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POF, Hogan or F&D Defense?

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Bad Dad

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Feb 26, 2012
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Pretty new around here and am looking for anyone with experience on the posted platforms. My wife is getting me a rifle for my 50th B-day and these are the ones I've narrowed it down too. Not a big fan of DI, more of an Op-rod kinda guy, Socom, Mini-14, AR-180. I like the engineering in the F&D, always liked POF and understand that there's a Past (bitter?) between them and Hogan? So, what all have ya got for me? Thanks, and really appreciate any info. and help.
 
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POF. Have had one since 2009 and runs like a champ.
 
Another vote for POF. The one I have now is my second and if I had it to do over again, even with all the different platforms out there, I would still choose the POF and eventually I will pick up a P416.
 
One more POF vote here. I love my P-308 20" which I've had the longest now, but every POF rifle I have laid hands on and put through its paces was just a phenomenal piece of work. Utterly reliable both suppressed and unsuppressed, sub-MOA accurate if using proper ammo and the shooter does his/her part, and from a company that stands behind their products.

As for the Hogan BS...run a search here of the Hide for more info. There is a whole lot about it that gets spun in a variety of directions, but don't let their difficulties detract from the high quality of the POF design, manufacture and CS. Personally, I wouldn't go Hogan unless I just wanted a receiver to build on, but to each their own.

As for the F&D...I have not seen one first-hand nor have I shot one, but you might want to have a read through some of the threads here on the Hide about them. Also, if timing is a concern (like you want it ASAFP)...I'd skip the F&D as I understand the wait times are considerable unless you can find one of the few production models for sale on the used market or get someones current spot in line. There are POF rifles/carbines available now (as are there Hogans), depending on what specifically you are looking for.
 
F&D Defense's owner is an ass-hole but he makes a nice gun. POF is just as nice and easier to get. I don't think F&D's gun would do anything better so I would get which ever you can get your hands on first. I have never owned or have any experience with Hogan's product.
 
I received my POF P308 NP3 16.5" on Monday. The thing is a work of art. I put some Troy folding sights on it while I wait for my ACOG. Couldnt be happier
 
POF great guns run flawless and our accurate!! Owned by a great guy and I HIGHLY recommend them!!
 
You will definitely have a wait on the FD308. I ordered one around October 1st (well before Sandyhook) and still no word on when it will be complete. I also acquired a P308 in December, but chose to sell it a month later and never shot it. If I did not have the deposit on the FD308, most likely would have kept the P308. I am looking forward to someday getting the FD308 and posting some pics from the range.
 
I had major malfunctions and problems with my POF 6.5 creedmoor that they just could not fix. They swapped it out of a 308 upper and now it runs flawlessly.
 
Gotta give another vote for the POF. Got a 16.5", runs great and shoots better than I do.
 
Wasn't Hogan building the POF platforms at least to begin with? I have been to the Hogan shop here in Phx and i thought one of my guys told me that.....
 
POF hands down. Hall (F&D Defense) is a narcissistic retard who thinks his customers should be grateful if he even graces them with an answer to a question. Just read some of his prior posts and it's evidently clear. And if you really want a "side charger" I would recommend the JP LRP07 above all the choice given.
 
+1 on the JP lrp-07 I have one and it is the Finest rifle I have ever seen or shot.
 
Thanks Kill, but i am not looking for the answer, just making a comment more or less. I really don't care if they were or not.

No offense intended by my comment, my apologies if you took it as such. I only said what I did because nearly everytime the topic of Hogan/POF is brought up it turns into a bunch of he said she said kinda thing as it's been hashed and rehashed more than once.
 
POF hands down. Hall (F&D Defense) is a narcissistic retard who thinks his customers should be grateful if he even graces them with an answer to a question. Just read some of his prior posts and it's evidently clear. And if you really want a "side charger" I would recommend the JP LRP07 above all the choice given.

I have provided more in depth answers to technical questions about this AR-10 line of rifles than anyone i have seen.
There is no degree, even miniscule, of narcissism in any of my responses to any legitimate questions.

