shooting for 3 or 4 months and have gotten better but I'm kind of stuck.

I just got a GAP 308 in an AI and got it all adjusted and I have a NF 8x32 NXS on it so my gear is good. I usually practice at 200 yards and my groups average 1.3". Sometimes I will shoot as good as 1/2", five shot groups but I'm inconsistent. I am wondering if the rifle is recoiling off of my shoulder differently sometimes.

When I shoot prone, I get the rifle set up on the target, get up and align myself, standing behind it then lay down being careful to stay as square as possible to the target line/rifle.
<span style="color: #FFFF66">I like to get the reticle exactly on the target with very little or no pressure from my shoulder or cheek and when it is good, I press in and load the bipod and rest my cheek on the stock,</span> check to make sure that my site picture is full with the reticle still on the target and then begin to press the trigger. I usually shoot three or four good tight shots and then get one that is and inch or so away.

When I dry fire even when aiming at something small way offin the distance the reticle never moves so I can't imagine that it is my trigger pull. The only thing that I can think that is throwing a couple of those SOB's is the rifle recoiling off of me differently meaning that I am doing something different each time. I just can't catch what it is. Again I'm green at this. Any ideas?
</div></div>

Since I am fairly new to this also and maybe some of the expierenced guys could chime in, but should you be loading the bipod before you get exactly on target. If you are getting on target and then pressing foward, is it possible that you could be relaxing as you are squeezing the trigger.

 

[Headgear]

Re: POA/POI not the same ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are getting on target and then pressing foward, is it possible that you could be relaxing as you are squeezing the trigger.</div></div>

I pretty much always check for the natural point of aim now on every shot. That has gone into my routine now since learning more after having posted the original question. I have also noticed in doing so that I have a tendency to tense up a lot of muscles before shooting do to trying too hard. I now take way more time to make sure that my whole body is relaxed and watch my breathing. This has helped a lot especially in confidence. I feel like this routine that is developing is starting to really jell into solid fundamentals that I can count on.

Another thing that I have been paying special attention to is trying to reproduce an exact cheek weld and pressure pulling the rifle back into my shoulder with the bottom three fingers of my firing hand. A little slight pressure pulling back helps steady the reticle some.

I still am looking forward to getting some good instruction. After the holidays are over, that's going to happen. Maybe several times as time and budget will allow. I am excited! I am down in Florida with family. My BIL took me over to Hurlburt Air Force Base and I shot a five shot group @ 200 that a dime will cover. I gotta get some training. It's addicting!

Merry Christmas to you all! (That is: Y'all down here, You's guys up home)