With that said, I will defend my products and integrity when attacked. If I am pushed around, I will push back.
I understand that you, as a customer, are not used to this from a business or company owner.
And I understand why most businesses are reluctant to get involved in the petty BS arguments that pop up on various forums.
However, I have put thousands of hours into developing these products without a paycheck to speak of, dumped everything I owned into it plus some, and have neglected many hundreds of hours with my family to be able to provide these products.

It's an ongoing process, and life isn't always perfect out of the gate.
Delivering rifles when customers want them is challenging and often impossible, especially considering the quickly changing pace of F&D and the shifting industry due to political environment.

The bottom line is that if I am answering every question from customers then I am not building rifles.
I don't yet have a team of employees who can go do all the manufacturing for me.

So when someone asks me a question for which the answer can be found on my website, then go look at the website.
If you want your anus tickled and your hand held, then F&D is NOT your company.

I have made no implications to anyone that they would be receiving anything contrary to this policy when ordering an F&D rifle.
If you're a doofus, I'm going to tell you you're a doofus. That doesn't mean we cant still be friends, and that doesn't mean I'm going to give you bad info.
If an F&D rifle isn't right for you, then I will tell you to go buy something else. I wont sit there and try to convince you to buy my product.
You go look at the info on my website, you go look at competitors products, you do the comparison... keep me out of it until absolutely necessary.

Look, if you guys are buying high-end rifles, then you need to be mature enough to respect my work and the way in which I do my work.
More importantly you need to respect the rifle, regardless of whether it comes from F&D or any competitors.
If you are not respecting the rifle, and the amount of work that goes into it, then you do NOT need to be an F&D customer.
Instead, go deal with a manufacturer who will hold your hand and tell you only what you want to hear, there are plenty who will do it.
But there are only few who will be real with you.
 
Corby,

As a paying customer I feel a need to reply to this. Sort of more of a brief history, or you can look at it as customer feedback.

After looking at a number of rifles it is clear that the FD is one of the best looking rifles out there and the design sounds solid on paper. Looking at your rifle pictures is absolute gun porn. Before purchasing I emailed and spoke with you on the phones a couple of times. You where always quick to respond and seemed extremely competent. Based on this I placed a deposit with you about October 1st. This was well before Sandyhook, so at that point the parts and material for my gun, one would expect, should have been ordered. You stated at the time the lead time would be 3-4 months. It is now closing in on April 1st.

I have emailed you a couple times asking for an update and what number my rifle would be on the FD308 series. Those emails have not been responded to. I respect you and understand how busy you must be. That being said I am not a jerk and have always treated you with respect and I am not a "tire kicker" wasting your time. I'm a paying customer. So I sit here and wonder why you have time to send these long responses on the boards, but you don't have time to answer my emails? That's just some feedback, which is not meant as an insult, but just an observation. I would imagine others who have made deposits wonder the same thing at times. In any business paying customers are important and their feedback is important to the ultimate success and growth of a business. Focusing on their satisfaction and assuring they tell two friends, who tell two friends, who tell two friends etc. about their positive experience has never hurt any business. I imagine the converse is true as well. Just my two cents.
 
I am still patting myself on the back for buying the FD308. The POF is not on a par with it. When I saw the carrier ,my first thought was that Engr. Hall was a Motie.
 
No offense intended by my comment, my apologies if you took it as such. I only said what I did because nearly everytime the topic of Hogan/POF is brought up it turns into a bunch of he said she said kinda thing as it's been hashed and rehashed more than once.

We are good Kill. I am new here so have not had the pleasure in reading all posts yet.

Our company http://www.armroworks.com knows both Hogan ad POF. We have had both owners to or facility in Chandler and POF has displayed a few times at MIL trade shows we have attended. We went on the Hogan tour last year when we placed an order for two Hogans to give away on the West Coast Seal Reunion.

A few of our guys own 1or 2 of each, but they are out of my range from a "budget minded" approach to kinetic energy devices.
 
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Corby,

As a paying customer I feel a need to reply to this. Sort of more of a brief history, or you can look at it as customer feedback.

After looking at a number of rifles it is clear that the FD is one of the best looking rifles out there and the design sounds solid on paper. Looking at your rifle pictures is absolute gun porn. Before purchasing I emailed and spoke with you on the phones a couple of times. You where always quick to respond and seemed extremely competent. Based on this I placed a deposit with you about October 1st. This was well before Sandyhook, so at that point the parts and material for my gun, one would expect, should have been ordered. You stated at the time the lead time would be 3-4 months. It is now closing in on April 1st.

I have emailed you a couple times asking for an update and what number my rifle would be on the FD308 series. Those emails have not been responded to. I respect you and understand how busy you must be. That being said I am not a jerk and have always treated you with respect and I am not a "tire kicker" wasting your time. I'm a paying customer. So I sit here and wonder why you have time to send these long responses on the boards, but you don't have time to answer my emails? That's just some feedback, which is not meant as an insult, but just an observation. I would imagine others who have made deposits wonder the same thing at times. In any business paying customers are important and their feedback is important to the ultimate success and growth of a business. Focusing on their satisfaction and assuring they tell two friends, who tell two friends, who tell two friends etc. about their positive experience has never hurt any business. I imagine the converse is true as well. Just my two cents.

There is a reason these emails requesting a delivery date are not being responded to.
I sent out a mass email to all customers stating the status of the current build, also said I would not be responding to any inquiries as there are too many factors at play to be able to provide any kind of accurate lead time.
Especially since each customer has a substantially different lead time. The math required to calculate such a thing would be mind-boggling, much less extremely error-prone.

I do not start ordering parts once an order is placed, that is a horrible manufacturing practice.
Parts are ordered when they need to be ordered. Many parts were ordered LONG before you placed an order/deposit, some parts are ordered much after.
You can be assured that your deposit is being wisely utilized on building your order.

Even though I have been at this for about 6 years, F&D is still considered "new" simply because we didn't have millions of dollars to just jump into the venture in order to get things moving as quickly as other companies have.
And since F&D is essentially a one man shop, and still considered a "new" company, I am expected by the industry to provide a higher level of detailed information and support to customers.

And that is how I started F&D, by answering every single question that came up, and answering it with more than just a basic response.
This can be verified with numerous potential, past, and current customers; where many can attest that I have spent FAR more time with them that what they can get out of any competitors.

Once production got going, and now demands approx 12-14hrs per day, 7 days a week of my time, this level of customer service became a huge burden and only then did I decide to only answer questions about technicalities of the rifle.
First, I completely prohibited myself from trying to "sell" the rifle; instead I now direct people to the website and let them do their own research and comparisons. I will not go out of my way to sell a rifle, especially to someone who does not know what they want out of the rifle. As stated before I do my absolute best from getting into delivery dates, and always qualify my responses with "if everything goes according to the current plan, which changes daily".

As of today I do not answer the phone at all, and I do not respond to non-technical or non-warranty emails.
I do not return phone messages unless the customer specifically asks for a response on a technical question on one of my rifles.
I VERY RARELY get online to respond to these issues/complaints; and when I do, I make damn sure all my machines are running first and foremost.

As of last month I have started moving forward with a new investor/business partner and we are making huge changes to the company very quickly.
We have not been able to breathe enough to even think about hiring any permanent employees for customer service and machine-work.
If I am left to deal with manufacturing and design myself, and that is where I am best.

At the end of the day, I want the product to sell itself, and that's the way it should be.
If I make a good product and provide sufficient technical info upfront, then the customer should never need my assistance.
Did I buy a Toyota Tacoma because they have good customer service? Hell no.
I bought it because I knew I would rarely if ever have to take it in for repair.
That is the direction I intend to go with these rifles. And I already know it wont be a perfect venture.
Ideal F&D business model: you look; you like; you compare; you buy; you receive; and then I don't talk to you again until you need a replacement part or ready to buy another.

As stated several times before:
I'm not here to make buddies, not here to build relationships, not here to build a perfectly loyal customer-base, not here to build a vast firearms empire, not here to get rich.
I'm only here to build the absolute best functioning, best featured, and most stylish autoloading rifle that ever did and ever will touch the market.
And Ive still got a few things up my sleeve (in prototyping stages) to accomplish those objectives, it's a working progress.
 
There is a reason these emails requesting a delivery date are not being responded to.
I sent out a mass email to all customers stating the status of the current build, also said I would not be responding to any inquiries as there are too many factors at play to be able to provide any kind of accurate lead time.
Especially since each customer has a substantially different lead time. The math required to calculate such a thing would be mind-boggling, much less extremely error-prone.

I do not start ordering parts once an order is placed, that is a horrible manufacturing practice.
Parts are ordered when they need to be ordered. Many parts were ordered LONG before you placed an order/deposit, some parts are ordered much after.
You can be assured that your deposit is being wisely utilized on building your order.

Even though I have been at this for about 6 years, F&D is still considered "new" simply because we didn't have millions of dollars to just jump into the venture in order to get things moving as quickly as other companies have.
And since F&D is essentially a one man shop, and still considered a "new" company, I am expected by the industry to provide a higher level of detailed information and support to customers.

And that is how I started F&D, by answering every single question that came up, and answering it with more than just a basic response.
This can be verified with numerous potential, past, and current customers; where many can attest that I have spent FAR more time with them that what they can get out of any competitors.

Once production got going, and now demands approx 12-14hrs per day, 7 days a week of my time, this level of customer service became a huge burden and only then did I decide to only answer questions about technicalities of the rifle.
First, I completely prohibited myself from trying to "sell" the rifle; instead I now direct people to the website and let them do their own research and comparisons. I will not go out of my way to sell a rifle, especially to someone who does not know what they want out of the rifle. As stated before I do my absolute best from getting into delivery dates, and always qualify my responses with "if everything goes according to the current plan, which changes daily".

As of today I do not answer the phone at all, and I do not respond to non-technical or non-warranty emails.
I do not return phone messages unless the customer specifically asks for a response on a technical question on one of my rifles.
I VERY RARELY get online to respond to these issues/complaints; and when I do, I make damn sure all my machines are running first and foremost.

As of last month I have started moving forward with a new investor/business partner and we are making huge changes to the company very quickly.
We have not been able to breathe enough to even think about hiring any permanent employees for customer service and machine-work.
If I am left to deal with manufacturing and design myself, and that is where I am best.

At the end of the day, I want the product to sell itself, and that's the way it should be.
If I make a good product and provide sufficient technical info upfront, then the customer should never need my assistance.
Did I buy a Toyota Tacoma because they have good customer service? Hell no.
I bought it because I knew I would rarely if ever have to take it in for repair.
That is the direction I intend to go with these rifles. And I already know it wont be a perfect venture.
Ideal F&D business model: you look; you like; you compare; you buy; you receive; and then I don't talk to you again until you need a replacement part or ready to buy another.

As stated several times before:
I'm not here to make buddies, not here to build relationships, not here to build a perfectly loyal customer-base, not here to build a vast firearms empire, not here to get rich.
I'm only here to build the absolute best functioning, best featured, and most stylish autoloading rifle that ever did and ever will touch the market.
And Ive still got a few things up my sleeve (in prototyping stages) to accomplish those objectives, it's a working progress.

Wow, if I was going to respond to my comments the email would have said something like:

Yes I know I told you the lead time would be 3 - 4 months, but things happen beyond my control. I'm sorry for the delay and expect your rifle to ship in about 60 days (or what ever the best estimate is). It's taking longer than expected, but rest assured you will have one of the best quality rifles money can buy. Thanks again for your order.

That would have taken much less time to type and perhaps a little less harsh. (More time to work on rifle parts as well) I clearly would never make it as a rifle manufacturer....
 
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Corby Hall you should be ashamed of yourself, BUY AMERICAN and support AMERICA.
 
Hope I didn't start anything here with either the F&D production or POF, Hogan deal. I've read about the length of time for F&D and am willing to to wait for what I want. Heck im waiting going on 14 months for a holster! Also checked out the law suit stuff, messy. I changed the post title to include a PWS Mk214 as a possible. Thanks again for all your help.
 
Hope I didn't start anything here with either the F&D production or POF, Hogan deal. I've read about the length of time for F&D and am willing to to wait for what I want. Heck im waiting going on 14 months for a holster! Also checked out the law suit stuff, messy. I changed the post title to include a PWS Mk214 as a possible. Thanks again for all your help.

Not all all. That's one of the great things about the forum, learning from each others experience!
 
Wow, if I was going to respond to my comments the email would have said something like:

Yes I know I told you the lead time would be 3 - 4 months, but things happen beyond my control. I'm sorry for the delay and expect your rifle to ship in about 60 days (or what ever the best estimate is). It's taking longer than expected, but rest assured you will have one of the best quality rifles money can buy. Thanks again for your order.

That would have taken much less time to type and perhaps a little less harsh. (More time to work on rifle parts as well) I clearly would never make it as a rifle manufacturer....

Nah....its amazing how Corby is one of the few with this attitude.
 
POF. I won one at the Sniper's Hide Cup in 2010 and haven't cleaned it yet. It still runs flawlessly. It's also my second ever truly-3/4 MOA gas gun, which is surprising from a piston rifle.
 
I have provided more in depth answers to technical questions about this AR-10 line of rifles than anyone i have seen.
There is no degree, even miniscule, of narcissism in any of my responses to any legitimate questions.

With that said, I will defend my products and integrity when attacked. If I am pushed around, I will push back.
I understand that you, as a customer, are not used to this from a business or company owner.
And I understand why most businesses are reluctant to get involved in the petty BS arguments that pop up on various forums.
However, I have put thousands of hours into developing these products without a paycheck to speak of, dumped everything I owned into it plus some, and have neglected many hundreds of hours with my family to be able to provide these products.

It's an ongoing process, and life isn't always perfect out of the gate.
Delivering rifles when customers want them is challenging and often impossible, especially considering the quickly changing pace of F&D and the shifting industry due to political environment.

The bottom line is that if I am answering every question from customers then I am not building rifles.
I don't yet have a team of employees who can go do all the manufacturing for me.

So when someone asks me a question for which the answer can be found on my website, then go look at the website.
If you want your anus tickled and your hand held, then F&D is NOT your company.

I have made no implications to anyone that they would be receiving anything contrary to this policy when ordering an F&D rifle.
If you're a doofus, I'm going to tell you you're a doofus. That doesn't mean we cant still be friends, and that doesn't mean I'm going to give you bad info.
If an F&D rifle isn't right for you, then I will tell you to go buy something else. I wont sit there and try to convince you to buy my product.
You go look at the info on my website, you go look at competitors products, you do the comparison... keep me out of it until absolutely necessary.

Look, if you guys are buying high-end rifles, then you need to be mature enough to respect my work and the way in which I do my work.
More importantly you need to respect the rifle, regardless of whether it comes from F&D or any competitors.
If you are not respecting the rifle, and the amount of work that goes into it, then you do NOT need to be an F&D customer.
Instead, go deal with a manufacturer who will hold your hand and tell you only what you want to hear, there are plenty who will do it.
But there are only few who will be real with you.

I am quickly becoming a fan of FD, this is exactly the kind of guy I want putting an innovative product together. This response is what would make me a customer, not the other way around.
 
I have read through this thread completely some responses more than once. I am very new to the AR platform game but have shot bolt guns for years. So here is my 2 cents. I am lucky enough to own three of AR's mentioned POF, Hogan & F&D Defense. The POF & Hogan are my knock around play with rifles and they shoot fine. I would even use them in competition. But my go to rifle is the F&D and not just because it makes woman cream in their panties when the just look at it, it is because it is pure precision with outstanding quality.

And for those that find Corby course well a better description would be brutally honest with no sugar coating! The guy is straight up truthful with no punches pulled. I have been in his shop and the guy works his ass off and knows his shit. He is not some guy pointing his finger at a bunch of worker bees mass producing a product, he does it all himself. And one point that has not been brought up is Corby talks the talk and walks the walk, he can backup what he says. And if you have not been burned yet by a smooth talking gunsmith/rifle builder/suppressor manufacturer or any of those guys out there that will screw you out of your money well the day will come. At F&D you get what you see.

The short of it POF, Hogan and F&D will all go bang when you pull the trigger its what happens down range that matters!! I would also like to add I'm not defending Corby or F&D only stating the facts as I see them. Today I would still buy any of the 3 AR platform rifles I own, Bad Dad your choice are all good. At the end of the day its all about what you want. I want quality and service.
 
Lots of love for the POF and I'm in the same boat. I had a 20" POF that either loved or hated certain ammo - it consistently shot 3/4 moa with heavy stuff but hated the lighter bullets. I remember cleaning it for the first time and being amazed at how clean it was. Gotta love those pistons for that. Sold it cause I'm an LMT fan and discovered frog lube.

Also, I buy American whenever the quality is equal to or greater than the other options out there. POF has that gun down. Couple that with their great cs and you really can't lose.
 
If you take the time you will find an AMERICAN PRODUCT out there that is equal or better than any NON-AMMERICAN product so that is NO-EXCUSE. I work for FORD MOTOR CO. with that said I will never buy a Foriegn Car ever, even if I won the Lottery. This is exactly why this country is in trouble. GREED GREED GREED, people wake up and start supporting our OWN. If you WORK for AMERICA, then BUY AMERICAN unless you have NO other CHOICE. That is another reason I am so PROUD of my rifle. JP Enterprise built by AMERICANS for AMERICANS.
 
One Source Tactical has POF USA P308 both black and NP3 models right now for $2,750.00.
 
Cabela's had several POF's in stock last week in DFW. I picked up a 16.5" 415, the thing is awesome!
 
I have provided more in depth answers to technical questions about this AR-10 line of rifles than anyone i have seen.
There is no degree, even miniscule, of narcissism in any of my responses to any legitimate questions.

With that said, I will defend my products and integrity when attacked. If I am pushed around, I will push back.
I understand that you, as a customer, are not used to this from a business or company owner.
And I understand why most businesses are reluctant to get involved in the petty BS arguments that pop up on various forums.
However, I have put thousands of hours into developing these products without a paycheck to speak of, dumped everything I owned into it plus some, and have neglected many hundreds of hours with my family to be able to provide these products.

It's an ongoing process, and life isn't always perfect out of the gate.
Delivering rifles when customers want them is challenging and often impossible, especially considering the quickly changing pace of F&D and the shifting industry due to political environment.

The bottom line is that if I am answering every question from customers then I am not building rifles.
I don't yet have a team of employees who can go do all the manufacturing for me.

So when someone asks me a question for which the answer can be found on my website, then go look at the website.
If you want your anus tickled and your hand held, then F&D is NOT your company.

I have made no implications to anyone that they would be receiving anything contrary to this policy when ordering an F&D rifle.
If you're a doofus, I'm going to tell you you're a doofus. That doesn't mean we cant still be friends, and that doesn't mean I'm going to give you bad info.
If an F&D rifle isn't right for you, then I will tell you to go buy something else. I wont sit there and try to convince you to buy my product.
You go look at the info on my website, you go look at competitors products, you do the comparison... keep me out of it until absolutely necessary.

Look, if you guys are buying high-end rifles, then you need to be mature enough to respect my work and the way in which I do my work.
More importantly you need to respect the rifle, regardless of whether it comes from F&D or any competitors.
If you are not respecting the rifle, and the amount of work that goes into it, then you do NOT need to be an F&D customer.
Instead, go deal with a manufacturer who will hold your hand and tell you only what you want to hear, there are plenty who will do it.
But there are only few who will be real with you.

"I have done this... Me... Me... Me..." but you're not remotely narcissistic, lol. There's a difference between being "real" and just being an ass. And as a customer I'm used to a concept which escapes you... It's called "Customer Service".

And for those that find Corby course well a better description would be brutally honest with no sugar coating! The guy is straight up truthful with no punches pulled. I have been in his shop and the guy works his ass off and knows his shit. He is not some guy pointing his finger at a bunch of worker bees mass producing a product, he does it all himself. And one point that has not been brought up is Corby talks the talk and walks the walk, he can backup what he says...

So that entitles someone to be an ass that badmouths other companies, smiths, and customers?
 
i actually have a f@d 308 and would love to have a 338. While it took 6 months longer than initally told it was well worth the wait. ive only had time to shoot it a few times but it is a beautiful gun. its very smooth and well balanced. i always emailed Corby and got a response. after having a small problem with the rifle he has contacted me twice offering to pay to have the rifle sent back and fixed. turned out to be a easy fix i did myself and a mag issue. as a small business owner myself i understand he doesnt have time for BS calls or chit chat. while some call are serious im sure he deals with 100's that arent. bottom line, i have no regretts or problems with my purchase. rifle#38.
 
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